>> c-span offers a variety of podcasts that have something for every listener. weak days, washington today gives you the latest from the nation's capital and every week, book note plus has indepth interviews with writers about their latest works. ... next it's a booktv's monthly "in depth" program with the story and activist roxanne dunbar-ortiz. her books include "outlaw woman" and a recently published "not a nation of immigrants."

>> host: roxanne dunbar-ortiz, i want to start our conversation today with a quote from your most recent book "not a nation of immigrants." in the book youup write that the claim that the united states is a nation of immigrants is the benevolent version of u.s. nationalism. what do you mean by that? >> guest: well, in the past before that terminology, a nation of immigrants, arose there was a degradation really of immigrants, very hard processing of acceptance that still exist with chinese. the first immigration law was an exclusion of chinese. it's been mainly about exclusion.hi

but this term, and nation of immigrants, is actually very recent. i was surprised actually to find that it dates to 1958 and it was implemented by john f. kennedy when he was senator. and it seemed to me that his purpose was in planning to run for president that he had a difficult past because he was a child of immigrants, irish, and catholic. and every president up until that time of his presidency had been either anglo or scots irish, and protestant. so i think what he emphasizes in

the little book that he published called a nation of immigrants, he emphasizes all those great qualities about the irish in particular, and it's mainly about that. but the terminology, i don't remember it, frankly, when i was in graduate school in history in the 1960s. i don't remember the term having caught on yet. i think it was multiculturalism more in the 1970s, '80s, and by the 1990s it in all of the textbooks and public schools, and it simply is an accepted term. , i see it as opposed world war ii cold war competition with the soviet union's two create a positive image, what people around the world were seen on

television and black people being bloodied and beaten in the south the desegregation movements. this was a competition of not only in weapons and economics but also cultural in the soviet union and you definitely publicizing these negative qualities. i think a nation of immigrants was in immigration law that john f. kennedy did initiate, he was not alive when it was finally passed in 1965 but it did open up immigration for the first time to non-european immigration

so there was a liberal pinch is a new nationalism but we also have a fast developing white nationalism that opposes the, ph want a white republic is not uncontested. >> when we go back in history and if we went back to the 1700s were there open borders at that time into the united states? >> there were no immigration laws but there was a great deal of suspicion of some immigrants, not engel or scott or germans but alexander hamilton was absolutely paranoid about the

french immigration that was during the french revolution and please revolutionaries would filtrate the united states can create ideas for the acts during that time with the preventative there's great suspicion of anyone who is not english speaking or german or scandinavian soon after but in the very beginning it was pretty limited and of course only males in first property owners could be actual citizens.

>> roxanne dunbar ortiz throughout your historical text you use the phrase settler colonialism, what you mean by that. >> it's one kind of western colonialism that started in the 15th century with the paper bowl the law of europe at the time was from the holy see that was international law so that law 1453 good portugal it was normally estate it was a monarch the right to invade, occupy

africa and enslave all the people, that was the beginning of the slave trade lives was the main slave market in the mediterranean. but then columbus voyage in 1492 commissioned by the monarchs of spain that the year after 1492 in 1493 the same kind of paper bowl gave all of the western hemisphere to the spanish monarchs to enslave all the people and to own all the properties by the notion of discovery to the doctrine of

discovery that's really what it became which is still the law in the united states and most of western europe, it is still the law even now today this medieval paper bowl is inscribed in the u.s. law through the supreme court decisions made in the 1830s. center colonialism is a type of european colonialism it already existed because for two centuries they colonized ireland and they were introduced and settler colonialism devised it to push out the irish woodland

that they own and this is how we get the scots irish which my father's family has descended from. when they came and migrated to the united states they came very seasoned colonialist in the. that established limited exist today as a contested territory is still under the british empire, these things are not just history this was the first developed over a couple centuries brought to north america and because of the first

landings of the puritans before that jamestown and especially with jamestown which is played down with the mercenary john smith and armed violent immediate taking of the land in jamestown and pushing up people very violently they also found a product weren't squashing the triad of american agriculture before columbus. another item to buckle which they use for municipal purposes

and ceremonies they didn't get addicted to it but started selling this and very quickly became a price commodity in western europe and everybody got addicted to it it only grew and grew and grew that was a formation of the british empire what these colonies can be appropriated to the native people who had developed and was already agricultural land and they had manicured before us and built roads all over the continental and the eastern seaboard and appropriating what already existed and pushing the

people out this was in part possible because the early had the knowledge and mechanisms for doing that in ireland but also developed as a program in itself this was replicated later it worked so well in the north american colonies and was applied in canada and the british holdings in canada applied later in new zealand and australia. these are the prototypes and later the spanish in the 1700s saw the success instead of looting and mining the agriculture was very successful in north america.

in the new colonies of conquest in argentina, chile and now his wife, they you settler colonialism are horrible violent ethnic cleansing re-genocide a is in north america. >> utility story and not the nation of teaching a course asking your students what did the united states look like geographically during the colonial period you said most include all of united states. >> i call u.s. imperialism in your absence to draw what was

initially what were the first states when the united states was developed draw a quick map of what to united states look like not expounding. i don't have those about how many states because i might tip them off but most of them do drugs in the continental i got them from them immediately, it is a subconscious memphis destiny that it will always be but of course it wasn't always to be it took more than 100 years of daily unrelenting warfare to march across the

continent later invasion of mexico and annexation of half of mexico. in that time the continent was not sold until 1890 which is a marker of the massacre in 1890 is a moment when all native people were herded onto concentration camps guarded by army bases and later became reservations, this is something that can be mapped i don't think educators are telling students as or throwing them but it's so pervasive in the national consciousness the people in the

united states that they see as having been that way, they immediately know they made a mistake and that can't be and it's a way of teaching to see, i've had that as a child and i'm sure no one ever gave me a test while i'm sure i thought the continental united states always what it was. >> when in your life did you question the history that you knew. >> i was never an early boomer in that respect i can't say that i was a group in rural oklahoma is not exactly a southern baptist so it's not exactly where you might be exposed to anything near the idea that i

have now. i think education is so important higher education that is when you possibly might bump in shoot some knowledge and that's why many people like nationalists and evangelicals the storage higher education there likely to lose the kid to knowledge so my first year at the university without the university of oklahoma did it really, it was a period of desegregation in my last trip i school i went to trade school of public ice will be happy to be

the first school in oklahoma to be integrated. so about 2225 out of 1500 students 20 or 25 black students were brought from the black high school to central high which is not nearly as good as cool as dunbar black school was far better educationally but the period of school migration this is 1956 a couple of years after the supreme court decision desegregating schools. for the first time i was in

community with black people who were being abused every day by white people slamming their lockers, breaking into their lockers for spiked the young black student had been trained not to react they were very dignified and it amazed me there was no way to avoid it well had to work at a trade quote was a job it was a full day but i would observe these things i was appalled but i think something in my upbringing maybe in the

southern baptist for my family and grandfather had been a member of the socialist party in local and my dad was not liberal but very proud of his dad i heard the stories and my grandfather with justice and fighting against the ku klux klan i became pretty quickly and antiracist and i'm very grateful for that experience because i'm not sure i would've had that experience that led me then to other things. the university able, i met, fell in love and then married next year a young man who was architecture student and his family were liberal and trade

unionists. and his father was the main person who integrated the carpenters union in oklahoma. it was a completely different setting that i lived there for five years, four years before we moved to california, i got educated but none of this led to understandings, they had big farmland the obvious had been the southern cheyenne reservation at one time. but i did not question any of that. it took quite a while graduate school i think it was because i study latin american history and graduate school that i came to understand u.s. imperialism in

the u.s. history classes which i also took because i did my dissertation on the border, i had to do both they never talked about imperialism, they called it -- i learned about the invasion of mexico which i had little knowledge of before, i think that led me on the path in the direction of wanting to understand this further and then i got involved and i had young professor of african americans study through japanese-american film i volunteered to be a teaching assistant it was

outside of the university i was asked to be an expert witness in the sovereignty case after 1973 and i had to do a lot of studying because really at the border in the southwest and specialize my dissertation of a history and mexico from precolonial times to the present. i was no expert of 1868, i knew about it because of the american indian movement was very active

and gloria junior who was the lead lawyer said you're probably a quick study and handed me an arm load of documents and books, i learned pretty fast that that experience in lincoln nebraska and a two week hearing, all of these people from pine ridge and the reservation came down and made an encampment on the missouri river and it was an extraordinary learning experience of listening to oral history of that treaty and learning in the native people that i found not just there but "after words" that they have a

strong world history and know the history and united states no one else knows it from the point of view of their experience. in the book and deduce people's history, then the united states and try to replicate that everything i have learned through all history and glorious are not always accurate with dates but they tip you off where you should go to look and fill it out and that is certainly the case that has been my research process since that time in 1974. >> professor dunbar ortiz, before we leave not a nation of immigrants and look at some of your other books i want to finish our discussion with this quote, it is a james baldwin quote that you include in the

conclusion i'm not a nation of immigrants, i love america more than any other country in the world and exactly for this reason i insist on the right to criticize her, is that your sentiment as well? >> no, and that paragraph i am pondering why anyone, any u.s. person who criticizes the united states, just tell the truth about u.s. history has to swear their loyalty to the united states, and makes no sense to me, i do not love the united states, i don't know what that means, i love human beings, individuals but i say i love

certain foods or something but to love and nation states, i don't understand patriotism i think it's a recent thing in world history and it is a poison that creates war in madness and the division that we have right now in this society. who is the greatest patriot. i was really criticizing because i don't think he really meant that. i mean i don't know i can't read his mind but everything else it is hard to think that love is the first thing that would come to mind and his sentiment about the united states from his experience, i have nowhere near any kind of experience like

that, i think at least as historians we have to tell the truth and i think we should be objective that we should not write the parler history and is building up in the united states insane you have to balance it with something good historians need to tell the truth about u.s. history they define when they have no limitation or apologies, when they get to their new country, i don't think that's true of other national historians, british historians can be pretty objective about the british empire, maybe the french are more like the united states, i was actually criticized which i really do but

i just felt bad, why does he have to say that with an apology and say i love the united states, i have the duty, i don't know about the right but i have the duty as a historian to tell the truth. >> you are 2014 book and indigenous peoples history of the united states, won the 2015 american book award, in that book professor dunbar ortiz you look at the standard or commonplace historical eras, the division and they include the colonial era, the revolutionary war, jacksonian . . . civil war and reconstruction, industrial revolution and the gilded age, imperialism, aggressive-ism, world war i, depression, new deal, world war ii, cold war, vietnam, how would you rewrite

that are those very divisions for studying history? >> in the book i debated with myself and i talked with other colleagues about how to reorder the chronology of the united states it would be more accurate it's a lot to ask of people who take away the framework that exist. i pretty much lived within the framework but also criticized it while inside of it. for instance both historians, there is some changes but up

until things started changing a little bit after 9/11 in the bush administration invasion of iraq and afghanistan they started thinking maybe the united states is imperialist but i say it with imperialist from the beginning, the usually day 1898 overseas invasion of the philippines, guam, taking hawaii and the specific islands occupying the philippines for 40 years that that they make it. the end with world war ii the united states was founded in the division of the british empire, nothing really changed in terms of goal and the goal of western

europe from early times of imperialism was to capture the wealth of china there was an obsession with china and the founding fathers the goal to get to the pacific they had maps in the northwest ordinance which was a condo congress developer for the constitution and then they folded it into the constitution the northwest ordinance had maps the headlines and they were gonna be separate sovereign each state the sovereign state, it wasn't yet

federalized is a constitutionalist so that her massachusetts across the continent to the pacific and in each state within its own territory in the spanish were holding all the territory west of the mississippi at that time that would be the first thing to get rid of the spanish into going to the northwest not to the pacific and did not refer to the pacific it referred to conquer the ohio valley this was the main reason for independence

the british proclamation of 1863 that the british settlers from going into ohio valley, they were already going on they were going to burn in others even george washington made a fortune through land coins he was going in with his militia i was wonder why this man in a fancy dress in houston plantation was a survey or had a cousin who was a surveyor he was chopping around the mud in a working-class guy i

could not put together of course he didn't tromp around but he led his militia to map these unseeded lands and he made a fortune off of selling deeds he was only one many founders holding these deeds that were no good unless they could claim the lamb and make the proper deed. this was a major cause in the declaration that we talk about about being a strained and protecting the savage, all of that is about the proclamation. that is about the barrier that was put. not only for bailey when going

in there, the british sent redcoats to go in and bring people back. suppose the demolitions were supposed to be doing that to but they all had investment, most of them in investment in taking that land. that was a major reason for a dependent. i call that being founding is an empire when you're going to get to the pacific and then dominate china that is called imperialism. i don't change the order of chronology an unusual one but within those i change this argument.

>> yearbook conditions peoples history of the united states brings to mind 1980 book and people sense of the united states, is that your comparison? >> i love howard zinn's book when he came on 1980 i adopted it with my introductory history class in my university immediately and it was such a gift for students to have poetic and places and books that told the truth. i loved it and i got to know howard and his other books. it's such a classic marker for a change in the teaching of u.s. history but i do feel, it opens

no other book at that time not with the precolonial people there and mostly not very accurate information if at all in u.s. history what he says is genocide very moving first chapter and for the native students and others in native american history classes, it was unprecedented to have a book that started in that way. he doesn't really deal with what happened during the civil war and the u.s. military didn't

miss a beat in his move across the country and they rounded up all of the people that they can round up and they marched a long walk in a concentration camp. they were left until after the civil war, the army went into protect the scandinavians who are common and were and forcibly trying to force the difficult farmers out into the u.s. army and has the largest mass hanging

in the history that took place. the dakota people in the shoshone massacre that took place in the west, 394 shoshone people massacre and of course the genocidal act against northern china and colorado. these don't appear in the civil war section of civil war writers and it doesn't appear in the book, he does get back to the army in the west and the

genocidal wars and deals with the wounded massacre but then it cuts the whole 20th century there is nothing about native people until the 1960s in the red power movement. i used to ask where the native people were really hibernating, what were they doing and he would say i don't how to write this, you have to do that. that's what i decided to do was fill in howard zinn's book to make it more complete but it's still a very wonderful book that i think is not only to be honored by everyone and their young adult version that is

available to young people. my indigenous people's history in the united states also and young adult version. >> thank you for joining us on tv today, we have one author on to talk about his or her body of work and this month it was destroying author and activist roxanne dunbar ortiz. she started publishing books in 1997, red dirt growing up was her first on number of the waiters came out in 2001 and you just peoples history of the united states came out in 2014 which one the american award in 2015 all the real indians died out about native americans came on 2016 loaded disarming history

of the second number in 2018 and the most recent which we discussed not a nation of immigrants, petals or colonialism, white supremacy in the history of exclusion just came out this year. we want you to participate in this conversation with roxanne dunbar ortiz, here's how you can do it will click the phone numbers on the screen reminder 202 is area code if you live in the easter central 748-8200 is the number for you to die if you live in mountain pacific (202)748-8201, we have a third phone line this is for text messages only (202)748-8203 sending a text please include your first name intercity as well, text messages only on online you can also find us on

e-mail book tv as they spend outward and on social media instagram, facebook, twitter booktv is a handle that is what you need to remember we will begin taking your phone calls very shortly. roxanne dunbar ortiz growing up okay, what's an okie. >> is a very preferred term that was created for the refugees during the depression it came to california and it was a slur word of okie and it was shunned it was a fighting word in oklahoma, none of my family migrated at the time my father we said only the wealthy farmers

could migrate because they had cars or trucks and we didn't, my dad was a farmer and did not own land. but he was hurt by it because there was no more small farmers to be attended for. that term was not at all used until rural haggard beloved in oklahoma and he's a californian from california, when he did okie from muskogee i think that really changed by the time i wrote a memoir i felt very free to use the term okie so that's the origin of it and a slur word

turned around into a sense of pride. >> in the author's notes of indigenous people my mother was part indian most likely cherokee board in joplin missouri, you go on to write other things and then you conclude the paragraph by saying my mother was ashamed of being part indian, she died of alcoholism. >> i think i've rethought that since i published it. i think it's really important that native identity be identified with the tribal with the tribe, it is not a race there is no such thing as indian, more than 300 different

native communities, without ties i never had ties with anything and is pretty certain that probably my mother was not cherokee, there is no tracing him, i think when i made that assessment at the time, i had not really given enough thought, i rethought it and i very much doubt that and i certainly would not call myself cherokee. so my mother did die of alcoholism, she was not an alcoholic during my childhood, i was the youngest. but she had a very hard life she was an orphan and her mother died when she was four and she was kind of shifted around, she

had eight brothers and sisters and shifted around to new families and then within a school that was sort of more like a juvenile place. she was 15 when she met my dad who is a cowboy literally working on a ranch in the northeast and then he came back to the hometown where i was raised where his father and both sides of his family had settled in central oklahoma. they all left and moved to texas except him. so they married when my father was 17 and my mother was 15,

young, kids, she had been through a lot she was a great mother to all of us, i was the youngest i was mathematics but when everyone grew up she did start drinking, her father was irish and had been an alcoholic and beloved, she loved her father, he was probably a jolly drunk, i never knew him but my brothers and sisters adored him, i do think it can be very generational but i think she got it from her irish father, alcoholism. >> professor dunbar ortiz let's hear from some of our viewers

this is carl in washington, d.c., please go ahead with your question or comment i want to thank you for your work, the question that i have with the environment today with critical race theory basically they are trying to deny the true history of america by saying white kids are so hurt by the critical race theory but they have no problem when i was in school teaching little black in the native americans and cutting people's heads off and stopping people and now you to be quiet for white kids so they won't know the truth how they tried to hide the racial massacre, tulsa, the wilmington massacre and the numerous native american

massacre. >> carl, i think we got the idea, professor. >> very good question i never thought i would live to see the day that legislatures including my home state of oklahoma making laws of for bidding the teaching of critical race theory in the first phase of most states. and in the schools but also i think the one in oklahoma reads anything that would criticize white people. but that is really not what critical race theory is is not a critique of white people at all or white individuals, it is a critique of the structures of racism, this is what they fear they know better and they know it structural and all of my historical work is no attack on

individuals, it is structural in society, people, there is something that links people together in a nation-state in the united states was founded as a white republic there is no way to deny that that it was founded as a white republic, all white, they tried to make alexander hamilton park black at one time because didn't pan out, it is a white republic so everything, energy had 200 years of history on the white society that they became a white republic, a

constitution that embedded in it, the protection of property, the property taking land from the native people but even more important especially by retirement the cotton kingdom was simply sleeved bodies, sleeved bodies made up the greatest asset greater than all other assets combined in the united states by 1840 simply the bodies not counting the unpaid labor. those are just facts that is not criticizing, or really and how

structurally they have to deal with and is problematic in the electoral college all of these things will in to exclude and control and written into the constitution and boding how the electoral college by state to the senators for state no matter what the population in california and 40 million people, with the same number of senators in south dakota at

750,000 people, the southern slave states were less populated and they do have tremendous power, this is what critical race theory does to explain it and then you can do with what you wish, to say i don't want to know the truth and ignoring or you can say i have to know more about that, no one is making you believe in something, that is the truth and there are things that are true and are starkly facts. and denying them, that does not mean that the not fax. >> i callers calling in from

santa clarita, california you were on the phone with roxanne dunbar ortiz. >> you know about the mexican-american war in the annexation, when the abraham lincoln against the war when he was in congress but they convinced him to go along because if america had come out west the british would've come down south from canada and they may have ended up helping the confederacy in the civil war and if america had taken the west it wouldn't have gotten the gold and silver to pay for the army so they saved america next to the american war. >> do you want to, professor. >> i really looked at this, i have two chapters at the border on the 20th century in the historical chapter, the united

states to get to the pacific, they started sending spies to spanish territory accidentally getting arrested in colorado which is spanish territory and being taken all the way to mexico city they were trained spies and they could do maps along the way. this is 1806, still spanish territory in mexico became dependent 1821. slavery from missouri started invading and taking land in

texas very rich ground and very united states, that was in 1821 they first took texas was independent no longer the spanish was gone and the united states had a role in it and the mexican had a peasant revolution. they pretty well much got hijacked by the elite. they were very volatile country in the revolution in the 20th century in the structure of the lien and would be repeated i

don't think, i know in mexico it's very poor, the best source about the work the u.s. army official account which is on the internet, the books that i've written have all kinds of different things . . a racial argument that they didn't want all of these brown people as citizens, you know, talking about annexing all of mexico but they didn't want more indians, and is so i think the level of the argument i think a little of the argument has nothing to do with all that strategic stuff what would

happen seeing into the future. they didn't know there was gold in california so that is bennett backtracking and projecting it onto future there are actual arguments thatts i think all of the northerners who were becoming abolitionists, they wanted to abolish slavery. they didn't know what to do and mainly had arguments about that and how they could shift ando then ship them back to africa or get rid of them so it was not exactly you know, abolitionism exceptpt for few people like jon brown, absolutely saw black and white people is totally equal. i think he was unique in that respect i think that we should honor him.

really the avatar starting the civil war but i don't think that any of them were really against it strategically but they wanted that territory. but abolitionists did feel because the developing in texas with slavery, that it would it be or could be that it would reinforce the power of, while the southern states they actually wanted to take over all of central america and the caribbean. as the union was so they were often fighting and not integrated but each of them had

their armies within 90 people there and the apaches the navajos. i think the invasion of mexico created a border that i discussed quite a bit in the new book, that is in stable. it is a border that is artificial and it cuts through modeling through ecology but the native people who straddle the border. they cannot easily communicate with each other. it is an artificial landmark that was taken by violence, by military violence. a treatynn annexation that is wt

was done with a gun at the head and mexico city was under occupation, texas rangers running wild and killing people in writing women in burning houses. it was a violent occupation. and again to the head to sign a treaty and i also have a degree in international human rights law and humanitarian law. that is an illegal treaty so mexico, if it i had any power ad would not suffer from going to the real core anyway in the united states, it would not show up but it could be won by default. it's a reopen the negotiations about that border and do something about it because it is not going to get any better.

it is a contest of water in a violent border and most people in the united states are totally unaware of the history of how it came to be pretty. >> and you are watching live tv and this is our in-depth program, one other, his or her body of work. our guest this month is roxanne dunbar-ortiz and will continue our conversation with her in just a minute. >> politics and prose bookstore in washington dc, recentlytl hosted a virtual event with megan stone and rachel will listing his book about the global impact of the many to movement01 pretty. >> i've been working on the presidential campaign for 2016 as with the, without the dream of electing a person in the united states. [inaudible]. and it was really surprised when the aftermath of that election and had this wave of women's

activism not only here in the united states, but around the world in getting back to the 2017 benchmark which is not only here in dc, he was on every continent and is organized it transnationally and digitally and only ten weeks because of this and i had been activism and as a counselor for policy and program began to gain track and activism when we started seek not only that increase in the number of women raising their voices, starting with the march moving to the movement which was starting in october of 2017, and it also leads to an incredible rise in with women's political expectation in a broad range of countries from afghanistan to places in the middle east, and it we were really struck by this incredible race and i actually

had the opportunity to host not emr rotted, and iraqi women's activist and survivor of sexual abuse were she was advocating against discrimination and sexual abuse against women in and with many activism, they begin trading stories about this rise we are sing around the world. in the stories were not being told the american media so lucky for me, we agreed to join together and we took this journey around the world and that is how we get here rated. >> to watch the rest of this program visit booktv.org and use the search box at the top of the page to look for co-authors and for the titlend of the book, awakening. >> and we are back live with roxanne dunbar-ortiz who is most

recent book was "not 'a nation of immigrants.'" and colonialism, white supremacy and a history of exclusions and back to your phone calls let's hear from barbara in massachusetts. please go ahead. >> hi peter and heidi doctor roxanne dunbar-ortiz and they come to this phone call via hbo's stunning documentary to exterminate all the brutes about thebo history of the concentric colonialism and genocide and doctor ortiz's book is sitting in my lap here, the indigenous people taken out of the library on martha's vineyard it for they still live their children and their descendents go to school with my grandchildren. i really wanted to promote this book because i know that doctor roxanne dunbar-ortiz will tell us more about it and if you go

to amazon.com, now they are selling all three of the books that are the historical backstop for this extraordinary documentary which is four hours and premiered on hbo and you are listening to the founder of the facebook page, friend us - and i hope that everyone after watching this documentary, will, and join the conversation they are which is taking off. please tell us how you got involved in and how he reached out to you and finally i just want to say that this is a documentary of a decade, not the documentary of 2021, and it really is here to revolutionize the historical record. >> thank you, roxanne dunbar-ortiz. >> well it is exactly as she

described, it is a paradigm shift in anything that is ever been on t television. especially broad television and hbo. and it is has long been one of my favorite film makers and i did know him on a never met him a and i never expected in my lifetime that i would meet my favorite film makers braided and one egg and golf and this was three years ago the spring of 2018 and he told me about this and that while i knew that something which is his production company, but i did not know or did not have option the book for a film.

any thoughts is a small film company okay, i had no idea that it was his self so he told me about the idea that he wanted to use my book and he had already chosen to other books, the great haitian historian and his book silencing the past. and exterminating all of the brutes, the name of the book. it was a swedish writer. they compare the genocide of colonialism as the precursor including german colonial genocide in southern africa to theo holocaust.

he already had these two books that he was working with in any discovered my book. just before it came out in the front addition in paris. so is the english version and i was very excited and he said that i also want to work with you because the other two authors passed away and so he asked me to work on the script with him. i did that with him for the next couple of years and that's what i have been doing. it has been a fantastic experience and it had an april launch. i hadio seen it in various phass and i had seen the final but

still actually seeing it and knowing the millions of people were clutching at all of the world was so exciting because of his about colonial genocide and militarism and it focuses on the united states. and africa, the congo and also the caribbean. i agree all kinds of the curriculum is being developed around it we have a book of essays that expand us and upon the themes in the film but taking other situations and looking at them and they should come out sometime next year. so the project goes on and as the caller said, this is not

just a 2021 project, it is going to be a more important take ten and 20 years from now. as a side to how the world works and how colonial genocide is produced situation in the world with that exist today pretty. >> light, lakeside california, l good afternoon. >> good afternoon and this is fascinating the discussion about the desire to go to china even as far back as the northwest ordinance and that generation so that might be able for that but here in california, the headline overnight that a middle-class african-american family had some property either it runs on the beach or manhattan beach,

they're trying to a suburb of los angeles and they were just awarded their land back with her family unjustly lost in a i think it was in the 1920s sometime around then and they just got their property back just yesterday. i had wondered if you heard about that or had any comments storm related to the whole expansion is also thank you. >> bruises meet in california, are you familiar with that story predict. >> i am in san francisco every the la times is quite a story my thought was this is the tip of the iceberg, that happens to one family felt like that in california, there are many cases so help others come forward and make the claims make it known now and i don't know what the generations past, some living

people now may not even know what happened to the forbearers i think we will hear more about this kind of thing of land being taken not only from native people but from black people who just for a home that they lose, 2000 and he was a horrible time to, the black community suffered the most of all with foreclosures having been tossed into deeds and mortgages that they cannot handle. there were great losses and people are still suffering from that. >> roxanne dunbar-ortiz is our guest, please go ahead. >> client is such an honor to

speak with you and i am unfamiliar with your work that but i plan on reading as many as i can. i had a comment earlier today, i don't know if i can say what network but it was msnbc, the programs that he took a road trip to south texas and a lot of the people, his families have lived there for generations. and they were so kind to say the border, we can cross the border, the order process and they explained there's only the human race, the hispanic or indigenous or black, cultural, and ethnicity and i thought you might enjoy hearing with people had to say in my other question is that i'm not read your book

outlaw but i'm trying to find my ancestor, cherokee ancestor, from indian territory here in oklahoma. i'm curious if in your research if you knew anything about bill starr, and the church and i am wondering if my ancestors might ferguson and brown and just curious if you had her run across names and i know that other researchers and historians. also, are also looking for brown, thank you. >> we should point out that outlaw woman is mostly about roxanne dunbar-ortiz and her journey in effect when read open the book.

betty per day said that scruffy feminist like me, giving the movement a bad name and told them betty, that i thought chief phil like she would lose her celebrity position the women were committed to collective action and that she wanted no more than to put a few women in into political office and has a corporations and he called me in an archivist. when in that conversation take place. >> it was in a green room before we went on a tv show together .he was she was a piece of work, actually respect her more now that i'm now more mature myself and what she did and we did than when we were younger women. we were very radical, not just

betty but others for hopelessly liberal. i did repeat that and she did leave to read it and was not happy without. [laughter] but she was a good person about to the texas border, i actually saw the program myself this morning. i get up early here in california and it was important and i hope it gets repeated an interview with mexican people on the side of the border in texas said that the border crossing that they didn't cross the border and should be opened reae and i agree with that.

it's interesting physical rest about that because that is a book that i was working on when i was writing the indigenous people of the united states and since then i read three other books and stillhr not gotten bak to my bill starr book but i grew up in oklahoma and this is my greatest hero and many people especially in the east never heard of belle starr they heard of jesse james usually and she ran jesse james gang was was much younger but what they all were, jesse james, the younger brother and endless movies and they were allll considerate norh in missouri and they were on the side of the confederacy theyow were slave owners and this once

i learned that, was on until he moved to california at age 21, that i actually learned that jesse james and then it was like a house of cards with jesse james was a confederate and they all work because they were all running together. they became abandoned afterwards i have a whole chapter on this in my book disarming history of the second amendment if anybody is interested in reading more about the bandit and the confederate and they were great heroes of movie westerns but small children. but i hope to get back to writing the bill starr book and there is a connection of belle starr daughter,ug got pregnant y a cherokee boy but she sent her

to a place i didn't know where theypl did this she gave birth in the child was taken from her and adopted out because belle starr, will the girl was only 16 years old. but it could've also been prejudiced against the cherokee so that is the only native connection that i know with belle starr. >> donna from maine, we go ahead with your questions or comments. >> this is a wonderful program and i wish i could take your classes. and i just finished killers of the flower men about the osage indians in oklahoma and how they were robbed of their lives, they

were actually murdered. by the way people had the rights to their oil called an underground a reservation i wonder if you having grown up in a coma, you must have heard about that andt i wonder what your personal experiences has been regarding it. >> will thank you for the question, that was a horrible situation and i have not read the book but i think that it's very accurate from the reviews i read of it is very important to understand that the horrible corruption and murders that took place with the oil and gas and

the violence at the base of that development in oklahoma. even his most like oklahoma, where i grew up, canadian county and county seat, this is the land of the planes people and where i grew up had been taken away from the cheyenne nation they are still there but with blend was allotted in the late 19th century so they have only very small tribal headquarters for the comanches, and the southern cheyenne are the people in the area that i grew up in a never even went to tulsa or as a

country and i didn't even know it existed when i was growing up. his by sections of the state, the central and southeast and southwest and northeast people don't get much out of their counties much less to several counties away. so went to tulsa for the first time only since i moved to california. i finally visited it tells that it seemed like a much more beautiful city commit more eastern kind of city. a lot of entrepreneurs from the east is a very different place and where i grew up is more southern baptist hand like the

south even though is the planes. so didn't know anything that no knowledge from the time of only what i read. i have several osage friends. and if all of the writings there of the constitution i followed it very closely because i've osage friend who was involved in writing it. that's very recent, sorry cannot help you with any that. >> indian reservation in south dakota, you are on with roxanne dunbar-ortiz. >> good morning roxanne

dunbar-ortiz, i just wanted to thank you for e-books. yesterday, on the base of the missouri river, overlooking it is 852-foot steel image of a woman, and we celebrated by dedicating it to remind our women that they are also meant in the backbones of our nations. roxanne dunbar-ortiz this 52-foot mag to me is for all indian woman to uplift themselves and learn more about the culture and ceremony and learn more about the language but most importantly roxana, it is the image we will use in south dakota to try to teach white people and remind them

that it was not long ago, four centuries ago their ancestors came to america to look for a better life. we have so much teaching that we have to share with our nonindigenous relatives who live in our land to remind them that they also came from somewhere in that we are the owners of this great land we are sharing in rocks and i'm just excited about this and hope you know about it and you can help promote the appetite so that we can engage in other native women in and indigenous women to be proud of who they are. >> thank you for calling in. >> thank you cecelia, i didn't know about the ceremony and my friends on facebook and they are so excited and i wish i could've

been there to experience it. there is a lot of news now about the murder of native women but such a catastrophic colonial issue that is related to reservations. and still being under colonial control so not allowed to have it incredible mitigation internally so that green light flashing on the borders of the reservations, it's free sexual here, read any woman you want is a huge problem. deb: secretary of interior,

congressperson, took this up as a major issue of native women and it's only now getting publicized because of the murdered young woman from florida people started to say, what about the black women in a native women it and mexican women who are disappearing so thank you for your lifelong work cecelia and the other women air and an echo to our pretty amazing. >> identifying is a was going freak any price you, you seem on the verge maybe in the middle of political native renaissance

tribes helping states and vaccinations and other social safety needs and deb holland and interior, financing, is an understanding and are not what you think. >> yes it is very exciting, i see the groundwork is been separated for decade is filling up and he came off as hard work of native people, native activists environmental activists and students and as they have taken professional and have a in the university said they speak out and people are learning. and there are events like the standing roxana and up rising

and had been going on for six months before it was f publicizd and did get a lot of attention around the world. i think also the campaign to do away with the washington teams floor and other ballgames and at every level around the country, this is being debated. in california the renaming of alsmall valley, lake tahoe and several towns in california that is now being debated is called the country come there of hundredsry of towns that use the wordrd squaw.

there is a powerful thing about the native movement is that every grassroots level in the country, there's something that can be done you don't have to go to a national arts or whatever, you can really start a discussion. so our basketball team is called the indians is a really appropriate because there's no native people on this vessel team or in the audience. and so i think that is the power of it is persistent work of the part of native people and also people waking up to the black lives matter movement and a shift with the red nation preeminent native organizations. like when you saw last summer the confederates coming down and others you also saw columbus

coming down. so think this was beginning to have a new rainbow coalition that's really important and that includes white people. and it by the way included white appalachian migrants to chicago. two has real people working at this at the grassroots level because of the national level, politics i think it will take cultural and social change to change the politics. >> the book all the really the inside out, roxanne dunbar-ortiz, she looks at the myths which he calls myths about the indigenous population, such as u.s. does not have a policy of genocide against native americans, sports mascots honor native americans, most indians

are on government welfare opinions are rich because they have the casinosre and indians were salvaged. and there any comments about some of those myths. >> my co-author, really the two of us together really well incident beacon press series of 21 myths and they have books about the unions. if they're bankrupting us in their other myths and figure jobs and so this one was the myth about native americans. it is very hard to limited 210. maybe whittle it down from 100 and we got there, we said we better stop early show started

whittling down but we could get on because there were probably no more with his eyes to people in the united states and native people. and the problem is that people don't just say that i'm ignorant and i needed to learn something, they say, what they think they already knowhi things because there are so many myths and they believe the myths are true pretty so the belief that the north american continent was populous very sparsely populated by kind of bands of people and instead, the eastern part of what is now the united states, one of the seven original site

of agrarian civilization if, the indies, the nile, and other and in china, all of the same time so agriculture came from and so the idea that there are so many myths and the idea coming to a wilderness, there was no wilderness, the native people everywhere in every square inch and the manicured for us and they adapted the land to them ab well and ecological ways and we have to learn again if we are going to survive. so the myth of the savage, the positive myth of ecological in

the perfect you know, spiritual person and the other side and set savage but neither are what a human being is. so there's also the idea that all indians are alike and then there are's language with indian and there's many languages as there are native people. so the myth we finally came up with i think were important ones many people reading the book will sort of whether they find yes, that's what i thought and that's not true. i do hear of the renaming was

clause, and there was a paper in california, saying that it was complementaryle terms that they like to being called a squaw so this is you know kind of a ventriloquist saying what native people like and what they don't like it may be somewhere that wyou can find one person that will say, yes, i had no problem e with that. but it seems like only with native people that these kinds of myths are very hard to overcome with truth because there's so many that are jumbled together and again it makes a person feel that i always had to tell students when i was teaching in native american history that they should not feel guilty about anything,

there is no reason why they would've learned anything that i would be teaching them before because it was not in the textbooks and it was not in the curriculum and how were we supposed to learn. now they can learn but it's very difficult think two oh get over to large numbers of people but i think these movements, i think the wonderful thing about mass movements which i learned being part of one, in the 60s is that you learn very fast without necessarily books but with manifestoes, with speeches and listening to people all. it's an extraordinary moment and certainly the last year. they don't always last for learning moments but they're very important for advancing and

think that what worry are seeing is a backlash of these critical race theory and is trying to reverse what people learned last year. but i think the cat is out of the bag with so many of these things of people want to learn more. >> there's about 15 minutes left with our guests, kim is in louisiana and you are on the air. >> yes, roxanne dunbar-ortiz, my question is on a subject that i had not heard yet discussed this morning during the second world war, there was i don't know if you want to call it some sort of restriction. the japanese population on the

west coast and i'm sure it was driven by the fear of invasion from japan and so forth. i was wondering if you had run across this in your studies and if you've done any writing on it. >> there is a new book "not 'a nation of immigrants.'" and chapter on it and includes fundamentally to the japanese. but since we in the united states usually cannot tell when nation from another, it spreads to the discrimination also against japanese and southeast asians, everyone. it goes way way back at the

japanese farmers started to come in the late 19th century, the can to work also in the fields and the agriculture business building up they also went to hawaii. there were very poor country so there were people needing to send money back like for people to now they go to rich countries in order to help the families back home inh their communities. i do live in san francisco and of course i have long known about the detail about this because i taught and essex studies my colleague, chinese-american taught that and she was instrumental in with others in developing where

asians really incarcerated while or before they could be let in our they were deported from their but the japanese-americans, most of them for japanese-americans who work in turn they were citizens of the united states and they mostly work by then in the early 1940s, recalled trump farmers, they had small vegetable farms and most i think 90 percent came from japanese farms so almost all of the vegetables and fruits were raised in california that time, and got to the city, recalled truck farmers and they truck them into the cities they sold them to stores and also had open markets.

so they were uprooted. it was pure racism and there's no getting around and i documented inre the book and statements that were made about them that they cannot be trusted agents cannot be trusted. there really, they lie, and supporting the fascist government. and probably lying so just to be safe we need to lock them all up so the rent of them all up they also took land in the property never have returned it. just a token thing and only for the people who directly experienced in most of them are have already passed away by the time that it was done and there's cannot have it stop in

properly dealt with yet. the camps, they were deported, one was in california they were mostly in desert regions, idaho and new mexico, some were taken to force in oklahoma. it was a horrible experience, there was barbed wire around them and armed soldiers just like a prison with the towers and they were watched. it was a horrible time and i have written about it and i think it's very important. and it reminded people of the

native people of their own incarcerations and that was really the place folks, the government was using as likely 50 years before they were incarcerating native people and also introducing while they are ready citizens, they spoke english. and they spoke chinese but they try to assimilate them in a way to change what they were teaching and teach them patriotism some kind of a reeducation camp that they made of these camps as well. it was traumatic pretty. >> before we run out of time we always ask our authors to share some of their favorite books and what they're reading now and here is roxanne dunbar-ortiz which is called from a larger list that she gave us, nothing

ever dies phenomena memory of laura jenny, transitive empire of colonialism. and silencing the path and power in the production of history and barbara ramsey, and baker in the black freedom movement, nick, our history - and david reynolds john brown, abolitionist, mike davis, prisoners of the american dream and monday and eight, neither native now he appears in some of your writings as well. what is his role in your life and in your work. >> will have always been a great admirer of fame, he is a professor at columbia university from uganda, asian uganda and

has published many books pretty he did an excellent book on sedan and everyone should read it. and not understanding what wasad happening there in the southland but he started it working on colonialism a decade or so ago speeches and articles and published this bookec last year. it is just brilliant. so he had asked me to help with the book and i was on a panel of discussing the book, columbia. and i would become friends and had not met in person and he are in his book he had also neither native or settler uses my indigenous people history of the united states as one of the

references. so was the united states which is very unusual to deal with and colonialism for non-us people. it was a real breakthrough that says because he's african, international and it brings the call nihilism to much larger audience and before but he also deals with the project, south africa. andin palestine instead of colonialism so it's really important. we also want to show you some other books that roxanne dunbar-ortiz is ready, 80, intimacies. [inaudible]. and mortality in samuel going. [inaudible]. to see if we can get another

caller before time runs out and william is in west palm beach florida, hi william and thank you for holding. >> could you describe a book and if you have time, don the slavery before the state and was not a factor in independence from britain. >> and you repeat the last part. >> yes, britain freed the slaves before the states. did we see the writing on the wall and that the influence our succession for ricin. >> thank you for that question i'm sorry don't know any of the sources for northern louisiana

but i will definitely look them up.pe >> and in general sense, roxanne dunbar-ortiz, if they want to read from a specific area iss there somewhere they could go, is there a library or site that you go to that is when you go to sites. >> i think that google is fine, i think if you just google it, would find references and articles but i do want to respond with the possibility of written ending not just the slave trades but slavery and they had a huge antislavery movement in britain and wanted to do just that and it definitely made the slavers, in the colonies very nervous.

i do believe that i did what i thought was theha main reason ws the confirmation of that and of the expansion but is mainly the south wantedd to expand and they had worn out the land with commercialized agriculture raising non- good crops, cotton and indigo and tobacco. an essay wealthy and to build wealth, even the british empire, they wanted to move that ridgeland of the southeast the so-called civilized tribes were -cgreat agriculturalists and tae that landed so think that is the main reason but i think that the other reason and i would recommend reading gerald horne's work, on this and definitely the

fear of ending slavery was predominant that the british public, i think they were not so afraid as a monarchy we do it but that revolution of the people in britain it against slavery could win out and do not destroy the colonies because remember in the north some already had known about slavery had in new york, but they were involved in the slave trade most of the slave trade was based in the shipping like rhode island and you know the ports on the atlantic coast in northeast everybody was compromise by

slavery and had an interest in continuing yet so i do think that it is pretty and acyl think that keeping power the southern states, the extra vote counted for the ownership of the slaves. there were two thirds rather than one and two thirds of the voting capacity. in the college that was formed, these were things that were protecting the southern states. due to this day, - >> professor we have to leave it there and we are out of time and very quickly, roxanne dunbar-ortiz her books, to memorize a red dirt and going up in oklahoma, and outlaw women, are woman and memoir of the war years and the indigenous people of the united states and which one the american book award in

2015, on the real indians died off and 20 other myths about native americans. loaded, disarming history of the second amendment that are most reasonable, "not 'a nation of immigrants.'" and settler colonialism, white supremacy and history of the exclusion and thank you for being our guests on book tv. >> thank you peter. >> weekend is on "c-span2" are an intellectual feast, every saturday american history tv documents america's story and on sundays, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for "c-span2", comes from these television companies and mark including cox. cox is committed to providing eligible families to affordable internet through the connection program and the digital divide it one connection at a time, cox, and trent.

along with these television coming support "c-span2" is a public service. >> with the u.s. senate not in session 20 is all this week for book tv, tonight look at some of our recent in-depth programs, we can with author on the politics faith and conservatism in america and is books included privilege, that religion in the decadent society, america before and after the pandemic pretty two hours later a guest is roxanne dunbar-ortiz, she discusses native american culture and history, the women's liberation movement, the founding of the united states, and more and her books include outlaw women, indigenous peoples history of the united states, and "not 'a nation of immigrants.'" and after that, conversation with carol swain who served as vice chair present from 17001776 commission and she talked a critical race theory in the 1619 project, immigration and more, her books included we

the people, the 1776 commission reported the recently published black lives were american's are tonight at eight eastern on "c-span2" new, also access our program and booktv.org, or follow along on c-span now in a new video app. >> book tv, every city on "c-span2" features leading others discussing their latest nonfiction books at 2:00 p.m. eastern, coverage of the brooklyn book festival with the conversation, author of what racism cost everyone in how we can prosper together george author of - ways to overcome inequalities and divisions within the country. [inaudible]. and a collection of interviews she conducted with over 170 people that you met in the new york city subway and conversation between two on the writing minute later discussion on the late neil person who

sponsored last living survivor of the atlantic slave trade was published in 2018 by - the oldest imprint by a major public account devoted to the african-american. and then at 10:00 p.m. eastern on afterwards, doctor paul the children's hospital of philadelphia infectious defeat into disease division talks about his book, you bet your life from blood transfusions to mass vaccinations. ... >> next, it's a booktv's monthly "in depth" program with former vanderbilt