>> wow, along with these television companies, , supports c-span2 as a public service. >> next on booktv, cnn senior political analyst kristen powers provides her thoughts on how to navigate divisions in our culture without sacrificing your beliefs or emotional well-being. later on booktv other in the program "after words" congressman jim jordan of ohio discusses the investigations by congress conducted during his time on the house judiciary and oversight committees and reflects on the trump presidency. find more schedule information on your program guide or by visiting booktv.org. starting now, here' cnn's

kristen powers on breaking e political divide. >> hello, everyone. i members brittany kerfoot. on the direct of events at politics and prose bookstore in washington, d.c. and i like to welcome you all to today's virtual event. before we began i had a couple of technical details to go over with you. first i will be dropping a link in the chat where you can purchase a copy of this book "saving grace: speak your truth, stay centered, and learn to coexist with people who drive you nuts." we serve anywhere in the united states and if you live in the d.c. area you can select store from any of our three store locations around d.c. also if you have a question for the author please submit it in the q&a space and if you're on a laptop you can hover over the bottom screen and you should see the q&a. in the latter portion of the program will get to those but whenever you have a question you can submit it anytime between now and the end of the event so go ahead and pop those in their

throughout. okay, now onto tonight program. kristen powers is a nuke times best-selling author, "usa today" columnist and senior political analyst for cnn where she appears israeli on anderson cooper 360, cnn tonight with don glickman and jake tapper. her book "saving grace: speak your truth, stay centered, and learn to coexist with people who drive you nuts" offers a path to toxic division our culture without compromising our conditions and emotional well-being. in the book she use her own experience as journalist during the trump era, interviews with experts and research on what leads people to actually change your mind. powers is in conversation with eugene scott, national political reporter on the "washington post" breaking news team. he'd previously wrote about identity politics and was host

of the podcast available exclusively on amazon music. scott was recently fell at the georgetown university institute of politics, and prior to joining the "washington post" he was a washington correspondent at cnn politics. please help me welcome christine and eugene, and the screen is yours. >> thank you so much. it is so good to see you, kirsten. >> i i know. i'm so happy we are doing this. >> me, too. i thought the last time i saw you -- [inaudible] >> very d.c. it's so good to know that the pandemic has an stop people from running about things that matter come discussing these issues that are just affecting so many of us and maybe especially during this time. >> definitely. it's interesting when i came up this idea for the book was

really sort towards the end of 2018 and i was at the time i thought we are at the worst place we had been comfortably in my lifetime and i think of the time a public thought this is probably as bad as it gets. look back now, even as of writing the book, is this relevant? things are going to probably get better and then of course who could have seen what was coming? there was no way. i was writing this book through all of that and canada came out on the other end and like wow, i think this is actually a super relevant topic. >> actually if nothing more because i think a lot of people felt the same way you did about this is bad and the denied a move from that place is something more hopeful and

something that was relevant really and maybe our commitment letter which i think your book does a lot of. >> that means a lot to me. >> know, i think i've personally thinking about grace a lot and to talk about that in terms of your personal expenses and mine as well. just being down and depressed and fatigue and exhausted about this literally changes nothing if not makes matters worse. >> yes. exactly, yes. to me that was something, it sounds obvious when you say it but when you're in the midst of it the way i think everybody was, for us it's a little different because we are living in it really professionally as well so it's not just everyone is expensive because it's happening in the country but then when you're living in at day by day when you're forced to consume all information, forced

to interact with me i was having having to go on tv and have these conversations and walked away thinking what is happening? like i don't understand this. i was anxious. when i said anxious i don't mean i was worrying a a little bit. i'm talking clinical anxiety, truly debilitating anxiety. i had chronic fatigue. i have fibromyalgia. my whole body was absorbing all of this added in really know how to discharge it. then i had this moment and want to talk about it towards the end of 2018 when i hit that wall and just said this is unsustainable. i just can't keep doing this, it's not possible. i started hearing from around me saying the same thing, like i can't do this anymore but i don't know what else to do. and then i had my kind of aha moment ray had this moment i

realize a lot of the west thinking at a lot of the things i was even saying or doing were not aligned with you i believe that it was and what i said i believed. i started to think especially i'm a christian, and i would think i'm supposed to love my neighbor and let love my en, and i was like, i'm so far away from that i can't even come even pretend that something i believed in. i had this realization that i need to figure out how to get aligned. i had an intuition because people say where did you come up with the idea of grace? was just an intuition and had this intuition that it was a grace, that i didn't have enough grace in my life for other people and it didn't seem much grace in our culture. i ended up writing this column for "usa today" and did a twitter thread where i said i

feel like i'm contributing a lot of the toxicity that's happening in this culture and something has to shift and a think we need grace. now sitting where i'm sitting now, i didn't really even understand what i was saying because i think i was thinking of it in this kind of magical grace way, right, like you're going to sprinkle grace on and it will go away. when i decided to really take a turn in my life i had to figure out i'm here, how do i get to hear? i'm here, i really don't have grace for other people and as a discovery i don't even have grace for myself. how do i get to hear where i can actually practice grace. this book really is that story. it's the story of me figuring that out, turned it into a practice, you know, something that's actually, like people have yoga practice.

i have a grace practice, right? >> that's interesting because grace is a topic that christians are pretty familiar with. i would argue that many of them think, i can know what that is or unfamiliar with it or ungracious, i do need to study grace anymore. not that people think they arrived but they certainly don't view it as a new idea. you were coming back to the fundamental idea that you are familiar with, and it seems like you were, like i really haven't grasped this the way i thought i did. >> exactly. that's exactly right. certainly if you'd asked me if i thought i understood grace i would've said yes. i should be clear, i wrote the book in a way, i used the christian paradigm for grace because i think it's a really great paradigm.

it's very different than the way we normally think about things in our culture in the sense that is unmerited favor, which means you don't earn it. we live in a society where we think everybody needs to earn everything. i wouldn't like that paradigm but about the book in a way that help and i've heard from other people that's very accessible to people of any faith or no faith at all. it's not necessary for anybody to believe in christianity or anything like that in order to gain something from this book. but when i started to really break that down, what does that mean, i realize a lot of us think grace means, whether you're a christian or not, we think it means being nice. we think it means letting people do what they want and not really being held accountable, and even being a doormat. when i really delve into it and i started to think about what does it mean, what would it

mean, also christians, the other thing christians often think about grace as grace comes from god to us and that's it, that's the end of the analysis. so what does it mean if i was to give unmerited favor to another person? that would mean that they can't earn it, they can't earn my grace. i don't have to like them. they could be doing something that i disapprove of but i still see the divine spark in them. i still see god in them. if you're not a believer you just see the humanity in them, and that exist independent of any anything they've done. they do have to do anything to earn that. you just get that just for existing. when you start to see people like that, you start to see them in the fullness and the fullness of the humanity and you don't reduce them down to the worst thing about them, , the thing yu really, really don't like about them which i definitely was

doing. i definitely was turning groups of people into one thing and that was it and it was nothing else and i didn't see individual people. i noticed that this happening with a lot of other people. i also think grace can be a triggering word because a lot of people have, it's been weaponized against a lot of people. it's been weaponized against marginalized people, it's been weaponized whether it's been against black people or whether it's against women, right? there are different groups of people who have been told you just need to show grace to the people who are mistreating you, who are not listening to you and all the other things. that's an abuse of the word. it's not, that's not what that means. people understandably sometimes will say i'm not, i think we need accountability right now. one of my argument is accountability is a grace because when you think about me

to, these men who went down spectacularly, right, down here in the crew is back your summer held accountable over probably a more minor thing that they did and they only did one time, that would've been grace because they would've learned something and he would've learned this is an ok, we don't do this. we don't treat other people like this. instead there's never any accountability and they just went all this way and they just went out any spectacular ball of fire. so it's not saying people are not accountable. it's more about how do we hold them accountable? do we hold them accountable with humanity or the hold people accountable like in a way that looks like annihilation, right, where people do something wrong and we say or the motorway we don't like or whatever it is and they just cease to even matter, right?

there is ways that when you use grace as a practice that can help us have that kind of accountability that we want to see but also kind of attack of the people's community and her own humanity. >> there's a lot there and have so many questions tied to so many of the points you made, but i wanted to go back to just a difficult 2018 was for you at the end there was a major think about writing this book. i was kind of surprised you said 2018 opposed to 2016 because as you are very vocal about, you're a democrat. at the end of 2018 i think is when a lot of people began to feel some hope again after the 2010 midterms, as you discuss multiple times, a record number of women and lgbtq people and other underrepresented groups found themselves in washington and state capitals finally being able to push back on much of

what they found troublesome in the past two years. but you still find yourself at the end of 2018 pretty discouraged. is that what you are saying? >> i was coming off of the cabinet hearings and -- kavanaugh hearings and is under all the time and for me there was also sort of the time of trump demonizing the caravans have coming in to the country and i think it was just, it odyssey started with 2016 but i think 2016 was a shock to everybody system. you kind of think of having a shock to my system that is going to stabilize at some point, right? it wasn't stabilizing. it was getting worse and i was still continuing whatever was happening in the world i was still having to have these conversations. also you reckon with, i used to

attend evangelical churches and so i've attend a friends who are from evangelical families, and just hearing come helping everybody process all the things that were happening. my friends with their parents and the device of this and it was just a lot going on and i think it was just wearing me down. what i found out when i i reay started delving into this though is that i had a lot of unresolved trauma and that made it difficult for me to have grace for other people. i have a whole chapter in my book about how trauma affects us, and most of us have trauma. different people, people respond to trauma differently. the way i responded to my trauma was this kind of, very empathetic you know looking for the monsters of black and white kind of think, who's the bad guy, who is the good guy, not able to really see any nuances

and certain catastrophic sizing things. even more than maybe somebody else would. i think what was happening to me was partly about what is happening in the world but i was being uniquely triggered. there wasn't something that was going to come in and make me say this is okay, because i felt like, i felt like things have gone so off course i guess i honestly even though i i was saying i couldn't have imagined that is going to get worse i guess that was part of me that thought i think we're going in distraction that's not going, like we were in a nosedive and i don't see how this nose gets pulled up. it just felt very hopeless to me. i felt very, very hopeless. >> i think a lot of people felt that way. quite frankly there's been so much that it's happened that i forgot that was the period with a caravans were dominating.

>> right. it's impossible to keep track of all this. >> it really, really is. i started 2018 writing about identity politics in the trump administration in teaching about it at the college level, and they it didn't realize until i got into therapy all the later that i was depressed during this whole time and didn't really know what depression even looked like and how to respond, and i know you can relate to this. you see your friends often say i need a break from social media, and i'm like what is that like? tell me about being able to not speak for a week when your job involves you talking and writing about these every single day. and so you have to figure out ways to respond in a way that doesn't reflect the nosedive that is happening and you joining people in the gutter of it all.

>> yeah. and i think that was where, so it actually did decide and it was a matter really for me as a matter of survival, the first said it was i i got off of social media. >> twitter break. >> i just said i'm not, i tried cutting back and i was mostly doing very well and then, but i would see what would happen, annexing a no like three hours later, you're like who am i? at my 14? i don't understand. i finally just said this is last on this is going to happen. this will not happen again. i had my fiancée change my twitter password and i said under no circumstances can you give this to me. i never was a facebook person, and that even stayed off of instagram. i stayed up for about a month and i can tell you within a couple of days i felt like a different person. and then after a month i went

back on and i just, i was like this is just not a healthy place. it's just not a good place for me. i don't spend a lot of time there but when i do i set boundaries and rules around, like i'm not going to argue with people. unlikely to try to convince people of something because nobody, like i might go -- one of the chapters i talk about is everybody has to do their own sort of assessment of what they can tolerate, like how much you can take in and we should all have the goal of being informed and engaged, but anything past that we don't really need. that moment we start to feel that activation and certain to fuel the judgment and the content and all of the anti-grace stuff is when we're trying to get entangled with these other people. grace is like creating that

space that says that's yours, like i don't have to take that on. i can recognize it and and o something about it, if it's me maybe i'll write a column about it or maybe i will integrate into my commentary on tv. if it's another person maybe they'll say i see something happening very hopeful here, i'm going to give money to an organization to help combat this got a behavior. i'm going to volunteer. i'm going to amplify voices that are helping call attention to this in a way that's not toxic. there are plenty of people on social media who are not being toxic. recognizing that social media is not all good or all bad, so it can be incredibly toxic and it's a a revolutionary tool that is literally change the world. it's both things get we just have to figure out like how much can we take in and him we start spewing it back out at people. i just find i can't take in that

much and have to take it in mostly through reading. i find reading less activating and so then, and then -- but if i were sitting on twitter all day it would be hard for me to offer grace to other people. the whole system would be so jacked up from what's going on, it's designed to get his jacked up on outrage. it's designed to make our brains start demonizing people and start looking for the monster. for me to practice grace i have to be very careful about what i let into my body. >> absolutely. in your mind. i think for me what really helped me put social media in perspective is just getting in meaningful relationships with people who just are not on as much as you and i are. i remember when i was at cnn with you and during breaking news i worked the earlier shift. my shift started at six because

the former president would start tweeting at five and so i had no clue what it was like to not be on social media but there are people who do. when i would be outraged and frustrated like you, i'd be telling people these stories and it just didn't understand. [laughing] i'm like this person said that, blah, blah, blah. you just realize how out of control your usage of this platform is and how your perspective just, was so tainted. >> it's a funny and reminds me of like right after i had been off of it for a while and when my friends who you know actually come i was having brunch with her and she comes in sits there and she's like, the thing that happened on twitter. she starts telling me some crazy story and she had been a look to me and said i am so glad i have

no idea what you're talking about. because again, what a think grace is such a great tool where mica said the men you start judging and having content for these people are not taking them to brunch. they are sleeping in your bed with you. they are living in your head rent-free and it's like versus just recognizing it and being discerning and saying no. that's what i do on twitter i see something that i think -- i'm just like no, no, no. i'm going to keep moving and do the things i think are helpful. again it doesn't mean there's ever anything you should say something that. some times are things you should write on. i got back on social media during likewise matter actual i got back on when ahmed armory was killed.

i had been off, dragging my book and when my friends texted me and said, told what it happened and said please say something. so i was like, you're right, i'm going to break this fast that in doing and it got back on. ice stayed on for a while and i think i was a good use of time. i think i was amplifying things and trying to inform the people who follow me at all those other things. it's not an all or nothing but it is, we do have to be thinking if you want to be able to have grace for other people, then we have to be able, we have to be conscious about are we consuming a lot of information that's getting as an up about other people? eyesight a social scientist in the book that calls a lot of people in social media rhetorical dope peddlers. and people are always concerned about other people's rhetorical dope peddler but he says the

rhetorical dope peddler you need to watch out for is the one selling to you. there are actually people that are intentionally camping you up. i did curate my feeds for people who are okay, who's going to inform and is going to get me amped up walking away thinking those people are bad people, i hate them and all those things. >> no, that's very important. i will say one way social media helped me not engage in all of these arguments that when you find on twitter, it's my fear i could be arguing passionately with a bot. [laughing] >> that, that really, that i could be worked out by something that is not even real. >> you know what? that's a real thing. a lot of things are being driven

by bots or paid trolls who don't even speak english and are just saying things and getting everybody riled up, and people, a lot of times people like you're getting ratio and. by bots and trolls. can we be honest about what's happening? people are not actually sincerely expressing their feelings. so i think, so getting off of social media was one, even with my trauma which was huge, actually huge and transformative, find a therapist who was trauma informed and can recognize a lot of my behavior was going out of of an integrated trauma. to use boundaries instead of demonizing. so i do think boundaries are an act of grace what you let people know sometimes i used to think of boundaries is way to keep people out and they are a way to let people in.

because you say to people like i'm willing to interact with you but these are the boundaries around how unwilling to interact. so boundary for me might be you can't speak to me with contempt. you can't gaslight me. these are some things and those are my boundaries and if you want to be in a relationship with me or in conversation with me you have to honor these. if you don't, then you don't. >> and that's the choice you made. not you, but they made. >> or a boundary around somebody who in the past would have sent me into a spiral four days to just say that just, none of that and i'm not giving you any more of my brain space, like you don't get to take up my brain space. if i'm going to think about it it's because i'm thinking about the way to combat the thing that you did. >> right. >> so i say to figure out what

you are a note to and figure you're a yes two. you can actually be making a difference and not just stewing in contempt and getting a migraine and body paint and all the other things that come with it. >> so can you talk a bit about your journey and being more gracious toward yourself? which is something i think i was reading and your book and a been thinking about it a lot in the past few months because we often initially think about grace as something we need to extend to other people, not realizing we are often in need of grace ourselves. ..

i had to come to, i thought i really don't like who i am. and one thing that i did when i started what lead up to me writing that column that i wrote, i spend that month, how i contributing to the public debate. so, i kind of went back through over the last 10 or 15 years and started working with things, i looked at my last book, i was like wow i really got some things wrong . sometimes things were wrong or sometimes my timing. my snarkiness and other things. i actually started to feel shame. and so i was talking to my

friends. and -- they said, i'm like, but i shouldn't have done this. they said you about one things that use to give people the sense of my quote of you did the best you could. and so, my therapist said, the best she could. and judging her from a healthier version of you. you have to have grace for her, she was doing the best that she could. i was like, wow, you are right. i had gotten to a where i was attending it to other -- extending it to other people. and does not mean you are not accountable for it, but

i can see that is the best they can do. i started to be able to have more grace for myself. you know my inner critic is almost nonexisting now. i am a different person than i was when i started this process. i think, i thought, how would you be able to have grace for other people if if you can't have grace for yourself. when i went through that process and started reckoning where i had gone wrong. and i ran into another person that had done something, i said, i know what that is like, i know what it is like to screw up and do something really stupid and not realize you did it when you were doing it. i know what it like to acting on a pain, that i'm not aware that i even had.

it makes it possible for me to be more empathetic with people, and realize sometimes there will be consequences for that behavior. how do you, that is more the question. i point in the book to criminal justice system, a great example of what people say, do the crime, do the time. you know, but, really, they will be in jail for the rest of their lives? it is an unhumane system, that is not. >> it is not justice, i think a lot of people had to rethink what is a just response to a wrong doing. in ways that we previously had not because there are so many other factors that need to be considered. >> in the way.

someone who had done a crime they are a criminal, machine someone who murders someone is a murderer. but their lives can be redeemed. if instead,s that are opportunities to opress people and to restrict them. and treat them in humanely and throw them away. >> an idea that we used to reinforce. how often do you hear, this person is dead to me, i am done with that person? there is no grace. no second chances. >> right there are none. they are just. i think that is -- those are normal feelings to have.

we all feel these things, i'm never going to say, i am not having contempt again. i thought that is what you do when someone of a bad person, now i notice it, it is more about noticing it, then what do you do with that? but that recognizing that every person has a story. all these things we hear are true. do on to others as you would have done on to you. when you want to call someone out, and hold someone accountable. ask yourself, how would i

want to be treated if i messed up like this. >> would i like an opportunity to do better? she said before you call someone out, take the time to have a conversation with them, let them know that they have done something that is problematic, give then you an opportunity to do better. and instead, a lot of times it becomes, this is an opportunity to you know, prove that i'm on the right side, or i am doing the right thing or whatever it is. think, if i treated someone the way i should not, what would i like to happen, i would like someone to reach out to me, and say that was -- you shouldn't have done that. i have had it happen, i write about it in the book. black girlfriend called my up, said, you wrote something on your blog, i don't think it is okay, you should take it out, i said

okay, i took it down, i heard her, we have a conversation about it. you have the opportunity and thin, if a person ignores it, then you may have to escalate it. some people listen to this might say, i don't have the energy. i'm done explaining to people that is not okay. i think that is fair. i think that what we also there are a couple things, one is, could consider going someone who might be an ally and asking them, i could say could talk to this person, i don't have the energy for it. at the same time, if you don't have the energy for it or to do that, and reaction in an angry way, i would argue that is the person who

is -- usually say the person who causes the harm. you know, a group of people who have been mistreated for generations, and asking for and demanding to be created differently -- to be treated differently and no pardon is listening. why do you go to this person needs grace. >> i want to circle back to something you said two points about you and you doing the best, being best person you could have in that moment. and everyone has a story that causes them to respond. and particular ways. that made me think about how you wrote about your relationship with your mom. to extend grace to her.

how difficult of a process that had been. i wondered if you found it easier or more difficult to extend grace to someone so close to you, compared to a stranger or you know someone who wasn't so foundation will in shaping the world for you. >> i think that when it is a family member. people who are really close to, those can be the hardest relationships. and i don't think that i ever really tried to offer her grace, i -- didn't think about grace that way until i wrote this book, it wasn't until i was writing this book that i realized that. someone asked me, what do

you see difference between forgiveness and grace, i would say i forgave my mom, we always had a very hard relationship. it was always difficult, i felt sort of robbed. why didn't i get the mom that everyone else got. i always -- would to be continued forgiveness, not a one time deal. toward the end of the book, i was thinking about my mother, i thought, all of a sudden, a vision of her being a young mother. she got pregnant with me and left the marriage, and married my father, she came from a catholic

family, and had my brother. today she probably would never have gotten married or had kids. she was pushed into this conventional life, she never would have chosen for herself. she would be living someone else's life. by the time she figured that out, i think she did. she had two kids and a husband. and so, i had so. empathy and compassion for her. and all of these things. parents didn't approve. i don't need to forgive her, she was doing the best she could. there is nothing to forgive. you don't owe me that.

how could you have done any better than what you did. she was doing the best she could. it wasn't that great, even she would say that today. but, it really took my marinating in grace and this idea of thinking about this, and doing all this work. therapy, and meditating and all these other things. and really getting grounded that i got to that place where his -- i had the capacity to kind of have that grace. right? to say. like, grace is creating space for other people to not be you. rather than me saying, i had been her, i would have done this and i would have never do that to a child, and never talk to a child. she is not me. i am sure i have done a lot

of things she wouldn't do. so, it transformed our relationship. >> how did see respond to that? >> i wrote her -- i told my therapist about this, and she said did you tell her, i said no, she said, you should write her a letter and tell her, i did. in the letter i said, and i think, i can't remember if i wrote about it in the book, i just said, i see all of good things that i got from you. and that i learned about feminism. and social justice and equality. my mother was very ahead of her time. and i learned these things. you know. and i said, i know our relationship has been very difficult for both of us, i'm glad we didn't give up

on each other, and i said, i'm glad you are my mom, i wouldn't be me if you had not been my mom. she was really touched. and shocked. she was just called me, and she said i'm so glad, she is 83. you know. she said i'm so glad whatever little time we have left, we can have a different kind of relationship. >> and yeah. >> that is awesome. it is clear that she shaped you very early in so many ways. that makes it difficult for some of us to understand why this very influential person is aol also so difficult in the other ways, you said there is a difference between bad people and bad

decisions. i think we want to make people bad because of their decisions, but you write about how much more complex it is. >> i think what makes a person be a person who maybe is not such a good parent, right, what happens you know, what happened to my mother. what were her -- i have a little more information about that, than i used to have. to understand that we think of it as people doing the best they can, it is not thinking. we often think, what i would do. and it is like, so, it is like, no, it is what they could do. and they have the capacity to do. and i didn't believe in -- i really don't believe in bad people any more, there are good people who do bad

things, but i don't think that people have their, core, necessarily bad, everyone has the capacity. i interviewed jennings, thesologist. he said, that grace is looking at someone that you may not like, or hate, but seeing the possibility in them and of a relationship. or positivebility of what could be. right? and i think that as much as people, i had a lot of people push back on this idea. i just think it is a very beautiful idea. i feel like we just it is if we're honest with ourselves. it is something more

meaningful than what we're doing right now. that a lot of it we're doing because it makes us feel safe. >> we're trying to protect ourselves. at people that caused harm or could be perceived as harmful. >> also, to feel connected to others, i talk about how i engage in a lot of. almost like trauma bonding. traumatized i was and others were. common enemy intimacy, it is a fake intimacy but it feels real, you bond over hating the same people. a lot of people have these relationships, this is my tribe, and my community, we hate all of the same people, and we're tight.

that is not real intimacy.. there are a lot of things we're confused about. i have a chapter on trying to unlearn binary thinking and you know putting things in all or nothing. like. does not mean you can never talk to someone about you know, people who are triggering your or upsetting you, but if your whole identity is hating a group of people, for a lot of americans it is, it is a dangerous territory. back when mlk said, hate is too great burden to bear, to bear, you are bearing it not the other people. i don't want to bear that. i don't want to walk around bearing hatred. it is not -- this not the

kind of, it got to a point of who do i want to be, what do i want to do here on this earth? and what i was doing just was not it. >> yeah, i imagine that. a big part of that revelation is who we do not want to be. and to try to not be that person. and i want to get to a couple questions we have, some you have answered. which is awesome. one that i think people very familiar with, writing and political commentating, what is the grace you find yourself able to give donald trump? >> so, i feel like what people bring up donald trump, i feel, if you are going to start practicing grace, don't start with donald trump. not like taking up running and doing the boston

marathon. don't start there, start with the cousin. i think that i would say that on my best day i can look at him and say, this is a person who is doing the best he, can but it is not good and not okay. it is harmful. he should be held accountable for his behavior, not go down the path of what i used to do, which is really, hating. it is not that i see him in some rosie, you know situation. but i can see just, humanity in him. and you know, and see that something happened to him. but he is a grown up, he is responsible for that. one of my friends who is pastor and who was just out of his mind after trump

became president, he said he was on-line just acting crazy, doing all the these things, he realized he was out of control, he found a picture of donald trump when he was 7 years old, he would look at him, and say he is a person. pulling him down from the ledge, you go back to his -- it is me, it is hurting me. but for me, i don't have to really talk about him that much any more. or think about him that much any more, that was harder to deal with. but i think that what most of us are dealing work yes, even when he was president, most of us. were dealing with. but it would be harmful with

relationships, parents, coworkers and friends, that is where people need to start, that is where most of the people having most trouble. don't go immediately to move most difficult case, i would say. >> it is november, we're headed to the holidays. one asks, do you have recommendations for practicing grace over holidays. >> i think, just a lot of things we talked about here. you know speed read my book. i have a lot of things in there. the first thing is make a decision. that you want to practice grace, i'm going to do things differently, and i'm going to when i look at my mom, she says things that are upsetting to me, i will see here as more than things she is saying, as a person

who wiped my tears when i was a child. but, does not mean it is okay, you say news things, then. boundaries, really get clear about your boundaries, if you don't have the capacity and you know your parents can't have this concern vision, say, can we have boundaries about what we're talking about what i come home. i don't want to talk about politics over thanksgiving. or, i do want to talk about politics over thanksgiving. but i want to set boundaries around it, we'll agree we're not speaking to each other in contempt, but if things get heated we'll take a break. i have a chapter on embracing healthy conflict, learn how to have healthy conflict. a lot of us don't know how to do that. how do you talk to a person who thinks differently from you about insulting them or

making them feel like you are talking down to them, how do you become a peacemaker? someone that comes in and talks about hard things. that is what peace making is. a conversation where healthy -- they will both walk away, they say, i may not change my mind but i fell heard, and seen i might have learned something. also i have in there, a lot of how people change their minds. some things, there are some things you can disagree and agree, and others if you ignore it, others will suffer, learn how to have those conversations. mainly not calling people names or yelling at

them, there are ways to do that. those would be like quick things. you could do. and say get off social media entirely before. you will see something that will get you going, saying, do you know what your people are doing, and you defend that. stay off of social media, and see the people that you are dealing with as just the thing that is making you angry. nail that down. >> you mentioned. how martin luther king has influenced some of your views and rene brown and her podcast. one of the viewers wants to know, are there any other books or leaders that changed your views on grace? >> highly recommend any mlk,

anthology. and really that john russ so inspiring to me. and able to see a person who had you know been through hell. just exuded grace and joy. i was like wow there are people who can do this? and terra brock. she is a meditation teacher, and the buddhist strain, i would say. and rene brown. i would think who do i want to be. and who are the people that model that. and then try to read as much as you can about how they were able to do that. there are models out there of people who have faced

down horrific things and have not become bitter or hateful or any of those other things. but i would you know, mlk, just. all the way. >> yeah. yeah. no, this -- you know it has been an awesome discussion. i have more questions, but the good thing about you, for me and other others viewing, you are accessible via social media. and this is something you will talk about for quite some time, we're heading to -- today is election day. and we will find ourselves you know needing very much so many of the tips you have given us, thank you for writing about it. >> thank you so much for having this conversation with me, it was very meaningful and thank you to

everyone who joined us. >> thank you. >> thank you both. it is timely not only with the elections but, holidays coming up. and so, i said it in the chat there is a link to purchase the book, it makes a great holiday gift. maybe for someone who doesn't always treat you with grace, hints, hints. and thank you for this talk. >> thank you. >> and before we go. a big day. >> thank you so much a great way to start it.

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