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television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> michaels is with us, he served as the director of the occupational safety and health administration in 2009 - toy 70 is assistant century labor the longest serving ocean headings also currently a professor at george washington university school of public health and professor michaels, welcome to the program. >> thank you so much for having me on again. >> were going to talk about vaccine mandates in particular about the federal vaccine but you served the longest serving osha head from 2009 during the obama administration - 2017 and probably in terms of what osha how do they enforce workplace rules and regulations across the country. >> i'm glad to answer the question so it many people do not understand what it is and how it works in osha is 50 years

old, essentially said his employers responsibility have a requirement to provide a workplace free of recognize serious hazards - his job is to make sure employers follow the law pretty osha does lots of things many tools for most powerful tool osha has is a standard, rules this is employers must do certain things to perfect and to protect workers and that is powerful because most employers are law-abiding and the government agency, they say holy going to be the loan comply pretty and so osha has emergency standard around it testing for example will have a big effect without any sort of enforcement. then by osha beyond these rules in osha does have inspectors, tolabor department has hundredsf

more inspectors as well and then they go out in the morning the workplaces that with thehe hazas and conditions and certainly, these new standard will be enforced by the inspectors for the most part, it will be self enforcing the employers turn to do the right thing because the want to follow the law. >> osha is now 51 year agency, 51 -year-old agency created by the occupational safety and health activism 1970 rated and if you're also that 850 inspectors in osha. that is a lot of workers for one their 30 million workers, that is about one for every 70000 workers in this country. in a job that requires the plate full written a fairly full already, how will the administration be able to enforce this new mandate predict. >> this right osha has been over resourced and as you said, far

too few inspectors and estimates are one or six years for the osha to visit every workplace but as i said, posting this is not going to need to be enforced, employers are covered by this will do the right thing but the other thing is, the workers is the improbable call osha pretty they will let osha know that there employers not doing the right thing in washington follow up by sending an inspector person winning e-mail or phone call and often than the will of the records so they can be creative to be more efficient so certainly just on enforced by only the inspectors splendidly going to the it wille we do think have a huge effect certainly seven employers but as i said, most employers will do the right thing and some already start trying to implement this new requirement predict. >> i would love to hear from our listeners and viewers on the issue of vaccine mandates and we will hear from the president

momentarily and i would like to hear from you as well and the lights for the eastern in central time zones 2,027,488,002 of 27488001 is the one for the mountain pacific regions and citizens accent (202)748-8002 in our guest is david of michael's promotion from 2009 - 2017 and the longest-serving head of osha during your tenure, david michael's what was the most difficult or controversial issue they had a phase in terms of workplace regulation. >> one of the things that certainly took a long time to develop is the regulation around - very big issue of construction sites because of the jackhammers and the saws. and the causes and they can cause lung cancer notions standards are in process, very slow one and actually took 20

years to get the standard out which started in 1997 rated we headed out in 2016. it was controversial because employers always have an osha standard and they always suppose it and say things differently really are not true. ... ... and we will not be able

to meet this standard but what we see time and time again is these are very reasonable standards. they are not burdensome on businesses. these are reasonable standards, and i think that we will set w up with the standard as well. we can expected to come out in the next couple of weeks. >> let's hear from the president last week on the upcoming aruba president will issue. he spoke about last week, let's listen but clicks the labor department soon going to be issued an emergency rule for companies with 100 or more employees to implement vaccination requirements among their workforce. every day we see more businesses implementing vaccine requirements and the mounting data shows they work. businesses and organizations implementing requirements are seeing vaccination rates

rise. by an average of 20% to well over 90%. let's be clear vaccination requirement should not be another issue thatt divides tus. >> david michaels the president using the word stressing the word requirements. he does not say a mandate in that short comment, and those short comments. >> that is rights. obviously that was shorthand for what else is going to osha's not having a vaccine requirement or mandate associate lost they have to provide a safe workplace. potentially infectious workers are hazardous to other workers. the theory is that the employer has to make sure anyone who enters the workplace or workers that come

into the workplace arere not spreading the disease. they have to either make sure the workers are vaccinated or regularly tested to make sure they are not infectious they will not require will keep workplaces safe stop the spread of the virus in workplaces they take the virus home to their communities to their elderly relatives. that is helping tolp drive this pandemic. >> the president calling it an emergency really anticipating at be an emergency rule. typically hung these emergency rules and regulations last?

gives osha authority for six months atr a time. he does not have to go to the normal process which is what we went there and took long. this essentially says when you have a novel or new hazard it's a great hazard as this is. give six months to enforce it that's what that says that's what they're going to give her. >> your head of osha during the obama a administration you advise the incoming biden administration on a number of issues. did you have a role in advising the administration on the development of this rule? >> i did not press on a national panel to develop an equitable framework for the allocation of the vaccine that

was very important to pointnt out the importance of workplaces and essentially who have to show up at work. these are particularly over represented black and brown workers are at greater risk for lots of reasons. i think that's very important i did not have the director role advising on this. >> there has been on the effectiveness of mandates issued by private companies in particular and talk about health companies, medical facilities, hospitals across the country. >> that is right. there isff a rule coming down from a different federal agency essential for sources which is the system that provides funding will say every healthcare institution will have to have all of their

employees vaccinated. several states of putting pools like that. were seeing their leaving the workplace because of this. i don't want to get vaccinated they are told if you want to keep your job and obviously protect other workers make sure you do not spread the virus to patients who could be get vaccinated. that is a model and as president biden said the vaccination rate is rising. it will continue to rise. that is all we need to stop this pandemic too. >> does this requirement that workers need to be vaccinated or show proof of negative test? >> the osha requirement will say to employers he must

ensure your workers are vaccinated. there will be other roles coming out of the federal government that require vaccination for certain groups workers. the osha rule will not her. >> we welcome i called in comments 207-48-8000 in the eastern and central time zones (202)748-8001. good morning. >> good morning. i have a quick statement. return but who is the hardest regulation i brought up silica the reason it was so hard is because the industry's hiring scientist to light. i don't understand that statement will mortal when you trust the science both him and osha that proof scientists are lying to them. does that go both ways?

>> he raised a great question. is have written a couple books ison this very question. there is an industry called the private defense industry they hire mercenaries scientists just as there are some scientists out thereco saying colbert is not spread by people or masks don't work or vaccinations don't work. what happened to regulation this is occupational regulation, environmental regulation is a small industry of people whoti will say that chemical just isn't dangerous it is the tobacco model. they hire physicians hire scientists they wear white coats they say they are scientists there really isn't proof tobacco causes lung cancer. that same model is now used widely by many industries who want to avoid regulation. that is the issue.

follow the science is shorthand for saying what's really look at what science says and take it seriously. >> argus is a professor of epidemiology on the george washington school of public health and professor of occupational safety. what are the issues you are addressing in that class in particular these days? >> these days i teach environmental policy how do we take the science we know and apply it to public health protections in the workplace and environment. there is a very thin line we should separate those two. many cases the exposure is a father of environmental justice department workplace environmental justice. the issues we talk about, or

perhaps even worse in workplaces were minority in black and brown of the worst exposureste. it's true across the board workers are often forgotten. announced a major program to control the chemicals you may but theird about tough line like chemicals. there's no mention of workers and workers are exposed to these in the workplace. how to protect people not just outside the workplace but inside the workplace as well. >> is go to the next color in youngstown ohio good morning. >> good morning. can you hear me? >> yes pecan. >> caller: i do have an issue with tracing the spread of covid because you can't really say where you got it from. if youou go to the doctor all they can say is that you have got it. they cannot tell you where you

got it, how you got it, and then finally everything is supposed to be free. it is not free. i don't believe it's free. >> host: in terms of getting your vaccine or what? >> yes getting the vaccine might be free to us. but the government is paying these pharmacies to develop this. i believe that is how it started really. that is what i believe. you cannot trace it. it is not effective. >> host: will have my guess thanks for the call. >> guest: you can trace who spread the virus from person-to-person. it requires some scientific work and it's not done as much as it might be done. it's called genomic sequencing. as done in hospitals, meatpacking plants that can

show exactly the variant the ghost in person, the person, to person. that is how we know how the spread occurs within workplaces. we learned early in the epidemic the cdc was saying is only about travel veryy far. the studies that show one person affected another is not peter wait our yards away because we could see exactly that's the virus that spread from one to the other but there's a lot of science being done here it's the best way to protect people. >> i want to talk to vow to a potential contract and check conflict between the state of texas with vaccine rules and mandates. the latest, the executive order coming out ofno the governor of texas governor greg abbott said no entity in texas can compel receipt of a code vaccine by an individual including an employee or consumer who objects to suchva

fascination based on religious beliefs or for medical reasons including prior recover from covid-19. toi hereby had spent relative statutes to the extent necessary to enforce this prohibition. says it's another instance of federal overreach praise bullying many private entities into imposing covid-19 and mandates causing workforce disruptions that threatens texas continued recovery from the disaster. this could be a potential legal battle between osha and the state of texas, could it not? >> there's so much wrong at what he says. the wrist is really extensive. federal rules and regulations preempt or trump any state law of the texas legislator passes it is called the supremacy

clause of the constitution. if it went to court, osha would when it's pretty straightforward. what the attorneys told me i would have to wear masks for example are they v have to be vaccinated. they're still anti- emergency situation you can't require vaccination. they want to take effect and they have privacy over that. the other issue which is really important what goes on in terms of covid and how it spread. right now the economy is not able to move back to normalcy. so many workers are afraid to go to work. the census bureau does a huge survey every two weeks. there are about 3 million

workers out of the workplace right now they are out of the workforce they're afraid of getting covid or spreading covid. employers are having tremendous difficulty getting people to come to work. this is an important issue, people have to feel like it is safe to get to work. theyve have to be able to come in every dayay and not get sick. it's worth talking about the theory or philosophy behind i have the right to turn on the vaccination. it is an individual choice. i get that. it the same way as individual choice to get really drunk so you can't drive safely. it's absolutely your choice to buy as much alcohol as you want. but it is not your choice to get in the car and drive. because obviously you can hurt much more than yourself. you can hurt someone else.

that is criminal, people go to jail and should. i have lost friends. everyone knows someone has been hurt by drunk drivers. the thing about covid is, you could say i don't want to be vaccinated . but if you get sick, you may be healthy and have very little effect from that covid virus. with that many could spread it to the other. colinsp powell who died yesterday, somebody spread that virus to him. he didn't get it from nowhere. maybe someone who wasn't vaccination spread the virus to him. because he had a damaged immune system had multiple myeloma he died. you're not being vaccinated impacts people who are frail or elderly have bad immune systems. and furthermore, their hospitalization or perhaps your hospitalization isn, it's fine if i'm hospitalized, people desperately need

medical can't get it because the hospitals are filled with people who are in vaccinated with gotten sick. so this idea you don't need to get vaccinated and by forcing people to be vaccinated, we are slowingng down the economy, the opposite is true. we really need to make sure everybody is vaccinated so we can get back to functioning normally break. >> 's new osha rule coming out on vaccines does not tell employers what they must to do with employees who do not get vaccinated or refused to comply. >> many of us work at home. obviously many blue-collar jobs in construction you can't do that. it says to the employer you will figure it out. they are not willing to be tested underlying it will be

able to control the epidemic the. >> understand that regulation focus is this a federal regulation you may not know this but a viewer, tony in florida asked this question, how many state and local governmenty workers will be impacted by the new osha rule? >> it is a great question. at the time of federalism which is the opposite of what it sounds like it gives states a great deal of power. the federal government has osha oversight over 29 states. federal osha has no authority. however there 21 states it is

a mosaic. about half the country the public sector workers would be covered the states like california, washington, oregon for the state government has the same rules or perhaps a more stringent rules like washingtonub state is already said every public sector worker in washington state will be vaccinated. the so the fire the coach he would not get vaccinated. other states like texas and florida for example under federal jurisdiction mr. osha free zones. as you said, the head football coach at washington state has been fired, fired yesterday nick fired as coach at washington state after refusing vaccine under state mandate. and several other assistant

coaches as well.fr wilmington, north carolina we hear from alexis good morning. >> caller: good morning. i have a question, i am sorry i did not pay attention to your name. for the osha man. >> david michael perry. >> thank you. >> called the ocean man that's funny. [laughter] the buck stops here, right? i would like to know how, i think you were sort of explaining it. there is this big hubbub in chicago, mayor lightfoot says that anybody that is not showing up for duty with covid vaccine credentials can't work. i think the fraternal order of police have weighed in, how does that fit in with all this stuff? there government employees are they not? how does that work?

>> cook county police, chicago police are public-sector workers but they are not federal workers. federal osha has no jurisdiction over them. chicago, mayor lightfoot as their employer it says you must be vaccinated to continue to work. in addition, illinois has a state osha plan that will likely issue a t very similar standard to osha federal saying all state and county agencies have to offer either vaccine or testing choice. butas in this case, as the employer, mayor lightfoot's simply said if you want to work for the city of chicago you have to be vaccinated. many large employers have done that. obviously united airlines did this. the mammoth food producer, meat packer which has tremendous problems with covid and many workers infected many died, negotiated with their

union that everybody would getac vaccinated. but the union was able to get additional time off, days of vacation per workers in exchange for that vaccination program. so unions can certainly negotiate around vaccination to get something from their employer for their members in exchange for agreeing to mask vaccination. there's a lot of different ways to approach this. the employer can always say, i want everyone here to be vaccinated. the experience of many employers, like united airlines, relatively small number of workers simply refused to cooperate them lose their jobs. the headline for united airlines was 600 workers will be forced to leave the workplace. it turned out to be less than that. 600 may sound like a lot but you guys have 67000 workers that's under less than 1% of their workforce it turns out not to be a big deal when some

groups of workers like police that we will cooperate these mandates by employers are successful, most workers agree they are safer as a result. i would not want to be stopped by a m policeman who sticks his headad into my cart not wearing a mask and is not vaccinated. that has become a public health menace. >> one of the headlands of the chicago situation from yahoo chicago mayor said police unionn trying to induce an itinsurrection, vaccine mandate opposition. let's hear from carla in new york city. >> caller: hi doctor michaels how are you? i would like to know where osha was at theor beginning of the pandemic when there was notiv enough for the health care workers who came to work and risk their lives. does nothing but the federal government or state or local governments to do anything about this.

it's okay for people to wear ppe among patients and i'm sure contributed to more covid infections, more healthcare workers getting covid. i just want to say i think it's kind of disgraceful they did this in the beginning and at risk their lives and now people are choosingg not to get vaccinated, they have no choice in the matter. they are getting fired left and c right and they're also been told they cannot collect unemployment if they do this. which i also think is disgraceful there seven people stayed home during this whole thing and collected money when they could have worked. that is just my comments i would like to know what you have to say about this. >> guest: i think you raise a really important point. the beginning of this pandemic osha was nowhere to be seen. that's because it was a trump administration the secretary of labor james scalia who is the son of the former said osha doesn't do anything

special we just do what were doing. they're pretty much invisible. there is inspection at smithfield foods for more than a thousand workers were infected and south dakota. dozens of workers were hospitalized. osha issued a fine of $15000 for a company or the many billions dollars. essentially the trumpes administration handcuffed osha. since then oshaha has become much more active. i'd like to see them even more active osha has emergency temporary and erred to help healthcare workers is a new requirement for healthcare facilities. osha is making some progress early they were not there at the beginning break. >> this proposed rule for the biting demonstration from osha is not been issued yet. are they still taking public commentary onar it? not taking through a docket

which its and their a nonemergency rule. the white house is having meetings right now they are stakeholder meetings or meetings that anyone could ask for. they come and having seen the proposal and know what is in it. will go on for a few more days. different employee groups, public health groups, labor groups will come in and think they should be in the rule. the white house, working with osha will modify itil accordingly things they hadn't thought about so i don't think we'll see it for another week or two. it could happen much faster rate. >> under employees is a magic number that makes it safer sisters made up? >> it's okay to say 100 is the

magic number thousand unfortunate choice i would've liked to have seen it done more universally to cover all employers is released small employers have challenges. i think the white house and osha decided really the white house decided this was something large employed leaders could handle it more easily than unified employers. there is a decision made that way break. >> next up is jeremy from lawrence kansas. hello thank you. it is the case the wise scientist driven database of health policy way out of this pandemic is rapid antigen testing specifically. people can go lookid at harvard epidemiologist, wrote an op-ed in the "new yorks times" october 1 titled rapid test or the answer to living with covid-19. if this administration make it

mandatory for all to be tested for infectivity by rapid antigen test in order to go to work. vaccinated and unvaccinated. bindings to roll role at the defense production act now and make it available for hundreds of millions of americans to test themselves at home, work, school. finally people like to go look at facts and as to says covid-19 mask vaccination campaigns are promoting the dominant selective escape variant. so in many ways this policy of pfizer apartheid putting vaccines together unmasked indoorshe but we had into the winter is the worst thing in

terms of evolutionary pressure towards escape variance. >> host: jeremy will get some response from doctor michaels. >> guest: i agree with him, let me say it rapid antigen's are part of the answer not the answer. i think having access to rapid testing would certainly help people discoverly much more quickly if they are infectious. and encourage them to stay home and your program that requires employers to have paid sick leave accompanying any sort of rapid testing. you certainly don't want people infectious going to work. there has been a shortage of these tests part of the code would plan the president announced, pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into development in the rapid antigen test. i am told by december hopefully before we love huge numbers of these tests. ii think that will make a

difference as well. >> let's hear from mark in omaha, nebraska hi there. >> hello, thank you for taking my call. thank you for coming there doctor michaels. i have cold morbidity i got my moderna vaccine mandate for everyone. i am not for that just like you said the most people at risk are elderly and comorbidities. why can't a mandate come out or if you have comorbidities you should wear and 95 mask. why make everyone when it only affects lessn than 1% of the people who can be damaged by it. why can't the mandate go to people who are more at risk? i am wondering, once you start these mandates all the time, do you eventually see a flu mandate coming also for the

flute egg the government mandating that? thank you. >> it's so funny everybody's worked up about the covid vaccine mandate. wewe have tons and enteritis vaccinated do not want that spreading. most public schools have mumps, measles, you had to get smallpoxun vaccination to do many things until he finally eliminated smallpox. this idea there's all the sudden a crazy mandate on something that's in this very polarnf

it certainly looks like johnson & johnson vaccine is the first shot to really boost the immunity that will likely be the advice. >> the current thinking could be ant: annual or by annual? what was seen as the mr vaccine weighing in their immunity over it for, six months, perhaps a little longer. we may have better vaccines in the future for these are fabulous now, they are not perfect but no vaccination is

perfect. we look back on the success of the polio vaccine. at the beginning there were quite a few breaks we've done much better we don't need to get multiple vaccines. that's also because it's not around much anymore. we might move to a place we to have annual or biannual like we do are much more effective than the flu vaccine and very different every year. as the science develops, we may move to every couple of years. maybe much longer term of protection people see where that goes. the main thing we need to do is spread these stop the spread ofle the virus it's killing so many people even with vaccination rates going up there's a thousand deaths

every day in the united states crashing every day in the united states. let's get will more call here, jim is in brockville, california go ahead. >> hi. i am just concerned about them wanting to push more vaccinations onto people like the flu. i'm more concerned about the information what's in the vaccine. what makes me hesitant is the mercury there given the kids it causes adhd or whatever. you are all about the science on a military brat i have vaccines all my life. but i stay away from the flu vaccine. i believe in my own body. >> did you ever have an

adverse reaction to those in yourur childhood? >> i got out when i was 16 i was a pretty young kid at the time. >> okay will hear from doctor michaels. >> you probably never had diphtheriapi or whooping cough or polio or smallpox. those vaccines work. there is no mercury in any of these vaccines. the study thats. was done that suggested vaccinationsd led to increased risk of autism. that is been totally, totally, totally refuted for the person who did that study was a scoundrel or mentally ill. he made the numbers up and that is been shown but that scared a lot of people and lead to them not being vaccinated for very serious and deadly diseases. and i'm sure it killed quite a few kids.

it's really important -- we need to tell people what's in these vaccines. right now everybody tells us everything we know says these vaccines are safe. the risk of covid is so much worse than the vaccine on your way out that risk versus the benefit of the vaccination, go ahead and get the vaccination. it cannot only save your life with the life of one of your loved ones people at greater risk like colin powell. >> doctor david michaels professor of epidemiology at the george washington university. thank you so much for being with us this morning. >> my pleasure. >> c-span is the unfiltered view of government including a media column. >> world changed in an instant , media, was ready, internet tracking sword and we never slowed down. schools and businesses went virtual and we powered a new reality because it media come

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