agree with our politics or not. at 2:45 p.m. eastern the white house historical society host a conference on the american presidency. history and >> engagement, digital history, first lady impact and influence and interpreting slavery and race at historic sites. exploring the american story. watch american history tv saturday on cspan2. find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at c-span.org/history. >> good morning everyone. good morning, good morning, good morning. welcome to the kentucky book festival. my name is trent and jim mya barber. our first guest, is a native of edgewood, kentucky was the first female marine to flyly combat mission in the faa team per

childhood was chased by love of country, baseball, and from the age of 12 a fascination with fighter jets. please welcome amy mcgrath. [applause] more than 26 years as a special agent with the fbi. today some of the global experiences that shaped her life. please welcome kathy stearman. [applause] can you hear me? yes you can hear me. so l amy sewing let me answer te first question i think you're going to love it. first i went to amy thank you for everything you've done for our country, for your service. for all you have done for young women who follow you and all of those little girls who can look not ask the question

will i be able to do that? will i be able to fly that fa 18? those little girls will say i can dod that. that is because of amy. to give her a big hand for that. [applause] thank you. no, my first question is this. for me and i would say for most people in this n room, we are never going to fly in fa18. probably the closest were going to come is watching the new tom cruise movie where he is not really flying the plane. i really want to know, amy touched on this a little in her book about what it's like to fly in fa18. i want to know more and went to know what that feels viscerally. as it fell like you want to scream and vomit comet as your >> want to come out of your throats.

thank you for that kind tintroduction one assessment vey briefly about kathy and spent a life of service to our country as wellin the fbi. when all around the world did some very dangerous things for t us. and also was a trailblazer for me. because women in the 1980s and early 90s that went into these fields were not necessarily accepted. and kathy, when you read her book you will see just how hard it was for her. it was people like kathy that literally opened the doors for people like me. and so i appreciate you and it's an honor to be standing next to you today. but what it's like to fly at

f18, i always tell people number one you don't have a lot of time to stopik and smell the roses. it is not like you are up there and it's in cowboy you are very intense, you are constantly thinking you're constantly working. i always tell people i can imagine playing a soccer match and how physically difficult that is while doing math problems in your head. and during a radio interview at the same time. all at the same time. when you get out of the jets, you literally opened the hatch of the cockpit and walked out and you are completely drenched. have you ever walked out of like is called in fat or the act in your brain is just fried? that's what it's like after you fly a combat mission.li that is, and your body is just

completely -- make it's like walking off a soccer field or a basketball court after playing a game. it is exhilarating. it is wonderful. i always say it's the job on the face of the earth because it is so challenging in your mind and in your body. in the best part of it is when you do a training mission and fly into las vegas international airport you pull right up to matthew mcconaughey's jets. he walks out of his jet and you pop the cockpit and like yeah man, my shift is better than yours. [laughter] that is the best part. that is always after you've done your mission pay when you are training or in the carpet is extremely intense and not much time to think for a quick that's awesome for the most awesome things you just said is you can look over at matthew mcconnaughhay and say i am awake cooler than you will ever be, dude.

kathy and i have a lot in common we both grew up here in kentucky. we both left home and went into very mail dominated sort of environment and careers and national security. we have lived in some of the same place as alexandria virginia went through training at quantico. we both have the dream at a very young age. i wanted to ask you because you talk about it in your book, you sort of knew white kentucky? you knew deep down you wanted something else. can you talk about that? >> i have to say is a little girl i grew up on a big farm. i discover the rest of the world through books. to meet books are everything for a learn through books. there is somethingrm else. there's more out there and i was

determined to see it. stories did take me too other places. i think that's what gave me the adventurous bug. and for some reason, probably my mom watching her and the fact she did not have many choices. she grew up in a time when there were no choices. and i wanted to have choices in my life. so i was determined that i was going to do something that other women did not get to do. that other women did not want to do. and i ended up applying to the fbi and the secret service andnd the cia. it's going to fly to the state department but i just missed the testing date didn't grow very patriotic. my father was in world war ii. he didn't talk about it but i a distinctly remember my father

saying this long before it became a catchphrase in the last few years. for young is not free. that's another thing my father did that really madehi me think. i always think about it want to watch the tv series i said daddy widened stay in hawaii after four where he was station. he said i wanted to find a quiet place where i could watch things grow. and that really hit me. i knew that was his patriotism talking but at the same time it is what he wanted prints i grew up without feeling of being a patriot. that is why i ended up with a

government agency. so in a nutshell, that is it. >> when you read her book youer will see shows so many amazing stories from her training, for being all around the world india riand china. the stories are so detailed. my question to you is, did you have a journal? how did you remember all that stuff? >> no mostly work i did was classified. i could not keep notes. i didn't write down words and phrases like don't forget the monkey story and things like that. but i have a pretty good memory. if i had a word or phrase to jog my memory, that is how i ended up writing the book. which brings me too a chapter in my book it's the very first one and it is called the foot. and in the foot i talk about being in sri lanka. i work on a suicide bomber case in the suicide bomber was a

woman. my thought was, what did she believe in so much that she was willing to die for? and at the end i asked the question, what is it that we, that i, that each one of us believes in so much that we would die for? someone said are you advocating suicide bombers? i said now that's not what i'm asking. but i am saying is what do you believe in? all the people who went out and march for the right for women to vote. in all of the people who marched for civil rights. when they walked out their doors they b did not know they're goig to come backn where they had no idea if they're going to be killed in the process. and then it hit me, we ask ourer military to go do the same thing. we ask our soldiers to walk out the door and go fight for something that they believe in or we believe input so my

question for you, amy, how did to resolve that within yourself when you knew you were going on a combat mission, did you think about my going to come back or did you just go out knowing you had to fight for something that you believed in? >> i think for me to fly fighter jets and to beav in aviation, aviation in the military is in an inherently dangerous job. whether you are at war or whether you are in peace. if you are the kind of person that wants to go into that field you. have to sort of make peace with that early on. in training as -- i have lost friends and most of my friends stwho i have lost along the way, folks, were not lost in combat. only a couple, two or three.

of the tent friends of mine who are no longer with us, most of them were killed in aviation mishaps. and when you look at that you realize that some of that, none of it was their fault. they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and the machine did not work. we are doing a really, really dangerous stuff. is something you recognize in the very beginning part not everybody wants to do this. but our country needs people to do it. and i am willing to doo it. if i'm going to lose my life in the process, i did it for the right reasons. and i feel like i look back on that time and my life, that is what i have always felt. obviously you never want that to happen. but it is something you make peace with early on.

i wanted to ask you a little bit about your training because i alluded to it at the beginning when we first spoke that you were going through training in a very mail dominated l environmet in the 1980s. and there were people when you read her book you're going to realize there were people who literally tried to sabotage her training. e because she was a woman. i never experienced that. i knew even in the marine corps theree are lots of people who dd not want me there. but i can't ever say it somebody tried to sabotage my training. like actually tried to make me fail. i was wondering if you could talk about that for the reason i bring that up as i feel like there's a difference and even a one decade but i want to training in the 1990s, kathy went through trainings in the 1980s. even having one decade more of integration of women into some

of these fields i believe, you may disagree, i believe has actually changed some of how our federal agencies have worked. because things were better. i actually think things are better now for women when they were in the 80s and 90s. i wondered if you could reflect on them. proxy chapter amy's talking about is my first experience in the fbi was my firearms instructor at quantico. change the site for my gun so i could not hit the target. i knew what he had done i grew up in kentucky. and i kept telling him that my sites werest off he said no, no you just can't shoot you might as well leave, walk out now. until being from kentucky i knew all about kentucky and with that and the help of a west virginia state trooper who stood behind me and told me were my shots were going i was able to get through it.

but that was my first experience in the fbi. and i think three years the fbi has evolved to a certain extent. but unfortunately, one of the things that made me realize when i was writing this book that i was on the right path was i saw in the "new york times" there were 15 or 16 women who had filed a lawsuit this was h in 2019, had filed a lawsuit against the fbi because their firearms instructors at quantico were trying to sabotage their training. 2019 parts i thought to myself, has it changed, really? has it? yes there are more women in leadership positions. but i think in the fbi is still ouinherently male-dominated. and i think that unfortunately a lot of the negative media the fbi's getting is warranted. especially when it comes to those young women the young who

went to the fbi to talk about their sexual assault and they were ignored. i personally think this is just my opinion it's not the opinion of theom fbi, they were ignored because they were young women. so what i do now, i have gotten so many e-mails from young women who want to join the fbi. this is what i say to them. you go into the fbi part you do not let it change you. you change it. and the more women and minorities that go into the fbi the more it's going to change because as you said in the book, amy you said it so well. let me findid it. you basically said when men see women in these organizations and in the positions they are and then they will basically realize that women are not minorities. women can do the job you. i'm paraphrasing you said it so much better. but that is true it amy said was

so true and what i tell young women is the truth. more women, more minorities need to be in the marines need to be that military, need to be in the fbi. and as more women bring their insolence into the organization it will change it will stop being such misogynist mail oriented organization. so i say to all young women if you want to do this, go for it. if you want to be a marine, if you want to fly a jet go for. and don't let it change you. you change the narrative. so one ofrs the things we both talk about in our books is our mother's and the influence that our mothers had on us. you knew really early on the influence that your mother had on you produce all her every day. you are so awed by her. i on the other hand did not really understand everything my

mother had given me until i was an adult brain really fortunate in that the last several years of her life i got to spend time with her. and i got to know who she was as a person. not just my mom, somebody i expected to be there when i walked in the door who said do youu want a sandwich? that was my mom. i got to know who she was and what her dreams were. and so i would like to ask you, tell me about that influence that your mother had on you. and then part of that question is you have a daughter who is five, right? do you want to tell her everything that you have done and everything you have accomplished? or do you want the influence for her to happen organically like it did with your mother? >> probably organically. my mother was a physician to medicalhe school at the universy of kentucky in the 1960s were

my the first women to graduate from medical school at the university of kentucky at that time. and so i knew that about my mother growing up i was very proud of her. but i did not really know how much of an influence she had on other people until she got an award. i was about 11 -- 12 years old. this was in the city of cincinnati. forty-five here i am a preteen woman came up next to me you are doctor mcgrath's water daughter. i looked at her and said yes your mother saved my life.

and you ought to be really proud of your mom. you are really special to be her daughter. that's a first time i ever really realized while growing up my mother did have big influence on me. and later on when i went into the marine corps and did these things, i usually was the only woman and my squadron or unit and certain things would happen and i would call mom. like this happen, mom. what the f. what do i do about it? and should i be worried? how do i get through this? my mom would be like they did the same thing to be back in the 60s just forget about it, move on. so my mother helped me all along the way even as an adult because

she had been through going in that male-dominated environment in the 1960s of the medical profession i was able to basically just plow through some things that may have stopped others because mom was like it's no big deal. move on. water off a ducks back kind of thing. and she today still has a big influence. and with my daughter one of the things i loved about both of my parents is they never made fun of me. i went to a catholic school. girls did certain things, they didn't do other certain things. and they neverer said to me that is a dream that's not for you. and that's the way i want to be for both of my boys and girls club matter what they decide to do, to be behind them. i want to get into some good hard questions and a little bit. but i have just a couple

technical ones. if you guys are like me when i read kathy's book the first thing i thought was fbi? why on earth is the fbi overseas? are they domestic? i wanted to know if you could touch on why the fbi is even overseas and then it occurred to me so i even really know what counterespionage is in all of this stuff is? i was wondering if you could define that for people because you did that.ro and then also talk about in your book, the process that the fbi did with it taking certain things out of your book. because i had to go through a similar process, you should know with mind to the department of defense where they look at it and they say okay you have revealed classified information. so you can't say this. now, they did not strike anything out of my book which is great. but youu must've gone through something similar because you have some black lines in there.

so can you talk about that? >> to answer that first, there are some reductions in my book. and because i wrote a nonfiction book, the fbi prepublication unit has to review up or they have to read everything and that if they have anyny questions thy have to send it to like a certain unit to say hey is this classified? so mine had to go to counterintelligence and counterespionage because that's what i wasav referring to.y' the thing set up and marked out of my book are not classified they said it's not classified, but the general public does not necessarily need to know it. in some of it i thought was just silly because it's like blanket director david petraeus. cia director they've marked out cia is and where you doing that? the letter cia are everywhere but well if you have the letter cia in your book than the cia asked to review your and that could add months to your

publication. mike okay forget i'll just leave it there. but anyway and i will make this quick it's a much longer answerr the fbi's overseas and over 70 offices all based in u.s. embassies throughout the world. most people do not know we are overseas and what the fbi does is, if there is a nexus to an investigation here in the united states and has a nexus to say china, which is one of the places i was station, then i am the person that works for the chinese government to get that information or evidence or whatever they need and get thatt back to the united states so we can do our investigation and vice versa. the chinese have an investigation, i help them with that. : : :

>> if they want the fbi to help with her investigations, the need to make request me and then i go to the directory the fbi and then if it is warranted and we send people over the country and we help them with their investigation and also if there's a terrorist attack and americans are killed, then that is thebi fbi's jurisdiction, the fbi investigates as so this pretty much it with the fbi does overseas and, some espionage, we are looking for the spies and that's what we do, will look for the spies in the united states and i like to say that the fbi looks for the spies and the sea hi hey, make spies and some international, that is pretty much at. [laughter] and now, one of the things that in your book you talk about

training, survival evasion resistance and escape and you would through this training by you know comparison the fbi academy training is like a cakewalk it and but you say can your broken, that in page 167, the goal when you get captured, you become like a pow during this time so the goal is only to resist until you cannot resist any longer and instructors were adamant that we were to come home alive with honor and some question is, because a thought about this especially the last few years, john mccain, has been called because he was captured because he was a pow and i think that sometimes the public looks at soldiers who are captured and therefore's teresa intimate on

tv on camera and it is a lie will knows why it sometimes when the soldiers come home they may be perceived as a loser by john mccain which he obviously was not or that they were weak in forgiving in and so could you speak to that because i think the public really needs to understand this concept as to what a soldier is meant to do if they are captured. >> sure will first of all, you know, it is unfortunate enough that you are captured or shot down, is not necessarily your fault, you are probably somebody who were just doing their job and at the wrong place at the wrong time and so to call anybody i just being shut down r captured losers, that is absolutely insane but i think that one of the things that they training you to do and survival school as americans, is that it

does not help our country once you are captured, to die in captivity okay and it does not help us and it does not help the war effort if you come back in a body bag. so the goal is to survive and yes you do want to give away state secrets, but uncle sam does not want you to die, they wanted to survive enough think the war effort anymore, you are captured and so do what you can toon survive and do it with honr and that means that you're not doing everything that the enemy wants you to do, but if the enemy is torturing you to the point where you will die, then, survive our country will be okay with that and that is with a train you to do and they do it in the really hard school called survival school which is just about one of the hardest things that i have ever done because it involves lack of food and sleep

and s physical contact and they bought different types of abuses and when i went through survival training, i was a senior officer going through and will talk about that in the book in the senior officers going through do not get treated the rest of the country did the worst and it was definitely an eye-opening experience one of the things that i loved about john mccain and one of his last talks that he gave was at that u.s. naval academy right before he passed away as somebody asked him, about honor and with event. he was a prisoner of war for many here's in the north vietnamese offer to get them out early because his dad was an admiral and they said, we can get you out, months or here's before you'll basically cut the line off all of the other prisoners that we are releasing and you will have the lighting get in front and he said no.

that is honor right there, he stayed as a b prisoner of war fr many many years because the roll was that the other prisoners who were there longer, got out first and he said when he was asked, why did you do that and he said well i could've gotten out, enemy of died in captivity but if i had gotten out early, however been able to live the rest of my life, i would've left the rest of my life with no honor. that is with a teacher there and that is what i learned and something that was really ingrained, one of the reasons and that ran for political office because i felt like i had to do something i had to try. >> so i hope people read amy's

book because you actually show people that if you capture, your pow and you do what you need to do to survive, that is a sign of strength, not a weakness and i really hope that more people get that message from you and i don't know how we can make that more prevalent out in the public because right now, i think we are so divided that perception and opinion of this author that i really hate to see it inherited i know that you do as well and kathy and amy, if you don't mind we would like to give the audience a chance to ask a few questions for five or ten minutes if that's all rightse if anybody has a question, if you raise you bring the microphone to you don't be shy and is all good. and i'll just start by asking him he,e, was the most common

question that they think they know already but it surprises you every time they ask. >> the most common question is different the people asked me now, are you going to run again. [laughter] 'if and i'm in a supporting roll at this point so i want to help others. help our country and so i guess it's not surprising about i don't know, what would you say is most surprising question people ask you. >> why did you write your book. >> that is the question i get us the most, some only once in the bunker being liked by did you write and i think that is because you look at these bookshelves will see all kinds of books writtenne by mail fbi agent is only one of the female agent who retired as needed, and that was over 20 years ago it so you don't seek but us written by female ages maybe that's why.

>> hi amy, my daughter is in the rotc, and if you could give her some advice, what would you tell her. >> she army or navy army, awesome, that is great and i would h tell her to stick with , there will be good days and bad days as you back and never regret. that's what i would tell her. >> i see you and him coming, i am coming, right here. >> i read your book kathy and of course i love it but i have a question, and this is just piddly but why - it sounds like you have to be a lawyer's opinion explained that a little

bit. >> that is a question that they've asked fbi headquarters since the offices weree open and the department of justice actually sends attaches over to the embassy says well and they are called, i dunno, the doj attach a areat something like tt and so the fbi said releasing this over they have to have a difference in themes of thath they came up with the legal had such a which makes no sense whatsoever because this will sounds like it, you are and were not from the same unit as the other attaché are from a lot of us, we actually went to headquarters and we think and we change the name and confuses everybody in the headquarters said no, she was trouble you're going to haverw to changes thatn the big markets was trouble in time and money and it will take years and bob loblaw, and so that is government efficiency at

its best this next question comes from everybody who enjoys books and what are your next projects in terms of books that you both have one in the works. [laughter] >> i do plan to write more books but i would like to write about women from history, women that we don't know about and i want especially women to know about and so i'm shortlist of women that i discovered in my travels and my work and who is this woman, have never heard of her and so i want to write about this moment and because i want people to realize that our history was built by women, not just minute and so writing about me was one thing in writing about another woman is another, and literally another story so i've actually started nmsa and freedom nonfiction so that i can learn the craft of writing

nonfiction about other people because it's totally different than writing about yourself. >> i don't have any projects as far as a book in the recent - but i do like to write and write a light and a lot and i write when there is a spark as of january 6, i actually wrote not only no offense each of my manuscript and i rewrote the last doctor ashe i scrapped the last chapter i have it all into the publishing everything then generally six avenue nights n a, we are not getting his printed yet and i got to rewrite this so when i see a spark, that's when i go out there and i have written i three or four vitamin published nationally, yesterday and you're saying today is your hand usually isg about the presidents and some of my

experience and credibility in talking about some things that are happening in our country is are you like to write but as far as a new book project, talking about lucas like they are taking all of my time and they are amazing it but even focused on theer doctrine and. >> cavalry questions right here. >> i would like to ask either of both of you, when do you all think that we can do to stop the division in the united states. >> i think that what we can do individually, number one, we can inoculate ourselves a little bit against this information and try to help others that we know get

inoculated from this information and i look at this and i look at it pretty much as a national securityt concern and looking at what is happening in the country and this information that's dividing us and whether trying to push and it is working. so never my lifetime what have ever thought that our capitol would be breached and has not been since 1814 so i feel like that is something that attack and everybody is sort of want to look at the politics and race up the hands but there's nothing that we can do and i want to news this crazy but there is something you can do, that is not give up. and it is more than just voting coming deliver country right now, you have to do more than just vote, you have to and whether it is supporting a

candidate that you like the valleys and the values that you have, maybe aat supporting somebody that is not here in this city, maybe a supportingt somebody else and why is that so important because it is about our country and so i would try to tell people coming cannot just sit this one out, your patriotic american, you have got to stay involved and support in any way you can and that's what i would say. >> and i would like to head to any said about listening to national security issues and it is a national security issue, having lived and worked in china, and china have particular expertise for almost 30 years, while we are eating ourselves from within with our division, there railed on attorneys are quietly going aroundd the world and there getting allies and they are buying raw materials and there are loving the factat that we are destroying ourselves

from within so that's what we have to stop, this issue in sort of this fighting with each other and not trying to understand how the other person thinks across stthe aisle, we need to start to understand each other better and coming to some way that we can work together as a country again because we don't, china circling anatomy, that is our biggest threat. >> any gathered we have time for one more question. >> actually have a two-part question, the first part is as an example of the existing sanctions for the - fbi. [inaudible]. and with respect to as a result of and sing apart is that what

can males do to better understand and be able to connect with - within the organization or with females or other culture. >> can you repeat the first question again. >> yes, well an example of where were able to recognize and perhaps better respond to females and perhaps other cultures as a result of your trailblazing example. >> okay so the question was, give some examples of when the males were able to accept in response to you and in yourou career and i can tell you thatil

and this isn't true for all women in the military okay, but ii had my stories and military was w that while there was some direct, okay, the no doubt so by and large, when i found in how the men respected you, what i loved about the military was performance mattered. can you put the bomb on the target in time. you can't mess with that, the target is gone and you have to take a look, and is one and can you land the 70 million-dollar jet the back of an aircraft carrier at night in bad weather, thank you brother identity and can yous do it, nobody else in the car good and so once you have done some of these things, can you make it through survival school as a senior reportingng officer in the senior officer

when he getss beat up the most of, yes, i did it and can you do it and so when you have done these things, men who are your hearsay yes-man, she is for real women who are your superiors are harder to change because they have never had women peers and is not that they're bad people, has not, most is that they have never trained with a woman and they have never had that experience and going for 20-mile hike the same pack right next to viewing their whole career is that they have been with men and so they've always know back in the minor not quite sure but your peers, that you train with you, get it and then when you rise into leadership positions, you can change the dynamic of the culture and when i first when intodr my first squadron to talk this in the book, there was

a lot' of intakes, a lot of locker room seven you can read about it is interesting. when i came back in a higher ranking, guess what, none of that stuff happen, i wonder why because now i'm the one in charge, we found out about that was iha guess what, the bombs still hit the target on time in the just did not turn pink, we still did our jobs and we did our jobs without all of that cr ap and we did it better and so that is my lesson if to the folks who are integrating that women and corporations had an tbusinesses and agencies is that you can still be very professional with without all the antics and the performance matters. >> i agreed for my career as i progressed up the ladder with a couple of exceptions with my peers, when i went up to the

letter, that is when i encountered a man who did not want me to be there and so i can set in her book, when more women are in those positions, and the. men will then start to look at women say okay, well now were accustomed to see women in these position and they do their job well and then all that other nonsense will go away but i would like to say that i'm pretty down with theha pinkish shadow because - with the chinese and russians. >> thank you all. [applause] [applause] >> thank you for coming and thank you for writing books and have to say, his awesome and thank you for being here, you guys are great. >> i want everybody to read the book, this is how many questions that i wanted to ask amy today and i knew a that i would never get to them so i had to be god if you and i'm telling you this

book is awesome and you need to read it and i'm sure there's a way they can get in touch with you to ask the wrong questions. >> it thank you for joining m us this morning and very special thank you to amy and ms. kathy and coming up next at 1130 join us at the stage. have a great day. weekends on "c-span2" are an intellectual feast every saturday marking history tv documents america's story and on sunday book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors, funding from "c-span2" comes from these television companies more including charter communications, broadband is a force for empowerment that's white charter has invested millions, building infrastructure and upgrading technology and empowering opportunity in communities bring a small, charter, connecting us. >> charter communications, along these television companies,

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