virtual and we powered a new reality because at mediacom we are built to keep you ahead. >> mediacom along with these television companies support c-span2 as a public service. >> good evening. i'm alan price, director of the john f. kennedy presidential library and museum. on behalf of all my library and foundational college i'm delighted to welcome all of you for watching tonight program online. thank you for joining us this evening. i would like to acknowledge the generous support of the underwriters for the kennedy library forum lead sponsors bank of america, the lowell institute and at&t. after media sponsors, "boston globe," w dnr. education public program on civil rights, social justice, are supported in part by at&t. we look for to a robust like inn answer period the seating. it will be instructions on

screen for some your questions on email or comments our youtube page going to program. we're so grateful to have this timely opportunity to explore robert f kennedy's work in legacy with our distinguished guests the seating and i'm delighted to introduce tonight speakers. i am pleased to extend a warm virtual welcome back to the library to patricia sullivan, the william arthur second professor of history at the university of south carolina. she is author author and editor of books including lift every voice, the naacp, and the making of the civil rights movement. days of hope, rays and the moxie and you'll era, and freedom rider, virginia foster f, letters from the civil rights era. her new book is justice rising -- "justice rising: robert kennedy's america in black and white." i'm also pleased to welcome back

our moderator for the sequence discussion, kenneth mack is the inaugural lawrence hill professor of law and affiliate professor of history at harvard university. his research and teaching a focus on american legal and constitutional history with a particular emphasis on race relations, politics and economic life. he is the author of representing the rich, the creation of the civil rights lawyer, and coeditor of the new black, , wht has changed and what is not with race in america. welcome back to both of you. thank you for joining us this evening. >> thank you, alan. it is a pleasure to be here with my old friend patricia sullivan come to talk about her amazing book justice rising -- "justice rising: robert kennedy's america in black and white." >> such as for the viewers professor sullivan and i will

have the conversation for about, until about 7:00. as director price just to mention you can submit questions. questions. there should be instructions on the screen and about 7:00 so we will transition over to q&a. >> great. >> so let's get started. pat, i'd like to just start with the origins of this book, a book about bobby kennedy and civil rights. for most of your korea been a history of the civil rights movement was written about grassroots activists who are mostly overlooked, individuals like the civil rights lawyer sam houston, something right activists, organizations like the naacp. so bobby kennedy, maybe a bit of an unusual topic but maybe it

follows from what you've written before. what drew you to write a book about somebody who is hardly been overlooked, bobby kennedy, and what did you hope to accomplish when you started this project? >> thanks. it's great to be with you virtually and to be at the library, thank thank you,, for organized this event. i didn't start out to write a book about bobby kennedy. it was the furthest thing from a mine but the book project sort of grew -- [inaudible] covering generations who'd been in the struggle for racial justice and civil rights since the reconstruction era. my last book on the naacp which spanned from 1910 up to about 1960 come really opened up the national framework of social justice and civil rights. it was an amazing project to

work on and showed just the dynamic across several generations, the struggle to realize the constitutional guarantees in the 14th and 15th amendments, and the sorts of activities people, you mentioned charles hermiston, the communities, of the race in which struggles for full citizenship intersected with national development, the new deal, world war ii, and a black migration during these decades is reshaping the racial landscape of the united states. and segregation is becoming more deeply entrenched in northern and western states. so by the time i got to the end of it it was, the decision really accelerated itself to the south. you had to sit in in the 1960s. i wanted to take a fresh look at the 1960s because it's a

national issue. it struggles around the country and we tend to look at the south and then we look at urban issues after 1964. i started reading, wrote a book proposal and robert kennedy would pop up in each situation. my literary agent said you keep mentioning bobby kennedy, write a book about him. i realized when i look at robert kennedy to the context of the racial struggles and transformations of the 1960s that would allow me to explore, to really disrupt what we think we know and look at the larger context of racial change during that decade. and at the same time i got to

know about him in ways that really i had no idea and i really think this aspect of his public life which was really central i think i've been largely overlooked. so i sort of came into it and it's been an amazing journey which i have learned quite a bit. >> it's interesting, the book -- [inaudible] and bobby kennedy are a snapshot of the '60s and you write this to the view of bobby kennedy. ..

>> you started this project and what remained to be said about that? >> great question. you know, the prevailing views were-- it doesn't seem as simple. the attorney general. people thought he didn't do enough or did this wrong and it was kind of-- it wasn't integrated into the context of african-american struggle and civil rights activities and then also the challenges in urban areas that really become evident in the early 50's and '60s and people like that. so, he really was on the margin, on the margins of much of the work done in the civil rights movement and that in the way that always great work that had been done, but as i tell my students, you know, what you find in the past is dependent on the questions you ask. and i was asking different

kinds of questions and, the biography is classic, terrific, a number of other biographies, a learned a lot from. but, again, they looked at his life in a different kind of context and now that the book is done, i'm kind of surprised by what all of us sort of missed. i mean, i missed. i've been working on 20th century american history, but again you say grass roots and different dimensions. so, it really is a fresh take and surprisingly changes. >> this is a book about a journey. it's about america's journey through the 1960's, bobby kennedy's journey through the 1960's, so i just wanted to, you know, just tell the reader

a little about what that journey is like. you know, where does bobby kennedy and america begin at the beginning of the story, and the america involved and where does the story end up? what do you learn from this journey? ments well, i'll try to keep this brief. well, when i started out, when i realized-- i really didn't know how the book would turn out, but i realized he was significant in ways that had not been explored yet and so -- and i knew certain aspects of what he did and how he was engaged as an attorney general, as his brother's advisor, as a senator, as a presidential candidate, it just highlights that pointed towards the richness of the story i was exploring. but i began by -- so i realized that he was a major force.

he was aligned-- i mean, the civil rights movement created a demand, with the sit-ins and the mass protests of 1960's. and robert kennedy and his brother, the president, not only did they respond to the demand which was urgent, but they responded to the opportunities created by the demand. so the question is, what prepared robert kennedy to see and to act in a way that broke away from traditional politics and public leadership so i spent a -- the kennedy library was my home for this and the resources there are enormously rich. and so i did some background research on his life up to 1960. and there are characteristics about him, he's compassionate. he had a questioning spirit. you know, there are things

about him that made him open and he sort of told the truth. and that, by the time we get to -- and one incident early on which was really interesting to me when he was a student at university of virginia, he was the head of the legal forum, and in 1951, when he was third year law student, i invited ralph to come to see, he had won a nobel peace prize, noted activist, a remarkable human being and he said he would come, but only if the meeting was segregated. and laws in virginia, meetings had to be segregated. and he thought that was ridiculous, fought world war ii and aware of the court decisions as naacp and so he

about pushed and talked with the student and faculty and they agreed to have a nonsegregated meeting. from all i can tell, the first meeting of that kind, public, nonsegregated meeting on that campus. 1500 people came and that wasn't an epiphany, after that his first daughter was born, a young married couple and you know, by the time he got to 19-- and the '50's are interesting, what's happening in the african-american struggles, mrs. brown, king, malcolm x. things are moving up, and white people are moving in a parallel base. 1960 the campaign is a pivot point because-- [inaudible] i go sites mass protests, and

also ignites youth activism, sort of breaking through the cold war climate apathy. and 1960 when john kennedy ran, by that time there was black migration, the black vote in the north was pivotal. they had the importance of trying to figure out how to get the black vote, take the south and the country in turmoil, in a positive way and all the energy coming from. and i'll try to speed up, we just got to 1960, but i guess looking at when he comes into even in that year in 1960, there's evidence of him looking at urban areas. and he wants to win, and he has a campaign manager, by the time he's a campaign manager he's ready to see and he's not evolved or developed, to see

the complexity and depth of the problem as he moves to the '60s, but he's oriented towards race and discrimination as a major-- the major crisis facing the country domestically, as attorney general he responds, there's an amazing justice department, amazing is the wrong word. hires brilliant lawyers and they quadruple the number of lawyers in civil rights division and how tough it's going to be like today, southern governors and local officials to define the law, tolerating, even condoning violence. and alabama after the freedom rides talking about the governor and other public officials, those fellows are at war with this country. so it's not an easy road.

maybe i should stop there, but as it goes on, you know,s' also looking north. let me just mention one thing because this sits in the core throughout the book. in the spring of 1961 he's got a meeting in new york, an interview, and he walks up to east harlem and has a private, not publicized meeting with three different gangs and he's trying to look at the problems of juvenile delinquency not just as identity of young people, but the problem of young people living in poverty and with poor schools and all, and you know, how to respond to that and he begins organizing some community programs to provide support, the recreation, the job training and the rest. so, he says, a double vision, if you say, that's the south

and that movement is very much in the national spotlight, and what is -- what urban areas are like with this growing up over several decades and writing about that and -- so long answer. this is great. matter, i want to pick up on something you just said, you said that, you know, fairly early on in 1961, kennedy is thinking about what we might call entrenched racial inequality, and thinking about racial problems in the north. and, of course, this book just rising and appearing at this moment that we're in, where there's this large debate in the u.s. and across the world about things like how entrenched is racial inequality? what should we do about it?

what are some perspectives of people of color and african-americans in the struggle against it. should black people be at the center of the struggle? should it be interracial. so you're describing kennedy being at the center of a, you know, an analogous moment, a different moment, but analogous moment in the 1960's. but i want to start with the story, you almost start the book with the famous meeting between kennedy and a number of african-american figures, famously james baldwin, lorraine hansbury, a bunch of other people in new york. describe that meeting for our listeners and you know, what happens? what does kennedy learn from it? and why did you choose that as the opening thing that frame the work book? >> you know, that was one of

the things that draw me to look deeper. the meeting occurs in may of 1963, may 24th, i think. and that month, i mean, the birmingham crisis, birmingham exploded and protests exploded across the country after people saw turning dogs and fire hoses on protesters. and things were fever pitch. and the administration began to work op legislation. and nobody to get through, we've got to move, got to do something. in the heat of this and getting ready for a showdown with george wallace. so it's a really intense period for several weeks and dick gregory recommended the book marshal, the attorney general -- baldwin and robert kennedy meet and so they had met at the white house at a reception and

baldwin -- he and bobby met, they talked and they said they should talk again, but life happens, things move on so it's about a year later and there were men in washington, but et cetera. and the next day in new york, and james baldwin calls people and he had, you know, his recollection of this meeting, he felt that, you know, kennedy was -- he was unlike most politicians and public figures baldwin had interacted with, but he felt he needed to really know, you know, how things were in the north. kennedy went to the meeting thinking that he'd get some advice or insight how to deal with problems in the urban north. it wasn't just a law and-- there was entrenched segregation at all that came with that.

so he goes to the meeting and his intention is to kind of let them know the kind of political challenges that the kennedy administration faces and they were real. sort of like today, you have this congress, and people gather. of course-- baldwin had no agenda, he expected to be there and they would just talk. and one of the people at this meeting was a 23-year-old civil rights from louisiana been in the movement with the sit-in. he had been beaten, gone through horrible, just what people went down there and he was on the front line, he had a broken jaw and injuries that he endured so he's sitting in this meeting and they start to give

statistics and things rolling along and he's like wait a minute, and said, it makes me sick to be in this room having to even talk-- and he just, you know, calls kennedy out, you haven't done enough and kennedy looks to the others thinking -- and no, he's a person you should listen to. he's the one that comes from the battle and the thing is just so -- what it showed and his communication gap, right? and then there's this young person who really bore, i mean, he carries the wounds of the whole thing. and so it went on for three hours and kennedy tried to answer and, you know, and just told all the things that the federal government had done or failed to do and it was a litany and that everybody, you know, got in and there's no real transcript, but i put it together from recollections people had of the meeting.

the gist is kennedy sat silently and at one point, she said to him, she didn't think he got it and it was just a total -- baldwin describes this when white and black come together there's this and she says if you don't get it, we're in trouble because you and your brother are the best of what america has to offer. and the statement. and apparently that goes for three hours and then they said, okay, they're saying, we're done and the people, they leave, and there he is. and so how people -- and everybody was shook up by the meeting. it was very -- the most violent and verbal he'd ever been, so that happened then and people say that that changed kennedy.

i mean, marshall said it did not. by 1963 he knew things were awful and he now that -- he knew all that, right? but it's just startled him and emotionally. there was a point when baldwin says, would you serve, no, why would i fight this country and go to mississippi and kennedy was shocked by that. and afterwards a couple of days, if i was in his shoes, i think i'd probably feel this way about the country. so he heard them. you know, and i think it's-- to me, it captures the tension of the moment. the country is at the verge of an explosion and what to do, how to fix it, and as you say, what do you do? and i think with what you see

with kennedy and others say, everybody, you know, had to do with, and i think they understood what the movement had done across the board. i mean, they'd pushed these issues forward, and they realized that a main part of their job was it talk to white people, right, to talk to the majority in the country and that they were the problem and after the meeting, somebody said, well, not long after the meeting, the reporter said he seemed shook up and said will you meet with black groups again? yes, of course. they're not the problem, the white people are denying black people rights. so it's a dramatic meeting and i opened the book up because i think it's a snapshot of that moment. but you know, two days later they're facing george wallace and the challenge is integrating the university of alabama. it was a fire on every front.

what do you think? you know, in terms of how i approached that meeting and how it's perceived? of course at the end of the book the surprise is the interview i found with baldwin in the kennedy library how he looked back at bobby kennedy. at the moment they were not happy, but it is intense and he represented, he as the attorney general of the united states, represented a failure of government. >> yeah. >> in an abstract way. and personally, harry belafonte was at the meeting and knew that kennedy had bail money. it wasn't personally he was bobby kennedy, it was the government and you know, just tired of having just-- and also baldwin was tired of having to thread the needle-- of course, those are realities that public figures have to deal with if they want to

pass civil rights legislation. >> it's interesting, one of the things, at least as i read the book is saying, it does resonate with today is that bobby kennedy is being educated by black people in a way. he and his brother, they're racial liberals and they're on that side of the political spectrum, but this is an era, white people and black people don't meet and don't talk, frankly. and this is a pretty frank exchange, maybe with unthat kennedy didn't expect to have. >> no, he did not, i'm sure. and i think when you-- it's important for listeners and -- is that what the country was like by the late 50's and the toll that senators-- the ignorance, the -- there's no interaction, no contact, and

it's-- i mean, there's something to be mindful of and your point about, yes, that they saw the black movement as an engine for change. and they also saw and understood the impatience and again, when robert kennedy sees young people living under these horrible conditions, and no access to education, no jobs, a sense that there's no way out, he understood that, first of all, the inhumanity of that and that that is explosive. people have no way out, i mean, but had a deal and he in his own way in washington d.c. and they began to work in a personal way on trying to engage with these communities and that culminates with the project in 1966.

i think it shows, okay, it's bad, but how do you grab hold? how do you begin to address these issues? but your point is the central one, that's the african-american-- the black movement, the black struggles finally had forced this into the center of national attention and they tried to respond and both jfk and bobby kennedy, they saw it and they learned from it and they understood history. they understood history and continued to engage history as they tried to understand this moment. a crisis 100 years in the making, and then the reconstruction, they saw that and they realized the cumulative impact much time and creating the situation. >> yeah. so i'm interested, you said earlier that, you know, the

critiques of kennedy and one of think is that he and his brother didn't do enough, you know, this is a book dedicated to kind of realistic engaging with what they were able to do and what they were not able to do, but specifically with bobby kennedy, i can think of several phases of his career and i made this posit inaccurately, but feel free to correct me. as a public figure, he helps run his brother's campaign and becomes attorney general of the united states at a pivotal moment for the civil rights movement and the doj is doing a number of things you document in the book and he becomes a senator. again, he's a public figure and he's able to push in foreground public issues, and then he runs for president, and along the

way he's doing things like a project which i'm sure you'll talk about a little bit as the discussion continues, but you sort of list some of the principal-- people say that he didn't do enough. so what did he do? right, if we want to take doj, senator, running for president, what are the main things that we can say that kennedy accomplished for race and civil rights. >> and that's -- you have to move in context. and it's not just what he did, but it's what he created the opportunity to do. what he did in the justice department. building that team, brook marshall, john door, they created a field operation of civil rights lawyers going into the deep south to litigate voting rights cases. thurgood marshall said that's like what we did, that's how you got black people in the

fields, working with people like bob moses and people with snick and getting to see up close. so he created that and so i think that the justice department and again, i don't think -- i don't think it has been fully explored to look at exactly what they did, what they were up against, you know, how they moved. in 1962 they introduced a voting rights bill, all right, and they knew it had little chance, but he said we have to do something and great testimony where bobby kennedy goes up against stan urban, back and forth, back and forth, arguing about the constitution and this has been important, if you said you cannot, have you have a sixth grade education, no literacy test. and that's a major way that southern registrars reduced to admit african-americans, the

bill didn't pass, but he tried. and mike mansfield said what do you tell the people? you tell the people you'll never get civil rights with a democratic president, got to be southern democrat, i'll pivot to baldwin, all hell is breaking loose, in birmingham, maybe the country now they've seen this horror show, we'll be able to get pressure, but what he and his brother do, they begin to lobby, bring groups to the white house, religious groups, women's groups, to get people engaged and they write that bill. and nobody-- he said it's unlikely we can get a strong bill through, right? but we have to try, but then he also said, but if people think a law is going to make this problem go away, you're out of

your mind. he understood how it was, but that you needed that. so just that alone. the last two and a half years that president kennedy is in the white house and bobby in 1964, but by the spring of '63 they're writing major civil rights legislation and looking at strategy to get this through, bipartisan and to law. and by the time john kennedy goes to dallas on november 20th, that bill is on its way and that basically is the bill that lyndon johnson will sign in july and right there, that's huge. i mean, there are several good books on the civil rights act of 1964 that document this and put it in the context -- and then let me, other things, d.c., that was his city, right? he saw, again, the same thing in the district of columbia as other cities, what's happening to young people, no

opportunities, and the dunbar pool is closed and closed for nine years, used to be a prize winning swim team. what is this? the d.c. commission can't get the money because the southern senators control the budget of d.c. he pushed to raise the money to get that pool restored. he organized a jobs program for high school kids to get the jobs with the government and private sector over 1,000 summer jobs. so he's doing things on a microlevel. prince edward county, he was committed to what was happening to those children, the schools were closed for five years, 1700 roughly african-american children out of school, no public school and that was a cause that both he and the president were committed to and president kennedy said do whatever you can as long as

it's-- legally possible, whatever, just do something and they created the free school as they're litigaing the case and create a free public school and it opens, ironically, opens in september of 1963, the day after the birmingham church is mobbed. so this is really explosive period, but if people have that opinion, you know, i think that people who say that haven't done the work of looking. it's sort of a-- the judge thing, and the -- and really the history is complex and rich, so -- and then, you know, i shouldn't say about the senate, but by the time he became a senator, he understood a lot and focused his attention on the urban, what's happening in cities. he was the one person after it

exploded in august of 1965 and push law and ford and across the spectrum, robert kennedy said how can you expect, he used the term negroes back then, when the law is against them. and it's landlords that cheat them and merchants that -- so he had an understanding and he's focused and he really pushed to address those conditions in your began areas to get the support, the government involvement, and working with the rest of the communities to begin repairs, and the damage of the decades of segregation and poverty and poor schools. there's no quick answer to that, you have to move through the period and also understand what's going on, understand the political challenges and understand the many ways, you know, not just one thing, but

many different ways he and the people he's worked with, who work with him, and president kennedy. and we're talking about robert kennedy, but in my book i spend a good bit of time on president kennedy. he understood what the issue was. i mean, that interview with thurgood marshall met with him in april of 1960. again, you have to find the opening. and in two and a half years they achieved quite a bit, if you look at it in the context of the period and you know, sort of what was done and what was attempted and have the influence lobbying for the civil rights bill, business people and the rest. it was not grand standing, it was doing the tough work. >> yeah. so i hear you saying that, picking up on our previous discussion, that the kennedys

being educated by, you know, being exposed to the problems of african-americans in the south and the north, that he's doing things like trying to address ways for black voting rights in the south and we kind of thought that battle was won and we're back in to again, and these things that are kind of the next stage of the movement through his encounters with black people, educate them. pushing for the civil rights bill when the democratic party is still the party of the solid south, a party of the southern segregationists, it doesn't look like we can get it through and later in his career trying to think about things like problems with urban youth, things for cutting edge and also being, you know, you don't want to exaggerate too much,

but there's the stories-- and you mentioned in your book there was a concensus around crime and that that was the amend public policy to be directed at your been problems and that that's the roots of mass encars ration. >> right. >> and not to say that kennedy was wholly apart from that, but he could see a bit of the other side. >> and i would argue that was a part-- he realized, you -- no, this -- to him, the most important thing were the conditions in these urban areas. he understood why people were rebelling, right, and he said, if you-- that is not the solution, in fact, that aggravates the

problems, more violence. so, when i think of this book ends where she picks up, and it moves through the late '60s, the police, everything she described happened, but voices like kennedy and martin luther king are looking at the problems that-- to help the people in the communities help themselves and get, you know, schools and create jobs and all of that. so, i think, i wouldn't-- i don't think -- i think it's a different take and i think i analysis of the situation was correct, right. the analysis of the moynihans and people who -- lyndon johnson who really saw this as a law and order issue, a crime

issue, oh, maybe people need help. they tonight do anything. the war in vietnam took all that and it makes it a different analysis, which is important and these only the only ones, there were many people who saw things that way, but they're unique as a white public political figure. he supported the watts royter workshop and he wanted to incorporate that, a federal theater project, to support the cultural developments and he's just one person, but he's, i think, a force for pushing things in that direction and the pull in the other direction, which elizabeth hinton's book documents in great detail when we move from the '60s forward. but you point out we're back today with the similar questions that we had in this period. >> okay. great. you know, this is -- i'm

interested in differences, if any, between bobby kennedy and his brother john. now, of course, president kennedy is, you know, tragically assassinated in 1963, always the great what-if and we don't have the evidence because we don't actually have him being exposed-- being exposed to the 1963 development. a part of what you're saying is that kennedy is seeing things as early as 1961, seeing the urban problems and maybe that a lot of other white liberal public figures aren't quite seeing yet. you know, do you get the accepts that bobby is different than john in his ability to see the problem? or maybe we just don't have enough evidence because kennedy we don't know how he would have

evolved. >> i think that president kennedy. i think that john kennedy. i mean, if you read, as marshall said, he understood. thurgood marshall and this is at the library which is so revealing, that john f. kennedy phones thurgood marshall in the senate fund and called him to meet in his office, he was a senator then, and he understood everything, he had statistics on voting and what marshall said, he is -- that he's for -- he wants to change things. he's for racial equality and there are great quotes in the book, that he supported equality, citizenship, full rights and that he wouldn't be the normal typical politician, and of course, when he pushes for the civil rights act, why he expected the republicans to come along, this is like war.

our country is at stake. and as you state, people saw, but they saw the way the issue was manipulated by politicians to exacerbate white racial fears and resentment. and it's in parts of the book. president kennedy is interested in the score and the peach that he gave in hawaii and right before he gave his civil rights speech, again, defines the problem as a national problem, and our cities are on fire, you know, and -- we have got to see who we say we are and you know, and end discrimination and provide for full rights. so, yeah, i think that's a great question and you know, i don't have the final answer on it, but they were closer

together than people thought. they had different personalities, different kind of ways of engaging. and i think robert kennedy felt this intensely, compassionate, passionate, and he really gave it his all and in ways that were unique to him. >> so, you know, i mean it's interesting, right? because a standard criticism of the kennedys, but particularly president kennedy, as you've said, that he didn't do enough, that he was too beholden to the southerners, particularly the white southern senators that segregation, and promised to end segregation with the stroke of a pen and that after he's elicht-- elected, okay, you have issued the executive order and that,

you know, that what the kennedy administration does, they kind of indirectly through administration, through the department of justice. so why, why that misconception? why-- >> i think that's a very good question to put to our colleagues and historians, because i would argue that that in '62, the effort to get the civil rights bill introduced in may of '62 and how it played out, had mansfield's advice and mansfield was a civil rights, and the power of southern democrats, you can only do what you can do. as they move towards '63, his closest advisors told him not to give a speech, and that it would jeopardize reelection in 1964 when he could have, right? now, i'm doing it and the only two people who thought he

should do it was his brother and him and-- after his brother, he was willing to put his political future on the line. i think he had the confidence, he was a charismatic leader, he was smart and i think they had a sort of faith in this country and if he did it, it would be tough with southern democrats and democrats traditionally needed the south to win. so, i think, you know, i think that just we shouldn't be judging, to say that i think without digging in and doing the work and contextualizing it. and falling on your sword doesn't do anything to move things forward. in some cases, as we're looking at it today, it's tough and the challenges that president biden

faces, how do you navigate that in that sphere, there are other place, working the state and local level and many places to continue, but depending on your position as an official, you have to-- it's not about winning, but about accomplishing something and i think for the kennedys, 1963 it was about accomplishing something. and the company was-- the late '60s shows you where it was moving and they saw it by '62, 63. certainly by '63. are you convinced yet? >>. [laughter] >> i'm much more than before i read your book. >> okay. >> you know. >> i'm not trying-- the i think this is i'm not trying to put them up -- they moved in their time and they connected with forces that were

moving the country and challenging the country and moving it forward and that's, i think, what's significant. not the great leader, but it's about that and how do you function and they knew that as robert kennedy said, the law. if you think that that's -- there are so many ways that we have to face this and move to change and people's attitudes, ideas, local, state, so, yeah, and i think -- i have a much better appreciation of that. and one of those historians that you're describing and i wasn't interested, and i thought i knew and didn't matter so, again, it's -- it's the context and looking at the history in a fuller measure for the period. >> so, you know, before we get to questions, i want to maybe talk about one other thing that was involved and we mentioned

it briefly earlier in the conversation. near the end of the book, you talk about the person in several corporations that i can't remember the names of all of them. let's call it the society of redevelopment corporation, and it's an interesting, you know, i'd like you to talk about it, what was it supposed to do. how did kennedy facilitate it because what's interesting about it, it becomes part of a struggle between people and well-heeled white people with money who are going to control the thing and thomas winds up being in charge of it, but can you kind of narrate that story and how kennedy becomes involved? and also how kennedy helps resolve the tension about who is going to run it. >> okay. yeah, i mean, it's-- you know, again it's another example, the war on poverty is

shrinking, right? and the cities are meaning so much, a senator from new york and he really wanted to do something that is progressive, something he would do and people like me to not just make speeches, we have to act. so he goes in february of '66 and walks to-- talks to people, talks to local leaders and sees the conditions and decides that, you know, they are going to try do develop a project here. and you know, robert kennedy had a real talent for attracting and hiring really smart committed people and he had two younger aides, peter edelman and adam wolinsky, young, bright, energetic, in line with what kennedy was

concerned about so they study-- and adam wolinsky oh, and tom johnson, very important, he ran kennedy's new york office. and they exflorid people in cities what might work and they developed this redevelopment corporation which was -- to get some funding put in that could help, and that level in this committee was joe clark in pennsylvania. anyhow, basically, it's just -- there's not enough government money to do what needs to be done. they develop a project with two entities. one is the community. a community board representing the interest and the concerns of the community, and what should be done. and he's looking at everything,

housing, education, a number of projects that would be developed over time to redevelop the community. and then one of the days, what about getting a board of corporate people to help raise money, right? and to provide good advice, and so -- and robert kennedy was not like other business people, but he appealed to a number of people and got tremendous support, the names are flying out of my head right now, but impressive group of people involved in business and finance and that was set up. and i think for these businessmen, they saw what was happening in cities and sort of their interest was, i think, motivated by that as well. and really something had to be done basically and kennedy really emphasized that. so he they were advised and the community was developing the project and this is life,

right? i mean, who is going to run in the community? who is in charge of the community? there are these women who had been working forever and helped senator kennedy, but there were young are people, more militant people and so that kind of all blew up and that had to be put back together again. and then when things finally got -- and i mean, kennedy met him, earl graves, who was an aide to robert kennedy knew, they bought -- he brought franklin thomas in and he agreed to head the community part. he didn't like the fact that there was a group that seemed to be taking more control. so that got a little testy. and as it worked out, thomas pushed ahead and he really began getting people homes, getting people jobs, finding out what the people wanted and

grass roots kind of stuff to make a plan and eventually, kennedy saw that john door was leaving the justice department and he brought john door to work on the side for the service corporation, which is a business and with john door coming out of the civil rights movement. john door is -- he and frank thomas got along famously and eventually-- it evolved, let's say that, it evolved and it's, you know, became a model. and martin luther king pointed to it as a model of a project that would run by the community. and to a large extent, it was, increasingly it was not in question, but again, you needed to raise the money and get the support, so there's a book on

the project, which i cite a number of times, but that is certainly worth looking at, but again, it demonstrates, it's not perfect, but it was initiative, it was well-received in new york and others, and king pointed to it as a-- you know, something similar in philadelphia. just kinding other ways in which the war on poverty is going up, and -- help and local people, community people need to be involved in determining what they needed. >> okay, great. all right, so we are going to start questions in about three minutes, but i have to ask the what-if question. obviously, you've thought about this, you know, the-- bobby kennedy was the great what-if of the late 1960's. as you say in your book as he's

running for president, his advisors advise against giving civil rights speeches in places like indiana, you've got to cultivate the white people and sort of moderates a little bit, but -- they get a lot of white working class voters and some voters in the south, you know, kind of limited, but the great what-if of bobby kennedy is perhaps he's a person that could have kept the liberal coalition intact, the vote on civil rights and to garner support for some white working class people. which forces the question we face today. and you know, so people who are optimistic about bobby, they think he had that potential.

i'm just interested in your thinking, speculation about this with r what-if question. are those people optimistic about bobby in that regard, are they misplaced? is there optimism misplaced? we don't have enough evidence? what's your thinking about the great what-if of bobby kennedy? >> i think it's highly likely that he would have been nominated after california. but if he had become president-- liberal, that's passe, he was something new and not totally new, but i think he inspired people to public service, you know, young people and he also, you know, brought tremendous-- attracted tremendous talent who were committed the way he was.

and i think back in the '60s with the civil rights movement and people, young people, civic activists and really attracted a lot of people who went into public life who wanted to be a part of the solution so i think he would have had the drawing power if he had become president and he would have built an administration that would have been amazing and again, you don't want to minimize the challenges because things are tipping and you see-- but it would have given some-- someone said to me once the difference between what-if, you know, kennedy and nixon, it's like hoover and roosevelt. imagine in hover was-- and because kennedy had the roosevelt flare, and look in the media, robert kennedy would have attracted people like that and they would have been there in the late '60s, ready to go.

so i think, you know, keeping -- there's a lot that had to change in american politics and public life in the '60s that began changing and his capacity and his ability to bring people in and i mean, it's just something that could have made a difference at that moment compared to when you think about how things turned. and again, the country, you talk about entrenched racism and he shows us what's coming. so, the problems would have been huge and there's no telling, but it would have been certainly different and, yeah, and it would have been, i think, what he had hoped was to move our public life and our democracy in a new direction and that's -- who knows what that would have brought, but it certainly would have been interesting to see. >> okay.

great. that's a great segue to guess. last thing, one of the questions, for one of the people you described who would have been too young to join the administration, but was certainly inspired by bobby kennedy was david axelrod, barack obama's campaign manager and advisor in the white house and david axelrod talks about bobby kennedy as an inspirational thing and when he saw barack obama, was how bobby kennedy inspired people. and you're right about his ability to inspire young and creative people. okay. so the questions. so i'm going to kind of jump around in the questions. some of them we've talked about, like a question about kennedy's efforts outside of the south and we talked a little around that. but i'm going to ask a question that, you know, you've thought

about before and here -- i'm just going to read the question. how do you reconcile robert kennedy's work done on behalf of senator mccarthy's un-american activities committee and roy, with the work he did later to support civil rights? >> that's a great question. and one i had when i started the book, and the answer is that robert kennedy in the committee, and who was that, in '53 i guess, brother went to the senate. and first of all, he and roy cowan hated each other, day one, hired around the same time and he went off and looked for a -- libraries and american embassies and stuff. bobby kennedy's job on that committee was to investigate

allies trading with what was then known as communist china. he was not sitting and peppering questions to mccarthy, he was doing a study of who was trading with and i think he found out and written, and his work got praised by the washing post and new york times, this was a really good thing out of this committee, this is important information, but by the time six months, roy cohen-- mccarthy made roy cohen the head the staff and robert kennedy quit. before he quit, they had a fist fight at the mccarthy hearings and-- oh, yeah, he quit and went on worked on other committees and then hired by the democrats. when he was working for mccarthy on the republican side, he was hired by the democrats and came in right before the mccarthy hearings began and he challenged cohen

on a number of things and then robert kennedy was the one who wrote the report that censured joe mccarthy. and he had a relationship with mccarthy with the family 10 years earlier. so there was a personal relationship. but his work on the committee digging out communists and that sort of thing. and years later, people felt in the 50's, but in the early '60s, a journalist -- some people never forgave robert kennedy for having anything to do with joe mccarthy and his friends, how did it happen? and he said to peter moss, well, i thought there was a threat and i was wrong. you know, i was wrong, you know, so it's-- it really is a headline grabber, and people kind of gravitate to that so my sense

is-- in fact, while working with the committee he went to work a former head of the communist party to learn more about the communist party and curiosity and meetings, and i think it's more complicated than perceived looking back. >> here is an open-ended question and i'm just going to -- the question is did he -- did he, robert kennedy, ever feel like he did enough? i guess it was a phrase that, we all worry about whether we're doing enough. how did you get a sense of how he felt about the work he was doing? did he feel like he was doing enough or he should be doing more? was he disappointed in what he accomplished? >> he strikes me as a kind of person who wouldn't waste time thinking like that, and passion, energy and patience, you know, he understood that he said, you solve one problem

there are 12 more and they're more complex than the one before. and just keep moving, keep learning, keep looking. one civil rights activist said about robert kennedy, he went, he saw, he listened, he grew and that describes him and do i do enough, and he made mistakes and when he thinks about that and the course correction or whatever, but i think he understood human nature and he understood and he wasn't self-object absorbed. he was engaged in the life of the country and at a time when the urgency was great. so i don't think he was-- i think that running for president, to me, that was interesting how he thought of what brought him to that decision and you don't know. it's really interesting to get inside of that, but it's more-- there's know clear path. i mean, robert kennedy understood that, there's no

clear path. learning, growing, and he did that. >>... i'll try to keep this succinct. the ole miss crisis was huge. it was the biggest domestic crisis the kennedy administration faced. this rope governor, they have supreme court ruling that he admitted to being in mississippi. they had what marshall called a potential conservancy on their hands. that all hell can break loose.

if this governor did not do his job and so the buildup to that was to try -- he said he would and he didn't and full-scale riot. full-scale riot on the campus of ole miss. marshals could shoot to kill. two people were shot and killed. then they called up the army and army got delayed. robert kennedy said it was the worst night of my life. he and the president and other aid are sitting in the white house calling from a pay phone, way before cell phones, and it was just awful. after it was over some asked him what his brother had learned. i really think this is interesting, from the crisis. he said my brother lord never to

believe -- the old-school interpretation, the poor south, the federal government, you know, just brought it to life. the tip of the delta -- let me add one of the thing because kathleen kennedy told me about this film when robert kennedy went back in 1966, he was invited by the law students to come back to ole miss. what's going to happen when i go back there? that's just four years later. they really wanted him. so he went. ethel kennedy went with him. he had protection but people in that state still hated him but the law students wanted him. he went and i mean, the film was great but the background and the students come and he gave a wonderful speech there and got a standing ovation with 6000

students in that auditorium. the delta, the trip in 1967, they would hold field hearings to investigate war on poverty programs, what was happening. one of them was in, near jackson and there's a great picture in the book. he heard about the poverty, the historic project and just, and you wanted to see. again he wanted to see. so he and another senator went with marian wright and peter edelman. marion wright is the reason they went because she came and testified in washington. he had never seen poverty what he saw there, is bad as it was in so many cities. he went back immediately and

push to get more federal aid but it had huge impact on him. and horrified him. just kept them going but he wanted the country to see. they had hearings and they brought people to washington to try to put a spotlight on this and to really push for the federal government to expand anti-poverty programs around the country. great question. >> okay. here's another one. this question asks about a 1968 late-night meeting in west oakland. 1968, late-night meeting. the book inside with the 1963 baldwin meeting. i guess i guess the wind you

discussed before. discuss how his approach changed and why in went -- why he went and how we try to translate the session into action. i guess the question also wants to ask, did the open beating also garner they get out the vote support for the black community for the primary? >> it certainly helped. that's really a great observation about the other side of the baldwin meeting. kennedy understood that people were angry and he is going to catch it, right? so as part of the california primary he went to a church in oakland at 10:00 at night and he took raiford johnson was with him and john glenn who was campaigning with him, and john. off the go. he told them just be quiet. it's going to be rough but don't worry. he's telling his friends. he got up there and it started.

this is wrong, that is wrong. you need to do this. why don't you do that? he answered and talked about, well maybe, i can't promise you but -- and he responded. at one point rayford johnson wanted to get up you with anchor. he said no. this is between them and me. and it went on. willie brown was the moderator and so they finally brought it to a close, and there was some, by the end a little since they had reached him and there was discussion and then he went back to the hotel and john klin said well i don't think you got too many votes tonight. willie brown said, oh, no. they are going to turn out. i mean, they're going to work. the next day, berkeley, and african-american newspaper publisher, helped organize. people were calling him wanting to help, and yes, people joined

up and work on the get out the vote campaign. and it was such a -- and he went back to oakland the next day. he was supposed to go somewhere else to a park and spoke to the community and had a big get out the vote rally. it was a great moment but he understood, you know, you have to listen and be there and be responsive. and, of course, in the primary i think he got 96% of the african-american vote in oakland. huge voter turnout. so yes, that's a good observation. >> it's interesting, what i hear you saying is, i forgot the way you phrased it earlier, he came, he did this and he listened. it seems like he is continually listening to people who were really willing to tell them in a very aggressive way that you're not doing enough and that he reached some of those people

even though they didn't necessarily agree with everything, his particular approach. >> one thing about, we would talk about liberals before, one of the people in the park, and african-american activist said he's not one of the last liberals. he's the last of the great believable. i titled the chapter that, the last of the great believable as. >> what does that mean, the last of the great believable? >> people trusted what he said. he didn't overpromise. he didn't make things up. he listened vicki said what he thought. different kind of political figure, so i think, yes, truth telling is believable, and trusting. >> here's another question.

how much did jfk's assassination open a wound that allowed bobby to feel and see things differently in 1968 then he had prior to november 22, 1963? maybe that's too speculative, i don't know. >> you know, when i wrote about president kennedy assassination, i i was 13 when he was assassinated, and i remember like, just awful and terrible. but writing about it, i experienced it in a different way. i knew was going to happen when it happened, and writing about robert kennedy, i talked to people who knew him then. john segan dollar and others. it was devastating in ways that

are indescribable. but how it impacted him, people say, maybe he changed and people closest to him said no, he was always himself, compassionate. but what is law professor said, i thought this was really interesting, he said he was a blocking back for his brother. he took care of his brother. he did it because they worked in tandem and he said once he was gone, he said, bobby became more and more himself. he moved into his public life. and again bringing the concerns that he had developed, so it's very interesting to think about that. but wound is what, i mean, through the rest of his life, ,t was just a deep loss, but the notion that it didn't change

him, he continued on and had moved to put all his energy into the things he cared about. >> okay. here's another question. back to the critical vein of questioning. this is one you thought about before. the question goes like this. how should look at kennedy's conficker relationship with martin luther king? with wiretapping him, with following hoovers instructions against king. i think that question should be asking about the fact that robert kennedy authorized wiretaps of martin luther king. how should we think about that? >> you should read my book because i was concerned about that. again that's one of the -- very complicated. hoovers pressure, hoovers power,

they knew, he knew but hoover kept pressing. were they talking? i don't want to get too deeply into the woods, but, but the pressure to -- hoover's pressure on kennedy, the evidence he had that martin luther king said he wouldn't see levinson and was talking to levinson. so finally october 20 of 62 he agreed to a temporary thirty-day wiretap on teams phone -- martin luther king's phone in a land and new york. and as you read about, so we did it. a couple reasons that people

speculate hoover had things on the president, on his private life, and the civil rights bill. this is october. they're fighting to get the civil rights bill moved to the house judiciary committee. it hoover leaked to the press as he would often do that, king and his time is connection of whatever, that was big. i'm speculating here, also kind of keep that at bay. again president kennedy was killed a month later. president johnson came in, or johnson became president, , and lyndon johnson was very close to do j. edgar hoover and had no problem and have different feelings towards king. so yeah, it came late and i hope the questioner will read about in the book because i really give this a lot of thought and read everything i could and sort of laid out where it is little more -- and it certainly does not diminish. in fact, fast-forward, robert

kennedy and martin luther king become much more closely aligned as time goes forward. they had concerns about poverty. they are concerned about the war in vietnam and there's a wonderful scene in the savings on conditions in the cities which kennedy was a part of where he and king had almost this cynically about the conditions and what to do. -- soliloquy -- so that relationship grew. there were so closely, i mean, what they saw with the problems and the solutions were very close, and their opposition to the war in vietnam as well. it was interesting to see how that, the relationship developed after 64, 65. i mean, it was never distant. it was a distant actually but

they were at odds but they became much more closely aligned around the issues of poverty, the cities and the war. >> okay. here's a long and thoughtful question assange is going to read the whole thing. from the moment i read, i think the person saying red, the moment i read robert kennedy's work he always seemed like the brain to me. someone who could keep things in order and keep working, but a bit reluctant to be the image, i think maybe to be the public figure, even after john's murder robert continued with his duties a little longer beyond the complicated relationship he had with lbj. what do you think was bobby's breaking point, the moment when he understood the strength and power to fight for the senate and then in the race for the

presidency? >> that's a great question. well, he stayed through 64. he and his team were critical to getting the civil rights bill through so he carried that through, the completion of the work that he and his brother had begun. but in 1966 he campaigns in the midterm for other candidates around the country, and the press see him as transformed, that you become a terrific public speaker, energetic, charismatic. i mean, really, really, well, i mean, just fully engaged in the work of politics, the senate and the causes he believed in. i think it took time. adam wolinsky noted the day the

robert kennedy stop wearing a black tie and it was when they were in latin america. it was a couple years after president kennedy's assassination. i think there was a gradual, always working, but coming into his own i think certainly by 66 he had fully come into his own. >> so here's a different kind of question. what role did robert kennedy's catholic faith play in his political life? >> i think his faith was formative. i mean, it's hard, i mean, he went to church on sundays. it was more than that. i think he had a deep faith and he was of the social justice i think, you know.

yeah, i think it's hard to identify specifically. i have moments in the book where i look at that, i think he was the deeply spiritual person. his catholic faith was a formative force in his life. and i think how he moved forward and what he achieved i think that was an important part of his strength, with other factors, too. it's hard to single one out. he was the kind of catholic who did not hesitate to challenge clergy. he was his own person. i mean, he had that kind of faith that he was responsible for it, and john the 23rd was pope, not that that reflected him but they care for the poor, public service, living that kind

of life. >> we've got actually three minutes. we have time for one last question, and i think this is an appropriate last question. this question is about the title of your book. the question is, can professor sullivan comment on her selection of the title of the book "justice rising: robert kennedy's america in black and white"? why did you pick that title? >> you are just describing -- now i know what it means. robert kennedy's america in black and white describes the book because it is him moving through our country in that way. but just as rising is of this convergence in this period of, first of all, the civil rights struggle had been going on for

decades. but the 1960s it's really broken in a way that donated national attention and action. and then it impacted, again, it broke through the cold war political culture and really energized american engagement, particularly a among young people, and yet the kennedy administration come in and being in sync with that. so together all the different forces that come together in the '60s. justice is rising, right? it's not, you know, and it has an impact that is difficult to measure. i mean, we can look at civil rights act and all the rest but we're sitting here talking about this today, and i think not everything was achieved. you at this backlash at the end of the decade but justice was rising in ways that were formative and historically significant. and i think at tremendous lessons.

again, it's a convergence and yet the kennedys really were a part of that, responded to it and really helped to contribute to that kind of movement. >> okay. this is the book, "justice rising: robert kennedy's america in black and white." by patricia sullivan. amazing book. i read the whole thing. i recommend our listeners get out and read it. as you said, pat, at various boys a lot of these are really complicated questions, and what you doing in the book is mobilizing all the evidence around them to sort of sort out things about the wiretaps. so it's well worth reading. so thank you, professor patricia sullivan for coming to the kennedy library forum. thanks to the audience for coming and for your wonderful

questions. and thank you to the kennedy library for inviting both of us to appear. >> yes. my thanks to you all. thanks, everybody. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> i want to welcome you to the hudson library and a stroke society live event with thomas hagar who is here to discuss assessing new book "electric city: thomas edison and henry ford tried to build utopia and insteare