sponsored last living survivor of the atlantic slave trade was published in 2018 by - the oldest imprint by a major public account devoted to the african-american. and then at 10:00 p.m. eastern on afterwards, doctor paul the children's hospital of philadelphia infectious defeat into disease division talks about his book, you bet your life from blood transfusions to mass vaccinations. ... >> next, it's a booktv's monthly "in depth" program with former vanderbilt university

professor and vice chair of president trump's 1776 1776 commission, carol swain. her books include "be the people", "the 1776 report" and the recently published "black eye for america." >> host: author carol swain, what was the 1776 commission and why did you become the vice chair of it? >> guest: why did i become the vice chair? because i accepted it and i was asked in december of 2020, and by by then of course the election was over and i was told by a number of people not to take that position. i took it because i believed in the purpose of the commission. i think it's very important for young people to know about america's history. it's true history. and so i made the decision to serve. and i'm proud of the work that

we did in a short period of time. but for someone looking at the objective circumstances, it didn't make a lot of sense to them to takene it because we knw that most likely our commission would be abolished. o >> host: so -- >> guest: i did it for the good of the nation. >> host: what was the purpose of the commission? >> guest: for one thing, the 250th anniversary of the declaration of independence will be in 2025, and so we were to come up with a plan or a method to study the constitution and to encourage, you know, schools to sort of we embrace america's history, and it was to be a bipartisan commission. conservatives, but it was put together after the 2020 election and so the people that chose to serve are the people that really

cared about the purpose and the mission and that's why i served and it was the only appointment i received in the trump administration and it was something that i believe in. i don't do things i don't believe in and i also can tell you that i've had 3 political appointments. i've had two from president bush and actually one from president obama because he reappointed me to the tennessee advisory commission, to the u.s. civil rights committee -- commission. and so i've had 3 political appointments and i've met 4 presidents in my life. >> well, in the 1776 report that came out following the commission, it's written in the book, you write that the deliberately destructive scholarship shatters the civic bond that unites all americans?

>> okay. >> and what was that deliberately destructive scholarship that you're referring to there? >> well, the -- the 17 -- before i was part of the 1776 commission i was part of 1776 unites that was started by bob woodson and the impetus probably behind the 1776 commission as well as 1776 unite was the 1619 curriculum put out by "the new york times" that was adopted by 4500 schools and we were very concerned about the historical inaccuracies in that report and how it painted america as a nation that was, you know, racist from its inception and

originally put the birth of the nation at 1619 rather than 1776. and so we were very concerned about our children making sure that young people understood america's history and the importance of the declaration of independence and we know the founders were imperfect, the people founded the nation because all human beings were imperfect but when you look at the document, when you read the document, i mean, it serves the hearts and emotions of many people and declaration, excuse me, i'm sorry. our constitution, when you read those documents, they are part of the founding documents of our nation and so we were very much united on the importance of people understanding the declaration of independence and for me it's the declaration of

independence and it's the constitution that i think is important and there are other things that relate to our nation's history including it's judeo christian roots that people need to know and understand. >> well, you referenced the 1619 project nicole hannah jones is the founder of that, here is a little bit from her describing it. >> we argue with this project that august of 1619 is our true founding year and that black americans as much as these men said in monument around capital city, i see the nation's true founding father. that that is our legacy and inheritance and in doing so in this 400th year that 1619 project will force us to tell the truth about who we are as a nation and who we can be and in doing so that we will stop hiding from our sins but confront them and work to make

them right. >> carol swain, what's your reaction to what nicole hannah jones had to say? >> she says it all. 1619 was the date, the year when the first africans came to america as inventured servants and probably for the first 25 years, i don't have the exact dates. i roughly know the dates but the blacks served along with whites servants, they were freed and many of them became professionals. they became the backbone of free blacks in america. if you have been to martha's vineyard, you will run across some blacks, i don't know if you're black or white, but if you're black you can be one of them who will proudly tell you they are descendants of free blacks and people descendants of

servants and up to 1661 if a slave converted to christianity, they were set free and so 1619 for a period there was servitude where people were released, some of those former -- former indigent servants, they got slaves themselves and then there was a period when slavery out of greed was made permanent, but if a person converted to christianity they were set free. that's part of our nation's history, the other part that hannah nicole jones and the 1619 project ignores is the fact that there were always white people who were abolitionist, they fought against slavery, there were whites that set up schools across the south to educate blacks and all the historically

black colleges were set up and funded by whites and so america's true history is a story of people working together and we made mistakes in the country but one thing about america is because of our declaration of independence and because of our constitution and judeo-christian roots, we work very hard to correct those mistakes and i think that's a part of the american story and that's why america became the envy of the world. >> in your latest book which is a best-sellinger now, blackeye for america, how critical race theory is burning down the house, you write that critical race theory is functionally speaking a new religion, what do you mean by that? >> well, critical race theory is first of all, it is a theory that is permeating every institution in america and the

people that are pushing that theory, they argue as you know that pretty much that america, at least, and i'm not going to talk about the world, there are other critical theory marsist roots that all whites are oppressors and they have, you know, racism in their dna, that they are born with a property inherit earns based in the skin color and that they have to consciously become antiracist by renouncing racism and there are lots of things about it but it has, people are supposed to confess our sins just like the religion and they are supposed to constantly repeat their sins

but there's no redemption like the christian religion, there's redemption, you confess one time and not constant confessing of sin and argues that racism is permanent and minorities are permanent victims and it -- it's something that the people that are pushing it forward strongly believe in it but what i argue in the book is not just it's a religion but i argue it's racist and un-american and runs counter to civil rights law and constitution and that and it is the civil right issue of the day and anyone who understands the law it's wrong to demean, shame people and bully because of the color of their skin. doesn't matter if they are white, black or asian, it's wrong to demean and bully people because of the color of their skin and not all white people have the same -- not all white

people are similarly situated and not all black people are disadvantaged and it cripples our children as being taught and pushed in schools across america. unfortunately we will find it in secular schools as well as religious schools and it has become like a religion and something that people need to understand fully and that's one of the reasons that i wrote that book, a coauthored book but i wanted americans to understand what critical theory is, where it came from, how it impacts our society and how we can fight back against it. i think that's very important and that americans are seeking solutions and that they are uniting across racial, ethnic and political lines, they're

uniting against critical race theory because they know that it's morally wrong. >> professor swain, is there a conflict in your view between critical race theory and the judeo-christian heritage of the united states? >> yes, very much so. very much because i think all racism is sin as the bible talks about it and i'm speaking as someone that is a devout christian and i think that it is a sin problem. i also think that if we follow the golden rule to do onto others as we would have them do onto us that that would go a long way in solving our racial and ethnic problems and i think we have a sin problem in america that's racism. i also believe that blacks, whites as well as asians, any racial or ethnic group can be racist. it's not something that only

white people can be. i understand that that's what the marxists argue and that's what the critical race theories argue but they are wrong, any race can be racist. >> be the people, a call to reclaim america's faith and promise. in that book you write that people find it surprising that i take offense when i hear national leaders end their speeches to god bless america, why do you take offense to that? >> well, before we go any further with this chat, i feel like i'm setting on the hot seat. i thought we were going to have a pleasant 2-hour chat but i take offense because nothing about america that i feel that god could bless because we have strayed so far from our judeo-christian roots when it comes to how we treat one another and when it comes to biblical principles and i think if you actually look at the

founding of america and the charters of the 13 colonies, all of them were very much focused on christian roots and up until probably the 1940's it was very clear that this was the country that had values and principles or even the bible was used in some schools to teach children how to read as well as just principles and values about how the treat one another and so we are strayed far from that and you have a nation where abortion and especially in the black community where black women, 12 -- 13% of the population, they are getting more than 37% of the abortions, you have cities like new york and probably washington, d.c. and others too where more black babies are being aborted than are being born alive and when you see the

scientific experiments where they create new creatures by using human sperm and mixing that with animals dna to create new living creatures, these are things that would be very much abominations to the god of the judeo-christian bible. so i don't see a lot that god would bless about america as it is today because it's a nation that's turned its back on him and as i read the bible and you ask me what are some of the books that have impacted me, that was supposed to be part of our conversation and i said the king james bible, i do read the bible on a regular basis and when i think about god's judgment of nations i believe that the united states is god 'sjudgment and we can name a lot of nations that hate america

including many of us hate our own country but it would not surprise me if america did not follow into the hands of another nation and so i don't believe america would stand as america because it's being destroyed from within and without being fired. >> we always ask our in-depth guests what they're reading and some of their favorite books and carol swain listed the king james bible, booker t washington's up from slavery, victor frankil's man search for meaning and palo and currently she's reading balkman's social justice movement and evangelicalism looming catastrophe. professor swain, what's the book about? >> he's a southern baptist and i

happened to be a southern baptist as well and he is writing about how critical race theory has impacted the baptist church and the baptists have been one of the most largest and conservative protestants groups in america in 2019 they passed a resolution at the southern baptist condition to use critical race theory and intersectionality as analytical tools in understanding race in america. and so a lot about his book and i've not finished reading it but it's talking about critical race theory, what it is, it's marxist roots but also about how it impacted and turned it apart and ill not be surprised at some point in the future if the baptist didn't split the way the other denominations have. >> now why are you in nashville?

>> why am i in nashville? >> yes, ma'am. >> that's a good question because i was a ten-year professor at princeton, you know, and and i ended up in nashville and so a lot of reasons, one thing vanderbilt university offered me a full professorship and at the time i was an associate professor at princeton and they offered me more money and i would say that that's part of the reason but i can also say that it was very rare for princeton professors to leave princeton, ivy league school to go to vanderbilt. it was 1998 when they approached me and at the time vanderbilt was not the world-class university it is today and when i told people i was going to vanderbilt, they said you are going where? vanderbilt, where is that? and i made the transition. i accepted the contract.

i physically moved to nashville and i have put vanderbilt on the map, and now people ask vanderbilt, where is that? >> i will not miss when you retire from vanderbilt and what american universities have allowed themselves to become. >> yes, i did. >> what does that mean? >> well, it had to do -- i took early retirement. as a university professor with a full professor, i could have taught until 80's or 90's as long as i could make it across campus to my classroom i would be allowed to teach but i left because what i saw happening at the universities i thought it was very destructive with the political correctness, the demand for safe spaces and the trigger warning and insanity that i felt was taking place.

i felt it was like the inmates were running the prisons because the adults, the administrators, whatever the students demanded they caved so quickly and when i started teaching and when i was a student myself and as you know part of my background is being a high school dropout and going to a community college and earning college and university degree. so i have been a student as an adult as well as a professor. the universities were no longer marketplaces of ideas and so what i found was too much indoctrination and the critical race theory started at the universities but i watched it permeate every sector of the university including, you know, education and the sciences and so i did not like what universities were becoming and

in many ways they have become a destructive force in our society and they are responsible for a lot of the turmoil and unrest that we have and i think it's a shame, the antiamericanism, they are allowed to take place and for the most part they are not many conservatives on campus now and i was not a conservative, i was not a republican, i was just a good democrat but i had common sense and so my research got lots of attention because i've always asked, you know, difficult questions. i've always seen things that other people didn't see and my work has been considered pressing and i have some kind of gifting that i'm able to see things that other people don't see because i make connections and when you say what brought me to vanderbilt, i can answer that as a christian.

at that time i was going through transition and i had -- this was after my tenure at princeton and i was on this spiritual journey and now i would say well, god ordered my footsteps and god brought me to nashville and to vanderbilt. it certainly wasn't something that made a lot of logical sense. i didn't have family in nashville but i made the decision. i don't regret it. i love nashville. i even ran for mayor. >> carol swain, when and why did you become a conservative and/or a republican in your lifetime? >> okay. i've always -- i would say i've been a deep thinker and i always wondered the why, the why the what and the meaning of life and been on a journey and i would say that i was always in many

ways a spiritual seeker and after my tenure at princeton and i found myself in a situation where i was earning more money than i ever imagined in my life and coming from poverty, you know, i was -- i was earning a lot of money and obtained the early tenure at princeton which was my goal, normally 7 years to get tenure. i set a gel for 3 and i ended up going up for tenth year and awarded in the fourth year and i was very disillusioned and so i started this journey that took me through new age, religions, eastern religions, whatever was religious i studied it and it culminated with my having a full-blown christian conversion

experience in the baptist tradition they would call it a born again experience and what's really interesting is that this happened between the time -- it happened as i was negotiating, it was taking place during the time i was negotiating between vanderbilt and princeton and it was not obvious to a lot of people that i was going through this transition but vanderbilt hired me in 1998. i had the christian conversion experience in 1999 and i sured up in nashville in 2000 as a new christian, born again and it's not something that i expected or i planned. it happened and as i grew in my faith, i became more and more conservative. so i think it was a combination of things that caused me to become conservative. the christian faith and being

around people that i think shared my values but also think the world changed in crazy ways and when you do have a true religious conversion experience you've think about eternity and which what's is really important and so all of those things happened and they impacted me and helped make me who i am today. but i did not become a republican right away. i became a devout believer in 1999-2000 while at yale after i had finished, you know, i had earned 4 degrees and i had earned my tenure at princeton, i went back to school and earned a fifth degree at yale and while i was in new heaven, that was when i became a devout believer and i even contemplated at that time leaving academia which i did not

but 2000-2001i became an independent. i stopped calling myself a democrat and in 2009 was when i officially became a republican. but 2008 president bush appointed me to the national endowment to the humanities and to the tennessee advisory committee, to the u.s. civil rights commission as an independent and being on the commission as an independent it -- i had lots of exposure to different types of people but i had exposure to more and more republicans and it was a combination of the party platforms, what the republicans stood for, what the democrats stood for that encouraged me to make that transition. >> what's it been like to be a black conservative woman in academia? >> well, you know something, i went from being a hot shot to --

to becoming a perriah and so there were times that were very difficult because people do treat you as if you are -- you lost your mind or you're the weakest link, you're not smart, you're stupid and all of those things, when you're a christian and i think being black and being a christian and a conservative that all of those things made it difficult in the beginning, but i've reached the age and the part where i really don't care. i'm me, this is what you get and so i accept myself and i found a lot of other people do and it's not just white people. i have lots of support in the black community. i may not have support among black elites but i have a lot of support among real people.

>> now, carol swain, you referenced this a couple of times growing up in rural poverty. what was bedford, virginia like in the late 50's and 60's and what was your early life like? >> well, i grew up in the country and the house that i remember as the first place i livered was basically a two-room shack and my mother and stepfather, they slept in -- in one of the rooms which would have been the living room and the children slept on the kitchen floor and then later my stepfather built two rooms on the back of the house. he was not a good carpenter. recently maybe 10 years ago i revisited the house, his part of the house, his new edition had collapsed into rebel but the original two rooms were standing and the house had no indoor plumbing and i noticed, you know

know, when i revisited the house as an adult, it didn't have drywall and had cardboard and wall paper and fake brick siding, a tin roof, those leaky at times and that was the first house that i remember. .. .. didn't have sliced bread for lunches so all of a sudden my siblings and i would not eat our lunch is in school, we would eat before or after because we didn't want to be teased for

what we were eating and i can remember my mother would not sign us up for free lunches that free lunches were available, free books were available, she would not sign us up because she said if we didn't take charity and so i would do my homework and school. i think my older sister probably did the same thing because we belted did very well in school and there were times when we may have missed. in fact, there was one year we missed 80 of 180 school days. we all fail that year, but i can remember missing a lot of school, coming in and still making and a or b on a test and when i think about my mother, she's very intelligent and she could have easily gone to college if the circumstances had allowed that, but she had polio. that was one reason she didn't finish high school, but she was very intelligent and so is my grandmother and parts of my family, so i grew up in that

kind of a poverty. i grew up in circumstances where sometime during the winter when it snowed, we would stay at home because we didn't have snow shoes and i think the year we missed 80 days of 180, was the winter when there was a deep snow and we stayed home until it melted and it melted in the spring? host: you mentioned in a free show-- and the preshow that your mother is 91 sb 291 sp1 and living with you in nashville? guest: yes, she has lived with me at least 10 years, maybe longer and seven of my siblings are alive, but pretty much i was the one that got out of the poverty and i can tell you as a child i was different. my mother said i was different, that i was very serious and i always had a sense of urgency and felt like there was something i was supposed to do and i ended up getting married

at 16, having my first child at 17 and going through a period of deep depression, suicide gestures and i had people come into my life who changed my life with their word. when i think about where i was and where i am today, you know, it's a miracle and i do believe in god and i had no idea that i would ever go to college. i was painfully shy. in fact, i was shy most of my life even into my 40s. during that time at princeton i had an opportunity to be on "good morning america", one of those shows and i turned it down because i was afraid. it was my first book and i had an opportunity, turned it down, too afraid, but when i wrote the new white nationalism in america challenging integration i felt the book was so important that i had to talk about it and share the ideas and so that's

when i started forcing myself to do media. i got media training and then the rest is history , but i had a painful shyness. some of that shyness, though, left me after i had that christian conversion experience because after that i really focused on the fact that it didn't matter at if people laughed at me or thought i was stupid or crazy, the only person i had to please was god and i feel that way today and so i realize even with an audience there are probably people that will be very hostile and i love the people. i love america, but i don't care what you think of me. i do what i believe is right and i just believe -- i do the best i can to be a good person and to do what i think would help others. host: back to your book, "be the people" and this is a story you shared with tony ravel morrison, quote as a child i often escape

into my own fantasy world. in my world i was not black, i was not poor and i was not female. what was tony ravel morrison's reaction to that story? guest: you know, she said that it was amazing or something like that that isn't-- even even as a child-- i forgot-- you have the book in front of you, whatever i said in the book is what she is said. host: it she said you knew enough to want to be the best thing that you can be in america guest: yeah, that's why she said [laughter] host: did she mean white male and rich? guest: i guess she thought the sense of being privileged, but my childhood fantasies, it was like okay as a child i read mad magazine, i read it richie rich and some in my fantasy world i was kind of like richie rich except-- i would put my

character in all sorts of situations and i was thinking of my narrative and so that's sort of how i guess i got through that poverty and a lot of those situations, but once i got into my late teens and got married i thought this is weird. i should not be doing this so i forced myself to stop. i can tell you that young mabel could do anything and when i think about you know that me now, the older me, the older me can see all of the reasons why something might not work and so the older me is more cautious, but the younger me believed i could do anything and i didn't see myself as handicapped because i was black or a woman. i come from poverty. i don't coming you know all these things, i don't have any money and i can also tell you that i thought as a younger adult that you had to be rich to go to college. i did not know that

people who were smart and black that they were all these opportunities and scholarships and maybe i would have learned that if i had not dropped out of school after completing the eighth grade, but i didn't know these things until i learned about it later and i have also shared with people that as mentors, all of that almost all of them that came in my life and encourage me did not look like me. they were white and some of them were white men pick some of them were white women but they encourage me and i found at the black schools that there was less interested me because i was not the teacher's daughter. i was not the doctor's daughter. i was not the dentist's daughter, i came from poverty and within black schools in black communities sometimes our own look down upon us and then willing to offer a helping hand. of course as you can see i'm dark skinned and i

think that the lighter your skin is in america the better you do and that prejudice extends in the black community where being light skinned gives a person enormous advantages. that's just the way it is and i believe it is that way worldwide based on research i have read over the years. host: carol swain has a masters in political science from virginia polytechnic institute, phd in political science from unc chapel hill, masters of the studies in law from the yale law school, prior to all of that you got a ba degree in criminal justice from roanoke college. why criminal justice and when did you veer off of that? guest: you also missed probably my most important gray, which is an associate degree in business, digit-- business merchandise from virginia western community

college and i can tell you that initially i was interested in art. i have art talent. in fact, i recently signed up for a drawing class and have done some painting. i was told to be practical so i always kind of that followed the of mentors and people who were positioned to give me advice and so being practical i went from wanting to be an art major to doing business, which was difficult because i did not get the math and a lot of the english that i would have-- excuse me-- that i would have gotten had i attended high school so i had a high school equivalency before i entered the community college and i graduated probably with a gpa of 2.8 or something like that. i made the dean's list a couple of times and when i studied i made the dean's list. when i didn't i didn't, but i got that bachelors

in criminal justice because when i applied for jobs with a two-year degree in business i applied for jobs to be a floor manager and i was told i needed a four year degree. so, i decided okay i need a four year degree and i also need to be able to distinguish myself because i filled out enough job applications where i saw places that i could have distinguish myself if i had awards and honors and things to put in those places and so i made the decision that i needed to get another degree and i needed to be an honor student and i went through the college catalog and chose the field that had the least amount of math and i knew that i would do well in anything that was not too heavily mathematics, so i chose criminal justice. i also chose it because it was a combination of

political science, sociology, philosophy and psychology and those were things i was really interested in and i made that decision that i was going to be an honor student. i was working at the community college library at the same time, 40 hours a week, and i went to school full-time and i worked nights and weekends at the community college library and i read and purchased books on how to make a's in college, how to take objective tests, how to take essay exams and as you know i graduated magna cum laude and i won the prize for the highest gpa in criminal justice and i started a scholarship to while i was at the college for minorities that is the

constance j himmler scholarship so i worked full-time, i was a mother, sometimes having to take my children to work at night and went to school full-time, started a scholarship and that scholarship is still there, but criminal justice was chosen because it was a field i thought i would do well in. how is that for honor student? host: while, i agree with the math thing. well, welcome to in-depth, thank you for joining us here in book tv. this is our monthly in-depth program with one office-- other, his or her body of work in this month as professor and author doctor carol swain she started writing books and getting them published in 1993 with the black faces and black interest, representation africa-- african americans in congress and the next book came out in 2002, "the new white nationalism in america", debating immigration came out in 2000 people, "be the

people: a call to reclaim america's faith and promise" abduction: how liberalism steals our hearts and minds" came out in 2016 and she is a co-author of the "the 1776 report" which came out in 2021 as did "black eye for america" "be the people: a call to reclaim , currently a bestseller. we have been talking for about 35 minutes and now it's your turn to join the conversation. we welcome your questions and comments for care of swain. 202-748-8200 for those of you in east and central time zones. now, we will give it their number and this is for text messages only and if you send in a text message please include your first name in your city so we can identify that way if your 20 sue-- 202-748 202-748-8903.

again that is for text messages only. now if you cannot get through on the phone lines and you want to send a comment via social media we are on instagram, facebook, twitter at book tv is what you need to remember for that. before we-- guest: can i get something in? host: yes, ma'am. guest: i want viewers to know that there's an editing a book on action that i did and then there was contemporary voices of white nationalism that was edited and then i have a new book coming out next week on countercultural living where it -- what jesus has to say about life, marriage, wraiths and ethnicity, gender and materialism and that will be my first christian book. host: that is countercultural living what jesus has to say about life, marriage, race, gender and materialism coming out later this year or next year

guest: later this month and i think that release date might be september 13. host: and are you self-publishing that like you did "black eye for america" 32 now, that will be published by renewed dog org, but i'm working on a new book. i have a company called unity training solutions.com. and i am working on another book about the birth of unity training, how i came up with idea. so, i can tell you at this stage in my life and thinking about people's time and their needs, i'm writing shorter books and i'm writing them more quickly. host: what was it like to self publish "black eye for america"? guest: well, i mean, i had an expert guided me through the process, but anyone that's publish an academic book and maybe not even an academic book knows that the authors get lousy deals. they get a small

fraction and the publishers don't always invest that much in marketing the book and so the author has to market the book anyway. then, you don't own your own copyright and i just had a bad experience with one of my books and i made the decision that i wanted to own the copyright to my materials and that's part of why i self published and at some point i will write my memoir. i might use a traditional publisher but i don't really see the advantage of using one anymore because i can hire experts that know how to do the cover design and how to take it through the process and there are companies like ingram sparks where they can get your book in all the major bookstores and on amazon , so i don't see the need to have a traditional publisher. guest: of course, if i were an assistant professor somewhere i would have to have a traditional

publisher, but, i mean, i published at cambridge press, harvard press and other major presses, so i don't need to prove anything. host: what do you mean when you refer to the new white nationalism, your book that came out in 2002? what does that phrase mean? guest: first of all at one time i thought it was the most important book i had written in my life and maybe it was, but then with that new book "black eye for america" i now think that's the most important book and certainly the only one that was a bestseller. the new white nationalism did well. i think that the publisher title the book i wanted to have a different title, but what was knew about white nationalism, i thought, was that it was not the old style white supremacy neo-nazis and all of these things that people were focusing on like whenever they talked about you know

whites and white extremism, they would try-- trot out the clansmen with the missing teeth and the beer gut and person that could not string together three words for sentence. here today with trot that out and say all these ignorant stupid people, they are not capable of doing anything and i was interested in people that were putting forth a different kind of argument that was more intellectual. what got me really concerned and was the impetus for the book was that there were some high-profile hate crimes in the late 1990s an early 2000's where people went out and actually shot and killed people by their racist. i mean, that's not happening today at the level it was happening backbend. i became especially concerned when there was a young white college

students who had his mother, i think, was a realtor and his father was a doctor or something like that and he had an asian girlfriend and he went to college and he was radicalized by something called the world church of the creator, which was a neopagan religion and he went out and shot -- i think he killed it to people, but he shot 11 and then committed suicide. that's what got me interested in the book and i commissioned interviews with people that seem to be leaders of white rights, white nationalist organizations at the time, high-profile individuals and i had a white interviewer and that's what got me interested in it and what i found was that there were conditions where i felt converging and at that point in american history that

would create a devil's brew for racial unrest and i found that the language of the political left, the multiculturalism, the identity politics that it provided an argument for really all groups including whites to self identify by race to organize and the problem with the identity politics in the multiculturalism which really was saying that every group needed to organize and focus on their history and needed to do these things, but not white people and there was a double standard that i knew that would be problematic for young people and so i felt like the new white nationalism that we need to be concerned about was more intellectual. it's not one that was necessarily expressing violence. it was very much focused on double standards and

on perceptions of violation of civil rights. when i look at what's taking place today in america, i think very much about that book and i think about the warning in the conclusion of the book was that we needed to move away from identity politics towards the american national identity, that it was not good for us all to focus on our own group. what we thought was good for our group and not look at the whole like all americans, this is a multi ethnic multiracial nation, and it would not work if everyone is only trying to advance her own group interest. host: let's take some calls for carol swain starting with the glenn entry linda, michigan. glenn, you are on book tv. caller: thank you all very much. i am a big admirer of the professor. my question-- actually i just want to make a little comment first.

i think she is exactly right about america destroying itself from the inside and actually i'm surprised these radical move like al qaeda and isis haven't caught on in a big way. they all declare they are fighting white racism and that kind of stuff and yet we probably have people here taking a need for them now. anyway, my question is about afghanistan i was wondering what the professor thought if there were any lessons that can be learned yet from our defeat their and it is a defeat. no one should fool themselves about that and also, does she think we have a moral obligation to take in a big number of afghan refugees now? host: glenn, thank you. carol swain, anything that you want to address? guest: i mean, i'm just not an expert on foreign policy, but with afghanistan, i don't think

it had to happen, the exit the way it did. i think it's a disgrace that we left americans behind because in america we are supposed to take care of our own and if i were traveling overseas and there are people that travel all the time. as an american, i would be crushed by the idea that the state department, that the military that they aren't going to rescue me and it was just a disgrace what was done there. it even makes you wonder if the biden administration was being advised by islamists because everything that's happened benefited them and left billions of dollars of equipment behind. we left americans behind to be hostages. we have left behind the people who work for us and risk their lives. we have left them behind in its evil what we did and i see america-- god is not going to bless america because america

is a evil nation right now. not all americans are evil but our nation as a whole is quite evil and i don't see any good coming from it. as far as taking in refugees, the problem with the biden administration as far as i can see is that they are not taking in the right refugees. if the reports are to be believed that there are afghan men that bringing in child brides and the marriages are taking place just so that young men who it may be part of the taliban or al qaeda so that they can come into the u.s. i think we are opening up the floodgates to terrorism and so there's nothing wrong with taking refugees for the right reason, but i think that the islamists have a lot of importance-- influence over the u.s. and our politicians. i think it's monetary that congress has been bought and paid for and

this includes some republicans as well as democrats, so i have bipartisan criticism. i just think what we did was terrible. it's horrible. we have lost respect around the world, and i don't know how we regain it. it troubles me that we have done this horrible thing. host: duane is in greenfield, virginia. duane, you are on with author carol swain. caller: yes, ma'am, the first, and i would like to make, you said you were dark skinned. i don't see any skin-- i seen the glory of god all over you. guest: thank you. caller: i want to thank you for your life, thank your mother from me for your life and when you started talking about your religious experience that she experiences, the hair on my legs, my arms in the back of my

neck stood up the whole time you're talking. i just consider you a sister in christ. guest: thank you so much and i consider you a brother in christ and you know there is one race, the human race and the book by victor frankel, man's search for meaning, it's that there are two races of that man, the race of decent men and the race of the indecent, so there are decent men and there are indecent men, but there's only one race and that is the human race and if we would just show some love and respect for one another we would be able to get along and we would not have these problems in america that have been manufactured by people that hate america. host: and that goes back to carol swain's favorite book list that she sent to us from the king james bile, booker t.

washington, victor frankel's man a search for meaning and pollock wallow the alchemist. cornelius, alexandria, louisiana, please go-- i had with your question or comment. caller: i want to thank c-span and god bless everyone and being an african-american mrs. wayne, i hope you do a book to her and stuff, like i said i'm in alexandria louisiana. we have a bible college named louisiana bible college and doctor brewer i think you would be a great guest to have to talk about your book and everything so i don't know if you are going to do a book to her or anything like that. i served in the military. i was a military police officer and a staff. i'm glad to the caller and questioners are asking you about afghanistan. i didn't serve in that war. i served from 79 to 94, but i hope you will do a book to her work i plan to your book.

i hope you two are some colleges and stuff and god bless you and god bless america. thank you, mrs. wayne. guest: thank you. host: and it do you do book tours? do you enjoy them? guest: when people invite me too speak, but i self published my book so i don't have a publicist like people see me on tv. i come when they call me so c-span or msnbc or any of those places, you contact me and i always say yes because i think we need to do more conversing with one another and i think the solution to our race problem if we would just sit down and talk to one another that there would be greater understanding and less hatred. host: texas, please go ahead. caller: yes, thank you for the show. i believe there is the human race, but i believe that in the book

of hebrews in new testament the word of god says that we must run the race of life with perseverance and witness to cheer us on. how we live our life. what would be the legacies we live and the thing i get confused about, the 1619, 1776 and a 1665 which was the founding of saint augustine florida, the expander it's, so these different dates, there is a rolling number, but the 1619 is more of a english-- if we base things on the slavery and the expansion of it, it was based on english colonies whereas the spaniards in the french were different in the sense of their catholicism and then their religion and their culture.

let me ask you a question about the issues when we talk about america being great. do you think we are being deprived or that we lack the incentive to be multilingual if we are going to be a great basin because english-- guest: i'm sorry multilingual? caller: multicultural, if we are a melting pot, should our language be more than just english?

>> -inforeign countries where i did not know the language and i can remember i was in the tokyo airport in great pain with my stomach. and i had to without an interpreter go to a pharmacy in the airport and use my hands and gestures and stuff like that to get medicine. and i would imagine what it would be liketo be in a country where you did not speak english . so i think it's important for americans if they're interested to know other languages . but i also think that to hold our nation together you need a commonlanguage . a common, it has to have a common set of values but also the history and with the 1619 project, a noted historian on the political left have pointed out the inaccuracies

and some of them have been corrected but the whole idea that that flawed project found its way into 4400 schools 5, i find it very troubling as do i find teaching young people to hate america and really to hate each other because we are dividing our young people . children don't naturally think in terms of race. when they're playing together they're playing with their friends . with really ing their family orwhatever . whatever the name is. and they're not thinking my black friend or my white friends . it's only later they get racialized but the critical race theory agenda argues that babies as young as six months can be racist. and that young people need to be taught to see race and i

would argue that there's one race the human race we should not be focusing on our differences, we should be wh focusing on our common humanity . >> george close on our facebook page when iwas a young man segregation existed . i always worked to bridge that gap having close friends frommany ethnic groups . i'm fully convinced that systemic racism does notexist in america although it is clear a small minority would like to create this division . >> you know something, i tell people i was born 1954 and there was the year that ground brown versus board of education case, supreme court case that ended discrimination in public schools throughout america in virginia, we were the state of massive resistance to integration so as one in 54 was late 68 i believe when schools integrated in virginia. but i watched on television the civilrights movement take

place .en and i watched the signing of the 1964 civil rights act. the 1965 voting rights act 1. the 1968 open housing and i watched systemic racism in america collapse under the weight of law. made made us equal under the law. and the discrimination and prejudice that still exists. in america and in the world that is because of individual discrimination and prejudice. we don't have systemic racism in americaeven though there's some people that are trying to bring it back . and for the viewers that may describe themselvesas progressives , what progressives are doing, they are re-segregating our children . in colleges and universities are encouraging separate class sections. .eparate graduations separatism and there's some

public schools that are sort of separating the black kids and that was part of what the civil rights movement fought against and it's a violation of civil rights clause and i would encourage people if you don't agree with that and we've already made a decision about what kind of nation we are when you passed the civil rights act and the amendment, we need to push back against this. this cuts across racial ethnic and partisan lines. we do not need to be divided and this is wrong on many levels but it's also illegal and unconstitutional and my new w book black eye for america: how critical race theory is burning down the house has s gestures on how to push back and we have to push

back andi believe critical race theory and all this stuff that's taking place right now that it will collapse in the next couple of years because it is illegal andtiunconstitutional and it is hurting our children, all of our children . it's telling black children that they are victims and you look at my story . i was successful because i did not see myself as handicapped because i was black and poor and a woman and at one point single mother. all those things i could have used as excuses i believed in the american dream. i worked hard and as a consequence i have been able to overcome the circumstances of my birth. be the person i am today. a lot of people poured into my life and they were not all people that looked like me. >> if you can't get through on the phone lines you can text a message into author carol swain. 202748 89 03. again that's just for text messages. include your first name of your city.cl fortune is falling in fromnew york city, good afternoon . >> listening to doctor swan i

must agree that she sounds very impressive . but there needs to be some clarifications . made based on certain comments that you made. first you said systemic racism existed in 2021 but i disagree with that fact. the fact is there's systematic racism in this country and you look back at it you have black men that are still being targeted by police departments and you have black men that are not given the opportunity based on their qualifications and this goes for black males and black females as well. i understand you are able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps which is great but

not everyone has that ability . but if we have a system where everyone can do something because him or her as a god-given ability, it should not be an issue but the issue that we are facing is not here in america, it's just that once you are a certain group you are targeted by certain institutions and i would like to hear your comments based on that . >> are you going to let me answer? >> host: before we hear from u doctor swain tell us about yourself . >> i'm a teacher at a public high school and i understand the history of this country, 1619, we can go back and forth. we can call it this but the mere fact is that this

country is racism racism and you yourself said it was a sin and i like to know whatis your perspective on the new form of racism . >> we've got the point, thank you very much. >> personal i sympathize with the caller and his perspective and i do have two sons, two adult sons. one is 50 and the other one is 47. so i raise my children and so i'm familiar and i'm probably telling everyone more than they need to knowtewhat i've been married twice . and so i know the perspective that he articulates. and we don't have to agree on everything. i think that it's important to look at as far as the

police areconcerned , i think that if you actually look at the data there are fewer ... there are certainly fewer cases of black men being shot by weiss white police officers today. i'm not talking about this year but if you look at the if historical data, things have improved and they improved a long time ago. what happens often with the media is that they do take a case. they replay it over and over again. based on a small bit of information and it inflames the passions.i think in the blackcommunity , we do have a lot of problems and all those problems are not related to racism. some of them are related to people's choices and their circumstances and we do have a right and an ability to choose and if you look at the black primary and the black

on black victimization rate there are problems in the black community that cause them to have more interactions with police than they should. and i think that for the black community to thrive in so many ways that we have to focus on changing some of the behaviors in our own community. wehave to take the responsibility . what people cannot make us equal when there are other factors involved. and we look at the disparities when it comes to learning and academic success. there are studies that show that study time that black children spend the least amount of time studying of any group that includes the middle-class blacks. asian studies the most and then white and it goes down with blacks studying the least amount of time and if you look at the crime rate

and especially the black on black crime rate that is shameful. and i don't think that you can always blame other people because there's always there's always been people like me and i don't consider myself the exception. i didn't say i pulled myself up by my bootstraps.i there are a lot of people that helped me by the way there were a lot of helping hands but i was willing to work hard . i didn't have anyone out there telling me i was a victim or i couldn't do something because of the color of my skin or the fact that i was a woman or core. i believed in the american dream and i did not have people telling me the negative messages that black children received today that they are victims and that racism is permanent.that police hate them and are out to get them. i know many police officers and i know they have stories just like i have a story about why they became a police officer and in many cases these are people that

were called into that profession and maybe as a child they had their own encounter with a police officer who rescued them so these are human beings and like any profession you might have people that shouldn't be in it but t the vast majority of police officers are caring loving human beings that are doing a job that we need them to do and it's so unfortunate that we have this narrative that is anti-police, that is focused so much on the negativity because it is not constructed for our society and so i mean, that's pretty much what i have to say about that. i respect what the caller has to say. i disagree with him and i believe that the black community of which i am a part that we have to do more by ourselves and i don't believe in this equity thing where you give equal outcomes

but for unequal effort. i believe in equal opportunity. that's what i experienced was equalopportunity. i made decisions to study and become an honor student. i didn't go to the parties. i madedecisions when other people might have been playing or on vacation i was hitting the books . and i worked while i was in college. i worked as a sales clerk. i worked at a nursing home . i worked in -tthe garment factory. i've sold things door-to-door so i'm not some person that has not worked menial jobs and i know the possibilities that america offers and there's never been a better time to be black in america. i believe people should stop complaining, roll up their sleeves and start working because we've never had it better. i hate this critical race theory. the lies is telling our children. it is destroying america. we are destroying it from

within with our negative anti-american messaging. >> host: angie is calling in from cincinnati, good afternoon. >> caller: i miss swain. i want to say that you have just lifted my spirits today in a huge way. you know, i was raised to believe that i was less than. and that feeling less than took me to places that i andon't ever want to go again. so i believe that being black was bad because that's what i was taught. that i would never be anything more than just that and i fit into that for a very long time. i believe that what has to happen in the black community is that we do have to have

some uncomfortable conversations about what's going on in our communities . and we have to take that on ourselves to do just that. and that at some point you've got to put the stick down, stop beating yourself up and move forward or you're going to be stuck. i was stopped for a long time and i don't ever want to feel that hopelessness and that fear, that never again. both my kids went to college, both my kids are doing well and it's because you have to break the cycle at some point. the mentality of it. i can tell you about myself. we have siblings and siblings savings. i was called fish eyes and frankenstein. i have a star coming down here so i thought i was the ugliest person in the world until i got into my early 20s

and people said you're attractive. then when i married and i want to marry for lovei was thrilled anyone would have me because my self-esteem was so low . those were things that affected the choices that i made. some of the choices i made . but i don't know that it was black but i g certainly felt awkward, unattractive. the negativity. so i madebad choices to . >> next call for carol swain comes from lily in stevensville maryland . >> i want to say thank you so much for you being you, your life and all that you've accomplished. and your courage in doing what you thought was right regardless of the feedback you got and for the even

abusive language that the things people said about you when you became a believer and did what you thought was right there. and i wanted to also say to me a lot of what many of our problems in the country it seems like they are labeled as race but i can speak for myself, i feel close to people based on our spiritual beliefs and it doesn't matter at all what color someone is. it just is irrelevant or even our backgrounds. my background is very different from yours but i relate to all of it because there's just some commonalities there also i'm so angry about afghanistan and the way that's been handled and it seems to me that there's quite appreciate

yourcomments. anything you want to address . especially from earlier comments. >> i appreciate the young ladies call and i understand what she said about my faith and i think a lot of our problems relate to socioeconomics. social class because when i was working in those menial jobs i was working alongside poor whites and we all wanted that $.10 for $.25 an hour raise. we all wanted it and all needed it. we all wanted better for our children. i go back to one race, the b human race and within christianity, if it works the way it'ssupposed to work we are all brothers and sisters in christ . we love one another and my relationship with people of other races, i don't see their race, i justsee my friends and i wish people could love one another . i'd be so caught up on external things and things

that don't reallymatter . i just wish people would realize there is an agenda behind dividing us and it's part of what's destroying america. >> and 2016 carol swain's book production howliberalism steals our children's hearts and minds came out and in that book she writes the academic world is defined by ultra ruralrelevant relativism . what is cultural relativism . >>it ties into again, this is part of the postmodernism , and cultural marxism. all of the these feed into critical theory. but it's like there's no absolute truth. all cultures are the same. and so there's no right and wrong and that is part of the

message that you get universities and it's a cultural relativism. at one time the political left said they wecould not judge, that there were no absolute truths but now they seem to have identified some absolute truths. and in many ways have become ... i mean, they have their own religion going on and they decide who's in and who's out, who's to be canceled. and you we haven't talked about this but i would say i was canceled because of an opinion that i expressed and that we've strayed so far from the whole idea of america being a nation where you have some freedom and our first amendment, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association that there are people that would totally upend and destroy our constitution so we are

regressing as a nation and as a people. and i think that with reduction, we wrote that book and with a man that has been a pastor because we thought we saw so many young people that were raised in christian homes and families went off to college, secular college. it could also be a christian college but i think even they were questioning their faith and by christmas they were atheists. so what the political left they had an agenda. secularism and atheism are there just operating justlike a religion . and we want parents to know what their children would encounter when they went off to school and also what was taking place in our public schools even k-12 with the sexual agenda and various things children were being exposed to that many parents were not aware of.

>> this is a text message for you. my name is ellen. what is your opinion of the new laws restricting access to voting in texas and georgia among others. >> i don't see new laws restricting access to voting. i think the voting rights act and its various extensions because it was first enacted in 1965 is has been extended many times and the voting rights act was to remove barriers to voting. there are no barriers today the stuff now with the balance harvesting that thesupreme court has ruled against where people were sent absentee ballots they didn't request . i know some relatives in virginia that never voted that people showed up at their door two or three people with balance pretty much demanding that t these people vote which they did.

this whole thing is not how a democratic republic is supposed to operate . and so i think that edwe need ballot integrity. i think that is problematic to have days and days where people can turn in ballots without really checks for identification. i think there should be national identification. that it's not a problem for americans because you cannot live in this nation without having identification. if you want public assistance you have to have identification to be able to sign up to get a check. if you want social security you have to have identification. so it's not a problem. i don't see this. i think that the democratic party, and i hate to be partisan but this divides parties. i think the democratic party has an agenda that they're

using racial and ethnic identities, in particular re black people to advance their own agenda . and that this whole thing about voting rights being impeded. voting rights are not being impeded. what they're trying to do is take away each state ability to govern its own voting laws to nationalize that. that is s not in our interest for the federal government to have more power in georgia in several statesthere were things done in the last election . there were documented election irregularities put in place because of covid and i think those measures that were allowed because of the covid pandemic that they should not be allowed in 2022 even though i think there's a lot of people who would like to bring back those restrictions and they would like to use covid again. >> you mentioned being canceled. what happened?

>> it's a long story. >> host: we have 35 minutes left. >> guest: i've always been considered a provocative thinker and i've always been transferred and it's like if i try not to be transparent it doesn't work. i was borntransparent. but january 15 2015 , this was after the charlie hebdo attack in france i wrote an opinion piece that criticized islam and i said that islam was not like other religions. that it posed a threat to us. and i talked about the need for muslims to understand our constitution and i realized that set off a firestorm. nothing i've ever done in my life was as controversial as that.the day after the newspaper published the article in tennessee i knew

that life as i've noted in the past wasover . and it resulted in protests of me and i was called a bigot and a hater. i was harassed. for more than a year and it was a factor in my making a decision to leave academia and i had people lie on me wthere were protests. these were student protests. these were not students that had ever taken classes withme . there were students from other universities that did a change.org petition and they had a petition to have me first fired and they realize she's tenured, you can't fire her and they wanted me suspended and they realize she's tenured, you can't do that. then they wanted me to be forced to go through mandatory sensitivity training and they found out they couldn't do that. but it was a very stressful

period in my life but i found myself labeled, harassed, marginalized. call all sorts of names and it was very hurtful and two years later i made the decision to take early retirement and a lot of that had to do with i didn't want to be in a stressful environment and at my age i'm thinking i cannot be doing my best work under these circumstances. this is not where i need to be. so i struck out on my y own and i started to businesses. carol swain enterprises, unity training solutions and i have a nonprofit, a 501(c)(3). and pretty much on out there in the world sharing my views and i say my classroom was the world. welcome to my classroom. my classroom is the world. through greater videos and

various things i've been doing reach over 77 million people. far more people than i could agree have reached in a university classroom. so for those people who tried to cancel me and to end my influence by pressuring me, they actually gave me a bigger platform. in fact the more people attacked me the more followers i picked up on social media so please, attack me. attack me some more. >> 30 minutes left in our conversation with carol swain. nick is in monroe new jersey, go ahead . >> professor, thank you for your work. it's really appreciated. i see that you have much in common with other black conservatives like selby steele or tom sowell and others. and i guess i make an assumption that you collaborate and support each other.

now, i wonder with all of that work and from my perspective i think you're having an enormous impact on conservatives who are defined themselves as conservatives but i wonder if you're having an impact on in your view on the black community at large and to move some of the black community towards a more conservativepoint of view . >> i think i am and i ran for mayor in nashville in 2018 and 2019 and i made it a point to campaign in the black community and in fact in 2019 my office was set up in a historically black area. and i greatly got to know people. they got to know me. i had a great experience and i came in number two, first election number three the second election. i was grossly outspent by the

other candidates. and nashville is a city that never had a republican mayor. iran is a republican but i had some democrats endorse me and it was a great experience but now i am working with the organization that candace moore started. they have a foundation and i've been to their rallies and i do a little short segments for them. a little show called against all odds where i talk about mymy life and my experiences. and i have met just scores of young black and hispanic conservatives and some of them became conservatives because they watched one of thmy videos or they saw me somewhere so i have an army of young people and they're not just black. i would say they kind of crossed every race and ethnicity whosupport me, who

follow me . i love them and some of them tell me i wish you were my mother or my grandmother or you remind me of my mother or grandmother. i don't mindbeing reminded of their grandmother . but i think i am making an impact with young people and i think that we can do better in america. and it's goes back to how we treat each other. and us seeing that humanity in all individuals and doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. i hate the critical race theory and the diversity equity and inclusion training that's focused on dividing americans. let's keep them critical race theory and marxism. that will not bring about racial reconciliation. racial reconciliation for it to occur you have to have people working together. working together across racial and ethnic lines. it cannot be an unequal

relationship where one group is expected to do all the other work and the other group is expected to receive. you have to work and as people partners and when it comes to the black community, one of the books that i talked about as having impacting my life is booker t. washington's up from slavery. that's the book i read as a child. i believe it was a factor in my quest for education. and booker t. washingtoncame out of slavery . and he was able to get an education because he wanted an education. he worked very hard for that education and he became the founder of teske university in alabama. and i think that a lot of young people were talking about systemic racism. explaining about what they can't do because of racism. they need to read booker t. washington's up from slavery and when we talk about black wall street and the racism of white people we need to talk about e the fact that black

wall street was established at and created less than 60 years after slavery ended. so these were blacks that did not get government loans set aside but they were able to build a community and a city part of town that was the envy of the area. until the lights that were involved in burning down black wall street there was a lot of jealousy involved. ththere was black success that was not based ongovernment loans and handouts . >> host: carol swain, what's your advice for somebody who wants to run for office . >> i think they need to sit down and figure out why they want to run for office. we have to many people that want to run for office. i think that you need people who are not running for office because they wantthe power. they want to go to congress or go somewhere and stay in

office . we need people who are willing to make a sacrifice. but they have something going for themselves. they're not down on their luck that they arewilling to step away from a profession , step away from something to pour themselves into the nation and into the betterment of everyone and that they are willing to lose all this. if they are called to do something that's unpopular. we have to many people there for themselves and if you run for office make sure you know why you want to runfor office . is it about you or is it about the nation as a whole? there are too many people in both political partiesthat should not be in power .>> would you do it again? >> guest: who me? i don't think i'm called to run for office. god called me to hold politicians accountable. if someone approached me

about an appointment i would have to wait it very seriously . i would pray about it and i've learned never to say never because if you spoken to me five years ago and asked me would i ever run for office much less mayor, you know like me, run for mayor maybe i would consider running for the senate or something mayor, number i'd say number i would tell you if i were called for office and yet i did run for office so i've learned never to say never but it's not something that i think that i aspired to do. i think i have more influence doing things that i'm doing right now. >> host: mount vernon new york, go ahead milton. >> caller: listen, i'm 81. wife and i have beenmarried 56 years i think it is . we set foot in every state

and i don't know how many countries we visited. i was in the military 26 years. so we both are retired now and i've done a lot of thinking about the status of our nation in general. so much is involved on how children are raised. you need to have two parents in the family, that's number one . hopefully umthe gentleman if not the wife also are working. and so i think our faith, my faith as a christian as i look back on my life it's so key in terms of living a clean proper sensible life. as i think the lord has prepared for us. we don't have to two parents in the family and we don't teach the children the good things that the bible tells us, we don't lie,

we don't steal. all those things. so so many of our kids don't have that opportunity to know that that's the waythat once you live . and thank you for your comments sir. pro. >> i agree and all this focus racism and equity. research shows that a young person born in poverty if they finish high school if they get a job. if they wait until they are married to have their first child, they're not likely to be poor. any household single-parent heads. by a woman or by a man that's a single parent, they'regoing to be poor . and a lot of the problems do stems from poverty and the lo fact that you have broken homes yet we have people that argue that the traditional family that that's a european idea. that their hard work is a european idea that mass are

racist. that standard english is racist. planning for the future is racist. all that dooms people to failure because many of us who have been successful and i'm sure that among your viewers we have a lot of successful people and people in professions know that you have to get to places on time. and you have to learn math and standard english. there's so many things that in having the moral background and the fiber or the values, those things are important. they don't belong to white people. they belong to all people. >> carol swain as our guest on book tv author of these books, blank spaces like interests, the representation of african-americans in congress which came out in 1993. nethe new white nationalism in america 2002. debating immigration.

we the people a call to replace america's faith and promise came out in 2011. production, liberalism steals our children's arts and minds in 2016. the 1776 report and black eye for america. how critical the spirit is burning down the house both came out this year. and she has another book coming out shortly this year. countercultural living with what jesus has to say about life, marriage, race, gender and materialism. carol swain on your twitter feed it says we the people is your trademark brand. what does we the people need? >> it's a call to the we the people in the preamble of the constitution . to stand up and be the people who reclaim our nation andour world. and when i wrote abthe book i was concerned about our country . and that was the first book where i really focused on adjudicating with the

american people rather than with my colleagues. so my later book have been books that were not written for an academic audience. with the exception of debating immigration and so debating immigration there are two volumes, 2007and 2018 . those are essays. they are not intended for a audience but these new books were written for the american people. i just wanted to take us back to our judeo-christian roots and there are some founding documents that iththink that every american should read . and every when i say every american i'm talking about immigrants and people that are here in america. i want to be part of our culture andthat would include the declaration of independence .o the constitution. and i would say even the 10 commandments in the bible because of the 10 commandments has been brought american laws and values across our nation.

that's blue laws came from and to understand america you have to understand the documents that people found important. and if that will be the people. there's a chapter on america's founding and i deal with different sides of the issue.lots of citations. and there's this book by craddick and more, the godless constitution that points out that god is not mentioned in the constitution. and that was done because of not because the people were trying to keep religion out. they considered religion sacred and so that was a conscious decision not to have a religious document when they drafted the constitution but i think every american needs to read those documents. and understand what it means because those documents laid the groundwork for everything that happened subsequently.

blacks being given the right to vote. women being given the right to vote. the civil rights act that followed. all that has come out of who we are as a people and in america we made lots of mistakes but we've always tried to remedy t our mistakes. and we have, our nation became the envy of the world. i feel like the america that i loved as a child has motivated me to reach for the american dream. that that nation no longer exists. and i see that america is teetering on the edge of a precipice and i believe that we can fall . to china iran. or any other of russia. hostile nations because we are we turn our back on god. we are a godless nation. we deserve judgment that's why i can't say god bless

america. i hated it comes out of the lives of people who are destroying america. >> host: terry in las vegas says i'm still trying to figure out the math on this one. >> me too. you think about just think about the racism behind and this was a gate. bill gates funded study of no mathematics. the young children that are being taught that math is racist and that teachers should not demand right answers from minority students ensuring some students will not grow up to bemathematicians, scientists, doctors, pharmacists , nurses . anywhere you would wear a mask because some require a

mask and as a person who struggles with mass math i still have to learn math. i took remedial mapping community college. i had to get through those physics courses and my first book black racist black interests i have multiple regressions in there. i have in there because i have learned to get my phd. it was like water off a ducks back, ilearned what i had to learn and forgot it but i had to learn to get through school. >> people calling in from santa monica california. good afternoon . >> caller: first i'd like to say i agree with the professor that we are one human race. that is why i actually would like us to stop even using the term racism and referring to that two things as racially different and racially constructed because we are all one race and that's human. that said, tthis country that we live in that is going through what it's going through was indeed founded on the myth of white supremacy

and i don't understand how teaching that is teaching hate. it's just teaching the truth. i'm married to a white man. i love my white brothers and sisters and i want us all to do better. and that is why i think it's important that the myth of white supremacy be looked at. in full sunlight and that we acknowledge this act within those founding documents, the constitution. black people were said to be 3/5 of a human. they forgot all the wonderful things that came out of the constitution. ngthe amendment to the constitution, the amendments. these were all things that had to be fought for. and i daresay that no one thinks that women who fought for years for the right to vote hated men. they just also wanted to be at the table with demand. >> let me tell you something,

i appreciate your call but that's racist calls of the constitution you really need to look that up because that is a false narrative. when the constitution was s ratified it had nothing to do with black people being considered 3/5 of a human being. it had to do with presentation in congress. and it had was the non-slaveholding onnorthern states that force for the compromise because during their time each state was awarded a representative per 30,000 persons and in the south they had 600,000 slaves . they were pushing to their slaves as population. the north would not allow them to do that too than us old people because it would have given them more representatives in congress so the battle over how many representatives they were going to get in congress so the people that actually pushed for the 3/5 clause were the abolitionists. so that's something you can

look up even wikipedia gets that one right. and so that bothers me. like, i was taught like you heard and i heard educated people, some of them with law degrees repeating what is a false narrative and all i that is easily refuted by just going to the research. that's what america being a white supremacist country, the first people here in this nation we go back to 1619 america was not founded. it's 1776 with the declaration of independence. that was when the nation that we call america, the united states of america icwas founded. 1776, not 1619. then we were a british colony . the initial what we call

slavery was censorship where people were released after seven years and many of those people who had been indentured servants, they themselves got indentured servants though they got slaves and slavery became permanent much later and was agreed that caused it to become permanent. there are always free blacks in america. they came here through the african slave trade. they came here through that but there were free blacks. many of them held slaves themselves, not just family members but we want to talk about slavery we need to talk about the fact that native americans as well as whites a and blacks held slaves. so slavery is a stain on all-america, not just on one group. >> victor canoga park california please go ahead with your question or comment.

>> and you doctor swain. senior interviews on booker t. washington. my quick question, so before i have to question why did you become, when was this transition from the democrats to republican and number one, number two i've noticed that i huge list of intellectuals like you in the black community that are republicans kind of. there were out of the country. they don't belittle schematic racism. but blacks and leftists in the democrats they paid the country. but you must have credit. >> i think we've got two questions i couldn't understand his questions

clearly. one is he asked me when i became a republican, what was the second question . >> the second was that black conservatives academics scholars are proud of the us in his view while democrats and leftists are not so much. >> i stated earlier in the program that i had a christian conversion experience late 1990. what 1999 2000 i became a christian believer and as i grow in my faith i became less comfortable with the democratic party. and if you are a christian and you read the platforms of the two political parties, they're very clear and very different. what they stand for so i became uncomfortable with the platform and some things that democratic candidates were advocating but i was not ready to become a republican. i became an independent.

i was an independent until 2009 and in 2008 president bush appointed me to the national endowment for the and to the tennessee advisory committee to the us civilrights movement . civil rights commission i'm sorry. so those were two political appointments and during that time i was appointed by a republican president i started getting invited to various events and i got tope know some republicans personally . and i initially was going to be the independent, throw rocks at both political parties but at some point i decided for one thing i didn't feel that i could vote for democrats any longer based on their party platform and what they stood for. because of my faith and i realized that the republican party tis imperfect. we are all imperfect as we

are human beings but that it lined up closer to what i believed so i made a decision in 2009 to become a republican. and so that's how i became a republican. and then black conservatives, they have varying views. there are different views of conservatism. i'm a christian conservative. some of them are libertarian. we differ quite a bit. but i do think that we all love america and we believe, i mean i grew up believing that was the greatest nation in the world but now when i learn more about saying our nation is done and the shame of afghanistan and various things that our nation allowed to take place throughout history, i realized it wasn't as great as i thought it was but again, where all imperfect. what we have in america is a lot of people i think that want to do the right thing

and i think that the average american is not a racist. that they love their fellow man. they want to get along this cuts across whites and blacks. also know that the average black person very much like the average white person have more in common than we do. more in common than we do in differences. and that people just want to get along. live their lives, and not be discriminated against whether you're white or black or some other group. you don't want discrimination and i think if we did not have so many quote leaders being out there pushing their own agendas that we would have a better nation and we would have a better world because the people that are leading us now are being dead wrong. some of them by foreign powers and some of them are people that they don't care about the communities that they represent.

they care about staying in office and we don't need anymore political leaders like that. so if there's someone out there again you're wondering whether you should run for office if you want to run for office or the power , and it's not because you care about people and you care about making a better nation and better world , you needto stick with what you're doing . >> host: shannon, newark delaware. trying to get this last call . newark delaware. turn down the volume on your tv. we're going to move on. john in hershey pennsylvania. you're our last caller. >> caller: it's a great show. i have an incredible amount of respect for your guest. i believe you put yourself in a dangerous position with her political views being an african-american. i shudder to think of the

threats that you receive. i just have a couple of quick comments. i happen to believe that two of the major evils or disasters institutions in our country that have become disasters our education and the democratic party. >> host: i think we've got his point. carol swain, backto higher education and education in your book abduction . >> guest: you wanted to respond to the caller? >> host: yes ma'am. >> guest: as far as threats and fear, we're all going to die one day and we don't know the matter of our deaths.

people are terrified if you're supposed to die of covid you die of covid. i happen to believe as a christian there's a time and place for my death that's already known. it's written in the book and icannot live my life in fear .i will live as long as god wants me to live so i don't allow threats. like people has taken everything from me that they have taken from me and yet i thrive. and i thrive because of god's protection but if something should happen to me i didn't believe anything would happen until my work is done and when my work is doneit will matter . the most important thing i think for people is to realize that you're going to die. lives for something that's going to make a difference for someone else. and what was the other part of the question? >> host: most dangerous institutions in america.

>> guest: i think the democratic party has been taken over by a radical fringe group because i've been a democrat most of my life and democrats were not always what they aretoday . for people who aredemocrats , you need to take your party back because what i see in washington and what i see around me, that is not the democratic party i grew up around. and i live, i've lived long enough to remember the time when democrats and republicans worked together. they were not as polarized as they are right now. and the congress, the democrats and republicans should have the national interest and because of the lobbyist and the money they get from various interests, they're not representing us. there representing themselves . and i don't know what you do about congress.

our institution whether it's executive branch, the judicial branch or the legislative branch, they are broken institutions and our schools have been taken over by other critical race theorist and it's not just critical race theorists. there are othercritical theories. there's the critical queer theory, feminist theory . heterosexuals against homosexuals, blacks against whites . more people against rich people. it's marxism and it's all about division. it doesn't have to be that way. i would encourage americans of goodwill to push back across political lines, across religious lines. we don't have to live this way. we can restore our nation but we have to get rid of our leaders and we have to decide what's important to us and we have to reclaim the media the media. every institution has been taken over . i listed 1984 as a favorite

book but people need to read orwell's 1984because we are living an orwellian nightmare . it doesn't have to be that way. >> host: carol swain's latest book is called black eye for america. shehas been our guest on in-depth . >> .. . ♪♪

>> charter communications along with these television committed c-span2 is a public service. >> with the u.s. senate not in session, join us this week for book tv tonight, a look at recent in-depth programs. we begin with ross gothic on conservative in america. bad religion and "the decadent society", america before and after the pandemic. two hours later, can dunbar. the women's liberation movement, phonic united states and more. outlaw woman indigenous people from a history of united states and not a nation of immigrants. after that, carol swain served as vice chair doesn't jump 1776 commission. she talks about critical race theory, the 1619 project, immigration and more. her books include we the people, 1776 report and recently

published black eye for america. tonight 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2 and you can access our programs on mynetworktv.org or follow along on c-span now. >> a new mobile video are from c-span. download today. ♪♪ >> next from a book tv's monthly in-depth program with author and new york times columnist ross got "the decadent society" "the deep places", and what about his five-year struggle with lyme's disease. >> new york times columnist and ross douthat. religion and conservatism and etc., let's talk about your newest book, "the deep places". what happened to you in 2015.