you, doctor eisenberg. one of our audience members says write your biography, it's interesting to think about the partisanship memories. where they only want conversation together. thank you all again, this video will be available on our youtube channel and a couple of days it again, you can order signed copies of the book. have a great night. ♪♪ >> we comes on c-span2 earn an intellectual piece. every saturday you will find events and people exploring our nations pass on american history tv. sunday book tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors. television for serious readers.

learn, discover, explore. weekends on c-span2. ♪♪ >> good evening, i am allen, director of the john f. kennedy presidential library. on behalf of all my library and foundation collects, i'm delighted to welcome all of you for watching online. i like to acknowledge the support of our underwriters. bank of america, and at&t. boston globe. social justice, supported in part by at&t. we look forward to questions and answers this evening. sipping questions via e-mail or

comments on the youtube page during this program. we are grateful to have this time the opportunity to explore robert kennedy's work and legacy with our distinguished guests this evening. delighted to introduce tonight speaker. it warm fertile walk back to library, patricia sullivan, william, professor of history at the university of south carolina. the author and editor of books including lift every voice, naacp and making up for civil rights movement. days of hope, democracy and a new deal era. freedom writer. her new book is justice rising. robert kennedy's america in black and white. our moderator for this discussion, kenneth is the

inaugural professor of law and harvard university. in constitutional history with a particular emphasis on race relations and economic life. creation of the civil rights lawyer. coeditor of the new black. what changed and what has not. welcome back to both of you, thank you for joining us this evening. >> it's a pleasure to be here with my old friend, patricia sullivan to talk about her amazing book. for the viewers, are going to have a conversation about 7:00.

you can submit questions, for shipping instructions on the screen around seven or so, transition take q&a. but it started. i would like to start with origins of this book about bobby kennedy civil rights. most of your career, historian of the civil rights movement, it's mostly overlooked individuals like houston, seven activist regina from organizations like the naacp. bobby kennedy may be a bit of an unusual public but maybe follows from what you have written before.

what drew you to write this book about bobby kennedy and what did you hope to accomplish when you started this project. >> virtually into be at the library, a question because of the playbook about bobby kennedy it is the furthest thing from my mind covering the generation racial justice and civil rights. my last book in 1910, it opened up the national framework of racial justice and civil rights. it's an amazing project to work on and it's the dynamic of

several the generations and realized the constitution guarantees the 14th and 15th amendment and the activities -- i mentioned charles hamilton, the lawyers and other ways they startle intersected with national development. black migration during the decades is reshaping racial landscape in the united states and segregation is becoming more deeply entrenched in northern and western cities. the grant decision accelerates in this a look at the 1960s because it's a national issue and struggles around the

country. we tend to look at the south and urban issues after 1964 so i was reading, wrote a book proposal and they pop up in situations. the book about him, didn't plan to write a book about him but i realize looking at robert kennedy through the context of the racial transformation in the 1960s, he moved through the deck it in a way that would allow me to explore, disrupt what we think we know and look at the larger context through that decade. at the same time, i got to know about him in ways that really

had no idea. i think this aspect of his public life is really central and largely overlooked so i sort of came into it and it's been an amazing journey. [inaudible] of the 60s viewed through bobby kennedy but it is every consideration as well of kennedy himself, kennedy is somebody who people think they know, this iconic figure, people have written about it. other people have written about him and his brother so what were the views of kennedy raised civil rights starting this

project and what made to be said about that? >> trick question. it doesn't seem as central, attorney general, they don't do enough, he wasn't immigrated into the context of african-american struggle and civil rights and also the charges in urban areas that become evident in the early 60s. so he was on the margin, a margin of much of the work done in the civil rights movement and away it's always been done but as i tell my story what you find in the past depending on the passion question asked and i was asking different kinds of questions and the biography is

terrific a number of other biographies of learned a lot from but they looked at his life in a different kind of context. now that the book is done, surprised by what all of us could have missed. if you say grassroots, it really is a fresh take. surprisingly changes in this. >> this is a book about a journey, america's journey through the 1960s, bobby kennedy's journey through the 1960s. i want to tell the reader about what that attorney is like.

where does bobby kennedy and america began at the beginning of the story? where does the story and up? >> i'll try to keep this brief. i started out, i didn't know how this would turn out but i realized he was significant in ways that have not been explored get so i knew certain aspects what he did and how he was engaged as our attorney general and an advisor and senator as a presidential candidate, it highlights the richness of the story i was exploring. i realized he was a major force, the civil rights movement

created a demand. what i found about he and his brother, not only did they respond to the demand which was urgent but they responded to the opportunity. the question is, for robert kennedy to act in a way that broke away from traditional politics and public leadership so it was my home and the resources are enormously rich. i did some background up to 1950. there are characteristics about him, he had a questioning spirit there are things about him that left him open and he sort of

told the truth. there's one incident early on which was interesting to me, the university of virginia he was head over legal forum 1931, he invited them to come, the nobel peace prize, a remarkable human being and he said he would come and the public meeting had to be segregated. he thought it was ridiculous and just bought world war ii and was aware of the decisions in higher education so he pushed. he talked with students and faculty in the president and

they agreed to have a nonsegregated meeting. the first meeting about time on the campus, 1500 people came. that wasn't an epiphany, he went on and his daughter was born, a young married couple but by the time he got to -- the 15th 50s were interesting. with the african-american struggle, malcolm x, baldwin, things were heating up. white people were moving in a parallel. the campaign is a pivot time because -- [inaudible] also ignites youth activism so

breaking through the cold war and 1960 when kennedy ran, his black gratian from the black vote in the north was pivotal. the importance of trying to figure out how to hold onto the south and they are seeing the country into turmoil. in a positive way with all the energy coming from. trying to speed up because it we are at 1960 but looking at when it comes to 1960, there's evidence of him looking at conditions in urban areas. he wants to win but by the time he becomes attorney general in 1961, he is ready to see. he's not developed to see the complexity and depth of the

problem is he was in the 60s but he's oriented toward race and discrimination, the major parts of the country domestically and attorney general, the justice department may be is the wrong word, they are ready to respond to what's happening and they see like today, seven governors and local officials define the law, condoning violence and by 1961 alabama after their freedom by talking about the covenant and other public officials, they are at war with this country so not an easy road.

maybe i should stop there but as it goes on, he is looking -- let me mention one thing because this is throughout the book, in the spring of 1961, he's meeting in new york in a building and he walks up has private meeting this, he starting to look at the problems he noticed the young people but the problem of young people living in poverty how to respond to that he begins organizing programs to provide support for recreation and job training, he has a double fishing and that movement is in the national spotlight.

what urban areas are like across several decades. so long as her. >> that was great. i went to pick up on something you just said, he said fairly early on in 1961, kennedy is inking about what we might call entrenched racial inequality, thinking about racial problems in the north and of course this book justice rising in this moment we are in where there is this large debate in the u.s. and across the world about things like how entrenched is racial inequality? where should we do about it? what are perspectives of people

of color and african-americans in the struggle against it? should black people be at the center of the struggle works you describing kennedy at the center -- a different moment but this moment in the 1960s. i want to start with the story, he almost start the book with this famous meeting, kennedy and a number of african-american figures famously james baldwin and a bunch of other people in new york. describe that meeting for our listeners and what happened? what does kennedy learn from and why did you choose that is the opening thing to say in the book? >> that was one of the

instances, in may of 1963, may 24 i think, that month the crisis in birmingham exploded across the country after people saw fire hoses so it was a fever pitch. the administration began immediately working on legislation. you've got to move and in the heat of us getting ready with wallace, it's a really intense period of several weeks. they recommended marshall, the attorney general, baldwin leaves so he went at the white house he and bobby met, they talked and

said they should talk again but they move on it's about a year later. they met in washington but they decided to have this meeting in new york. he just calls people and his recollection of the meeting, he felt kennedy was someone was unlike most politicians and public figures, baldwin had interacted with. kennedy went to the meeting thinking he'd get some advice or insight into how to deal with the problems. there was no legal segregation so he goes to the meeting and

his intention is to let them know the political challenges the administration faces. you have this congress so people gather and of course baldwin has no agenda, he just had people he respected and they just talk. one of the people in the meeting, a 23-year-old from louisiana, it would be the, horrible. this was 53 so he was on the front lines in new york, a broken jaw and there were other injuries he endured. he's sitting and things start rolling along and he's like wait a minute.

it makes me sick to be here and there's not enough and kennedy looks to the others thinking is a person you should listen to. he's the one who comes from the battle. what it showed is the communication gap. there is this young person so it went on for three hours and kennedy tried to answer and went through all the things the federal government has done or failed to do and everybody got in. there's no real transcript, i put together from recollection. the gist of it is, he sat silently. at one time he said to him was a

total gap. quadrant describes it as when white and black together -- she said if you don't get it, we are in trouble because you and your brother are the best. it was quite a statement kennedy sat there for three hours and said okay, we're done and they leave and there he is, everybody was shook up by the meeting, the most violent encounter so that happens and then people say that changed kennedy. by 1963, he knew things were

awful. but it was emotional there was a time when he said would usurp -- no, why would i go back to this country? but then a couple of days he said i think i probably would so he heard them. to me, it captures the attention of the moment. the country is at the verge of an explosion and what to do, how to fix it and what you do? i think what you see is everybody had to do it.

they realized the main part of their job was to talk to white people, talk to majority in the country if they were the problem. after the meeting someone said they are a little shook up. we meet with black groups again. yes, of course. you're not the problem, it's the white people. the white people are denying their rights so it's a dramatic meeting and i open the book because it's a snapshot of that moment but two days later they have the challenge, it was a fire on every side. what you think in terms of how i

approached the meeting and of course at the end of the book surprises me with baldwin in the kennedy library of looking back. the moment they were not happy but it was intense and he represented, he as the attorney general of the united states are presented the failure of the government in the abstract way. people have relationships, it wasn't personal, it was the government and he was tired having to thread the needle but of course that's the reality of public figures have to deal with.

>> it's interesting, one of the things as i read the book, it does resonate that bobby kennedy is educated by black people. he and his brother are racial liberals, they are on that side and white people and black people don't really this is an exchange. maybe one he didn't expect to have. >> no, he did not. it's important for listeners and what the country was like, they are ignorant. there's no interaction, no contact.

something to be mindful of. what you said about they saw the black movement is the engine for change but they also understood in patients. when robert kennedy sees young people under horrible conditions, no access to education, jobs, no weight out, he understood that his explosive. how to deal with that and in washington d.c. begin work in a personal way trying to engage with these communities in 1966. it shows that okay, how do you

grab hold? how do you begin with these issues? the african-american black movement finally forced this into the center of national attention and the way they both saw it, they learn from it and understood history. continue to engage history as they try to understand the crisis 100 years making looking back to reconstruction and the betrayal of reconstruction. they realized the impact of time into the situation. >> you said earlier the critiques of kennedy, one of

which is they didn't do enough. dedicated to engaging with what they were able to do and what they were able to not do but specifically bobby kennedy, i can think of several phases of his career, i may describe this in accurately, feel free to correct me. he helps with his brothers campaign and it's a very pivotable moment in the d.o.j. department of justice is doing a number of things you document in the book. he becomes the senator and he's a public figure and he's able to push the public issues and then he runs for president and along the way he's doing things, which i'm sure you will talk about as

the discussion continues but you list some of the principal -- people say he didn't do enough so what did he do? taking d.o.j. senator, running for president, or the main things we can say kennedy accomplished in civil rights? >> have to move in the context, it's not what he did, it's what he created the opportunity to do. building that team, marshall, they create civil rights lawyers for into the deep south to litigate voting rights. that's like what we did, working

with people and seeing up close. he created that and the justice department, i don't think it has been exactly what they were up against, how they moved in 1962, the introduced a voting rights bill. they knew it had very little chance but he said we have to do something. bobby kennedy goes up against irvine, back and forth, back and forth. this could have been an important this addition if you have a sixth grade education, illiteracy test. a major way to building he said

what do we tell the people? you tell the people are never going to get the southern democrat movement. from that to the civil rights bill, fat moment when baldwin, all hell is breaking loose everywhere. maybe the country now, you will be able to get it but what they do is they begin to lobby and bring groups to the white house and get people engaged and i write ductal and he said i don't think -- it's unlikely we can get the bill through but we have to try and he also said if people think they who would make this go away, he understood that they needed that.

just that alone, president kennedy is in the white house for by the spring of 63, they are writing major civil rights legislation from mobilizing public support in figuring out strategies for getting through. bipartisan brought into law. by the time john kennedy goes down, the bill is on way. that's basically the bill july so right there there are several quickbooks that documents this but if you put it in the context and other things, d.c., that was his city. he saw again same thing in the district of columbia as other cities what's happening to young people, the dunbar pool is

closed the commission can't get the money. kennedy pushed but also raise the money to have it. they organized a job through high school kids. he was committed to what's happening to those children from other schools were closed for five years, 1700 out of school. that was when he and the president were committed to it. resident kennedy said do whatever you can, just do

something. they created a preschool essay litigate the case. they raise the money and opened, ironically it opened in september 1963 the day after. if people have this, people who say comment on the worker working, instead of gotcha and really the history is complex and rich. he understood a lot. he focuses attention he was the one person in august of 1965.

he became across the political spectrum robert kennedy said how can you expect? how do they obey the law when the law is against him? so he had an understanding and he spoke it and pushed to address those conditions in urban areas to get the support of the government involved in working with communities begin to repair the damage of property. there is no quick answer, you have to move through and understand what is going on and understand many ways, not just one thing but many different

ways he and the people he worked with worked with him president kennedy. i've spent time with president kennedy, he understood what the issue was. you have to find openings and in two and a half years, they achieved quite a bit if you look at it in the context of the. and what was done and what was attempted and having influence lobby the civil rights bill. it was not grandstanding, it was really tough work. >> i hear you saying picking up on our previous discussion that kennedy is being educated by

being exposed to the problems of african-americans, he's doing things like trying to protect black voting rights in the south, pedophile that battle was oneself back in the middle of it again. these are things that are kind of the next stage of the movement through encounters with educators, pushing for the civil rights bill when the democratic party is still the party of the solid south and segregationist likely to get through. later in his career trying to think about like problems of urban youth, cutting edge and also we don't want to exaggerate too much but there's a critique of late 60s liberals and you

mentioned her in your book, consensus around crime and that was the main public policy directed at urban problem. notice mass incarceration and not to say kennedy was wholly apart from that on the other side. >> he realized that but it's the most important thing for the conditions in these urban areas. they understood why people were rebelling. he said that's not the solution, aggravates it. more violence so i feel like

this book ends where she picks up. the fact is it moves to the 60s, everything she describes happened kennedy and martin luther king all the programs that can deal with helping people in these communities and create jobs in all that. i think it's different. the analysis of the situation. interest this law and order issue but they don't do anything.

i think he had a different analysis which is important and he's not the only one. there are many people but he is unique as a white public political figure. he wanted to incorporate becoming president, a theater project to support the cultural developments he's just one person but he is a force for pushing things in that direction in april and the other direction which this book documents in great detail. it's with similar questions. >> i'm interested in the

differences, if any between bobby kennedy in his brother, john. of course president kennedy tragically assassinated in 1963, there's always the great what if we don't really have the evidence because we don't get exposed to kennedy in the post- 1963 development. part of what you are saying is kennedy's seen things, maybe a lot of other liberal public figures. >> you get the sense that bobby is different than john and his inability to see if the problem? maybe we just don't have evidence because kennedy is assassinated. >> i think john kennedy -- as

marshall said, he understood and this was in the kennedy library, john f. kennedy and the legal defense fund meets with him in the senate office. he understood everything. what marshall said, he is -- he wants to change things and there are great quotes in the book, he supported equality and he wouldn't be the normal politician. when he pushes the civil rights, he's at this is like work. our country is at stake. as you say, people they also saw

issue is being manipulated by politicians to exacerbate white racial fears and resentment and i think president kennedy understood and the speech he gave in hawaii right before he gave the speech that defines the problem as a national problem in our cities are on fire, we have got to see who we say we are had and discrimination. i think it's a great question and i don't have the final answer but i think there were different personalities and ways

of engaging. robert kennedy felt this intensely, compassionate and he gave it his all in ways that were unique to him. >> it's interesting because particularly president kennedy said he didn't do enough beholding to the southerners in the senate, they want segregation with executive order to send him and say you haven't issue with the executive order and for the kennedy administration does and directly

with the administration to the department of justice -- >> that's a good question because the effort to get the civil rights bill in may of 62 and how it played out but the reality seventh democrats, you can only do what you can do. they told him not to give the speech to jeopardize his reelection in 1964 and they should have. the only people who thought he should do it was his brother and him.

he was willing to put his political future on the line. yet the confidence, he was smart and i think they have this in the country but it would be tough with seventh democrats. they needed the south to win so we shouldn't be judging -- to say that without digging in and doing the work and contextualizing it as a political figure what you can do does not move anything forward. how do you make change? looking at today, it is tough to think about the challenge resident biden faces. how do you navigate this in that sphere? there are other places at the

state and local level many ways people begin to or continue but depending on your position as an elected official, just about accomplishing something and 63 it was accomplishing something. >> are you convinced yet? #. >> i much more sympathetic than i was before you write your book. >> the thing is, i'm not trying to -- they moved in their time connected with forces moving the country forward.

i think that's what's significant. that the leader, it's about how do you function? as robert kennedy said, there are so many ways you have to face and moved to change people's attitudes and ideas and local states and i have a much better appreciation. i just wasn't interested. i thought i knew, it didn't matter so it's the context and looking at the history. >> before we get to questions, i want to talk about one other thing and we mentioned it briefly earlier in the conversation. near the end of the book, there

are several corporations i can't remember the names let's call them redevelopment corporation. it's an interesting -- i'd like to talk about what it was supposed to do, it's interesting about it is it is a struggle between black people white people with money. eventually frank thomas winds up being in charge of it but just narrate the story and how kennedy becomes involved and also have kennedy helps resolve the tension who's going to run it. >> as another example, the war on poverty is shrinking, the cities are so much.

he really wanted to do something. people like me mattress making speeches but you have to act. so they go so they can walk through and talk to the people and local leaders and see the conditions and he decides they are going to develop a project here. he is a real talent attracting and hiring smart people. tom johnson was very important

the office and they explore all caps of people working in cities to pick up what it's like. this redeveloping corporation and they managed to get funding that could help in the committey since there is not enough government money to do what needs to be done to develop a project two entities. one is community board representing the interests and concerns of the community, what should be done? looking at everything from housing and education, a number of projects to be developed over

time to redevelop the community and he said what about getting a board of corporate people to help raise money and provide good advice and robert kennedy was not liked but he appealed to a number of people in cap tremendous support, the names are flying out of my head right now the people involved in business and finance. for these business men what they thought was happening in their interest was motivated by that as well. something had to be done and kennedy emphasized that. the committee was in the projects and as you said, who's

going to run the community? who's in charge of the community? there women working forever they helped kennedy but there were younger people so that all blew up. he's blown up, kennedy met him, he wasn't 82 robert kennedy so he brought franklin thomas and he agreed to have the community board. he didn't like the fact there was a business and facing to be taking more control so that got a little testy. as it worked out thomas pushed ahead and they were giving people jobs, it was all of us to

take a plan. eventually henry found out john door was leaving the justice department and he brought john door work on service corporation which is a business. john door, so it evolved. it became a model and martin luther king pointed to it as a model of the project run by the community and to a large extent it was not even in question but again needed to raise the money and get the support. there is a book on the side

project but is certainly worth looking at. it's not perfect but it was an initiative, it was very well received. finding other ways these, community people hated to be involved in determining what they. >> great. i do have to ask what if questions. bobby kennedy is the great what if of the late 1960s.

they advised against the speeches and he's committed down to this particular lot of white working-class voters and that was limited but the great what if of bobby kennedy, we could have kept the coalition. the white working class people. so people who are optimistic, they think he had that potential. i'm interested in your thinking,

speculation about this what if question. are those people optimistic? are they misplaced? three does not have enough evidence? what to think about the great what if? >> i think it's highly likely to be nominated. if he becomes president -- he was a simple move. i think he inspired people, young people and he also brought tremendous talent committed the way he was. in the 60s with the civil rights movement and young

people, civic activism attracted a lot of people. he wanted to be part of the solution. he would have built in that would have been amazing. you don't want to minimize the challenges but it would have given -- someone said to me once the difference between what if kennedy and nixon -- it's like roosevelt. [laughter] kennedy for the energetic and attractive, robert kennedy was attractive like that they would have been ready to go so there's a lot to change about american

politics and public like in the 60s that began changing and his capacity and ability to bring people and and delegate, it was something that could have been different at the moment compared to when you think about how things turn and the country talks about racism and shows us what's coming. it's so telling but it would have been so different and what he hoped i think would be to move our public life and democracy in a new direction and who knows what that would have brought but it certainly would have been interesting to see. >> okay, great.

lastly, one of these people you described who would have been too young to join the administration but was inspired, barack obama's campaign manager and advise in the white house. bobby kennedy, he is the inspirational figure and when he saw barack obama but think he recalled was how bobby kennedy inspired people so you're right about his ability to aspire, inspire creative people so i'm going to jump around him questions, we talked about outside around that but i want to ask a question you've thought about before.

i'm just going to read the question. how do you reconcile robert kennedy's work on behalf of the committee the work he did leader to support civil rights? >> that's great question and one i had when i started the book. the answer is robert kennedy joined the committee and 53, i guess, first of all, they hated each other. he often into the library and bobby kennedy's job on the committee was to investigate allies trading with communist

china. he was in the study of who was trading at he found out. his work was praised by the washington post, it's a really good thing, important information by the time he was in six months, they were calling head of the staff and robert kennedy quit. before he quit, the mccarthy hearing, he quit and wouldn't work on others while leading the democrats. he was working on the republican side. the side by the democrats he came in right before the mccarthy hearing began and he

challenged him on a number of things and robert kennedy was the one who wrote the report so he had a friendship with mccarthy for ten years earlier, a personal relationship that his work on the committee was not sticking it out. years later he did feel domestic for a lot of people in the 50s but the early 60s, a journalist, some people never forgot or for gave what happened. he would ask him and he said well, i thought it was but i was wrong. so it's a headline grabber, people gravitate to that but my sense is while i was working for the committee, he went to find

out more about the communist party so i think it's more complicated looking back. >> here's an open ended question, did he, robert kennedy ever feel like he did enough? i'm going to phrase it as you don't whether worry whether you worry and of. how did you get a sense how he felt about his work? did he feel like he was doing enough? was he disappointed in what he accomplished? >> he strikes me as a person like that. passion, energy and patience. he understood you solve one problem and there are 12 problems and each one is more

complex than last one. keep looking and learning one person he went, he saw, he listened and he group that describes him. when you think about course correction or whatever but i think he understood human nature and he wasn't self absorbed, he was engaged in the work of the country at a time when urgency was great. i think running for president was interesting to see what brought him to that decision. it's really interesting to get into that. there is no clear path but you have to keep moving and learning and growing.

>> so here is a question, can you discuss his role in the crisis and how it affected him? his visit to the mississippi delta, another turn in his life and understanding. >> that's a great question. it is the biggest crisis they faced. dealing with the governor they have supreme court ruling admitted at the university of mississippi, they had what burke marshall called insurgency on their hands, if this governor could not keep his job so the

buildup was to try to read -- he said he would and they didn't and full scale riot on the campus. the only marshals could shoot and two people were shot and killed and think about the army the army was delayed. robert kennedy said it was the worst night of my life. he and the president sitting in the white house intern payphones, this was way before cell phones. it was just awful. after it was over, someone asked him what he learned, i think this was interesting from the crisis. he's at my brother learned never to have a book on reconstruction

again. the fourth south and the federal government, it brought a to life. kennedy told me about this when robert kennedy back in 1966 invited by law students, like what is this? was going to happen when i go back there? they really wanted him so he went with him and they had protection but people still wanted him. the film is great but the background was there and he gave a wonderful speech there and got a standing ovation with 6000 students but the delta, tripled

1967 hold hearings to investigate war on poverty programs what was happening and one was in jackson and there's a picture in the book, you need black book testifying. he heard about the poverty and the historic project and he wanted to see so he and another, mary right came and took him from washington and it was, he'd never seen it there. he went back and pushed to get more federal aid but it was a

huge impact on him or if i him. it kept him going but he wanted the country to see and they brought people to washington to put a spotlight on this and push for the federal government to use expand the antipoverty program around the country. >> that was a great question. okay, this is another one, this ask them out 1968 late-night meeting in west oakland. 1968 in west oakland and in 1963 baldwin meeting as discussed before, discuss how the approach changed, why he went and how he

tried to translate it into action. i guess the question also, could the open meeting on her to get out the book support for the black community for the primary? >> is certainly helped. that's the other side of the baldwin meeting, understanding this and part of the california primary went to church and open 10:00 at night johnson was with him john when campaigning with him. just be quiet, it's going to be rough but don't worry. he got the started, this is wrong, that is wrong and he

answered and he responded. at one time, he wanted to get off your so angry. no, this is between them and me. and it went on. he was the moderator so they finally brought it to a close and it reached him and there was discussion in the went back and john glenn said it's not too many tonight and he said no, you're going to turn out. the next day in african-american newspaper publisher helped organize wanting to help people joined and worked trying to get

the campaign in there was -- then he went back to oakland the next day. folks in the community had a rally but he understood you have to listen and be there and of course in the primary 96% of the boat turn out. >> when i hear you saying is i forgot the way you phrased earlier and he listened. people were really going to tell him in an aggressive way but you're not doing enough and you reach some of those people even though you don't agree with everything in his approach.

>> one thing about that, of the people with american activists he's not one of the last liberals, he's the last of the great believable. the last of the great believable. >> can you expand on that? what is that mean? >> leaving what he said. he didn't overpromise or make things up, he listened and said what he thought and he said different than political figure so truth telling is believable trusting that. >> here is another question, how much did jfk's assassination open up the world that allowed

bobby to feel and see things different by 1968 that he had prior to november 22, 1968? we relax to speculative? >> when i wrote about that assassination, i was 15 when he was assassinated and i remember it was awful, terrible but writing about it, i experience it in a different way. i knew it would happen but when it happened writing about robert kennedy, i talked to people who knew him then, it was devastating in ways that were indescribable how it impacted

him, people say he changed he was always himself. compassionate but his law professor said, i thought this was interesting. he said he took care of his brother, he didn't as they worked in tandem and he said once he was done, he said bobby became more and more himself. he moved into his life bringing her concerns he developed so it's interesting to think about that but as for the rest of his life he lost but that notion couldn't change him. he continued on and moved to put

our the energy into things he cared about. >> back to the critical questioning, the question goes like this -- how should we look at kennedy's complicated relationship with martin luther king? ... you know they control our

economy but the whole lebanon something and talking -- i mean i don't want to get too far into it but the pressure to on kennedy and the evidence that he had that martin luther king said he wasn't represented so finally october 20 of 63 he agreed to a temporary, 30-day wiretap on kings -- in atlanta and new york and if you read about it he did it and a couple of reasons cooper had things on the

president and the civil rights bill. this is not to burn their fighting to get the civil rights bill moved to pass the judiciary committee. he came to the connection and that was it and so on i'm speculating here again president kennedy was -- and president johnson the man who would become president had different feelings of king so yeah it came late and i hope the questioner will think about it in the book because i really gave it a lot of thought and it certainly does not diminish, in fact fast-forward martha kennedy and martin luther

king become much more closely aligned on poverty and the concerns about the war in vietnam and there were hearings on conditions of the city which kennedy was a part of which he and king argued poetically about the conditions and what to do and so that relationship grew and they were both so closely believed in what they thought were the problems and the solutions were very close and the war in vietnam as well. so i came to see how their relationship developed in 1964 and 65. i mean it was never distant. they weren't at odds but they become much more closely aligned

around issues of poverty and the war. >> okay. i'm just going to read the whole thing. from the moment i read robert kennedy's work he always seemed like the brain to me. he wanted to keep working but was a bit reluctant to be the image and to be the public figure. even after john's murder robert continues with this theory a little water beyond the complicated relationship with lbj. what do you think was bobby's breaking point the moment when he understood he had been stripped of power to fight for the senate and then in the race for the presidency? >> that's a great question.

he and his team were critical to getting us to go through. but by 6016 to 1966 he campaigns in the midterm for other candidates around the country and the press said he had become a terrific public speaker charismatic really, really, well i mean he was fully engaged in the work of politics the senate and i think at the time it was noted that day that robert kennedy stopped wearing a tie

when they were in latin america and he was a couple of years it was estimated so i think there was a gradual -- they are always working but coming into his own certainly by 66 he had fully come into his own. >> here's a different kind of question. what role did robert kennedy's catholic faith play in his political life? >> i think it's fate. our formative. he went to church on sundays and before that i think he had a deep faith and he was -- social justice i mean, yeah to identify

specifically moments in the book where i look at that he was a very deeply spiritual person and his catholic face was the most important thing in his life and how he moved forward i think that was the important part of his strength. but i think and you know he did not hesitate to challenge things. he was his own person. he had that kind of faith and i think that influenced him. but he respected that public service in his life.

>> we have three minutes and we have time for one last question. it's an appropriate last question two. the questioner asked about the title of your book so the question is can professor sullivan comment about our selection of the title of this book "justice rising" robert kennedy's america in black and white. >> now i know what it means. and america in black and white describes the book. but just as rising is a conversion and this period first of all it had been going on for decades but it had broken into this true -- true that demanded

a national attention and action and then it impacted the cold where political culture and energized american engagement particularly a young -- among young people and the administration coming in so together all these different forces that come together justice is rising and it has an impact that is difficult to measure. we are sitting here talking about this today and not everything was achieved in a decade that justice was rising in ways that were formative and brought tremendous lessons but again it's a conversion and

mr. kennedy is an integral part of that. >> actually this is the book "justice rising" robert kennedy's america in black and white by patricia sullivan. it's an amazing book that i've read the whole thing and i recommend it and as you said at various points it's a really complicated question mobilizing all the evidence around it and we sort out things in its well worth reading. so thank you for the kennedy library form and thank you to the audience for coming and for your wonderful questions and

thank you to the kennedy library library for inviting both of us to. >> my thanks to you all and thank you ken and thank you everybody. >> i want to welcome you to the historical