♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> a right good evening everyone. i'm the executive director of the nonprofit program is independent feminist bookstore , were located in decatur, georgia. we've launched the hormone that dominates and divides us just in the united states today. join in conversation doctor

madison horwitz is a cardiologist evolution biologist harvard university department it human evolutionary biology at ucla division of cardiology but she's the author of she is the current president of the international society of medicine and public health and recently launched a research initiative which focuses on the interdependent health of women and the planet we share. here tonight to learn about the undergraduate studies the department of human evolutionary biology at harvard university. she earned her phd at harvard, setting testosterone is taught there ever since. numerous teaching awards on behavior class with the harvard top ten tried and true. esteemed a company this

evening and treasure into book as i am. reframe tonight conversation. feminist institution is to stay in heart and complex conversation. to assume and seek to provide clear information of choices about our bodies and our communities. the most marginalized among us. who possesses the power to shape narratives and therefore to shape the policies. we are living in an era of being actively recruited especially children, doctors, parents, teachers are trying to help them. this other times when science was recruited and often still is. justify further supremacy.

the advocates teach us often a double edge sword for people who try to deviate from the standard line on the bell curve. talk about power and human desire. she argues in her book is useful for all of us in our world. but we do with it is up to us. i'm personally invested in this conversation i'm a transgender man and a diabetic. i'm not on one but two life-sustaining to help me live a happy, healthy, and well-balanced life. they are respected by doctors and not regard the theoretical abstraction or problems to be solved. but rather as part of the biological universe. but i preached about doctor hoven's book this biology does not have to be destiny.

consequences are obviously devastating for so many of us. we have a responsibility to understand biology in terms of our world and behavior it's important to remember for all of us worried about how the data might be interpreted to do with harm. that division is hard, she acknowledges herself crucially important with the true diversity of human life and experience nursing the research is important for all people on healthier world. >> please welcome welcome.

>> we that was a really moving i appreciate so much that really is what i was trying to do in my book, testosterone. i'm going to tell the audience it is normal i found that really moving it may be emotional and i started to tear up. i might do that again, do not be alarmed. i'm so happy to be with my friend and colleague barb thank you so much. >> we had found the introduction to be inspiring. i cannot think of the last

time and connection to interactions a thank you for that and having us here tonight. i just really want to start by congratulating scientifically impeccable and important book. it's yesterday's wall street journal why he wrote this book shaken who we are pre- >> so little background and professional personal. i'm gonna start with that.

ours sins are sometimes very nervous about how they're going to get where they want to go because of the bottom my high school class. i'm certain to tear up again. did not have a lot of parental oversight and a bit of a hard time and a lot of different ways. that planted the seed there

not to be true among some fellow academics took me a long time to get to where i am a bunch of and turns in a whole other career decide ultimately to apply to the harvard graduate program. to look at wild chimpanzees and we did that there was this confluence of circumstances where this is in the late '90s some pretty serious political upheaval in that region of africa i was in.

there is a lot of violence all around me, very severe, disturbing violence. as also following the chimps around. there was this really sort of -- what i was struck by was the uncanny parallels with the behavior of the chimps. i was pretty naïve when i observed was very clear up there were chimps there take care of their kids and much will the males could also be nurturing and the females could be quite aggressive on average there's a lot of

overlap in the chimps that solidified my interest in understanding the origins of human differences. i became an interest in the role of testosterone between males and females, testosterone evolution how those forces shape who we are. and how those on on the environment and how we can explain who we are how the expression of differences differ across cultures. how they connect shape our expression of our human natures. will bit longer story on his

phd research, testosterone and differences. ended up not having a lab and doing research. that's really where my passion is. and i stayed at harvard. my trajectory here one thing to do so well for students here. with testosterone and other hormones the behavior. they're encountering resistance, pushback or even

rejection what that rejection is what the landscape looks like on the role of testosterone in behavior. maybe offer understanding about concern connecting biology behavior. >> 's are really important question. i can pick up where i left off with they started the research and find results about shapes differences think and understand the world and problem solve. there are differences we don't totally understand why. biology also seems to have something to do with it. i was naïve how controversial

these topics are literally coming out of the jungle i did not have an appreciation the intensity of the interaction between biology and culture. that took some time to appreciate and understand. that is an ongoing process to learn more and more about those is always an interaction between genes will start to feel foot pushback the

difference in the levels of testosterone and the evolutionary pressures pretextual sexual the act differently on mail and female animals. to facilitate reproduction and different ways in males and females. we have different problems we have to solved to reproduce, female mammals have internal gestation and lactation. we are going to be smaller animals on average. males do not have internal gestation. they typically need to compute two female mating opportunities but they need to have more muscle and less about to produce their maximum number of offspring. the difference in the hormones help to adaptations. nurturing behavior less for human females and females of other species.

for males in the larger body size, more physical aggression and more of an obsession with status on average. cannot think all females are like this, all males are like that, that is not the case for there's lots of overlap we are talking about. so to me, this was such a satisfying and powerful way to understand human behavior. and the patterns of human behavior that i done a whole lot of traveling, mostly by myself with a backpack to all kinds of different cultures. i could beast, obsessed with the differences and the commonalities and how they connected to what i had seen in the chimps and nonhuman animals. i did not at first realize where this was coming from. people seem to have this

almost innate preference for cultural explanations and a hostility towards a biological explanations. i felt so empowered, science and change so much of help me understand myself, but i have observed in the jungle et cetera. that was really an education for me. >> john but explanations that are singularly cultural. the combination of both pre- >> there is a continuum there people who are serious scholars who are very smart first differences in behavior. sometimes four bodies which is confusing to me. there are people who just really want to assert differences and behaviors in

humans are purely the result of cultural influences. then i think the movement that gets more attention is taken seriously is an effort to consistently downplay biological explanation in favor of cultural ones. there's a whole bunch of reasons i understand there is that effort. but my point of view, what we should be concerned with is the truth and how to discover the truth. power is always a part of science. there is a value to being critical about the methods we use in science. there is also power why think it really comes into play is how the facts of science can be used to support social

agendas what could be perceived as or are nefarious purposes. we should be careful in how we produce the science and to my view should be strict social agendas. we need to understand how the world works. thinking about the implications of the science that we produce. what the implications are and how we can think clearly about those implications and logical ways and not for instance assume a difference in a cognitive ability doesn't mean it's not writer can't change is no evidence to support that like diabetes, is something

that is a genetic type one and type two some people are much more prone to diabetes but we know the environment plays a huge role. that is just an analogy there. it is the same way with behavior. men have a different predisposition than women for behavior. it is the environment, the consequences of that behavior. we went to focus our judgment on behavior and consequences. not the causes for the causes would be understanding behavior using that information to address the problematic behavior and do what we can to improve it,. >> the fear should be directed at the missed application.

there is no question there is so much evidence of how that was taken and used. and many, many areas. it is an evidence-based approach to understanding the role of hormones and behavior. you can whip up a primer, 101 of testosterone from conception through let's say puberty will still be on the same page but. >> first of all i should say, i alluded to this before the hormones are steroids first of all that is important.

some hormones like insulin are proteins and some are steroids. the cool thing about steroids, they can cross through cell membranes. so estrogen, testosterone, it all gets into our brain we produce them mostly in her ovaries and testes, and for women the adrenal gland is an important piece of production. those hormones are getting into our brains and shaping behavior. that is clear in human and nonhuman animals. as important effects on the body and behavior, ultimately those hormones are there not because they help us survive insolent and regular eating blood sugars i want to use insulin as an example really quickly that is the hormone that acts in the body to

regulate energy and regulate blood sugar. what it does is it coordinates behavior with the energetic needs of the body. it signals to the brain, it can get into the brain but uses a different active transport. get to spend energy to get into the brain. that tells lee brandt essentially with the energy needs of the body are in fact hunger to go find food. let's get up and find a food because we have enough blood sugar and your body. there is a coordination on the behaviors the body has to engage in to stay alive and maintain energy levels. these hormones do something very similar but for reproduction not for maintaining energy but for producing eggs and sperm.

exposure for the female our offspring. to compete for mating opportunities. when the hormones coordinate the availability of the eggs and sperm, the physical trait wing to engage in nurturing and competition. in acts in the brain to motivate the individuals to use those to have so good to have muscles and lactation if you don't have motivation to use those muscles or use those breasts to feature offspring. the hormones to all of these different things by affecting the way energy is spent in the body on muscle, or fat, or egg production et cetera. that all starts with males in utero. so females don't actually need

their ovaries to be producing estrogen to develop their reproductive anatomy don't do anything special to the brain. but males typically in humans and other animals have very high the testes in utero in humans and other animals very high levels of testosterone that masculinized as reproductive structures. eventually grow the and internal plumbing is set in utero. during that same period testosterone also acts in the marine to masking allies certain structures so for instance young mail animals including boys engage in higher acts of rough-and-tumble play seems to be practiced males engage in like humans, chimpanzees, rats and so many other animals mail

animals play more directly than the girl it seems to be practice for status competition. scientists have determined how testosterone levels in utero can shape the brain to promote that kind of mail typical behavior in utero. it starts in utero when testosterone shapes the body and the brain for mail reproduction. then, after birth testosterone was up again we are not exactly sure why. stays high for about three months. and then it stays low until prior to puberty. then it goes up again, you know a lot about that that is what your most recent book was about. there's a lot of changes that happen in the body and again in the brain during puberty that convert a little boy into a reproductively viable adult.

>> same thing for young women wearing adolescents, help them to become reproductive auteur. >> what about shaping temperament, aggressiveness, there are studies i spent a lot of time in other species. and then. [inaudible] i've been environment the maternal environment their temperaments are going to be different. >> that is totally correct

about the spotted hyena's but don't know about the ground squirrels about the males did, right? i don't know. >> and experimental conditions , the point is the female brain can be by androgens. so generally there is extremely low testosterone so other derivatives of testosterone that might be active as we talk about later. in humans and most other mammals the testosterone levels in females are very low. it's extremely sensitive to elevations there is a condition called congenital adrenal which the adrenal

gland is missing a particular enzyme enables it to produce cortisol. if it does not have that enzyme and cannot produce cortisol is over stimulated and produces androgens. they act on the female brain and utero in ways that result in higher level of mail typical behavior. that is true in humans and nonhuman animals. we know it is an extremely. differentiating humans and nonhuman animals. what's interesting for typical female behavior something like sexual behavior and aggressive behavior very strongly differentiated much more strongly than in humans.

the research is not the same in humans because our behaviors not with so much overlap and aggressive behavior. in females deviate from what is typical and increased we have some masculinization that persists into adulthood. even though it's corrected at birth and they are normalized at birth. i should just mention the reproductive anatomy that can sometimes resemble a. it is the genitalia and the knowledge of the masking allies genitalia is responsible for the masculinization of behavior.

that runs counter to all of the we do not have a good explanation as to why change their clitoral into something that is more typical and there is no value judgment they are, there's a big controversy about whether you should surgically alter genitalia that are atypical. even with girls who have the surgery the argue is there so much tension with their genitalia their behavior becomes masking allies. the simplest way to understand the evidence is big we at husky of all this other evidence that shows very clearly intrude increased increase behavior. so in females, if they

typically don't have antigens in utero, they will express typical female behavior when exposed to estrogen in adolescents. and males, to shoot typical mail behavior need to have that exposure and need to have levels to high levels of testosterone to show typical mail behavior. >> to what extent, engaging in rough and tumble, typically mail behavior, to what extent does that actually create a hormonal response? >> that is an interesting question. there is probably no effect. the testosterone levels are so low at that point they are not responsive to what's going on behaviorally. i like the question because it illustrates that really important relationship we have

seen during and after adolescence. we really only see this in males. it's the behavior and social environment in particular generally in the moments, which would be considered would be meeting competition the reaction to that competition testosterone goes up or down the predict the condition, that are adapted for the individual in a given environment giffin personality and social system. >> so since were talking about

developmentally made a little bit of a conversation about maybe lockers or more and more young people we share about the work? >> for the book, i really dove into the scientific literature on puberty blockers and effects of altering testosterone levels as part of a gender transition. and so i have, i note the scientific literature is a non- binary person who'd

started taking puberty blockers and someone had transitioned a female to mail back to female. and so i was there words to describe their experience. and interestingly their experiences were very consistent with what the scientific literature had to say. the puberty blockers are so controversial and heated. my perspective on it, we need a way more research. we should just say that you exclude the -- the trench and certainly by any person i spoke with were very happy, very, very happy with their transition.

she went through a mail puberty she is 6-foot 4 inches she is a large woman she went through typical mail. high levels of testosterone. she wishes perhaps she worked quite so tall something it's difficult for her she's doing voice therapy. think she would prefer not to have that masculine sounding voice when she has a female identity. the issue with blockers is completely understandable. someone who is a gender dysphoria, who wishes to transition, the worst thing that can happen is to develop the physical and perhaps psychological traits that is not the effects and transects

you feel yourself to be. i just want to start out by saying, i understand the intense desire to put a halt to that on the really good science on the outcomes physically and emotionally. it's a controversial area because people want to be validated. some people who want to be validated are young kids. it is true that a gender can be fluid at that age they change their identity in various ways i do know the evidence and opportunity for people to come in might be gay

they felt felt very different again as completely valid and understandable for people to block that phase. i think that is right for some people i don't how he figure out of those people are. that can be the right choice. i wish we had more evidence in the long-term outcome. it's fine losing my fertility that is my biggest if you don't allow your own reproductive system to sexually auteur you lose the ability to have kids in the future that is a huge decision for young person to make.

at the same time it can be tremendously painful for the kid to go through puberty. i don't have the answers there. i think this should be a lot more attention paid to the long-term outcomes. >> i appreciate what you wrote about her again going back to the data relating out a basic understanding very complicated from a scientific perspective. you alert the reader to the perils again someone with the aggressive agenda. my goal is to give people all the evidence all the evidence

that is available to help them make really difficult decisions? to give them what they need and respect their ability and autonomy to make those decisions. >> you can move from one totally noncontroversial topic to another. here is a way of thinking about topic that it rooted in science and generative. >> thank you. this is an area i do get comments difficult to talk about.

because people like laurel hubbard who is a trans woman who is competing in the olympics and powerlifting is not breaking any rules. i find this very painful. people called her cheater she is not a cheater print is not cheating that she happens, she does have a physical advantage trey daerr typical mail puberty i do know she herself has an advantage. trans women who went through mail puberty will tend to be bigger and stronger. even if they since suppress their testosterone for up to eight years as a data we have. they tend not to lose the size and strength of course the size of benefits in terms of

height and bone strength do not diminish muscle mass goes down does not go anywhere down to what is typical for a female. other physical advantages, however first of all the important human rights that deserves to be heard. it is extremely important. sorry. this is just really emotional because i really do see the signs as providing one set of information by what is upsetting people are arguing about the science and are not listening we have to understand where the trans women are coming from. what it is like to identify as a woman, love your sport and

not be able to play in the women's category and be called a cheater. that is wrong. i do get annoyed when people try to twist the science to push the agenda people like laura hubbard. she should be able to compete on the women's team that causes people who might otherwise listen to your case, it causes them to shut down i'm feeling you are not telling me the truth. i know you're up to something, you're twisting the science and trying to pull one over on me. i don't get is a good strategy. we can grant these science points there is on average an advantage. but let's now focus our energy compassionately and with respect to the case of trans women who have been given the right to compete, for now, in the female category.

what do we do about that? if there is a physical advantage on average is there a way for us to somehow equalize that? we need to have the conversation and not stigmatize trans women who want to do what they love it. it bothers me so much it is painful for a lot of people. i am not happy about how the conversation is going or not going as it may be. >> and components of physicality individual ability, depending on what the sports are in the idea of dividing by, it is complicated. there is contradiction in the world of sports. does that even exist?

>> wellborn we are. there is a reason there are mail and female categories. but within that there's a huge amount of variations not all due to hard work. >> going back to work as a teacher i'm someone who spends a lot of time with young people we both teach students who are 18 -- 22. they are in many cases they are figure out who they are and all kinds of ways. i wonder how you think about the testosterone as parents. >> so i have a 12-year-old son, griffin. he is sick of hearing about testosterone.

i feel strongly he feels he should understand what is going to be doing to his and this is why think the information is tremendously useful. might assume girls are young women, i'm not sure with the be called in a couple of years, and they probably are not on average. they have different desires. it's important to understand how that works. it is not just because of culture. it's part of our nation. i want him to be sensitive to that and be aware how to be a great respectful person which i'm pretty sure he's going to be. testosterone will change him in ways in one hand to be prepared for. what was the other part?

[inaudible] who are can turn too. >> that is easy. they are awesome they are figuring out the world are figuring out themselves they are so curious. i am just open with them. i will do them kind of what i am doing here. if they disagree, i'd love it. i one thing to disagree than i want to figure out why a look at the evidence together. maybe they don't agree with my interpretation of the evidence, let's dig into it. it is so satisfying and i learned so much, they learn so much. the big thing for me is critical thinking. it's not just telling them how the world is it saying here is the evidence and what do you think? what are you bringing to me?

how does that bear on how we understand this? list of the best job we can using the tools of science to understand the world. but also with the implications are, how to think about it? what is it mean? what is it mean for our lives? they love that and they have a journey throughout my classes. i have a journey with them. i know you have similar experiences. they are just so open minded and curious and wonderful. i feel so incredibly lucky. trucks it was a toxic and a sense of felt like bad evolutionary psychology. it was disturbing is about sexual coercion.

>> however the professor was and that class, the bigger piece of advice which is the formation of the book look at the evidence go to the data go to the science. that is for the answers will be. they are incomplete. tell about that? >> i just think it will be helpful. i know what it is like to want something to be true. i know for certain explanation to feel invalidating. i. about this in the book i think it was my second year in graduate school i had major and i still do, or reading a paper and discussing it on the evolution of a rape in the

scorpion fly pretty cannot even say this with a straight face. the implication that was stated explicitly by the author is that males evolve to be larger than female and humans so basically they cannot attain the resources they need to attract a female they would just pin them down and raped them like the scorpion fly does. i had a history of sexual assaults. i was doing exactly what i'm doing now in that class. i was shaking, i was hurt, and felt small. was a mail instructor. i said the skies and hole. cannot be true he's an acyl for eating right even writing this paper point is, first of all the professor just told me too focus on the argument,

look at the data focus on the argument. i realize to do as a scientist and eventually i did. i found that really empowering that i could analyze this hypothesis. it could be right. the guy could be an acyl but that's a separate point. the hypothesis could be correct. i really want to understand it. when i want to be the case what seems right necklace over here it's important it's empowering and whether he should have written the paper that is a lesson that i share with my students every year. i tried to remember why think

this has to be wrong, but i got to put that aside and evaluate the evidence. >> a couple things about that, and described in this species is not necessarily generalizable. until broadly that can be applied. that is not reproductive all of this information. i snap the science is the misapplication of the overgeneralization.

opportunity to use biology form of the past wars and misuses absolutely. it is possible. as a thousand conversations with you and all other kinds is conversations they've had about that it is rooted in evidence. turn lights on and promote

excellent thinking congratulations again i'm in a pass it on. i want to let folks know, doctor madison horwitz wheat referenced earlier also available i put that link in the chat. if you are interested the connection between human and animal adolescents, check that out it's a really cool book. the other book is currently backordered that means it is popular. will keep trying in the bottom of your screen when you buy your books from us. just click that button.

went to see if there any other projects or things there's any parts you truly want people to know about. >> there is. safari had a very chill audience i think barb is too. >> i think my main question always comes back to the michael phelps. the human variation in sports. sports is a particular design for genetic. the curve and distribution

with people who have variation that's why i struggled to get my head around that. it seems to me had higher levels of testosterone than typical for a woman much like michael phelps and giant flipper hands are a difference in nature i think part of the problem thinking through some of these issues with the scientists via journalism and

your view for so many different views whether sports should be segregated in the first place. my only contribution hears first of all the changes that happened in mail puberty and how those strengths changes. first of all if you just look at males and females there is no contest. in most sports that females would never have a chance at the elite level in almost every sport. not counting golfing, archery and some others, auto racing for instance. the elite females even in the olympics, can be beaten by high school boy, it's a

variation it is on a totally different level. that is thinking about differences. then then transit women what those advantages loss with testosterone suppression. not a lot. they will retain a lot of those very significant advantages to an other extent and arm span which is on a spectrum basically not on a real qualitative difference like you would get between males and females. the case with peoples of different development this is where things get controversial in the language becomes very important. here i don't like to step into

it because i do not like to define, i want to respect the way people self identify. in most of these cases in the cases that come up in the news the people who are described as a women with naturally high testosterone typically have x why chromosomes and testing that have gone through a high testosterone puberty typical mail puberty. that complicates the issue on the popular press describe it in a very different way that is confusing. but it's tough because you really want to respect people's identities. within your making policy that should be informed by science this report of the conversation we should be dealing with. the facts there people are just reading the "new york times" or guardian think this is to like michael phelps at the woman has a high testosterone. it's not quite that simple.

i would not want to weigh in here on what to do other than to say if we are going to be having that conversation should be informed, should be done with sensitivity and compassion but with facts. >> if people are really interested in this and want to find good data themselves, where do you recommend people go? [laughter] >> my book. [laughter] >> very up-to-date about all of this stuff. >> the bibliography in your citations are current and robust. these are the notes. it is a very well cited welton research rigorous also with stories.

it is a narrative. on the my own personal stories. is my goal one of the facts here and how can we work with the facts but be as sensitive and caring as possible. i am super passionate about the goals i think you probably are. which is reducing suffering especially for people who are suffering the most. that is the ultimate goal and that is my goal. the way to do that is through knowledge to use knowledge. i think it is never a good idea to misrepresent the facts and it is disrespectful to people in my view. >> we do have an audience question. would you have any suggestions or rules of thumb for sexual relationships? relationships across gender

perhaps between men and women? >> i do and i just wrote about this actually for a uk magazine i talked about in the boston globe. this was tough. i described being married and you can see of already cried three times, i am very emotional. that is hard for me actually it's embarrassing but i cannot control it. my husband is a british philosopher barb knows, he is very, very stable. you don't know what's going on, he does not know it's going on, the just not stuff going on in there according to him. i'm constantly pestering him what is wrong with you? because you are british what are you thinking? think about philosophy and think about nothing right now what are you even talking

about? we had therapy it did not change. i changed after writing this book the big thing was the transit people i interviewed. they change their emotional expression. i don't know if you had the same experience here. you went from someone who is really in touch with your emotions to someone who does not have the same range of emotions. that is what i learned. that helped her marriage. some feminist viewpoint i guess, he is a great person.

i was not accepting i thought he should be more like me. what is the matter with you? >> i was a part of the reason i am more open to science now is because i experienced changes. i am very clear that my brain operates very differently than it did before and after i medically transition. >> different now? >> my brain with estrogen dominant i can hold 20 threads of information all at once. [laughter] women tend to be more anxious. and now my brain is more like a two lane road. i feel less smart. you do the thing in front of you than do the next thing and the next thing.

capacity to hold multiple threads for me really shifted very. >> cute do more short-term goal oriented? >> yes. i'm an emotional and thoughtful person. the way my brain organize information literally took information in has shifted. that communication style shifted. that has been the biggest shift to me. i would also recommend i'll put in the chat called the crying book.

>> i've been looking and looking in one end of the continuing therapy this just not a lot of literature and being really extreme. >> it is a memoir but it -- is called the book of tears. it is about being a woman who has a lot of shame of being what she considers a hyper crier. you should read it. >> thank you. >> definitely recommend it. i just want to make sure if you have any other rules about cross communication. [inaudible] [laughter] >> i think it is so fascinating when i was

practicing medicine when patients were on blockers for example it was a decade ago. i was not hearing it in the context of this conversation was fascinating. it makes so much sense. again i think about the ways in which hormone in the brain that relationship with the press people surgeons and after us and all of that. that was a non- scientific progressive piece of history. snow in are doing is having different kind of conversation. >> we can and on that note.

>> again, please buy this book we get the link at the bottom of your screen print thank you so much, really appreciate your candor and the thought behind the book. i wish you both well and help the rest of your tour is great. >> thank you so much as a great pleasure to meet you, thank you to your audience this is great. thank you barb. >> this is great yes. it is a fantastic book i am so impressed and it is important. i'm teaching harvard summer school was talking all about your book. >> thank you so much for. >> have a great night. >> you are watching book tb. for complete television schedule visit booktv.org. you can also follow along

behind the scenes on social media a book on twitter, instagram, and facebook. steven cohen of former undersecretary for science at the department of energy during the obama administration argued that climate science is not settled. here's a portion of that conversation with. >> about 2005 up until the time i left the government in 2012 i was working to develop and demonstrate emissions technologies of various kinds. i was asked by an american physical society which is the professional society that represents 50000 physicist to have a refresh of the statement on climate change. 2007 they issued a statement to great controversy because that use the word incontrovertible. that is a red flag.

2000 there was at the statement. i thought of the society with that you and says i said heck we are physicist which have a deeper look at the issue. i convened a workshop five physicist that were not climate experts sat and listened to consensus scientists. i think all of them in one way or the other. skeptical scientists presentations and we talked for a day or so. mystic gosh there are a lot here to do not understand. some of that very important to know that we didn't know. i was also surprised by how i have not heard about those shortfalls in the time i've

been studying the matter. as a reservation about the substance but also a clip poorly it had communicated to the littlest public. >> watch the rest of the program a booktv.org. use the search box at the top of the page with the title of his book unsettled. >> i am amanda director of adult education here in washington d.c. at the international spy museum, really glad you are here with us today. spy museum historian and curator andrew hammond will be talking with aunt about her new book sleeper agent, the atomic spy in america who got away. pretty awesome book, andrew was excited to ask her questions about george cabal the spy in the n