jason emerson, to nearly a decade traveling across the united states visiting and research in numerous archives, and historic places and he was studying the 82 plus years in the life of lincoln, writer emerson focused on the president's oldest son, is a union soldier, a minister of great britain, the u.s. secretary of war, and the president of the chicago based home and car company and jason emerson is historian has been writing about the lincoln family for over 20 years. >> on this episode a book knows, is available on c-span now app or wherever you get your podcast. >> i am robert the president of ai and i am happy to welcome you all to this i think really to be a terrific conversation it with three wonderful people and i want to start out by mentioning

it the person's ornament who made us do this and get it done and get it done fast and kept as inspired and that is selling when it first came to a.i. about eight years ago, this very second scholar that i met after the great john was sally and she welcomed me to this wonderful community so warmly and kindly but that she also showed me through her work and mental illness and addiction it in healthcare and how to be a great scholar and a been inspired by her work every sense i am so happy that she told us that we had to bring our special guest, michael shellenberger to the a.i. and the latest book san francisco, or how you say this, i think i got it wrong. the second subtitle i like that a lot and i will say to get why progressives ruin cities as someone who comes from new york city, has been sometime in the

'90s and in 2000, trying to make new york city better for them but it has become and 70s 80s, thisfr book has struck a particular note. so great book and we had a lovely conversation about it upstairs and you will hear great conversation today with sally representing a.i. and her work and also director and policy studies program, he also is a great scholar cities and urban politics and ways in which not so much things have gone wrong, but how things can get better and be improved to make communities more conducive to human flourishing which what we are all as a drafter i think that's what i wanted to say to introduce is great panel discussion i do want to welcome michael to the stage is also written another book anyone without, will it seems like just yesterday that you run a populist neighbor which is also in a way kind of challenge to the progressive on another big issue so isiv remarkable that yu

can cover the so well and with that i'm going to turn it over to sally ryan michael and welcome and thank you for being here printed. [applause] >> actually wanted to start by having you say that a full paragraph or two about the book aand then will ask you some questions and then we have an hour so we will try to end about 140, excuse me to party and take questions from everyone else. >> thank you is a pleasure to be back here and eight eri and is in place that i have to really respect and rely on and sally is an important source of inspiration for this book and i have come to agree with her on blood can even but certainly on the issues that a big part of the reason for the current

opioid epidemic is due to be the mystery or lack of treatment of mental illness. a lot of people were self-medicating when they should been getting better medical care and i worked and i'm most known for my work on the environment, my book on the environment was published last year braided apocalypse never,, headed chance to do a follow-up to attend this was the topic of really wanted to do. my aunt, laid out as his friend yeah and she was never homeless, she did very well without mental illness and lived in a group home in g denver. and i had two friends from high school that had both died from convocations related to drug addiction and homelessness another friend still struggling with long-term cocaine and alcohol addictions predict i live in berkeley, california, san francisco and these are part of the world that i absolutely love and i am a very sensitive

person to hand it still is urgently more moderate than i was the radical left, i'm stilld sensitive to the humanitarian crisis on our streets which is both a particular challenge of the progressive west coast but also must be know that we had 90000 people died of drug overdoses and poisoning/year. absolutely horrible epidemic in the most famous one is the opioid basis which starts with the over prescription opioid becomes a heroin epidemic and is now in fentanyl which is a synthetic opioid an incredibly deadly and have came from fentanyl and also in a terrible mess epidemic it actually another really terrific book month byt, early next entered road dreamland which is a book about the opioid crisis in his new book is about the meth crisis some excited to be here. also i've been influenced by another scholar at a.e.i. and in

particular by the work he's done around social programs in the united states and in i'm making an argument that we are dealing with the drug and we go through that in san fran sicko and that this is not a function of rising property or reagan's cost to the housing budget which is one of the chestnut that progressives like to tell braided, soccer. i'm honored and grateful to be on the stage. >> i'm going to askon the first question predict so we all looked at each other and but anyway, one of the things in th, is an excellent book pretty when .you talk about the history of

homelessness, could you encapsulate that for the folks. >> there were goes back to the early 20th century but became a propaganda word in the 1980s and by that, i mean, that it was deliberately chosen to mislead people about the nature of the people we call homeless on the streets and that is not my opinion, this is something that numerous scholars pointed out in the early 90s and harvard broke one of the best books on homelessness and it was clearly decided to get people to think about the problem about housing act and these people are homeless within the frame is, as a dealing with the problem of poverty and housing act because that's just howit the framing ad cognitive in this brains work so homeless is really designed to trick the brain and thinking is a problem of distracting us from

what is going on which is really almost a drug addiction in the 1980s, there was a crack and alcohol epidemic, those were the two drugs appeared into the 80s that led to homelessness and than jargon that would be used as his word just affiliation, the basic picture is that you become addicted to alcohol or other substances in drugs and you stop working to service your addiction all day long and you see with family and friends and so you'd steal from them the borrow from them and they kick you are they separate themselves from you, is very traditional pattern the new enough of the street braided so i think the radical left to some extent the broader left, as in a real disservice to those in need of medical care and some intervention in legal or voluntary, but instead we been providing them with housing

which is not served them well. >> yeah a lot of the book about moral foundation theory and most folks know that, can you apply the both, psychoanalysis and i don't know if that's were provided to the advocates in the politicians printed. >> sure, so the big pray in san fran sicko not to be the politicians, it is not was really the big parade was the advocates in intellectual architects of this discourse on his way of thinking and also i think the other big pray is that the religious symbols behind all of this and so apocalypse never argued is a religion, has immorality and vision of the

supernatural similarly that "san fran sicko" makes his same argument, and his second in the trilogy of books i'm doing on the books within and so i try to understand this religion now called roque religion were describing these same things in person to the best work on this is jonathan heights at new york university, he is a cofounder of the foundation theory which argues that all religions, allt major religions have foundational value and that what the progressives have done emphasize the one of the six valleys above all the others and it is care compassionate care is the word he uses. i mostly agree but we went further i think to argue that this religion also arguing kind

of the sickness kind of this unchecked compassionate, not balanced by which you might call old testament values are not bound byon discipline or accountability or responsibility and we go further and argue that the victim ologies, his robe religion does actually redefine all five of the other values along with care with the victims so one of the six moral foundations is the value of sanctity. in a traditional morality that you might say, is immoral to contaminate your body with drug because your body is sacred and you should care for your body or it's wrong to allow people to camp on the sidewalk or defecate on the sidewalk because you violate the sanctity of the community predict the new view

is that they would say that we shouldn't protect the sanctity of the victims in the bodies and so the victims should be free to do whatever they wantwa because the victims themselves are holy, theirho sacred so would violate this sanctity of the victims by correcting them for four for breaking the law including things related to their addictions and someone i found and what i would say the book is thatad the radical left folks defending people being alex on the street and because of bodily autonomy which is way of saying, the bodies are sacred and they should not be what we should the sanctity of it is violated by the system but it would not be violated by drugs and by the same thing for example, one of the questions is technology, is a concern with victims, why are

progressives solelyiv concerned about african americans killed by police were not concerned with a 30 times more after karen and entered african americans killed by civilians in this interesting and the answer is that only the system can be victimizing. so if the honduran drug dealer stabs a drug addict with a machete, which occurs frequently as retribution for notcu paying, the thought iso important ask r to be concerned of with as being one by the system and what is evil and some states is foolhardy that corruption democrats people. >> to learnti and write about te book is a political structure that enables that because it's really compelling argument about the ideological and religious sort of structure is taken over a lot of people's minds and yet

it expresses itself differently in different places politically last 20 years or so, i and others have written about that city overall, he said kind of pretty equal split and you really seen in most major metro areas, the core city being taken by the left side of the political machine the kind of is that particular stage and yet some cities are self-aware the progressives have not had the same problems like san francisco or the forefront where the mindset you are describing seems to in some ways be organized to create an incentive for the politician talk on rosetta cities, from the city and yet their experience with the homelessness is creating a bike but if you do not see in san francisco predict your friendly. always have been on the past few

years and this problem has gotten worse. but as the incident is the political press therapy they don't have beginning to think of phone people demanding other actual real solutions to this problem. >> quick question and i think in the short version is r that is really about culture more than it is about particular institutions although imitate this way, so my sister my whole family is very productive and my sisters very productive and cheap lives and your boston and has this housing including for people who are doing eligible are dual diagnosed with drug addiction and mental illness and she's objecting strongly to the subtitle ofle the book and she likes the book and she read the book and she said and persuaded this is in an addiction problem not housing a property problem by the progressives in boston do not behave like the progressives

in san francisco and she's mostly right although, that an open drug scene has emerged for the last two months in boston and i'm not familiar that much with the discussed but in a place that is massachusetts so is in boston but an open drug scene. what is so interesting is that when you readwh the boston globs coverage of an open drug scene, he describes it as an open drug scene. so the opioid homeless crisis but he describes what is occurring there is fundamentally place where people buy and sell and use drugs and the intent is to service their addictions. in san francisco, we have euphemisms. there's is coverage was homeless encampments which is makes it sounds like everybody's coming out and helping each other as opposed to places thatt are real terrible abuse and victimization

predict so it's a difference, things cultural, one of the things that when is would interview people they would say, is the wild west out here and would roll my eyes and say come on, that is just silly a wild west and then i was like well know, it is really the wild west. the culture o wild west in san francisco with leslie to shut down the of the indians chinese immigrants created in the 19th century. and more bars per capita in churches. there's definitely a corrupt apparatus in san francisco, the most dramatic instances that taxpayer money goes to subsidized housing for addicts and homeless people mentally oh and the people who run those programs did the people say in this apartment go and vote for the candidates that they want

the nature and run and maintain their funding structure. there's clearly that but i pushed back against idea that this is reduced to money because in any situation including ones that i admire like in amsterdam, so the mono ruling is a gold standard of how you deal with theel addiction and mental illness, the duke big contracts for the salvation army so i do think it is an ideological problem but i think often going to denver, and paid a lot of attention to philadelphia words of regret open drug scene and austin is interesting because i look at austin is a model for what we should be doing because i do know there very progressive mayor and council basically allowed the public campaign, there's a backlashlo of voters cast a ballot 6040 but it took the governor and legislature

passing legislation to ban the public campaign to really makeaa change to things. so are the reason i wanted to do "san fran sicko", i t think that the problem for conservatives or the center-right or even what we would call moderate democrats, in the language of the thinking for the proposals we had to deal with this problem. so the progressives here, they think with the conservators are saying that we just want to pluck up all the attics and put them in jail as opposed think about no, this is obviously an addiction problem in our proposal is something called cal psych is a neoliberal government program to probably more in the left and when you say we need to have cal psych delta mentally ill and the addicts, and change the think of the liberals think about it so for me, that it was one the things that i wanted to

offer and "san fran sicko" to both the moderates on the left and the right that we do need to offer. >> and i know to get into these issues of addiction and was a best interventions. but before we doha that, since a lot of people here today are watching may not know the distinction from housing front predict where cities differ from each other and whether sort of housing solution is, housing first and horrible housing and shelter in all of that and can you play out sort of the competing ideologies when it comes to housing because a lot of people are walking on street and see a lot of homeless people are first impression is they should not be here, they should be somewhere else. >> me start by saying what i think that we should do which is what the dutch do in amsterdam whichen is that they have sufficient shelter for everybody that means is, they built them for everybody which means that they have empty bags and if i

shot of we found a homeless man kind of sleeping on the park bench and he said that you can't sleep here, maybe felt about feel me take you there. and he did let the guy sleep there that night in the snow come back tomorrow and then you the shutters everybody has be sheltered, close a shelter firster policy near saying that you need to be in chiller because is not safe feon the streets in the basic of it. then you would get some evaluations attorney to medical care, including psychiatric care in his treatment first and then housing something hard. a lot of people with her own room in their own apartment in own studio apartment, that's what everybody wants, who doesn't want a studio apartment in amsterdam, i certainly do. but you have to earn it so i

sought renée, a character in the book, dead social worker basically arguing with people, like name is abel my own room and he was a you can have your own room which are not taking your bed. i can have your own room but you're not showing up for your job that we arranged for you you need to show up for your job was hard printed that is the right way to do it will be due in california is been deprived of e funding for the shelters because that of the utopian idea that everybody deserves their own house of their own apartment and this is actually federal policy quality housing first policy. malcolm gladwell did a disservice may 2000, he wrote an article for the new yorker advocating how and another working for george w. bush advocated this and david from

recently i found the advocating for housing first so it became a mean it's just really soliciting idea that you need housing to overcoming your illness in the a is a unique shelter for that but housing should be hard to because expressing is a reward for making progress in your personal plan. >> i certainly see the wisdom of that. shelters have to be so much better than they are obviously i've seen a billion patients sleep outside. current stuff is stolen and u.s. your subtitle, why progressive and i have your list. wondering that and then you can fill in the seventh grade you've

touched on some of them but i think this is organized and semi, to block new housing construction and suburbs and divert homeless funding to the permanent and to defend the rights of people characterized as victims to camp on sidewalks and parks and so on. they intimidate experts and policymakers by attacking them as being motivated by hatred of the poor, people of color in the sixth and causing violence against him anden that is really powerful and if you want inside of the mentality of advocate class when it comes to this, i think your book is incredibly illuminating on that and with a lot of these people what they're doinge well, you really want hp and i personally think they're quite misguided having pork with

some people with addiction problems for a long time. unless you're incredibly motivated and so many people so many people it is available normalize, probably not going to stop taking drugs so the situations where there's free access in some ways animal seems encouraged, not just the old meeting people where they are, i'm synthetic to that, you don't want to come in with no jackboots in the coercive mindset that we want to invite people to get hair care and to trust you but how does a space lawn and sometimes i think my way too long an energy as well. they reduce penalties for shoplifting and here we have five walgreens being shut down.

this is about mentally ill specifically. fossilization for the mentally ill. and what i was just saying about the what i call reduction which estate we will be to where you are and effectively leave you there as opposed to a harm reduction to be long some people really do want to move along. there's no left, number seven is leadership, about why about how the leadership is paralyzed. >> so there is a bonus on this

of the reason which is because moderns in the concerned group and concerns left them, that's a punch punch line of book and then expand what conservatives have failed in so many cities that are documented. the short answer is just that cities have not been the high priority for republicans and conservatives that they need to be an a.e.i. and other center-right is in great work in fact i in addition to sally also quote chris famous for legal race theory nobody was actually terrific journalist on open drug cities c and untreated drug - bt when i had to attempt to recall governor gavin newsom, a former

democrat but now i'm an independent but i endorsed former mayor of san diego and it can paid with him for a bit braided and we were in los angeles in front of an open drug scene and we give a very intelligent thought well-informed and presentation of the reporter but after we were done the reporters all quit and said what are you saying to me just one arrest all of these people and arrest the homeless, is that what you want. very little media company bututs not about i don't think it's unusual to have outside questions a lot of cities obviously is a good person i endorsed him but he did not have good answer to that question. at a practical level, i'm proposing that the moderate democrats were in the center-right in california and nationally proposed universal psychiatric care that is not something that has been

traditionally high republican priority and i think that most of of us in the left have heard republicans he reasons why we cannot have universal healthcare what we should not have it braided i don't think it's going to work anymore by all means working on this issue and i don't think we necessarily need to have committed to it i think we do think that is certainly universal psychiatric care is a fundamental thing to solving this problem would in a more philosophical level, one of the inspirations from this book is the great late psychiatrist, victor frankel, famous because he wrote really foundational self-help book about how he survived the holocaust and how he survived the concentration camps by having a positive mentality. and wanted to know why coming very popular in the left out don't understand why the left has accepted him for their personal behavior but rejected

it and is blaming the victims in politics not the accusation that left makes. inis this breaking news question of technology with the thing that i discovered it with victor frankel, as he loved america any of the freedoms that he had here but he said that you know, freedom is not enough and you also need responsibility and even proposed that he said you know you've gotf the statute of liberty in the east coast and he proposed we build a statute of responsibility on the west coast i thought that was quite a lovely public. these two values and certainly the right is talked a lot about responsibility and i think really elevating those two things because freedom i think we as americans, intended credit say what are we about as a country where about freedom but i'm arguing to go deeper and ultimately to be about responsibility. >> i'm curious to know kind of how the different issues that

cities are facing a sort of a hierarchy, which ones are driving people out of them more and i think that san francisco is interesting case because the power of that economy there is prompted to defy gravity even when people living part in california over the last ten years this pandemic, place of work and residence really showed how much people want to say think a lot of people leaving and in some ways and has had a statement of people's confidence in the government there. is there something that can turn the tide, we cannot really talk about affordability when people talk about san francisco read and think it race like winners of the first out of 1304 metro areas in the housing affordability and that we have a tech worker and looks at median income but looksou at sort of te average worker's income and how much homemaking by entering to

get 97 out of 100 and that in this well-known get there seem to be some progress on this discussion about changing the way we regulate had to make more of it available with or not it brings the cost down is another thing. do you think there is hope for the city in one of these large issues like san francisco, even if they don't quite figure out the homelessness problem the issues behind that but they saw these big things that seem to matter to people, with that kind of restore the confidence to think in the political class or do you have to make a priority to them all at once. it seemed like in the '90s should make a lot of progress although once predict. >> phibro questions about whether san francisco can deal with the drugs seem to recall homelessness. it is just such a liberal city and progressive city and the machineries that have allowed

for progressive to same powered for the homeless problem to get worse, it's really strong and powerful pretty things like 80 or 90 percent of the votersvo voted against recall of the governor's was very liberal andt a lot more hope for california, southern california has always been more conservative northern california. the central valley is very conservative as much is midwestern the south and then you have more available also problem that needs statewide solution because one of the words we use to use to describe what we now call homeless, was transient. the highly transient ablation, it's very difficult population to treat in a way so i do pretty think it will be difficult, there has been some movement to get more housing pretty we just legalized splitting a lot and putting two

houses although, i do not think that it will significantly reduce the housing prices i think they will remain extremely high and i think that the dirty little secret is that 65 percent of california voters are homeowners anybody for its own home in california, for longer than a year, has made a ridiculous amount of money on her home, nothing, defined people whose homes have increased in value three or fourfold or overwritten or 20. our house has more than doubled in less thann ten years. and so it makes you more conservative in terms of voting for a different candidates and you wouldn't want anything tofe get in the way of that. and the other thing that is depressing is one of the responses that i get from people working on this book is that people go, that is why you don't go downtown. o yeah, those are like our fellow citizens out

there. their credit important. i'm discouraged about that part of it but i will say that in the basic addendum that we are proposing which is shelter first, housing earned, calcite, is more than 80 percent supported when the findings was should people public defecation or drug use, be given the choice between jail or drug treatment, had stronger support from democrats and republicans surprised me because of that is a liberal framing of it but the hypothesis is from interviewing people that republicans in california are justca like why would you even offer the drug treatment. the just be arrested so i think there's a a public at and significantly moreo conservatie it. then either san francisco or i think one might be led to believe from the news media over the social media.

>> all make a comment then we can open this up for folks i really like your cal psych and the whole idea that has to be stay because of you just do one county, people move to the next. plus there's no accountability for a lot of these nonprofits that provide the services pretty it seems to me that you have constantly kind of hanging over your head is the horrible images of psych institutions. this i make it the night and when we had the real aside the movement back in the - the pastoral care back in the 18 hundreds, maybe on working farms and is a beautiful environment there were no medications and now, the synergy of those could be amazing. the people remember or think of

shelters as what i described, they were lucky ify they don't get physically attacked her meds are stolen pretty kind of rehabilitating the image ease predict that is a burden you have read. >> i would agree and i would add that i described the history of how badly we have dealt with particular people with schizophrenia and bipolar and before dorothy created the mental hospital in the 19 century people were being chained in the basement and on farms is killed read some of the most difficult for people to deal with and be jealous. "san fran sicko", debate among my colleagues and i in a very collective effort and we tell a story where renée dutch character describes being asked

to take care m of a man with schizophrenia, as a man as a friend of the family predict and he said sometimes, to think you're not supposed tohi do prey and he said that i grabbed him a couple of times and i said you gotta come with me and were going to go to a hospital. i didn't know what the or else would be the guy would be really intimidated and he tells a story and the guy, kind of basically muscles this guide to getting the treatment he needs another schismatic last serious schizophrenia has his own apartment and a car in a job. jand renée said i just talked o him earlier this weekend i check in on him every week and i say are you doing any schism find their people stereo me through my window and he said i told him to go shut your curtains and then he said okay now it's okay. and when he told that story, missing today because we are like the makes renée look kind

of like were suggesting should be broken several should be broken predict what yes true but contracted that to the fact that we have more mentally ill people in the jail than any other institution in the united states and the captain plexiglass jail cells in the plexiglas in the can hose them down because bad things happen and there we need to grow up a little bit. as a society because what happened is the hospital were short staffed during world war ii and then magazine and others took photos that looks really bad and many other reformers wanted to improve the conditions of the hospital and said, in a black-and-white way that americans need to see sometimes the moralized cultures because we have to shut these hospitals down in the result as many of those people ended up homeless on the streets or in jails and prisons.

so part of what i wanted "san fran sicko" to do is to say the scorpion this is really d difficult for people to deal with. and this will result in greater humanity later on. >> you mentioned it, i think there's kind of his alliance between antigovernment conservatives who do not like bureaucracy and case management and hassle. and some libertarians in there and now the left does not like that but have you responded to someone and says, will you're just bringing it back and avoid the hassle these people are you being materialistic and so how have you dealt with that challenge.e. >> yes they do say that and by the way, independence i'm a

mentioned earlier that we realized that we needed w a new institution in california is a one question is call it and we decided to call it cal psych rather than say, cal treatment even though cal psych would ideally be treating people with like 25 -year-old guy with a fair one problem with no serious mental illness. the kind of anxiety and depression that i suffer from like so many that can be manageable that using heavy drugs. we decided calcite because we collect we we can expand people this is about mental illness, we find many more liberals cadets we find that that if you were to rank from easiest to access to hardest to acceptt of my agenda, i would probably go involuntary treatment with people with

schizophrenia as a easiest to accept interesting heroin addicts as freezing heroin is much lower than that predict funding the police turns out to be very popular as well and didn't mention it that we have three chapters we spoke about homicide, the emperor of all crimes. i came out of it as a liberal, just really pro police and the evidence for policing is outstandingvi like in terms of reducing all crimes, and homicide on a big believer in the ferguson effectively think it's absolutely real. i think there's a least 30 percent of the progressives are corp. that will never be with us and that will have any objections read really radical anti- psychiatry movement genuinely believe that psychiatric hospitals were worse than jailer store presence.

prisons. so the short answer is for the truly open-minded folks, start with psychiatry and then the hard-core, margin. >> in chicago, situation is different than in san francisco with homicide and recently the wesley under wealthy his mother said or has announced it is just a question of time before they move out of chicago because of the crime problem and you wonder, the cities maybe not as wealthy or as strong as san francisco, how long does it take for them to t become a sale cit, that's where these things seem to be going get graded, question, so one of t the freeds we still have this country, is

the ability to move out which is part of what is behind of conservative observation of the situation also to compare one place to another. this respect to the amsterdam bottle, which is an interesting a part of this talk, anyplace in the u.s. adopting that model, are they doing it in florida. i look forward r to eventually that you've got to get the message will come up and some people are doing it right, much better results versus others doing it wrong. >> so the short answer is that miami is doing a better new york is doing it better and it we decided to use the amsterdam in part because we thought it was an easier pill to swallow the new york pretty good friend san francisco who define themselves in opposition to the art. we s are like in san francisco because it's not like new york

and it is prejudice but is not just prejudiced in the sense that one of the things of them about san francisco is that when you meet people, nothing of ever had anybody to be area asked me where i went to school. when i lived in washington dc i go to parties, they were like what did you to college nice media predict toys like is that how i'm going to be rank on the totem pole. and callum in california, we like that that is not the thing there's much greater value on entrepreneurialism andnd innovation and were snobs in our own way rated so because it because it was hard enough and iit is liberal by san francisco bay area. but everybody does a better job than the progressive cities on the west coast. miami has done a good job we describe what is down there which is much more shelter first treatment first policy in new york sheltered before the

pandemic andnd something like 99 percent of his homeless and we shall are about one third in california and one of the most disturbing findings of our research is that it was homeless advocates in california who have deprived it funding to build sufficient shelter for the homeless and also fought against the requirements to limit shelter and that is just insane and one of the things i'm most proud of in this book because i was able to talk to basically everybody wanted to talk to including the radical left in the productive left, i did find it and even some of the most radical left advocates for the homeless, all of them but they would say that we do need to actually build shelters and get people into the shoulders because it's gotten so out of control. but as always the same things it works, there's no variations, there are somee differences between lisbon's approach and

amsterdam, lipton doing interventions with attics but in every one of these five major cities, new york miami to make sure they have sufficient so under shelter enforce laws including against public defecation and drug use in the made drug treatment an alternative to incarceration rather than completely optional which is what we've done in california. >> wrinkle in the crime question, we justhe put out a survey center here at the does large national surveys, and just yesterday we released a report will be asked people who question and like where would you live if you didn't live are. you and residents in big cities majority of them want to leave and they waste and have like inp this i did a lot of people want to live in the big cities, most would like to live in a smaller city or suburban or small town. the numbers are the same as they

work one month after 911 the essence question like 80 percent of the people in the big cities ashley say that would be the top choice which is down considered durable about from a few years ago so there's something now. not just in san francisco but elsewhere that people feel there is a crisis here remember 911 to be in a big city, you felt like you got a target on your back and we ask people what is the number one issue that your concern about in your local community and overwhelming private the second issue is poverty and homelessness in crime even in suburbs is a concern now so was god in the water but it t seems to be the o issues are huge drivers why people are note so enamored of the large cities. i love living in big cities. >> thank you so much, this is been a really great and fascinating talk.

the question on the subject of commitment institutionalization i would also love to hear the opinion on the psychiatrist on this, i know the history of americans, mental health treatment, there was a bit in effect with the introduction of the first introduction of the antipsychotic medicines to use that as an alternative to institutions i think that had bought a negative effect on the long-term experimental care with the illnesses and also there were legal commitments and guidelines is a lot harder for somebody to meet involuntarily committed that i was greeted so have you overcome these sources both legal and practical issues.

that they would rather subscribe medicines or who do not want to go through the hassle of committing or obstacles to doing that. and also have you achieve the right balance of like the long-term institutionalut care d pharmaceutical treatment. >> would you like to go for some that.y? actually but i thought i would ask about his general resistance to a commitment. every state has a different threshold although they'll agree there's a commonality with imminent harm to self or others and most at just below and the disability statue but not all and all that means is that if you just listening and your freezing in the park, that when

i guess that would say that if the rest of your vision was built and inds other words, thee was a good basic mental health infrastructure then so many people would be contained it with enhanced by the time we need to use this measure that you would be dealing with the most severe individuals that really wouldn't be that much of a question that we have to intervene and when somebody is stable you can use other kinds of you know, especially if they have committed a crime or utsomething called assistant outpatient treatment which is in your book which is to say that okay, we want to institute a shipment of institutionalist people in the least restrictive is setting as much as possible and that is been taken a plan proportion meaning that we should never contain folks. but even so, even if we agree

that containment is needed for a time of stabilization, then there's that phase where the money is not, they're in the community but, there's still not taking her meds responsibly regularly as they can. and then there is a civil is a criminal or civil, civil right but there is a criminal i think there's a criminal counterpart to admit in any case, basically that's continuing supervision. >> i agree enemy part of the vision of cal psych is of treatments need to be better standardized and follow better practices because there is so much inconsistency only not using conservatorship which is what we call the guardianship in california nearly as much as we thought to be doing and if just the kind of irrational

libertarianism, like one flew over the cuckoo's nest in the outpatient treatment which is caving out of new york where laura, she was pushing front of the subway car by the mental taking his meds and then we have kinlaw which is very similar situation california so we should be using a lot more, she's been opposed by policy makers and engaged in thing unconscionable fear mongering really driven by a belief that mental illness does not exist. i think there's bad ideas that underlie this and i will say that it's funny that on the one hand that i've seen this whole pop-culture reaction against conservatorship for britney spears, you might've seen and everybody's like free brittany and whatever i'm always like, we don't know what is going on in the situation like, the picture that people have is that her father was manipulating her money but we have no idea what

kind of behaviors or what happened to her but i think that for homeless folks, there's much more willingness use this and outpatient treatment and what is the medical doctors that is a character in the book, living on skidrow and she's been getting ready content really good results from injectable psychotics. and just to reinforce what sally was saying, there's a lot of people that you couldn't get into the right care and treatment if you had a proper statewide system before you needed to actually start arresting anybody been supported by, now can drug scene, prevent people from using drugs in public and does become easier to get the hard or an rep: surround themselves especially push the big shopping carts onn the greatest stress model on the situations.

>> thank you this is a great book and aan great conversation and obeying lineup and if you'd known or not will sometimes many folks maybe they tookma it alrey braided and there's nothing if there is not, i know that we arrange to send one to you so you will get one might not be signed. >> book tv, every sunday on "c-span2", feature leading others discussing their latest nonfiction books, at 2:00 p.m. eastern, mystery writer, international thriller, state affair, 6:30 p.m. university of illinois journalism professor, offers her thoughts on the journalism, news for the rich white and blue and outplacement power distort american

journalism and a 7:30 p.m. on about books, former new york democratic, thoughts on opening in a bookstore plus bestseller list, new releases and enemies from the publishing world, and at 10:00 p.m. on afterwards, in the latest book, inside corporate america social justice stamp, the argue the corporate america only to increase profits and is interviewed by harvard university economic professor and former chair for present counsel of economic advisors during the george w. bush administration, watch tv every sunday on "c-span2" and find a full schedule or program guide or watch online, anytime at booktv.org. >> during a recent virtual event hosted by magic city books in tulsa, oklahoma, headhunting panic magazine reflected on the past and future what he calls

trumps america pretty. >> it really goes back to the founding of the country any of the country where you say all created equal but you sever a tremendous amount of people from the entry to that idea and so the black people into the enslaved and really quite 19 and so, to justify that you have to form reasoning for why that these blessings that you say are the right of all humanity and white and good segment of humanity is not entitled to them. this is a battle we have been fighting as a country since the founding pretty entering reconstruction and only five during civil rights movement and every year in between and if you

understand that america experiment with democracy only really started on it in 1965 and then it becomes much more understandable that it is as vulnerable as it is read this kind of ideology which after all, find predates this. and basically what we have a situation where the structure versus the party told because of the ideals of the geographic distribution of the people. and so the party that represents that group, it becomes more convenient and urgent for them to persuade them that they are sitting on the verge in their way of life is about to be destroyed and you can see this with donald trump where he says

that on the one who will protect you from everything. i'm going to protect you from what the liberals are going to do when the gain power. and that is how you in that justifying things like disenfranchising and constituencies and the overturn election and is all tied to this idea that there is a legitimate group in america that is legitimate rise to permanent political and cultural - in the united states and anything less that is a threat to the country as it is meant to be an trump did not invent that he did not come up with it and you can watch the rest of this discussion on our website, booktv.org is a search box at the top of the page to look for atoms with the of his book, the cruelty is the point.

♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ , ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ good evening virtual audience you forome and thank joining us tonight braided on behalf of harbor bookstore, very pleased to introduce this event with sheryll cashin and her new book "white space, black hood" and opportunity and segregation in the 80s and inequality enjoying the conversation at his megan. and thank you for joining us tonight, the original event like tonight harbor bookstore continues bring others inhe