>> and just remember to be as neutral and impartial as possible in your portrayal of both sides of an issue. >> c-span awards $100,000 in total cash prizes and a shot at winning the grand prize of $5,000. entries must be received before january 20th, 2022. for competition rules visit our website at c-span.org. >> welcome, everybody to the global affairs for the book and authors seize sponsored by bernard swartz. madam speaker, nancy pelosi in the lessons of powers, written by susan page.

she will ab interviewed by chris and myself and we'll throw it open to the questions at about 7:35. we have a mission to deepen discourse and raise understanding on complex issues in a bipartisan way. before getting a little bit of housekeeping if i may. may 12th at 7:00 we're featuring a program education on politics setting the stage for the 2021 elections and 2022 elections. and at 7 p.m. the international hostage situation and in cooperation with the richardson center and they'll join us and go to wwo

pga.cornell.edu. and you'll be able to have and from texas the former chairman. republican state committee at cox. and the legislator martha robertson located in thompson county and the president of the afl-cio richard trumka and the executive community of board of trustees at anderson, board of trustees. becky robinson at the board of trustees. and now to our guests, the host of chris's publications and out of many of my colleagues look at it cutting through the clutter and sign up for the newsletter.

chris is the co-founder of hosts of podcasts on business technology, science, education, arts, and political conversations ranked number three, and on the politics and the guests, susan page, award winning author of usa today. she writes about politics in the white house, and covered seven white house administration's, and interviewed the past 10 presidents, she's reported from six continents. i don't know where you went wrong on the seventh, i don't know what happened to the seventh content. but in 2020 she moderated the vice-presidential debate with kamala harris. and a point of personal privilege about this book. i as many people know shared with the democratic committee. me or triple c, regarded as

nancy pelosi's chief political lieutenant. and getting to no her. on a typical day i had one meeting with nancy pelosi and on a more typical day, three meetings, four, five meetings. very often the last voice i heard at the end of the long day was not my wife's, but nancy pelosi on the phone and i thought i knew more about her than anybody else. and i'll be honest with you and when i first picked up the book i was a little skeptical. i thought what can i possibly learn from this book that i don't know having spent as much time as i did with her. i know about her from this book than with my interactions for four years so i could not recommend this book, what understanding here and drives

her, strategic and tactical view. her personal commitments, the relationship with families and you must get the book and post it during the next few hours. susan page, thank you for jing us this evening, appreciate it. such a pleasure to be with you. my husband is a proud graduate of cornell, so very excited and they're doing great, invaluable work for our democracy and i very much appreciate that. and i understand some of that credit goes to you. so thank you. most members of congress go back to front and if it is,

you'll begin again. you interviewed. 150 people and spoke with nancy pelosi 10 times and including some of the most complex and challenging days that she had on leadership. your leadership was so detailed when nancy pelosi and steny hoyer worked in 1963 and disclosed that pelosi was paid $106 a week and you know her better than anybody else, anybody else, maybe more than nancy pelosi knows about her. with all of that information what did you have with nancy pelosi before the book that was most changed on the process. and one of the big surprises

wasn't the book, it wasn't the entrance of her father who was, and many people don't know, the legendary larger than life mayor of baltimore, she was really born into political royalty in baltimore. and then nancy was the-- her mother, nancy pelosi told me if her mother was born today, she would be president of the united states and she was smart and ambitious and restless. she was a big risk taker. she played the ponies and she had a regular spot at pimlico. and sometimes her husband would go to the restaurant and pay off bookies that his wife was in debt to.

and she was the keeper of the file, and her husband's political operations and favors she gave to constituents and repaid on election day with-- she was so partisan that this is-- i'll make it short. and they were going to come to the statue of chris cover columbus and be the president guest at the event. and you'd think they'd say yes. and she said everything in the schedule don't let him come near us. after his mother-- the son assured her she was no physical threat, just a political one.

and tells you about the partisan roots of nancy pelosi. >> you trigger something from the book. you talk about when nancy and her husband paul moved to san francisco with the children in tow, they cannot find an apartment for rent. i mean, a tremendous pressure. and then they finally find the perfect apartment until they find out the landlord is going to washington. >> they had their children and nobody wanted to rent for them and they wanted a perfect house, a swing set in the right place and about to sign the lease when she says why is-- to the woman of the household. why is this house available to rent? she says my husband just gotten an appointment by richard nixon to hew and that's why we're moving to washington and nancy pelosi said i can't rent a house that became available because richard nixon was elected and she wouldn't rent

the house. and they eventually bought a house that needed some work because of her-- that's how strong her politics are. and when she was a little girl, her father took her to places on election day and they often did and the poll worker tried to get this little girl, a stuffed elephant as a toy and she wouldn't take it because even then she knew what elephants stood for. >> very revealing. chris. thank you, steve, and i noted that you mentioned, steve, how some folks will check themselves and i notice that at least one of the names of former representatives that are listening is a gentleman who was named and name checked in susan's book so that was not

lost on susan either. i usually like to start the conversations at the beginning and you've written to say remarkable once upon a time there was an incredible girl named nancy d'alessandro's story and a great tale and you've written about power and everyone who i talk to who wants to know about nancy pelosi remarks on her power, her use of power, and want to know where does it come from? that's the essence of her power? you've talked about her family. but also, you talk about the different facets of it and that struck me in the way that you described the way she engaged with three different presidents, george w. bush, obama and then trump. and the way she employed different types of power with each of them. so, talk to me, please, about

nancy pelosi and power. >> one of the things-- i kept changing the title of book. it had a different title when i signed the contract and we went another one and i ended up with lessons of power, but every title i had had the word power in it because one of the distinguishing things about nancy pelosi is how comfortable she is with power. she has no qualms about power. this is a trait that's rare among male politicians and rarer among women mo get into politics, to be so at ease with amassing power, withholding power, and with wielding power. in a congressional-- a long time friend of ours, a long time congressional correspondent, he's now with punchbowl news. about a decade ago he wrote a profile for pelosi described her as an iron fist in a gucci glove. an iron fist in a gucci glove.

i think that's just about the perfect description of nancy pelosi's use of power because she does have a gucci glove. she can be very persuasive and she-- when she needs hard power, she has an iron fist, and i thought this actually in the ninth interview i did with her, and in the ninth interview i was asking her about something she didn't want me to put in the book and she said you shouldn't put this in the book for this reason and i said actually i think it should be in the book for this reason and she started to display the iron fist and it wasn't-- you know, she didn't raise her voice and she didn't threaten me, but she did get bigger, she started out five foot five and by the end of the conversation she was six foot two and asked

probing questions that forced me to articulate and expand the position i was taking and she was trying to punch holes in and got to the end of the interview and she hadn't relented. shouldn't put this in the book and i didn't relent either and it is in the book, but i was so unnerved by the time i left the interview, which was about 3:00 in the afternoon that i drove home, i poured a glass of wine, i crawled into bed and i watched reruns for a couple hours until i felt better. i can only imagine being a member of congress and having an exchange, of much greater import than this one with nancy pelosi's iron fist. >> see how many glasses of wine you're about to drink as a result of nancy pelosi's power. >> she -- you know, that's one of her talents, she'll stay in

the wing with you as long as she needs to. and susan, if i may, there's a-- we go to her office, a wonderful photograph of her father with eleanor roosevelt and you talk about her relationship with her father, an extraordinary power broker, street fighter, former mayor, and congressman. and a quote you shared, after she became the most powerful woman in the history of the country, she said her children had been more influential in shaping the leader that she became and even her formidable parents. and my children, having five children in six years and understanding the difference in personalities from one to the next is a real lesson. and that she derived from her children. >> and i know that parents, who have school aged kids now

during the past year of covid, you understand the skills you obtain by running a household. she said that being the mother in a house of five children required the same skills as speaker of the house in washington, you're trying to impose order in chaos. you're dealing with grievances real and imagined. you're trying to convince sometimes unreasonable people to stop doing what they're doing and do whatever it is you want to do. you have these shifting alliances and with five kids, you can imagine sometimes it's 4-2 and sometimes it's even up and sometimes you're all in your own camp. very much like congress. and this is an argument that, steve, when you're recruiting candidates to run for congress when you're ahead of the-- and she wanted to run, considering running for office

and if she didn't have the right experience, you know, experience is mostly in the home and i believe that, you tell me if you're right, the same skills running a household being a mary, not unlike the skills to washington. did you hear that argument? >> she said that argument many, many times and usually worked. of course, and i send it back over to chris, a famous quote that speaker pelosi used in a white house meeting with president trump when he began yelling at her, and one of them was please don't characterize the strength of-- and another one directed to her experiences as a mom. can you share that quote. >> she said i recognize a temper tantrum when i see one. she came back from the meeting and shrugged off the fact that he had blown his top. she says i'm the mother of

five, i recognize a temper tantrum when i see one and i don't know what trump said when she said that because she did have an ability to get under his skin and another famous exchange actually the last time the two of them had a conversation in october of 2019 meeting in the cabinet room. there was purportedly with syria that became all about impeachment where she's stabbing up and jabbing her finger at him and a table full of men and liz cheney is actually there and all the men are looking at their shoes. general milley he seems to be strained. and nancy pelosi standing up yelling at him and leads a walkout from the cabinet room something i've never heard of before. trump says, you're a third rate politician and steny hoyer told me if he'd heard trump say that

and apparently the remark wag directed at-- to steny hoyer, nancy pelosi, third rate politician, steny hoyer would have said if nancy pelosi is a third rate politician i'm a fifth rate politician and you're not a politician at all. >> and susan, what i like about the point that steve just made about nancy pelosi's having learned from her children getting prepared from her children, is the circle. i mean, from the parents, from the relationship and the effect that her parents had on her, you know, i would have to expect a possible subtitle of your book to be apples don't fall far from the tree. could you take us back to 1950 baltimore. because you paint a picture and bring this period and this time, the cars, the buses, the parochial school, the baltimore orioles returning and to nancy

pelosi, i think it seems that that was where she learned the benefits of being operational and i'd love to hear about baltimore, 1950's and as well there's nancy and tommy the elder, and the way that they used politics to operate, to get things done, to create benefits for constituents. take us back to that part. >> so the elder definitely a larger than life figure, kicked out of -- kicked out of st. louis parochial school when he was 15 years old and never went back to get a diploma at any time. and st. louis invited him back, and honorary diploma, and the new deal politician challenged

a six term democratic incumbent in congress and fdr, one of the main differences between them. he was so enamoured with fda that he named his first son thomas after himself and named his second son franklin delano roosevelt d'alessandro. and these were people who believed in expansive government who was there to help people and big city government, some ways a corrupt government the way we might look at it today, a city government that was known for patronage, for instance. one political boss who want today play aid in a city job and the mayor said, well, what can he do? and the political boss said, we can't really do much of anything. and the mayor said, well, good, basically we can have a blank

slate there for the no show job he was trying to get for this aide. so, a different time in that sort, but nancy pelosi continues to reflect the agenda of her parents. she continues to move in a big government and expansive government, but especially at a time that like we have today in the wake of this terrible pandemic should be in terms of providing a safety net for people. >> i'd like to talk about her leadership race and you covered it just with -- just marvelously. one of the lessons that nancy pelosi learns from the jerry brown primary for president and from other races is you don't look to get into an election, you get in on your own terms, not anybody else's. she decides she's going to run for leader position. no woman had ever been in a leadership position in the

democratic caucus and house of representatives, and she decides she's going to just kick the door open. can you talk about what that race was like and her approach to that race, and you know, there's timing and how she worked the caucus. >> not only had no woman been in the senior leadership position in caucus, no woman had been a senior leadership position in either chamber for either party. so there was somebody waiting in line in that orderly way of the democratic establishment for the job of democratic whip whenever it came over and that was steny hoyer, who had been nancy pelosi's-- nancy pelosi is known for the days they were both working for senator brewster. she disputed the need for those waiting in line and mounted a campaignment this campaign for democratic whip and she announced before there was an

opening for democratic whip and the process of getting an opening took longer than she expected. this race lasted three years. it involved millions of dollars in money raised to buy steny hoyer and nancy pelosi as contributions to members of the house democratic caucus. it was brutal. it was a brutal fight that left some scars that remained for a long time afterwards, but it-- and the fact that it's a secret ballot made it many more complicated. somebody could tell you that they'd vote for you and not do so. and nancy pelosi had her ability to count votes, one of her skills ever since, the job finally came over and the vote was held just after 9/11, in fact. she was the one who won. >> and you know, there's been so much made about the supposed rivalry between pelosi and hoyer and how detrimentalal.

and i always said is that a problem with baby ruth and babe ruth and. >> and steve refers to that period. you just mentioned 9/11 and you wrote about nancy pelosi's reaction at 9/11 and more about the iraq war and about pelosi's relationship with george w. bush as we got into that war and then as things progressed. we live now in a pretty toxic time of politics, but that was not a great relationship and my reading of what you had to say is that it's maybe not all george bush's fault. you maybe hold nancy pelosi somewhat responsible as well,

was i reading that correctly? >> enormously skilled in negotiating this polarized time in our politics, but i think critics would say that she didn't do very much to make the change the kind of politics, to make it less toxic. it's not that she created the situation which we find ourselves with our government often being dysfunctional it's that she worked in the way she was given didn't try to transform it. she and george w. bush had a very difficult relationship and nancy pelosi was the highest ranking member of congress to oppose the iraq war from the start. that was, you know, i was actually thinking about that with the news today on liz cheney. liz cheney is taking a position now that's politically perilous with other own party. the smart money in the republican, with donald trump not liz cheney and that was

true with the democratic party during the iraq war, that the democrats who wanted to run for president, had ambition almost to a person supported the war in its early days and that turned out to be something damaging to them. in any case, nancy pelosi the highest ranking member of congress opposed the war from the start and when she was first elected in speaker in large part because of the war because in 2006 election, the republicans had said because of the unhappiness over the war she was convinced she would be able to convince george w. bush to change course in iraq. she was unable to do that despite two years of all the efforts she could think of and by the time the 2008 financial meltdown, it had been months since they had talked, since the president and the speak her had had a conversation. she started talking again only because the financial crisis really forced bipartisan packs

to try to address it. >> steve, can i ask, we've had the opportunity, steve, you and i, to talk about your vote in the-- against the iraq war and as i was reading susan's telling of that and what i have here, she got nearly two-thirds of the democratic caucus voting no, right? 126-81. one of those 126 was steve israel and steve, did nancy pelosi's argument hold any influence in -- let me ask it differently. how much influence did nancy pelosi's argument in your own decision to vote against the war and what did you think of susan's telling of what part of that story? >> well, i thought it was as if susan was with us.

and i'm going to be brief because it's about susan's book. and one of the powers of nancy pelosi not only the caucus, but district and she knew that i represented a 9/11 district, that my district had lost 2-- over 200 of my constituents. and she also knew that i was one of the most endangered incumbents elected to a republican seat in 2000, considered to be a one-termer, nobody thought, including myself i'd get reelected and i do remember speaking with her and her going through, you know, many of the arguments. and her saying, look, we need to keep you here. nancy pelosi's brilliance is she knows how to count votes and she also knows how to keep democrats in congress. and so she threads a needle and i believe she did that with that vote and others. we're going to open it up to questions and answers in just about five minutes. susan, i would ask you this and

i'm-- throughout the book you talk about this fixation with nancy pelosi's wardrobe. and the headlines, one comes to mind, now, nancy pelosi not just another party girl. you know, things like that. and you know, in obsession with what she's wearing and how she dresses, which i've never heard directed at any male politician, i don't remember my 16 years in congress somebody commenting on my suit or shoes. talk about her attitude toward those perceptions. >> i don't think she worried about them much. she had-- she was the subject of clearly sexist attacks and the only way when she lost, ran for democratic chair after the 1984 debacle with walter mondale who

we also rest in peace. an of that 49 state loss she had been chair of the democratic party and senate and she was the best candidate to be national chair and she probably was, but she was subjected to like you're saying that she was a dilettante, a party girl. and the afl-cio director called her an airhead. now, nancy pelosi may be many things, but an airhead she was not. she lost that race anyway and she complained about it to reporters and about the sexism of the attacks and never ever made those complaints publicly again. i think she decided it was not useful to respond and there was what she developed in the wake of that loss that she would use for the rest-- she uses to this day and that's don't agonize, organize.

and when people come to here, i can't believe they're saying that. thousands of dollars, millions of dollars of attacks waged on her by republicans in the years since then she usually doesn't respond. she says don't agonize, organize. >> let's have natalie give instructions for folks who want to ask question, i want to remind everybody we're with susan page, madam speaker, nancy pelosi. don't agonize, organize. no one gives you power, take it. with another one of her maxims, and natalie, why don't we give folks instructions who you to ask questions. >> if you have any, you can kwa go ahead and write them in the q & a. in you prefer to come on and ask your question live, you can

use the raise hand at the bottom of the screen. >> chris, why don't you pose a question. >> yeah, i want to follow up on susan you were talking about attacks on nope. i want to ask you about this other politician, name escapes me, but i think he's spent four years attacking nancy pelosi very recently. and it's a striking line from your book. so at this point, obviously, with trump in office, pelosi has the highest ranking american woman in congress twice, the affordable care act and bailout and so many things accomplished and yet, it's her ability to stand up to donald trump that gave nancy pelosi would be underestimated no more. was donald trump good for nancy pelosi? >> you know, donald trump had a big impact on nancy pelosi and

the arc of her life because not many people, i think, were aware of this, but she had been planning to retire after the 2016 election. she assumed like so many of us did, that hillary clinton would be elected and she could count on hillary clinton to protect the affordable care act the achievement she's most proud of. she was 76 years old and in congress that would be retiring age. on that election night, she-- when she realized a little earlier than the rest of us that trump was going to win that election, she described it as feeling like she was being kicked by a mule, and she says that was not a metaphor, physically like she was being kicked by a mule. she decided to stay on and stay in power and she felt that donald trump posed a threat to things she cared about like the affordable care act and democracy itself. that's a concern that grew

greater and greater and greater over time and reached its apex with the january 6th attack on the capitol. and i think that trump's ascension kind of made democrats and everyone else aware of some of the skills she had been displaying through her career in the legislature that not everyone recognized. and one of the ways she keeps power is the way she gets credit. she's very careful to give credit to others and she gave credit to barack obama for the affordable care act and that's true, wouldn't have an affordable care act without barack obama and the white house and wouldn't have had an affordable care act without nancy pelosi and congress and i think that her primacy, her skills, her ability to hold democrats together and to play some smart, long-term strategic politics against this -- i

think that's been the capstone of her career. >> and now we'll take some questions. >> a member asking-- has a question. mark, if you unmute. >> former democratic congressman from pennsylvania. good to have you on. >> thanks, susan thanks for writing this book, my question is more, i guess historical in flavor is that i happened to be at woodlands when nancy pelosi gave her presentation in fayette county in western pennsylvania and you've often said in your book and i'm curious to hear more. unfortunately my time there was so quick and i was quite--

i was so busy, i never got a chance to sit down with the speaker and talk about her relationship with jack martha and curious what she shared. >> congressman, thanks so much. and i'm honored that you're joining us tonight. she loved jack and she's not a particularly openly emotional person. she's pretty disciplined and kind of guarded, but one way i tried to convince here to be more candid. i discovered during research during the biography and one of the things that i found at archives at university of pittsburgh were jack murtha's papers, including some handwritten notes he had made about his thoughts on nancy pelosi and these were notes he made when he was going to write a memoir and--

for those who don't know who jack murtha is, maybe give explanation. contrast nancy pelosi, forgive me. >> of course you're right. although you've got a smart audience and i'm sure they know who jack murtha is. >> nancy pelosi is san francisco liberal. jack murtha, from coal country, not exactly a natural ally of nancy pelosi, but the two of them became friends and allies and one of the big assets she had when she thought a leadership position was that jack murtha agreed to run her leadership campaign. this was a huge shock to steny hoyer, by the way, he thought he had jack murtha. so looking in the papers why jack murtha was willing to do this and murtha in his handwritten notes said that a lot of the old guys were reluctant to have a woman as

leader. i think that he would probably fit this that category as an old guy, but she was as effective a leader as he had ever met and i made a copy of these-- i mean, this was like a tablet. it was not some fancy thing, it was written on a cheap tablet. and i made a copy of it and took it to speaker pelosi in the next time i was interviewing her and it was about as emotional as i ever saw her get, thinking about jack murtha, who of course, now passed away and his thoughts about her. >> thank you. natalie, next question. >> we have a question written in from tracy who ran for congress up in ithaca. she writes, looking so closely at the speaker's life and woman as politics, comparing thoughts, do you think it would

be easier for women who operate in congress. has she paved a path or has every generations create obstacles that we tend to --. >> well, that's a great question and again, honored to have a someone who run for congress listening to this conversation, i'd be curious about your view of this. in my difference she's made a big difference. there's now been a woman who has served in in position of great authority and done it more effectively than any other speaker in modern times. i think you have to go back to sam rayburn to find a speaker who has been as effective as nancy pelosi has been in that office. and that has to send a message to women who want to seek position for leadership, to young women who are maybe thinking about a career in politics to little girls who are thinking about what can i do in my life and look up and they see ruth bader ginsburg

supreme court justice and nancy pelosi speaker of the house. yes, i think it does make a difference. >> natalie. >> so, overwhelmingly our questions are coming in, to see if you have any insight on the speaker's future, looking to the senate or presidential run, any insights to that? >> so in 2018 when democrats won back the house there was a contested leadership fight and there was some interest among house democrats to move to a new generation of leadership and at that point nancy pelosi made an offer that she would serve just two more terms, last congress leadership. and this was never put into the democratic rule. it's not a law. you can't make her do it. and she hasn't made a kind of shermanesque statement about what her plans are, but early

this year she did indicate she acknowledged that she remembers making this offer in 2018 and she indicated that she plans to live up to that. so that would make this her last term. dangerous to predict anything too early in politics, but my expectation is that these are her last two years as a leader and last two years as a member of congress. oh, and what she plans next. so, i have a personal theory that it's based not so much on reporting, but take it for what it's worth that i could see president biden appointing her as ambassador to the vatican or as ambassador to italy where her grandparents emigrated from pass a kind of closing element of her career and one reason i think of that, is because her mentor, one of her mentors was wendy boggs the congresswoman from louisiana who is, after

she left congress was appointed by president clinton as ambassador to the vatican and went did i boggs' daughter, one of her daughters was cokie roberts who was someone i interviewed for the book before cokie sadly passed away and she said a that her mother would like that if nancy pelosi followed in her footsteps in that way. >> and asked by rhonda, if you speak on pelosi's fund raising ability quite recently. >> she is unparalleled as an if under fundraiser, she's now raised $1 billion since she was elected to the leadership. and many of her democratic campaigns. a billion dollars. no one else has come close to that. and fund raising has long been one of her strengths and one of the things she brings to the

table and it's one-- she's used it to reward people. she's used it to cultivate support, she's used it to get democrats elected and democrats into the majority and it's a phenomenal amount of money. >> natalie. >> yes, [inaudible] if you could go ahead and you mute, you could ask the question of susan page. >> okay. we will give howard a try. howard if you could unmute and ask a question. >> howard, are you with us? all right. let's-- i did not-- the question, i'll yield my time to the next person.

>> thank you, howard. this is a question that we had a bit earlier. our audience is asking if you might make a prediction who is likely to succeed nancy pelosi now that congressman israel is-- >> of course you don't have to be a member of congress to be a member of the leadership. you can still be a prospective speaker. when you look at people most often mentioned as successor, jefferson, congressman from new york now a member of the leadership, would be ground breaking, first person of color to lead either house, either party in both houses of congress and others, karen bath, the congresswoman from california, former speaker. adam schiff has been interested in the leadership as well. so there are -- several people

who i think would like this, in fact, probably 200 people who would like this job and i think when pelosi leaves there will be a battle. there will be a progressive candidate or more than one and centrist candidate and a leadership candidate. so that will be a battle to watch. nancy pelosi will have a role in that, i'm sure. i don't know if she'll make an endorsement, but she'll have a voice that matters, but nancy pelosi understands when she got into the leadership, the leadership did not determine her victoriment and that she would not be an in position to determine a victory of who succeeds her because it will be up to the member, the i can members of the house and it's a secret ballot. >> susan, can i chime in on this? you talk about the succession talks and how that played out with a number of my colleagues. in your conversations, when it

came up she viewed her successor, with three qualities, core democratic values, number two, somebody who can keep the caucus together which is no small feat and number three, somebody who can negotiate with a president and a senate leadership of both either party. to the extent in my view, when and she she speaks about who replaces her and to the extent that she weighs in on that issue, i think those three criteria are going to be with her. >> and think of how difficult it is to do those things. to keep the democratic caucus together. it's crucial, the margin is so narrow that it's no easy task. you know, her ability to keep centrists from revolting when they have to go back to their

districts, purple districts and members of the squad from defecting, that's a considerable skill and negotiating with presidents. she is-- it's hard to negotiate with presidents. people know when they walk into the oval office. in a way it goes back to her childhood. i have a picture of her in the book when she's 16 years old and talking to jfk. this is a person who has had dealings with a lot of presidents and is not phased by them. >> well, we have about two minutes left. we have a hard stop at 8:00 and so two minutes left. natalie let's see how many questions we can get in. >> and i was going to have a questions for susan i wanted to pick up on and ask from this. susan you just mentioneded squad and the question is, how has madam speaker's relationship evolved with aoc

and to lead into that, you wrote on page 281, nancy pelosi saw something of herself in aoc. even when she, aoc is causing trouble, maybe especially then. could you talk about her relationship with aoc? >> yeah, well, nancy pelosi isn't against disruption. nancy pelosi has been a disrupter and she's not against passion for political views because she has passion for political views and she says when she was thinking about talking about aoc. she said i use today march in protests and rail against the politicians who would settle for half a loaf. but her perspective now is different because while she's disruptive and passionate she's also operational, her highest phrase. and being operational means you can have a strong view, you should have a strong view, but you're willing to do the things required to actually make it

happen. to actually get something done. and one of the best interviews i had with her came on a few hours after she'd had a big blowup with the squad democratic caucus and the four on the squad, on the vote, that the nancy pelosi wanted the democrats to hold together on and rather public criticism between the squad and the aoc's chief of staff and other democrats in congress and she sent that some people didn't understand the difference between making a fine pate' and making sausage and that while it's nice to make a fine pate', most of the time you're making sausage in washington and she quoted dave-- the former chair of the appropriations committee of wisconsin, paul, and had the

saying that some people come to washington to pose for pictures, to show how perfect they are, and other people come to washington to actually legislate and nancy pelosi would definitely put herself in the corner with those who actually want today legislate and her complaint with the squad is that they do not seem to always understand the process that's involved in doing that. now, before we go, the next question. i want to remind people to purchase this book, go to www.-- and follow the links to nancy pelosi and lessons of power. best review you can get. next question, natalie. >> former congressman martin-- unmute and ask your question. >> this is an anecdote and i think-- can you hear me okay?

>> martin. >> and steve may recall this. when the leader-- when the democrats were trying to run the house back in 2006 and we're in the middle of a heated battle. my wife died and nancy called me to express her sympathy and asked when the funeral would be and i i told her, this was in september of 2006 when the issue was in doubt whether we'd win the house. she attended the funeral and graveside and then after that with nancy-- >> and that so curse throughout the book and to-- that just iron clad grip, grasp of everybody who is important to her and even if you aren't that important to her, right. >> and follow up on one thing, after the-- after we lost the house in 2010 the new york times wrote an

editorial saying she should not continue as democratic leader. she asked me to respond to the times, which i did. and i wrote a very, they printed my response why she should remain as leader and i was very happy to do that and it was an unusual relationship that we had. >> congressman, great to hear from you and to hear that story and the kind of bond that that forges to have had an experience like that and the word, i did hear several stirs from people who had similar ex-- i don't mean to sound sincere on nancy pelosi's part, but it's meaningful for people to have an experience like that. when i interviewed bob dole for this book and bob dole no friend of nancy pelosi politically, right. he was very excited because his birthday was coming up and nancy pelosi always send him an orchid on his birthday and this

meant a lot to him and that's what he talked about on this. he was sure that this orchid would arrive in a couple of days and i checked back with her office, and putting that anecdote in the book to make sure that she in fact sent him an orchid and they had. >> natalie, the next question, i think we have time for two, possibly three. >> a couple of questions in the cha the asking if you could speak to the tearing up. state of the union speech. this was-- bipartisanship. >> so you know, i've been in a washington in a long time and never seen anything like that, and the speech last year in 2020 and i asked her about it when i was interviewing her about how the tearing of the text came about. she says that president trump arrives and hands her the texas is customary for the president

to give the text of the address she's about to deliver. and she's leafing through it and she wants to see what he's going to say and she sees something that's inaccurate and untrue and she wants to find a pen and she couldn't find a pen and speaker, there's a desk in front of her, in the drawer, there's nothing in the drawer, no pen and she thinks she takes a tiny, tiny tear and find it untrue and she sees something and she thinks is untrue and makes tiny tear and another thing a tiny tear by the time of the speech, there is little tears all the way up and down and after she store up the speech and some of the people

saw the little tears and there was some speculation that she had been planning to tear up the speech all along, she told me that wasn't true. that she hadn't decided what to do and then the question, the president to rush limbaugh seated in the first lady's box and strikes her as inappropriate thing to do in the president of the union address, and rush limbaugh, toxic for democrats, so the speech ends, she stands up and she said i decided he was going to shred the truth i was going to shred his speech. and it was too thinking, and four pages and tear them up. and mike pence was next to her pretending he cannot see what she was doing. >> all right. and let's take one final

question. >> and here is a question from ellen asking if she could please-- speaker pelosi and newt gingrich and polarity and if you believe that speaker pelosi as unifier of her own party, and public even more-- >> well, she's definitely living in polarized world as was newt gingrich. newt gingrich followed strategies that made our politics more polarized. and nancy pelosi is very grit cal of newt gingrich and newt gingrich was criticizing nancy pelosi. and when i interviewed him for the book he was criticizing as a hard liberal, but then talked about how much respect he had for her as a politician, as someone who knew how to get and use power for the purposes she has.

and he said when he looked at nancy pelosi, he saw a fellow pirate and if you're newt gingrich i think the words fellow pirates are intended as high praise indeed. >> folks, over the next several weeks and months, congress is going to be dealing with an infrastructure bill with continued responses to covid, with campaign finance reform, with many significant challenges. if you want to understand how nancy pelosi develops strategy and tactics and operationally utilizes it, you should read nancy pelosi's. and it's congresswoman delauro, and then bill richardson how to

navigate international hostage situations. google cornell institute, and follow the links to madam speaker, nancy pelosi and lessons of po power. ...

>> at least six president recorded conversation while in office. here many of those conversations on c-span's podcast presidential recordings. >> the presidency of lyndon johnson. he was about the 1964 civil rights act act, the 1964 presidential campaign, the gulf of tonkin incident, the march on selma and the war in vietnam. not everyone knew they were being recorded. >> certainly johnson's secretaries knew because they were tasked with transcribing many of those conversations. in fact, they were the ones who made sure the conversations as johnson would signal to them through an open door between his office and there's. you will also hear some blunt talk. >> i want report of a number of people assigned