the clerk: washington, d.c., september 7, 2021. to the senate: under the provisions of rule 1, paragraph 3, of the standing rules of the senate, i hereby appoint the honorable tammy duckworth, a senator from the state of illinois, to perform the duties of the chair. signed: patrick j. leahy, president pro tempore. the presiding officer: under the previous order, the senate stands adjourned until 12 noon, on thursday,

>> later in the week majority leader schumer has scheduled time for voting rights and election reformlegislation . watch thesenate live here on c-span2 .now we return to book tvprogramming . >> i meet with him in the senate office working as a candidate then . he said i went to lunch all afternoon. and what marshall says, he is , he wants to change things. there are great spots in the book but he's got it and he supports it equality and citizenship, full rights and that he wouldn't be the normal politician because

when he pushes for the civil rights act he says he expects republicans to come along but this is war. our country is at state and as you say, people start, but they also saw the way the issue was being manipulated by politicians, to exacerbate white racial fears and resentments. but no, i think in part of the book president kennedy understood it and the speech he gave in hawaii, right before he gave his equal rights speech he began to find a national problem. and our cities are on fire. he says we've got to see who we say we are. and you know, and discrimination.

and the full rights so yes, i think that's a greatquestion . i don't have a final answer but i think there are they are closer together but there are different personalities, different ways to engage. and i think robert kennedy's focus intensely and he's compassionate, and he really gave it his all. and in ways that were unique to him. >> i mean, this is interesting because the standard criticism of the kennedy, what particularly president kennedy as you point outthere that he didn't do enough . that he emboldened the southerners when he claimed the senate. the white vote senators who wanted segregation . that you know, he promised to end segregation by executive

order and that after he was elected after, you have an issue with the executive order. and that you know, that what the many districts does, he indirectly the administration through the department of justice, so why that misconception? >> i think that's a very good question. to put to our colleagues and historians because i would argue that that 1962 effort gets the civil rights bill into may 62 and played out and mansfield's advice and mansfield was all for civil rights but the reality is the power of southern democrats can only do what you can do and it's not, as he moves towards the 63, his closest advisers told him not to go

on civil rights because they thought it wouldjeopardize his reelection in 1964 and it could have . but no, i'm doing it and marshall, the only two people who thought he should do it was his brother , and him. and he got that from his brother but the point is he was going to put his political future on the line. i think he had the confidence . he was a charismatic leader. he was smart and i think they had a sort of faith in this country that he knew that if he did it but it was because of the southern democrats and democrats traditionally needed the south to win. so i think it's just you should be judging. to say that i think without digging in and doing the work and contextualizing it as a political figure what he can do and falling on your sword does not move anything forward. you may be a hero but in some quarters but it doesn't, so

how do you make change and we're looking at today. it's very tough. there's the challenges president biden faces. how do you navigate this in that sphere or other places that people can work at the state and local level, many ways that people can begin to continue but depending on your manifestation as an elected official, you have to it's not about winning again but just about accomplishing things and i think the kennedys by 63, it was about accomplishing something and they really realize it at the late 60sshows it . they saw it. by 62, 63. certainly. >> are you convinced yet? >> i'm much more to the side that i was before you wrote your book. >>.

>> the thing is i'm not trying to put them up because they moved in their time and they connected with forces that were moving the country forward so it's not that, that i think is interesting. not a great leader but it's how do you function and they knew that there's so many ways you have to face this and moved to change and people's attitudes, ideas, local states. i think i have a much better appreciation of the historians you're describing. the i thought i knew but it didn't matter. so again, it's context and looking at thehistory and moving it forward .

>> before we get to questions, i want to maybe talk about one other thing in your book and we mentioned briefly the conversation. near the end of the book you talk about several corporations, i can't remember the names of all of them . it's part of the redevelopment corporation and it's an interesting -- i'd like you to talk about what we are supposed to do, how kennedy coordinated because what's interesting is it becomes this struggle between black people and well-heeled white people with money on who was going to control the thing. and you know, eventually frank thomas winds up being in charge of it but can you just kind of narrate that story and how kennedy becomes involved and also how kennedy helps resolve the tension

about who's going to run it. >> yeah, it's again another example. the war on poverty is drinking. the cities are needing so much. and he really wanted to do something to address this. he said you know, people like me don't just make speeches, we have to act. so he goes to bed in february 66. he talks to people, talksto local leaders . he sees our decisions and decide that they are going to try to develop a project here . and you know, robert kennedy had a real challenge for attracting and hiring really smart people. and he had to younger aides,

peter edelman. who were young, very bright, energetic in line with what teddy is concerned about so they do this study and tom johnson. he was very important in this . they just explore, they talk with urbanists, black power people and all kinds ofpeople working in the city to figure out what might work . they developed this new development corporation . which was, and they also managed to get some funding that they could help and in that level on this committee was from joe in pennsylvania but anyway, basically it's not enough government money to be working. they developed a project with a few entities, one is community . committee boards,

representing the interests and concerns of the community . what should be done? and it was looking at everything. housing, education, a number of different projects wouldbe developed over time . to redevelop the community. and then one of his aides said their benefiting a board of corporate people to help raise money. and to provide for the site and so robert kennedy was not liked by business but he appealed to people and got tremendous support and the names aren't in my head right now but an impressive group of people involved in these differentfinances and that was set up . i think for these businessmen they saw what was happening and it was sort of their interest was i think

motivated by that as well. really something had to be done basically and kennedy really emphasized that. there were advisories, the community was developing the projects and there wastension at the beginning . this is life . who's going to run in the community, who's in charge of the community. there are these women who've been working forever and they had helped senator kennedy but then there were younger people, more militant people so that kind of all blew up and that had to be done again. then when things finally got, and when thomas had blown up by this time. kennedy met him, earl gray was an aide to robert kennedy, they both brought franklin thomas in and he agreed to have the community part. he didn't like the fact that there was a business group they seemed to be pulling more people. so that got a little testy. and as it worked out, thomas

pushed ahead and he really began developing homes, giving people jobs, finding out what the community wanted and really grassroots kind of stuff. to make a plan. and eventually, kennedy found out john doerr was leaving the justice department. and he brought john doerr to work on this side, the development service corporation which is the business and it was john doerr's coming out, john doerr is, he and frank thomas got along famously and eventually frank thomas so it evolved. let's just say that, it evolved but it became a model and martin luther king pointed to it as a model of a project that was run by the community. and to a large extent it was an increasingly, that was not

even a question. but again, you needed to raise the money and get the support so there's a terrific book on the bedside project. which eyesight a number of times but that is certainly worth people looking at. but it demonstrates that purpose but it was initiative that and it was very well received. in new york and others. and it came and pointed to it as a model of children doing something in philadelphia. there's plenty of other ways that the war on poverty was buying up in these cities and local people needed to be involved in determining what they needed . >> great. so we're going to start questions in about three minutes but i have to ask

obviously you thought about this. the lobby came over and it's a great what if of the 1960s. as you say in your book when he's running for president, his advisers advising against giving the civil rights speeches and making places like indiana you've got to cultivate the white people and you know, he's sort of moderates a little bit but he's committed to the whites. but then again a lot of white working-class voters and some voters in the south, that's kind of limited but the great what if of body kennedy is perhaps he's the person who could have kept the liberal coalition back. through his ability to both speak out on civil rights and to garner at least work for some white working-class people. it just forces the question we have to d