black people were oppressed, denied their rights and treated as chattal. there is, of course, a history to american slavery that needs to be told, but she manages to get even the r most basic part f it wrong. >> you can watch the rest of this program at booktv. look for peter wood, matthew smalling and the 1619 project. >> and now joining us on booktv is dr. deirdre mccloskey. she is the author of over 30 books, a longtime economist with the university of illinois with at chicago. her most recent book, veteran humanomics, is just out. what do you mean when you say humanomics? >> guest: well, i'm an economist, i can't help it, but i'm also a historian, and i've

taught as a professor of english and philosophy x. if i think that economics shouldn't give up the math or the numbers or anything like that, but it should add to it what we can learn from the humanityies, from, i don't know, shakespeare, mozart for that matter. i learn a lot from no sergeant every time i hear the flute and harp concerto. so it's an all hands on deck idea that in order to i truly understand our economic t lives, we have to understand all our whole life. modern economics not adam smith the the blessed adam smith. i'm an episcopalian. i always cross myself when i mention adam smith. but not adam smith, but his his

followers. tended to narrow. the field until now economists think they can do economics just by watching people. that's okay. i'm not against. watching people but watching people doesn't tell you about the meaning. that they bring to their economic life. i mean, what does your job mean to you? what does consumption? mean to you these are important questions which the humanities consider. and that modern economics does not so i'm in favor of humanomics. well dr. mccloskey in your view. what does a shakespeare or a mozart add to our understanding of our economic life?

well, they they tell you. why people do things although that's a kind of a simple-minded way of talking about it there. in shakespeare, for example none of the heroes are middle class. and say well in the merchant of venice, no, that's not true that one of the main characters there a -- is is the enemy and and andio the merchant of venice of the title is a is a fool for love. and so what you learn from that if you have your eyes open, is that shakespeare's time? didn't value the marketplace. it valued kings and queens and and dukes and barons and the battlefield. and the church, but not the marketplace.

and so you learn what makes for a successful commercial society? being rather obviously if you're back in shakespeare's time and merchants are considered cheaters and manufacturers are making shoddy bad stuff and we don't like them. we prefer the queen. you aren't going to have a you aren't going to have a successful economy. so there's one thing you learn from from? and shakespeare what you learned from mozart is deeper you learn about form. about the creativity of violating the form. it's one of the most characteristic features of mozart. he doesn't repeat a lot. when he when he when he repeats

there's variation and that's that's a lesson in creativity. and if there's anything central to a modern economy. i don't call it capitalism but innovism it's innovation. so look, there's lots to learn as old student of mine gary hoover has said has said there's a lot to be learned from curiosity keeping your mind open. well deirdre mccluskey, i cannot go ahead. i can offer more specific. a technical reasons for wanting to do humanomics, but i think well deirdre mccluskey over the years we've talked to you about several of your books you've

been. book tv several times and you have brought up your episcopalian roots and activities in the past. what about your religious life? does that play into economics and humanity? well, i'm right now. working on a book called god in mammon mammon was the aromatic the aramaic word, which was the language of jesus the aramaic word for money mammon. and it's called the subtitle is a public theology for an age of commerce. and it it tries to show that god and mammon are not necessarily enemies. they can be enemies, but you know, you can have have corruption in religion too. it's not only in the marketplace and so uncorrupted versions of

these two the sacred and the profane god and mammon can work together. and in my claim is that in humans they do. so if you're going to understand an entrepreneur or a worker or for that matter consumer, you need to understand their involvement with the transcendent. what's beyond the profane? when you buy well when i was younger, i had had a mustang. and oh that made me feel so cool before that. i had a triumph spitfire fire a cheap sports car and oh, hey, how cool and that meaning that we that we that we create as we

consume is true of all humans. it's not just true of the modern world. this word consumerism is a very foolish one. it seems to me because humans always have both the sacred and the profane in mind. when it comes to ethics and morality. what's the role that they should play in your view in economics and human? well in the same book i'm working with what's called in in philosophy departments virtue. ethics, which is the is the the take on ethics that all cultures have a confusion south asian plains indians.

i'm christians pagans all think of the way to talk about virtue is to talk about individual virtues courage faith hope prudence temperance. and justice and love is the greatest of these and on the other hand in the in the in the 1700s. european philosophers like a kant and true tried to up little tricky formulas. for for ethics and my opinion is that they don't work and yet that you have to go back to in a way this simpler, but also more complicated system where you use what we know about courage. and look we've been talking about courage since the hebrew

bible. and the iliad and the epic of gilgamesh and the and the and the hindu masterpieces. we've been thinking about the virtue of courage. or the virtue of prudence or the virtue of love and so using those in instead of trying to work it work ethics down to a formula. unitarianism human, especially jeremy bentham is another example and although it's the foundation of economics and for some purposes like dividing the designing highway off ramp, you need costs and benefits. it's it's not the whole of ethics. and it's not even the whole of ethics in the economy. for as we all know.

for an office small a small part of an organization to work well the people have to minimally respect each other. and we hope actually love each other. and if you if your office is a war of all against all which is so to speak the premise of economics. so, you know all that matters is maximizing utility if that's what you think. all your colleagues are doing. it's not going to work. well, they have to have a sense of professionalism and love. self-respect and respect for you, so it's clear that for the economy to work. it's got to have available to it all the ethical resources of the culture of human culture.

you said earlier that adam smith's followers have narrowed his vision. what did you mean by that? well, adam smith practiced humanomics. his most famous book before his other books the wealth of nations was published in 1759. called the theory of morals morals. morals sentiments and he was well known in europe conf for example read a german translation as a as a moral philosopher of the scottish school, so he was he was in touch with the humanities with with history with philosophy with with politics viewed, theoretically and of course he was he was a generally cultivated man. so he knows shakespeare and so

forth. i'm not sure if it's tasting music. so he was he was as as later economists such as john maynard kane said you can't be a good economist if you're only an economist. by which he meant it if all you think about is cost and benefits and you have this kind of sociopath if at the center of your theory, you're not going to do economics very intelligently and adam smith set this pattern, but it was such a temptation to make it easier. you know, i don't want to read those books at philosophy. oh, i don't want to study history. oh, i don't want to no shakespeare make it easy make it easy and now it's become as easy as it can be and this is true of both marxist economics when i was a kid. i was a marxist and i was so

thrilled by marxism because all you needed to know. was that tree of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle. and end of your education and all you need to know in economics is cost modern economics is caused and benefits. so i think we need to get back to an educated. economics and your went from being a marxist to attending freedom fest the libertarian convention. today although i would i would prefer to get rid of this silly word libertarian. go back to the old world word liberal. which is what i am and what most of the people at this conference are by which i mean people who believe. that no one should be a slave to

their husband to a master to the state i my word these days for for this liberalism is adultism. whereas all other political philosophies left or right or middle treat people as sad or bad children. i think we should be treating each other as adults certainly adam smith felt that way. for his time. he was a fierce egalitarian. not an egalitarian of outcomes of income but in egalitarian and here's a crucial point of permissions. to allow people to trade and to go their way in life by themselves not by themselves. he was a very socially oriented

person so it's not it's not social darwinism. i'm recommending it's it's you can liberalism acknowledging an obligation of the poor but mainly the obligation to let them braid hair for a living. or become an electrician if they want to. deirdre mccluskey permission from your book bettering humanomics you write what needs to be explained in a modern social science history is not the industrial revolutions, but the great enrichment one or two orders of magnitude larger than any previous change in human history. what was the great enrichment?

for women and containerization and all kinds of things what we continue to do after 1800. the problem is the phrase industrial revolution. is that in which by the way was came from french to english? from a person named coinby not the time be you may have heard of but is his uncle in as a criticism of innovism as i would prefer to call it not capitalism and in any case it's it's too it's again, it's too narrow. it's too confined in time. it's all about this. one time explosion off as it once was called in the 18th century, but there have been takeoffs before. and they splitered out.

they didn't keep going. it's the keeping going that's crucial and that took a change in ideology a change in attitude like a change in attitude from shakespeare to jane austenance in attitudes towards merchants and men merchants and manufacturers and and it it's continued to this day. so we're still having a great enrichment china and india are are going through it. and it comes from liberalism. it comes from this equality of permission. the author of probably 30-some books professor deirdre mccloskey's newest is called bettering humanomics, and she's been our guest again on book tv. well, thank you dear. i've

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