discusses the investigation by congress conducted during his time by the house judiciary and oversight committee. in reflex and the term presidency. about books our program that reports on the publishing industry we review some of the notable books that have been published this past year. you can find a full schedule programs airing today under program guide or by visiting booktv.org. starting out political analyst kirsten powers provides her thoughts on how to navigate divisions in our culture without sympathizing beliefs well-being. >> hello everyone my name is britney i am the director of events at politics and prose bookstore in washington, d.c., i would like to welcome you wanted today's virtual event. before we begin to have a couple of technical details to go over with you. first i'll be dropping in the chat with a copy of powers new book saving grace from politics and prose website. we serve anywhere in the united states and if you live in the

d.c. area you can select store pickup from many of our three-story locations around d.c. also if you have a question from the author please submit it in the q&a space and if you're on a laptop you can hover over the bottom screen and you should see the cubit i and we will get to those in the latter portion of the program. you can submit it between now and the end of the event go ahead and pop is in there throughout. now onto tonight's program. kirsten powers and new york times best-selling author columnist and senior political analyst for cnn, she appears regularly on anderson cooper 360, cnn tonight with don lemon and jake tapper. her book saving grace speaks truth, stay centered and people who drive you nuts authors of past with a toxic division in our culture without compromising our conditions and emotional

well-being. in the book she described her own experience to the trump era and interviews with experts in research on what leads people to actually change their minds. powers is in conversation with eugene scott a national political reporter on the washington post breaking news team. he previously wrote about identity politics and was host of the podcast available exclusively on amazon music. scott was recently a fellow at the georgetown university institute of politics and prior to joining the washington post he was a washington correspondent at siena politics. please help me welcome kirsten and eugene. the screen is yours. >> thank you, it is so good to see you kirsten. >> i am so happy you are doing this with me. >> i feel like the last time i saw you --

>> it is so good to know that the pandemic housetop

hasn't stopped people from writing things that matter and discussing these issues that are affecting so many of us and maybe especially during this time. >> definitely turned into 2010 in my lifetime than the time as bad as it would get in it was interesting to look back now, as i write this book is as relevant things are probably going to get better and then who could have seen what was coming there was no way so i was writing this book to all of that and i came out on the other end i think this is actually a super relevant topic. >> absolutely of nothing where i think people felt the same way you did about this is bad and this is our new normal didn't know how to move to that to more hopeful and something that led them less and optimistic and i think your book does a lot of.

>> i personally know nothing about grades a lot in regular talk about that in terms of your personal experiences in mind as well. the process about this it literally changes nothing it makes matters worse. >> exactly, it sounds obvious only say it but when in the midst of it the way that i think everybody was, for us it's a little different because were living in it and professionally as well. when you live in a day by day you're forced to consume all the information and forced to interact with me and having to go into tv and having these conversations on what is happening i don't understand this. this was anxious when i say anxious i don't mean i was worrying and talking clinical anxiety. debilitating, anxiety and fibromyalgia, my whole body was exhorting all of this and i

don't know how to discharge it. >> we had this moment in the end of 2018, this is not sustainable i cannot keep doing this, i started hearing from people around me saying the same thing. i cannot do this anymore but i don't know what else to do and then i had a moment i had a moment where i realized a lot of the things i was thinking in the things i was saying or doing were not aligned with who i believe that i was and what i said i believed. i started to think that i'm a christian and i would think i'm supposed to love my neighbor and my enemies, something i believed in and i had a realization that i need to figure out how to get

aligned and i had an intuition to come up with an idea of grace, it was just an intuition that it was grace i didn't have enough grace in my life and i didn't see much grace in our culture. i ended up writing this column for usa today and i did a twitter and i said i feel like i'm contributing to the toxicity that's happening in this culture and something has to shift and i think that we need grace. seeing what i'm seeing now i did not understand what i was saying. i think i'm thinking of it in a magical grace way like you're gonna sprinkle grace on and everything's going to be okay but when i sat down and decided to write this book and really take a turn in my life i had to figure out i'm here, how do we

get to hear. i'm here and i don't how to get grace for the people but i don't have grace for myself, how do we get to hear where i practice grace. this book is really that story, the story of me figuring that out of turning into a practice, something like people have a yoga practice, i have agrees practice. >> i would argue that many of them think i know what that is, i'm gracious i don't need to study grace anymore. another people think that they've arrived with a serve as a new idea but you are coming

back to the fundamental idea that you were familiar with and it seems like i haven't grasped this the way like i thought i did. >> that's exactly right if you thought i understood grace i would've said yes. i should be clear i wrote the book in a way i use christian. and because i think it's great. i and is different than with the way we think about ourselves so we live in a society where everybody needs to earn everything. a runabout getaway and i hope and i heard from other people that is very accessible to people of any faith or no faith at all. it is not necessary for anybody to believe in christianity or anything like that in order to gain something from this book.

when i started to really break that down, what does that mean i really think a lot of us think that grace means whether christian or not they think it means letting people do what they want and not held accountable. even when we have a doormat. i really dove into and i started to think about what is it mean, christians often only think about grace as grace comes from god to us and that's it, that's the end of it. so what does it mean if i was to give unmerited favor to another person, that would mean that they cannot earn my grace, i don't have to like them but i could be doing something that i disapprove of but i still see the divine spark and if you're not a believer in the humidity

in them, that exist to anything they've done, they don't have to do anything to earn that. it is, we just get that just for existing about them but something that you really don't like about them i definitely with a group of people into one thing grace can be a triggering word, a lot of people have been recognized in weaponizing and marginalizing people, it's been weaponize and whether it's been against women

, there are groups of people who have been told you

need to show grace to the people who are mistreating you and aren't listening to you and all these other things, that is not what that means. people understandably sometimes will say i need accountability right now and accountability is grace because when you think about me too, these men who went down spectacularly and hearing their curvy eggs if they would hold them accountable over a more minor thing that they did and did one time that would've been grace, they actually would've learned something that this is not okay, we don't do this we don't treat other people like this. instead there was never any accountability and they went on its way and they went on a spectacular ball of fire so it is not saying that people are not accountable, it's more about how you hold them accountable you hold them accountable in humanity or in a way that looks like annihilation where people will do something wrong and you say whatever it is and they see stephen matter. there is ways when you use grace as a practice that can help us have that kind of accountability, but also protect other people's humidities in her own humanities. >> there's a lot there i have so many questions to the point that you made. i want to go back to how difficult 2018 was for you at the end that made you think about writing this book. i was kinda surprised that you said

2018 opposed to 2016 because as you are very vocal and at the end of 2018 i think is when a lot of people begin to feel some hope again after the 2018 as you discussed a woman in lgbtq people and other underrepresented groups in washington and state capitals finally being able to push back on much of what they found troublesome in the past two years. you still found herself at the end of 2018 being discouraged, is that what you were saying? >> i was coming off kavanaugh hearings. i think it was also a period of demonizing the caravans that were coming in to the country and starting with 2016, i think 2016 was a shock to everybody so

i'm having a shock to my system but is going to stabilize at some point. it wasn't stabilizing it was getting worse, i was continuing, whatever was happening i was having to have these conversations and then also i used to attend evangelical churches i have a friend from evangelical and helping everybody presses all the things that were happening my parents were there printed the divisiveness and there was a lot going on, i think it was wearing me down, what i found out when i dove into this. i'd a lot of unresolved trauma and it made it very difficult for me too have grace for other people in a whole chapter in my book how trauma affects us and most of us have trauma and when people respond to trauma differently. in its very impact who is the bad guy in the good guy and not able to see nuances and catastrophize and not that they weren't but maybe somebody else would. i think what was happening to me was partly what was happening in the world i was being uniquely triggered and something that was going to come in and make me say this is okay because i felt like things have gone so of course, i guess i couldn't say a kind of imagine it was going to get

worse there was part of me that thought. >> it just felt very hopeless to me, i felt very hopeless. >> i think a lot of people felt that way quite frankly there has been so much that is happened, i forgot that was a period where the caravan was dominating. >> i started in 2018 writing about identity politics in teaching about it and i didn't

realize until i got into therapy the i was depressed and i didn't know what depression really was and how to respond i know you can relate you see your friends, i need a break from social media, what is not like every single day and you have to figure out a way to respond in a way that doesn't reflect the nosedive that is happening in you joining people in the gutter of it all. >> i think that was where i did decide and it was a matter of survival, the first thing i did i got off of social media. >> a twitter break. >> i said i tried cutting back and i was doing very well been in somebody would tell me something i would go in and next thing you know three hours later and then mike umi mi 14, i don't understand so i finally said

this is the last time this is going to happen, this will not happen again. i had my fiancé change my twitter passport and under no circumstances do not get this to me. and i was a facebook person and i stayed for a month that i tell you within a couple days i felt like a different person. >> after a month i went back on and i was like this is just not a healthy good place for me so i don't spend a lot of time there but when i do there's boundaries and rules of i'm not can argue with people and try to convince people of something because nobody that's not what people doing twitter might be able to find out what's happening in the world but one of the chapters are trackable is everybody has to do their own assessment of what they can tolerate how much

we can taken we should all have a goal been informed. the anything past that, when you're starting to feel activation in the judgment in the anti-grace has been untangled. greece has a space and it says that chores. i recognize it and i can do something about it and then maybe i'll write a column about it or integrated into my commentary on tv and see something that is happening on a mind to an organization. into, this behavior are one of volunteer and amplify voices that are calling attention that is non-toxic. there are plenty of people that

want to be toxic. treating recognizing social media is not all good and not all bad. it can be incredibly toxic and revolutionary that is change the rules. we decide to figure out, how much can be taken before we still a lot of people. as the reading i was sitting on twitter of other people in the system will be so jacked up combined to get us on a wedge and combined to make and listening to the monster. for me i have to be very careful

about what i let into my body. >> for me was social media and perspective who just turned on as much. >> i remember when i was at cnn with you in the breaking news i worked the earlier shift, the former president started tweeting at five so i had no clue what it was like to not be on social media but there are people who do and when i would be outraged and frustrated like you i would be telling people, they did not understand. this person said that involve au realize how out of control near usage of the platform is new

perspective of a payment. >> after i'd off of it for a while i was having brunch and she sits down and she said what's going on and she said we don't know this is happening on twitter that the president was saying and telling me this crazy story and she looked at me and i said i'm so glad i have anointed with your talking about. this is what i think greece is a great tool in their judging and i taken on the branch. >> are sleeping in their bed with you and to recognizing and saying no, if i see something of

my past unlike no and i'm getting keep moving to do the things that i think are helpful, doesn't mean there's never anything you should say something about, sometimes there are things. i got back on social media during black lives matter, i got back on when ahmaud arbery was killed. i had been off and i was writing my book in one of my friends texted me and told me what it happened and simply say something so i said you're right i'm going to break this fast that i'm doing and i got back on and i didn't stay on for a while, i think that was a waste of time and amplified and was trying to inform the people and all of those things. is not an all or nothing. but we do have to be thinking if

we want to have grace for other people that may have to be conscious about our weekend sending a lot of information that is getting us amped up about a lot of people. i say a social scientist in the book that calls a lot of the people on social media. people are always concerned about the other people's rhetorical you need to watch out for. >> there actually are people that are intentionally ambiguous and i did curate my feeds, who is going to inform you and who is going to get me amped up market away. >> that is very important. one way social media helped me not engage in all of these

arguments that we can find in twitter is my fear i could be arguing passionately. [laughter] >> to think i can be worked up by something not even real. >> that the real thing. >> i am just saying things and getting everybody riled up. >> people are not sincerely expecting their feelings. dealing with my trauma which was huge, absolutely huge and

transformative with trauma informed and recognizing a lot of my behavior was on integrated trauma we need to use boundaries and demonizing and i do think boundaries and active grace were you let people know i used to think boundaries and say it's a way to keep people out and there is a way to let people in unwilling to interact with you but these are the boundaries of how i'm going to interact in a boundary might be you cannot see content and you can't gaslight and those are my boundaries and if you want to be in a relationship or conversation with me you have to honor these. and if you don't, you don't. >> that is a choice that you have made. >> were a boundary around

someone who in the past would've sent me too a spiral for days to say i am a note to that. i'm not giving you any more of my brain space, you don't get to take up my brain space. if i'm going to think about is because i'm thinking of away to combat to see what you did. so i say figure out which are unknow to and what your agastiya. what you're noted as a guess of you what you can be doing or actually be making a difference and not just doing in contempt in getting a migraine and all the other things that come with. >> can you talk about your journey and be more gracious toward yourself. that is something i think, i was reading your book and i've been taking about it a lot in the past . . .

i wasn't even aware of what was happening, how my inner critic was and how mina was to myself. honestly i didn't like myself. i had to talk to trees about it. i'm really mean to myself and really don't like to i am. one of the things i did when i started, what led up to me right in that column right talk about the toxicity, once i got up twitter, i had to reckon with how i've contributed to the public debate. and so i kind of went back

through the last ten, 15 years and started looking at things and i looked at my last book. i write about this in there and i was like i really got some things wrong. sometimes i got substantive wrong and sometimes my tone was unacceptable. my snarkiness and other things, and so i actually started to just feel so much shame, and so i was talking to my friends about and is talking with therapist about it and they were saying the same thing, where's the grades for kirsten? i was like yeah, but i shouldn't have done this. they're like right, but one of the things the quotes that i use to kind of give the people a sense of what grace is is my angela quote about you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time and when you knew better you did better. when my grandpa -- therapist

said she, kirsten was doing the best she could and you judging her from a healthier version of you, you have to have graced her because usually doing the best she could. i was like wow you're right, like because i'd gotten to the point was starting to extend that to other people i would be like that person suing the best they can with the tools they have and is not very good but it doesn't mean they are not accountable for it but i can see that that is the best they can do. i started to be able to have more graced myself and my inner critic is almost nonexistent now. it's just, that can thinking is too discordant with who i am today. i'm just a different person that it was when i started this process, and i think when i i started thinking about it i thought yeah, how would you don't let grace for other people if you could never grace for yourself? because when he went through the process and started reckoning

where i'd gone wrong, i was able to look at another person or done something and say i kind of know what that's like. >> right. >> i know what it's like to really screw up and do something really stupid and not realize you did it. i know what it's like to be acting out the pain, that adult, i'm not even aware that i have. it makes it possible for me to be more empathetic with people and still recognize that sometimes there will be consequences for that behavior, but how do we hold people accountable with humanity, right? that's immoral the question. i point in the book to our criminal justice system is a great example of where people say well, do the crime do the time. it's like yeah, but really they need to go to jail for the rest of their lives? and the need to be in this like

completely inhumane like building and system and the way they are treated? that's not accountability. that's annihilation. >> and that's not justice and i think a lot of people have had to rethink what is a just response to a wrongdoing in ways we previously had not? because there's so many other factors that need to be considered, as you just mentioned. >> yeah, or the way we label people. somebody who is not a crime, they are a criminal. somebody who murder somebody is a murderer and it's like actually people, their lives can be redeemed. these can be opportunities for intervention instead, these are opportunities to really oppress people and to miss treat them and treat them inhumanely and just throw them away. i mean, like they are just disposable, right?

>> and you have a chapter about people being not disposable which i think is an idea that needs to be reinforced. how often do things like this person is dead to me, or i am done with the person, or there's just no grace, no second chance. >> right. or they are trash, like or whatever it is. and i think, look, those are normal feelings to have. i do want to say i'm very pro-feeling. unless think anybody you can't feel certain things. of course we all feel these things. i'm not quite as sam never going to have contempt again but that's unrealistic. what happens now is that i notice it, whereas in the past it just happened. it was like breathing. i didn't even think anything of it. i just thought that's what you do when somebody is a bad person, you have contempt for them. now i notice it and i think it's more about noticing it and more about then what do you do with

that, but recognizing every person has a story, everybody is fighting a battle we don't know about come all these cliché things we hear about are actually true. >> very true, very true. >> and that my guiding principle really is do unto others as you would have done unto you, and so when you want to call somebody out, , when you want to hold somebody accountable ask yourself how would i want to be treated if i messed up like this? >> yeah. >> i want an opportunity to do better. i cite a professor from smith, loretta ross, and she believes in calling in and she said before you call somebody out, take the time to have a conversation with them and let them know that they've done something that's problematic and give them an opportunity to do better, right? but instead a lot of times it becomes this is an opportunity to prove that i'm on the right

side or that i'm doing the right things, or whatever it is. if i i tweeted something i shouldn't have tweeted, what would i'd like to happen? personally i would like someone to reach out to me and say you shouldn't have done that. i have had that happen at a write about in the book. where a black girlfriend called the up and said you know, you wrote something on your blog at adult think, i don't think it's okay and i think you should take it down. i took it down. i heard her. we had a conversation about it. if you had that opportunity and then if the person ignores it, then you may have to escalate it. i also want to say some people listening to this might say you know what, i don't have the energy. i have had these conversations, i'm done explaining to people that's not okay, and he think that's there and if think that's where we also, there's a couple of things i i would say.

when is you could consider going to somebody who is maybe an ally and asking them, say if it's me and her somebody doing something sexist i can maybe go to a male friend and say could talk to the person please ask because i don't have the energy for it. at the same time if you don't have the energy for it and you don't have the energy to do that and then you react in an angry way, i would argue in that case the person who's getting angry and has been pushed to the edge is actually the person who needs the grace period but what we usually is a person who caused the harm needs the grace, right? we usually say why are you canceling the person? show them grace and it's like what about this person over here who is been mistreated? part of a group of people who is been mistreated for generations and has been asking for and demanding to be treated differently, and nobody's listening, right? why do you automatically go to this person needs grace? versus this person over here who by the way has been already

offering tons of grace. >> right. i wanted to circle back to something you said earlier, two points about you doing the best, being the best kirstin euclid avenue in that moment and one has a story that causes them to respond in particular ways and that maybe think about i wrote about her relationship with your mom, extend grace to her and had typical of the process that had been for huge chunks of time in your life. >> yeah. >> i wondered if you found it easier or more difficult to extend grace to someone so close to you compared to a stranger or someone who had been so foundational in shaping our world view as opposed to someone who's been on the obverse side of you for all of their life perhaps? tell us about the process for

you. >> i think that when it involves family members and people who you're really close to, those can be the hardest relationships. i don't think i ever even really try to offer her grace because it did would think about grace that way and kelly wrote this book and so was until i was writing this book that i realized, and some he asked me in an interview they said would you say is the difference between forgiveness and grace is? i said i think the story of my mom is a good example of it because i would've said that i i forgave her, right? so we always had a very, very hard relationship, and we managed to stay in in a relationship but it was always very difficult and i felt sort of robbed, right, like why did i get the mom that everybody else got? and mom who thinks you're the best thing that ever happen d and all the kind of stuff. i i always, so that would have o

be continued forgiveness. it's not like a one-time deal. when i was imported into the book i was sitting on the sofa and thinking about my mother and i thought, all of a sudden i just had this like vision of her being like a young mother. she got pregnant with me and wasn't married. she ended up marrying my father. she came from a catholic family, and then ended up having my brother. and the truth of the matter is, if she would live today she probably never would've gotten married and probably never would've had kids, right? she was are pushed into this very conventional life that she never would've chosen for herself. she was living somebody else's life and by the time she figured that out i think she did figure it out. by the time she figured out she had to my kids and husband. -- she had to my kids. i had so much empathy and compassion for and also knowing that era was like for women and

who she was getting a phd in becoming an archaeologist and moving to alaska and all those things and her parents didn't approve. i had so much empathy and compassion for her. i got to this point where i was like i don't even need to forgive her because she was doing the best she could. like, there's nothing to forgive. it was just a weird paradigm shift for me where with grace you don't actually owe me that because how could you have done any better than what you did? like i 100% believe that she was doing the best she could. i just do. even though it wasn't that great and even she would say that today, you know? but it really took me marinating in grace and this idea and thinking about this and doing all of this work through therapy and i'm meditating and all these other things and really getting grounded that i got to that

place where i had the capacity to kind of have that kind of grace, right, to just say like a say in the book grace is creating space for other people to not be you. rather than me saying look, if i'd been or i would've done this and i would never do that to a child and i would never talk to a child. it's just like well, she's just not me. i'm sure i've done a lot of things that she wouldn't do, and so yeah, it really, a completely transform our relationship. >> osgood ask how did you respond to that gift? >> so i told my therapist about it and she said you should tell her she said i think you should write her a letter and tell her, and so i did. in the letter i said, and i can't remember if i wrote about in the book or not but it never could imagine saying this guy just said i see all the good things that i got from you that

i learned about feminism and social justice and equality and all of these things. my mother was very ahead of her time, and i learn all these things. i said i know our relationship has been very difficult for both of us, and i'm glad we didn't give up on each other. >> yeah. >> and i said and the glad you're my mom. because like i wouldn't be me if you hadn't been my mom. she was, i mean, she was really touched and shocked, you know? like, i mean, she called me. she just said i'm so glad. she's 83 and she said i'm just so glad that we have whatever little time we have left that we can have different kind of relationship. >> that's awesome here that really is. when i was reading the story it was very clear that she should

you very early and in so many ways in terms of worldview and values. i think that sometimes you know, makes it very difficult for some of us to understand why this very influential person is also so difficult in these other ways. i think he said something like there's a difference between that people and bad decisions. i think we really want to make people just bad because of their decisions, but you're write about how it's much more complex than that. >> yeah. it is and also i think what makes a person be a person who maybe isn't a good parent, right, like what happens, what happened to my mother, like what were the, what were her wing dings? i have a little more information about that and used to have and so to understand that, when you

think of it as people doing the best they can, it's just not thinking because, because we often think what i would do, right, and it's like, and so it's like no, it's what they could do, what they have the capacity to do. i don't even really believe in bad people anymore, you know? i believe people do, there are people who do bad things but i don't think the people at their core are necessarily bad. i think everybody has the capacity. one of the theologians i interviewed, will ye -- willie james jennings at yale divinity school, one of the leading theologians on liberation theology and he said that grace is looking at somebody that may not expect that you may not like and you may even hate missing the possibility in them and

seeing the possibility of a relationship or the possibility of what could be right. i think that as much as people, and i had a lot of people push back on this idea, as much as people push back on i think it's a very transcendent, like beautiful idea, and i feel like it is what we kind of, if we're honest with ourselves, urine for, is something that's more meaningful than what we're doing right now. and that a lot of what we're doing we are doing because it makes us feel safe. >> yeah. i mean, we're trying to protect ourselves from people that have caused harm or present as potentially harmful very often. >> yeah. and you feel you know sometimes all to feel connected to other people. i talk about how i engage in a lot of, you know, some of this

looks like, bonding, i traumatize it was then other people were your called common in any intimacy and so it's a fake intimacy. it feels real and so that's will be bond over heating the same people. >> right. a lot of people have these relationships were it's like this is my tribe in my community and we all hate the same people and we we're really tight, as like that's just fraudulent intimacy. that's not real intimacy. there's a lot of things that were confused about i guess i would say, and i have this chapter on trying to unlearn binary thinking and putting things in all or nothing. it's like it doesn't mean you can never talk to somebody about people or treating you or upsetting you. it's like if your whole identity is hating a group of people, which for a lot of americans it

is, you're in kind of dangerous territory, and i go back to like mlk when he said hate is too great a burden to bear. he was saying it's actually is a burden to bear, and you are bearing it, not the other people, right? so i don't want to bear that. i don't want to bear other -- i do want to walk around bearing hatred, right? it's just not the kind of ultimately it is got to point as like who do i want to be? >> yeah. >> what do you want to do here? on this earth, and what it was doing just wasn't it. >> i imagine a big part of that revelation is only snowing so you do not want to be, and he tried to not be that person. i want to get to a couple questions we have, you have answered which is really awesome, but one that i think

people obviously very familiar with your writing and your political commentating would ask is, what is the grace you find yourself able to give donald trump? >> yeah, so i feel like when people bring up donald trump i feel like if you're going to start practicing grace, don't start with donald trump. [laughing] that had a like i'm going to take up running in the first race is going to be the boston marathon, so don't start there. like start with your cousin. i think i would say that on my best day i can look at him and say this is a person who is doing the best he can, but it's not good and it's not okay and its harmful and he should be held accountable for his behavior, and not go down the path of what i used to do which is really heating and filled with contempt.

it's not that icm in some like rosy situation, but i can see just see the humanity in him and see that like obviously something happened to him, but he's a grown up and he's responsible for that. one of my friends who is a pastor and who was just out of his mind after trump became president, you know, he said he was like online acting crazy, just doing all of these things. he realized he was out of control and so it he found a picture of donald trump when he was seven years old and whenever he would do it he would look at him and be like, he's a person, like just to pull them back from that ledge so you go back to heat is too great a burden to bear. is me hating donald trump affecting donald trump? he doesn't care. it's me, it's hurting me.

but i think, for joy for me i don't have to talk about them that much anymore, think about them that much more. that was much harder to deal with when he was the president, right? but i think what most of us are data with, yes even when he was president most of us, most of what people talk to me about our relationships. it's their parents, , it's their coworker, it's their friend. that's really what i think people need to start because that is where most of the people are having the most trouble. don't go immediately to probably the most difficult case i would say. >> no, which brings me to another question. it's november. we're headed into the holidays and one writer has asked you have any recommendations for practicing grace with family members over the holiday season? >> yeah. i mean, i think that just a lot of things we talked about here,

and speed read my book because i have a lot of things in there. i would say because it's coming up so soon the first thing is make a decision that you want to practice grace, right? make a decision on good to try to things differently and when i look at my mom when she sang the things i really upsetting to me and the going to see her as more than things that she is saying,, right? i'm going to see her as the person who wiped away my tears when it was a child, the way to all my games and cheered for me and all these other things. doesn't mean it's okay she is saying these things. then boundaries. really get clear about what your boundaries are. if you don't have the capacity and you know your parents can't have that conversation, had a conversation before you go home and say can we put some boundaries up around one going to talk about when i come home? you know, i do want to talk about politics over

thanksgiving, or i do want to talk about politics over thanksgiving i want to set these boundaries around it. we are going to agree when equity speak to each other with content. we are going to agree that if things get too heated where going to take a break. so there are ways to create boundaries. i have a chapter on embracing healthy conflict, really learn how to have healthy conflict because a lot of us don't know how to do that. how do you talk to a person who thinks different venue without consulting them are making them feel like you're talking down to them? how to become a peacemaker, somebody who comes in and talks about hard things, like has conflict. that's what peacemaking is and the conversation where healthy conflict have occurred, both people walk away and it was a i may not of change my mind but i felt heard, i felt seen and i might've learned something, and then finally i also have in their a lot of social science around how people change their

minds. and so to really familiarize yourself with when you you e dealing with somebody who holds a really problematic view that really does need to be dealt with. there are some things you can agree to disagree and other things in there if you ignored of the people are going to suffer. learn, learn how to have this conversations which you don't have time for. there's a lot of social science around it. amazing what it's not calling people names for yelling at them. there are actual ways to do that. those would be like i think quick things you could do. i would dial down social media if not get off it entirely before you go home because you're going to see something that's going to get you going and then you going to want to go to the person like you and your people are doing, you under people are saying, right? i would stay away from the rhetorical dope peddlers and tried to see the people that you're dealing with as more than just the thing that is making

you angry. >> yeah. you have mentioned before how martin luther king has influenced some of your views, and rené brown and her podcast. one of the viewers once to know are there any other books or leaders that have shaped your views on grace that you can recommend an addition to your book? >> i highly recommend any mlk, like mlk anthology, and read that john lewis, so inspiring to me, especially because he somebody that is contemporary to us until he passed away. you are able to see a person who had literally been through hell who just exuded grace enjoy, and not that i will ever be like him but but i was like wow, the our people who can do this. i also really like someone named tara brock. she's a meditation teacher sort

of in the buddhist strain i would say. rené brown, anything by brendan a brown is really helpful but i would kind of think like who die want to be and who are some the people who model that and then try to read as much as you can about how they're able to do that. because there are models out there of people who have faced down really horrific things and have not become bitter or hateful or any of those things. so yeah, but i would, you know, mlk just all the way. >> yeah, yeah. no, this has been a really awesome discussion. i obviously have more questions but the good thing about you for me and for other people viewing is that you're still accessible

via social media. this is something you're going to be talking about for quite some time because as we know we are heading into midterm season. today is election day, and so we will find ourselves needing very much, so many of the tips you have given us so far. i really want to thank you for writing about this. >> thank you so much for having this conversation with me. it was really meaningful. thank you, everybody who joined us. >> yeah. >> thank you to both of you for this conversation. it's a timing out on with the elections but with the holidays coming up and so i said in the chat that there is a link to purchase a book and makes a great holiday gift maybe for someone who doesn't always treat you with grace, hint hint. so pick that up in the link in the chat and thank you, guys so much again for the stock. >> thank you. >> awesome.

is today publication day? >> it is. >> congrats. such a big day. >> tank is a much. a great way to start at. >> awesome. >> is a look at some of the most notable books of 2021 according to the "washington post." in most of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can find the programs at