clearly we were not the only ones who thought you two would be great in conversations together. thank you all again, this video will be available on our youtube channel and a couple of days. and again you can order signed copies of the book. thank you all, have a great night. ♪ ♪ weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feat. every saturday american history tv documents marca story. book tv brings latest nonfiction books and authors. including buckeye broadband. >> ♪ ♪ >> okay broadband from these

television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> good evening i'm alan price on behalf of all of my library on foundation i'm delighted to welcome all of you for watching tonight's program online. thank you for joining us this evening. i like to acknowledge the generous support of the underwriters for the candy writers form sponsor bank of america and or media boston globe and wb ui. public program, on civil rights and social justice but are supported in part by at&t. we look forward to a robust question and answer. this evening, pull up instructions on the screen submitting your instrument during e-mail or comment during our youtube page during this program had were so

grateful for robert f kennedy's work delighted to introduce tonight's speakers. i'm pleased to extend a warm virtual welcome back to the library to patricia sullivan the professor she is the author and editor books including lift every voice the naacp and the making of the civil rights movement. days of hope, race and democracy in a new deal era. and freedom writer, letters from the civil rights. her new book is justice rising, robert kennedy's america in black and white. i'm also pleased to welcome back our moderator for this evening's discussion, kenneth mack is the inaugural professor of law and affiliate

professor of history at harvard university. his research and teaching have focused on america legal and constitutional history. with a particular emphasis on race relation, politics and economic life. he is the author of representing the creation of the civil rights and coeditor of the new black, what has changed and what has not with the race in america. welcome back to both of you, thank you for joining us this evening. >> thank you alan. it is a pleasure to be here with my old friends, we talk about her amazing book, justice rising robert kennedy's america in black-and-white. just for the viewers, professor sullivan and i are going to have that conversation until about 7:00 o'clock. as director prices just

mentioned should be instructions on the screen. around 7:00 p.m. or so will transition over too q and a. >> perfect. let's just get started. >> i would like to start with the origins of this book. a book about bobby kennedy and civil rights. for most of your career been historian of the civil rights movement was written about grass roots activists about individuals in houston, the southern writer and activist, organizations like the naacp bobby kennedy, may be a bit of an unusual topic. what drew you to write a book about someone who has hardly been overlooked, bobby

kennedy, what did you hope to accomplish when you started this project? >> thanks it's great to be with you virtually. and should be at the library for this event. that is a terrific question. there's playbooks about bobby kennedy as he furthers thing from my mind. covering generations have been in the struggle civil rights since the reconstruction era. my last look on the naacp to about 1960 really opened up the national framework of justice and civil rights. it was an amazing project to work on.

struggle to realize the constitutional and how black migration to the decade is re- shaping the united states the decision really accelerates in the south we have the cities in 1960. i wanted to take a fresh look at the 1960s. it is a national issue, and struggles around the country. we tend to look at the south

and then look at urban issues after 1964. i started reading, wrote a book proposal and robert kennedy popped up in a different situation. i work with as a literary agent, and about bobby kennedy write a book about him? i didn't plan to write a book about him. but i realized as a read more deeply and looked at robert kennedy, through the context of the racial transformation of the 1960s he moved through the decade in a way that would allow me too explore, to disrupt what we know and look at the larger context of racial change during that decade. and at the same time, i got to know really had no idea.

think the aspect of his public life is really central, had been largely overlooked. it has been an amazing journey i have learned quite a bit. [inaudible] [inaudible] snapshots of the 60s that was through bobby kennedy. vincent kennedy himself, kennedy is somebody who people think they know. he is this iconic figure, people have written about him. other people have written about him and his brother. so what were the prevailing views of kennedy and civil rights and we started this project? what remains to be said about

that. >> great question. the prevailing views were he does not seem as central people said he didn't do enough he wasn't integrated into the context african-american struggle and civil rights activities. and also the challenges in urban areas become evident he really was on the margins of much of the work done in the civil rights movement. all of these works are great that have been done. as i tell my students, what you find in the past is dependent on the questions you ask. i was asking different kinds of questions. as you mentioned another

biographies i learned a lot from, they looked to his life in a different kind of context. now that the book is done, i am surprised all of us commit. i've been working on american history if you seek grassroots it's a different dimension. it really is a fresh take and surprisingly changes. >> this is a book about a journey. it is america's journey through the 1960s. it's bobby kennedy's journey through the 1960s. so, i want you to tell the reader a little bit what the journey is like.

where american begin he and the americans are involved in the learn from this journey. but you i will try to keep this brief. when i realize, i did not know how the book would turn out. i realized he was significant in ways that had not been explored yet. with eternal general as the presidential candidates, it highlights the richness of what i was exploring. so i realized he was a major force, the civil rights movement created a demand.

it is a diverse group with sit ins and 1960s. what i found is robert kennedy and his brother the president, not only did they respond to the demand that urgent but they respond to the opportunities created. so the question is, what prepared robert kennedy to see and to act in a will it really broke away from traditional politics and public leadership , the kennedy library it was my home for so much of this. the resources there are enormously rich. and so i did some background up to 1960. their characteristics about him, he is compassionate, he had a questioning spirit. there are things about him that are not open. i need told the truth.

so there's one incident early on which is really interesting to me at the university of virginia in 1951 was the third year he invited to come speak. he just won a nobel peace prize, he was noted for rights activists and was a remarkable human being. he said he would come but only if the meeting was not segregated. he thought that was ridiculous. he had just fought world war ii and was aware of the court decisions in higher education. so he pushed, talked with students, faculty also the president and they agreed to have a meeting the first

meeting of that kind. 1500 people came. that was not an epiphany. the african-american struggle, king, malcolm x, baldwin, things are heating up. white people are moving in parallel was a pivot point. [inaudible] ignites mass protests and now

1960 when john kennedy ran ahead of the of trying to figure out how to get the black votes, now they have seen the country and turmoil in a positive way. in all of the energy coming from it. i will try to speed up in that year in 1960 there's evidence of him looking at urban areas. he wants to win, he was a campaign manager. by the time becomes attorney general in 1961 he is ready to see the complexity and the depth of the problem as he moves, he is oriented towards

race as attorney general he has an amazing justice department. amazing is the wrong word. they quadruple the number of lawyers in the civil rights division. they respond to what's happening in the south. they are like today southern governors defying the law, by 1961 he says about alabama after the freedom ride talking about the governor those are at war with this country. maybe i should stop there.

it's also looking, let me mention one thing. the spring of 1961 starting to look at the problems of the identity for young people but the problem of young people living in poverty and how to respond to that and begins organizing some community programs to provide support, job training and the rest. that's very much in the national spotlight. what urban areas are like with

this deeply entrenched that's gone across several decades baldwin is writing about that. long answer. >> this is a great. i want to pick up on something you just said. fairly early on and 1961, kennedy is thinking about what we might call entrenched racial inequality. promote racial problems in the north, and of course this book, justice rising appears in the moment we are in, there is a large debate and across the world about how entrenched is racial inequality? what should we do about it? what is the perspective of people of color particularly african americans in the

struggle against it. should black people be at the center of the struggle? you are describing kennedy being at the center at a different moment but the story, i want to start with the story of this famous in a number of african-american figures famously james baldwin, lorraine hansberry, and other people. describe that meeting for our listeners. what happens, what does kennedy learn from it and why did you choose that as the opening thing to frame the book? >> that was one of the incidents that drew me and

that month birmingham exploded. things are a fevered pitch. the administration begins cap to move you got to do something. gregory has recommended the book marshall. they had met at the white house he and bobby met, they talked and said they should talk again.

they decided to have this meeting in new york. his recollection of this meeting most politicians baldwin had been wracked with. kennedy went to the meeting thinking he would get some advice or insight into how to deal with the problems. there was no segregation there was entrance segregation. and so he goes to the meeting, his intention is to let them

know the political challenges the kennedy administration faces. they are real, sort of like today. : : : it would have been beaten, horrible down there. this is 63 so he's on the front line and he was in new york with a broken jaw and other injuries he endured so he's sitting and start likely and he says this room, he calls about not doing

enough and kennedy to the others no one knows he's the one who comes from the battle. what it showed his mission cap. this whole thing so it's all the things the federal done and everybody and there's no transcript, i put together from recollection. the gist of it is they sat silently, she didn't think she

got it. it was described, white and black coming together and she said if you get it, you're in trouble because you and your brother are the best. it was quite a statement and he sat there for three hours okay, we are done and they leave and there he is so everybody was sure it was the most sporadic violent group that they were doing so that happened then and people say that changed kennedy. by 1963, he knew things were

awful. but it was a thing the one thing that came true, he said you served no, why would i do something like that? but then "afterwards" in a couple of days he's had if i was in his shoes, i'd probably do that. so he heard him and to me it captures the attention -- the country is on the verge of an explosion and what to do, how to fix it and as you say, it's like what you do? i think what you see was everybody had to do it and they understood what the movement had

done, pushing the issues forward they realized the main part of the job was talk to white people. talk to majority they were the problem because after the meeting somebody said not long after the meeting, they were a little shook up. they said will you meet with black groups again? he said yes of course, you are not the problem, it's the white people. the white people are denying black people right it's a dramatic meeting and i open the book up with it because i forget shot of that moment but two days later the challenge of emigrating the university of alabama. what do you think terms of how i approach that meeting and of

course at the end of the book the library how he looks back on represent, low in he others have helped it wasn't personal will, just tired of having school the white political pressure of course those are realities public figures have to deal with. >> it's interesting, one thing is i read the book, it does

resume with me about the kennedy black people racial liberals, their on backside of doctor but white people and black people don't really do that. it's a pretty frank exchange. maybe one they didn't expect to have. >> i'm sure. it's important for listeners and what the country was like, they were ignorant. there is no interaction or content, something to be mindful

of and yes they saw the black movement as a change but they also saw and understood in patients and when robert kennedy sees young people living under horrible conditions, no job, no way out, he understood that and explosive. how to deal with that and in his own way in washington d.c., working in a personal way trying to engage with these communities in 1966 but it shows okay, it's bad, how do you grab hold, how

do you begin to address these? the african-american -- the black movement finally forced it into the center of national attention. got to respond bobby kennedy, they saw it, learn from it and understand from history. the understood history and continue to engage history as they try to understand. a crisis 100 years in the making looking back and the betrayal. they saw that and realized the impact of time in the situation. >> you said earlier one of which that they probably didn't do

enough. kind of realistically engaging these, they were able to do this but with bobby kennedy, i may describe this and accurately, feel free to correct me. it's about the campaign and attorney general of the united states. it's a pivotal moment to the civil rights movement and d.o.j. department of justice is doing a number of things which you document in the book. it's a public figure, he's able to push for ground public issues and then he runs for president and along the way he's doing things like this project which i'm sure he will talk about a little bit as the session continues.

you want to list some of the principal, people say didn't do enough so what did he do? taking d.o.j. editor running for president, what are the main things we can say kennedy accomplished in civil rights? >> we have to move in the context and it's not just what he did, it's what created the opportunity to do. building that team from marshall john door, they create a fair operation of civil rights going into the deep south and litigate voting rights. it's like what we did, you've got and getting to see us close

so created that so the justice department and again, i don't think it has fully explored to look at exactly what they did, what they were up against, how they move in 1962. introduce a voting rights bill and they knew they had little chance but said we have to do something. testimony bobby kennedy goes up back and forth, back and forth this could happen an important addition if you have a sixth grade education, a literacy test. that is a major way they have that he tried. what you tell the people?

you tell them it's never going to be a civil rights movement democratic movement. and i'll pivot from that tooth the smart bill, that moment when all hell breaks loose everywhere. maybe country now will be able to get back but what he's going to do is a "the white house small groups and get people engaged according to the civil rights and they write that bill. it's unlikely we can get bill through but we have to try. he also said people think a law will make this problem go away, they are out of their minds. he understood but they needed that. just that alone, two and a half

years president kennedy was in the white house and body was general at 64 book by the strength of 63, mobilizing support and figuring out a strategy to get through bipartisan. by the time they go to dallas, that bill is on its way and that basically is the bill they signed into law. right there, there are several good books but if you put it in the context of this and other things, that was his city, again same thing the district of columbia and what happening to young people and opportunities and the pool is closed, it's

been closed for nine years. the d.c. commission can't get the money because of the senators in the budget of d.c., he pushed it but he raised the money to have it restored. he started, he organized a job program through high school kids in our private sector so he's doing things on a microlevel. he was committed what was happening to those children? schools were closed for five years, 1700 american out of school, no public schools. that's what he and the president both committed to. at one time he said do whatever you can, whatever, just do something and they created preschool as they litigate the

case with the county and they create a way to raise the money and it opened ironically, it opened september 1963 the day after the birmingham bomb. this is the explosive but of people have that, people say that haven't done the work of looking instead of the judge thing into history is complex and rich and by the time he became a senator, he understood a lot and he focuses attention on the urban and he was the one person after it exploded august 1965, more on the political spectrum, he said obey the law

when the law is used against them. understanding and spoken. the support, the government working directly with communities to begin to repair the damage of the decades of segregation and poverty. there is no quick answer, you have to move through their and also understand what's going on, the political challenges, understand the many ways, not just one thing but many different ways and the people worked with worked with him and president kennedy.

in my book, i spent time on president kennedy on what the issue was. again you have to find the opening and two and a half years they achieved quite a bit if you look at the content of the. what was done and what was attempted. mommy civil rights bill. >> i hear you saying a previous discussion on kennedy is being educated by being exposed to problems of african-americans.

trying to aggressively protect black voting rights itself. kind of thought the battle was won but we are back at it again. these things that are the next stage of the movement, encounters with black people, educated. things like pushing for civil rights when the democratic party is still the party of the south segregationist and likely to get it through. later trying to think about problems of an engine exaggerate but there is only 60s liberals and a historian and it was ms.

consensus around crime and that was the main public policy directed at evan problems and that's mass incarceration rising not to say kennedy was wholly apart from that but he linked with the other side. >> i would argue he was. he realized it to him, the most important thing with the conditions in these urban areas he understood this and he said that's not the solution. in fact, that aggravates the problem. direct so i think about this book, this book is where she

picks up. the fact is, everything she describes happens kennedy and martin luther king the war on poverty programs can't stand to request help people in the communities themselves. schools and create jobs and all that. it's a different take analysis of the situation. the analysis of the people, and lyndon johnson who saw this as a law and order issue but they didn't do anything. the war on vietnam so i think

you have a different analysis which is important and he's not the only one. there are many people who saw things that way but it's unique white public figure. he wanted to incorporate this project to support the cultural development and he's just one person but use forth putting this in the other direction which he documents in great detail. we are back today. >> i am interested in, if any,

bobby kennedy and his brother, john and of course president kennedy was assassinated in 1963, there's always that what if? we don't really have the evidence because we don't actually have him being exposed to the post 1963 development but part of what you are saying is kennedy is seeing things early, as early as 1961, maybe a lot of other public figures are seen that yet. you get the sense that bobby is different than john and his inability to see the problem but maybe just don't have enough evidence because kennedy is assassinated, colonel.

>> marshall said he understood he met with him at the kennedy library, john f. kennedy company with him in his office, he was a kennedy fan and he said he went to lunch, he understood everything and what marshall said, he wants to change things and there are great quotes in the book, he supported equality and full rights and he wouldn't be the normal typical politician. when he pushes for this, he said republicans but this is like war. but they saw the way it's being

manipulated by politicians to exacerbate white racial fear and resentment. i think he understood it and the speech he gave in hawaii right before where he found the problem as a national problem. and our cities on fire. we have got to say we are and discrimination and full rights. i think it's a great question. i don't have a final answer but there were reports of people but different personalities, different ways of engaging i do think robert kennedy felt this

intensely against compassionate, passionate and he gave it his all and makes it. >> it's interesting because of the kennedy, particularly president kennedy that he was beholden to the senate, they spoke of this and after he's elected sending him pens, you have to issue the executive order. indirectly the administration and department of justice so why

the misconception? >> that's a very good question because it's incorrect, i would argue that. in may of 62 and how it's made out and the civil rights, the power of southern democrats, you can only do what you can do. they state that they would jeopardize reelection in 1964. i'm doing it. this is the only people who thought he should do it with his brother and got a for his brother. who's wanting to put his

political, charismatic leader and they are in the country that they do this but it would be tough for seven democrats. we shouldn't be judging -- to say that i think without digging in doing the work and contextualizing it as a political figure, and vomit on your sword doesn't move it forward. some quarters, we are looking at them today, it very tough. how do you navigate this? there are other places at the state and local level, many ways people can continue but

depending on your elected official, not about winning again but accomplishing something. the country was and the late 60s sees it. >> it's much more because before you wrote your book. >> i'm not trying to put them up -- they moved in their time and they connected with forces moving the country, challenging the country and moving forward. not the great leader, it's about

how you function and there is a law, there are so many ways you have to face this and move the change in people's attitudes and ideas and i have a much better appreciation of that. i thought i do knew it didn't matter so i can, it's the context and looking at the history in that measure. >> before we get to questions, i want to maybe talk about one thing in your book you mentioned briefly earlier in the conversation, near the end of the book you talk about several

corporations, i can't remember the names of all of them but call it a redevelopment corporation. it's an interesting -- i'd like you to talk about what is supposed to do, what's interesting about it, it becomes a struggle and white people with money, who's going to control the thing? eventually frank thomas winds up being in charge of it, you just got to narrate that story and how kennedy about who's going to run it. >> another example, work on poverty is shrinking, sandra from new york, he really wanted

to do something, something he could do. we have to act. so he goes so they can walk through, talk to people and talk to local leaders and sees the conditions and decides they want to develop a product here. robert kennedy had a real talent for attracting and hiring smart and committed people. he had to younger aides, young, very bright energetic, in line with what kennedy was concerned about self they take the study and tom johnson, very important in this.

they just explore, all kinds of people working in cities to see what might work. they developed this corporation which was -- they also managed to get funding putting to help in that committee with joe clark and basically to do what was needed to be done. they develop a project to entities, one is the community, community board representing the concerns of the community of what should be done. looking at everything, housing and education, a number of products be developed over time, to redevelop the community.

getting a board of corporate people to help raise money and provide price and robert kennedy was not right but he appealed to a number of people in cap tremendous support. the names are flying out of my head right now but an impressive group of people involved in finance. what was happening, their interest was i think motivated by that as well, something had to be done and kennedy emphasized that so they the community was in the project and as he said, this is life, right? who's in charge of the community? there are women who'd been working for ever they helped

senator kennedy but then there were younger people, militant people and that blew up. then when things finally -- they grew up in this, kennedy met him, and aid to robert kennedy, they had both grown up and it and he agreed to have the community, he didn't like the fact that they were a business group and seemed taking for control so i got a little testy. as it worked out, thomas pushed ahead and they began doing homes, getting a job and they had ways to make a plan. eventually, kennedy found out

john door was leaving the justice department and he brought john door to work on it and develop a service corporation. with john door coming out of the civil rights movement, eventually frank thomas so it involves. and it became a model and martin luther king pointed it to as a model of the project run by the community. increasingly that was not even in question but they needed to raise the money and support so there is a terrific book on the project that is certainly worth

looking at. it's not perfect but it was very well received. just finding other ways with the war on poverty, local and community people needed to determine what they needed. >> okay, great. i do have to ask a want of question. obviously you've thought about this, bobby kennedy is the great what if of the great 1950s and as you say advisors advise against civil rights speeches in

places like indiana and you've got to moderate a little bit they get a lot of white working-class voters and some from the south, it's kind of limited but bobby kennedy, perhaps he's a person who could have kept the liberal corporation, ability to speak out and go over to some working-class which is the question we are faced with today. some people are optimistic, they think he had that potential. i'm interested in your thinking, speculation about this what if

question. are those people optimistic, are they misplaced? is the optimism and we just don't have enough evidence? just thinking about the great what if bobby kennedy. >> i think it's highly likely he would have been nominated. if he had become president, was up the new. not totally new but he inspired people to public service, young people and he also brought tremendous talent, committed the way he was. in the 60s with the civil rights movement and young people, civic activism attracted

a lot of people. he wanted to be part of the solution so he had that power because he had become president and he would have built it in that would have been amazing. he don't want to minimize it because of this but it would have -- someone said to me once the difference between what if kennedy or nixon, it's like kennedy and roosevelt. kennedy had a roosevelt slayer in terms of creative, confident and attract. robert kennedy would have attracted people like that they would have been in the late 60s ready to go. there's a lot that had to change in american politics public life

in the 60s that began changing and his capacity and ability to bring people in, it was something that would have made a huge difference compared to when you think about how things turned and talk about entrenched racism and showing us what's coming. there's no telling what's different and what he would have hoped to move our public life and democracy in a new direction and he knows what that would have brought but it certainly would have been interesting to see. >> okay, great. go to the questions. one of these people who described what happened to young

to join the administration but was inspired by bobby kennedy. barack obama's campaign manager, advisor the white house and bobby kennedy, he's the inspirational figure and when he saw barack obama, for thing he recalled was how bobby kennedy inspired people. i certainly right about his ability to inspire young creative people. i'm going to jump around the question, the question about kennedy outside and we talked a little bit around that but i want to ask a question you've thought about before and i'm going to read the question. how do you reconcile robert kennedy's work we have of

mccarthy's un-american activities committee? what's the work he did later to support civil rights? >> that's a great question. that's when i had when i started the book. the answer is that robert kennedy joined the committee and 53, i guess. first of all, they hated each other. they were high around the same time and libraries and embassies and stuff, kennedy's job on the was to investigate allies from a training with communist china. he was asking questions from his

doing a study of who was trading and he found out, i think britain. this is a very good thing, it's important information. by the time he was in six months, mccarthy made head of the staff robert kennedy quit so before he quit, they almost -- the mccarthy hearings -- oh yeah, so he quit and he worked on another committee, i think he was hired by the democrats. he was hired by the democrats and he came in when the mccarthy hearings began and challenged him on a number of things and robert kennedy was the one who wrote the report so he had a

friendship with mccarthy and his family for ten years earlier, there is a personal relationship but his work on the committee was not digging out communism and that sort of thing and years later, he did feel a domestic -- a lot of people felt that in the 60s but the early 60s, a journalist, some people never forgave robert kennedy that his friends were like how did this happen? he said i thought -- and i was wrong. so it's a headline grabber. people kind of gravitate toward that but my sense when i was working for the committee, the former head of the communist party to find out curiosity

questions and a nice meeting so i think it's more complicated looking back. >> here is an open ended question the question is, did he, robert kennedy, ever feel like he did enough? i guess i'm going to phrase this as don't worry about whether we are doing enough, how did you get a sense of how he felt about the work he was doing? he seemed like he felt like he was doing enough? was he disappointed in what he accomplished? >> he strikes me as a person -- while we were doing this energy and patients, he understood, he said you solve one problem, there are 12 more and more complex than the one before. just keep moving, keep learning, keep looking.

one civil rights activist said he went, he saw, he listened and he grew. that describes him. did he do enough? did he make mistakes and thinking about that and whatever but i think he understood and he wasn't self absorbed. he was engaged in the life of the country, the work of the country at a time when urgency was great so i think running for president, it's interesting to see what brought him to that decision because you don't know. it's really interesting but there's no clear path but you had to keep trying and keep moving and keep learning and growing so he did that.

>> here's another question. can you discuss his role in the old crisis and how it affected him? also the mississippi delta, was there another turn in his life and understanding? >> that's a great question. that was the most, that was the biggest crisis the administration faced. dealing with the governor, they have supreme court ruling james admitted in mississippi, they had what marshall called a potential insurgency, interesting word on their hands. this governor did not do his job. the buildup to that to try to

cash he said he would and then he didn't and marshall -- full-scale riot on the campus. meredith was protected from a purely marshall, only if meredith was frightened but two people were shot and killed. they called up the army and the army was delayed. robert kennedy said it was the worst night of my life. he of the president and their aid were sitting in the white house calling from payphones, way before cell phones. it was awful. after it was over, someone asked what his brother had learned, i think it's interesting from the crisis and he said my brother learned never to believe another book on reconstruction again. the old school interpretation. the federal government, you

know. the trip to the delta -- let me add one other thing because kennedy told me about this about when robert kennedy was back in 1966 invited to come back and he was like what's this? what's going to happen when i go back there? it four years later. they really wanted him so he went. they had protection but people in the state still hated him for the wall street wanted him and he went in there was -- it was great but the background there and he gave a wonderful speech and a standing ovation and students in the auditorium so that was another, the delta in

1967, they would hold hearings to investigate war on poverty program was having all testifying and he heard my will and project and he wanted to see so he and another mary right, she's the reason they went because she testified in washington and he never seen poverty like he saw there. he went back and he was pushed to get more aid to have a huge impact on.

it kept him going but he wanted to come and they had hearings people in washington to try to put a spotlight on this push for the federal government to expand the anti- poverty programs around the country. a great question. >> okay, this is another one. this asks about our 1968 late-night meeting in west oakland. 1968 in west oakland 1963 baldwin meeting, one discussed before. discussed how it approaches change, why he went and how he tried to translate the session into action. i guess the question are wants

to ask, did the open meeting product to get off the boat for the black community for the primary? >> is certainly helped. about the other side of the meeting, he understood people angry and he was going to catch it. part of the california primary, he went to the church in oakland at 10:00 p.m. and john brennan who had been campaigning with him and off they go he says to them just be quiet, it's going to be rough but don't worry. he got up there and he started. this is wrong, that's wrong, you need to do this, why didn't you do that? he answered and talked about the

move and just kind of unloaded on him. he responded at one time johnson wanted to get out he was so angry. it's between them and me, he said. and it went on. the moderator, they finally brought to a close and there is a sense of it reaching him and there was a discussion and they went back and john glenn said well, i don't think you've got too many votes tonight and he said no, it's going to turn out. they are going to work and the next day in african-american newspaper publisher to help organize people calling him, wanting to help and yes, people joined and worked the vote campaign and it was -- then he went back to oakland the next

day, you're supposed to go somewhere else if he spoke to the community and they had a rally. it was a great moment but he understood you have to listen and be there and of course in the primary, 96% of the african vote turn out so that's a good observation. >> what i hear you saying, i forgot the way you phrased earlier, he came and did this and he listened. it seemed like he is continually listening to people work willing to tell it in an aggressive way that you are not hearing about and he reached some of them even though they didn't agree with everything in his particular approach. >> one thing, one of the people

in the part said he is not one of the last liberals, he's the last of the great believable. the last of the great believable. >> could you expand on that? what does that mean. >> for what he said, he didn't overpromise, he didn't make things up, he said what he thought he was a different kind of political figure so truth telling is believable and trusting them. >> here is another question, how much did jfk's assassination open about that allowed bobby to feel and see things differently

by 1968 when he had prior to november 22, 1963? >> brevets to speculative, i don't know. >> when i wrote about his assassination, i was 13 when he was assassinated and i remember it was awful, terrible but writing about it, i experienced it in a different way. when it happened, writing about robert kennedy in that moment, i talked to people who knew him then and it was devastating in ways that are indescribable but how it impacted him, people say,

people closest to him said no, he was always himself. his law professor said, i hope this was interesting, he said he was a back to his brother, he compared him to his brother. they worked in tandem and he said once he was gone, he said bobby became more and more himself. he moved into his public life and bringing the concerns he had developed so it's interesting to think about but it was the rest of his life but he lost but that notion didn't change, i continued on.

>> okay. here's another question, the critical pain of questioning, this is one you thought about before. how should we look at kennedy's complicated relationship with martin luther king? with wiretapping him. following hoover's instructions against king. i figure that is about the fact that robert kennedy authorized wiretaps of martin luther king. ashley think about that? >> you should read my book. [laughter] i was concerned about that. very complicated. hoover's pressure and power, he knew but hoover kept pressing.

i don't want to get too deeply into it but the pressure -- hoover's pressure on kennedy and the evidence he had that martin luther king said levinson and all of this so finally in october 20, 63 he agreed to a temporary 30 day wiretap at the into and new york. if you read about this, so he did it. there were a couple of reasons people speculate. hoover had things on the president on his private life and the civil rights bill, they

are fighting to get the civil rights bill moved through the house judiciary committee. if he leaked to the press as he would often do, the communist connection and whatever, that would be it so i think it was an attempt -- i'm speculating here but president kennedy was killed a month later, president johnson and lyndon johnson was close to him and had no problem with king. it came late and give it a lot of thought and it's a little more and it certainly not diminished. martin luther king and robert kennedy became much more closely aligned, concerns about the war

in vietnam and a wonderful scene kennedy was a part of this that relationship grew and they both closely -- what they saw was a problem and the solution and were very close. it was interesting to see their relationship develop after 64 or 65. it was never -- they weren't at odds but they became much more closely aligned around the issues of property and the war.

>> this is both questions, i went to read the whole thing. from the moment i read robert kennedy's work, it always seemed like the brain to meet. someone who could think keep things in order and keep working but a bit reluctant to be the image. maybe a public figure even after john's murder, robert continued over the longer beyond the relationship of lbj. what you think was obvious when he understood the strength and power to fight for the senate the race for the presidency? >> that's a great question.

when he stated, he and his team brought the civil rights bill through civic carried it for completion but i 66 -- 1962 he campaigned in the midterm for other candidates around the country. the press see him as transformed, he'd be a terrific public speaker, energetic, charismatic, really -- well, just fully engaged in politics, the senate. i think it was just time. adam noted the day robert kennedy stopped wearing a black tie and it was when they were in america, it was a couple of

years after he was assassinated so i think it was a gradual from always working but coming into his own. certainly by 66 had fully come into his own. >> all right, here is a different kind of question. what role did robert kennedy's catholic faith play in his political life. >> i think his faith was informative. he went to church on sundays but it's more than that, i think he had a deep faith and of the social justice i think -- it's hard to identify specifically moms in the book where i look at that but he was a deeply

spiritual person and his catholic faith was a prominent force in his life. i think how he moved forward and what he achieved, i think i was an important part of his strength with other factors. and he was a kind of catholic who did not hesitate to challenge -- he was his own person, he had that kind of faith, responsible for and i think that influence was in him but he had that for the poor, public service, living fact kind of life.

>> okay, we've got three minutes, time for one last question. i think this is an appropriate last question. this question asked about your title. this question is can professor solomon comment on her selection of the title of the book? justice rising justice writing rising in black and white. >> just describing we had earlier, but now i know what it means. the robert kennedy american black and white in our country in that way but justice rising is convergence in this period of personal the civil rights struggle, it's been going out for decades but by 1960 it has been woven into this true in a way demand of national attention and action and it impacted,

broke through the cold war political culture and energized american engagement particularly among young people and the administration coming in and being in sync with that. together all of these forces that come together, justice is rising and it has an impact that difficult to measure. we are sitting here talking about this today and not everything was you have is backlash but justice was rising in ways that were formative and historically significant and i think it's tremendous license but again, it's a convergence and the kennedys were part of

that helped contribute to that kind of movement. >> this is a great question to end on. this is a book, justice rising robert kennedy black and white by patricia sullivan pretty amazing book, i read the whole thing, i recommend are listeners get out and read it. as you said, at various points, there's some complicated questions. the book is mobilizing all the evidence around it. it's well worth reading. so thank you. thank you to the audience for coming and for your wonderful questions and thank you to the kennedy library for inviting both of us to appear. >> my thanks to all.

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