c-span fan and every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations. c-span's mother's day sale going on right now only at c-span shop.org scan the code on the right to start shopping. good evening, everyone. i am absolutely delighted to see all of you joining us for the inaugural event of our director series for those of you who do not know me. i am christy coleman. i'm the executive director here at jysf. and again, i'm delighted to have those of you that are safely masked and distance in our audience here at the robin's theater at jamestown settlement as well as all of our guests that are joining us on zoom and to those who will be seeing this later for all of our guests on c-span american history that is joining us this evening as well. so what are we doing?

right. what is all of this the purpose of this series quite simply is an opportunity for us to expand our mission which has been around for about 25 years. most folks know our mission simply as the jamestown yorktown foundation through its museums explores the convergence of cultures between native americans europeans and central west africans. but there's another part to our mission that is often left out and that is to also explore the legacies bequeath to the nation. so this series is about all those things that have been bequeath to us. the things that are more light-hearted some of the things that really are going to be all of it's going to be thoughtful and engaging but the point is to allow us to understand that history really is usable. and it should be not cherry

picked years of all so this whole series has some amazing guests that will be joining us and tonight is no exception. now tonight you're going to meet dr. jason herbert. now jason if you ask him to describe himself, he will say he's a dad a former high school teacher. he's an ethnographer for the seminole tribe of florida. he's an environmentalist to come a conservationist. he loves turtles and tortoises and anything with a shell. and he's a scholar that's passionate about the history of the relationships between south eastern american indians europeans and africans in the 18th and 19th century. recently earning his phd from the university of minnesota his dissertation examines the social political demographic and ecological transformation of florida with the introduction of

livestock in the 16th century, though. it also caused the expulsion of several native inhabitants by the 19th century. now as many of you know well, maybe you don't. but as many of you know, i am a huge. movie fan i don't care what kind of movie it is as a matter of fact movies film theater all of that brought me to museums in the first place. and so one evening in august of 2019. i know because i went back and looked through my feed to find when did i first, you know interact with him is august of 2019. i stumbled on jason's twitter page at herbert history and discovered his historians at the movie #hatm. if you're into that sort of thing. right, and it's a multimedia experience that connects historians and others each week through their favorite films and

these are not just historic films. i mean last week last week it was what's love got to do with it right the teener turner biography. and the conversations that were taking place there were really amazing and and the scholars were engaging with the public the public was engaging with them and and there were several really interesting points that came out during that conversation and that was that throughout that film. we really other than the music and the clothes. they don't really go into civil rights or women's rights issues or any of that but it plays out in what happens and then there was a considerable discussion about the history of domestic violence. and legal changes and i was one of those who was stunned to learn that marital rape. did not become illegal in the united states until 1993. so the point is regardless of the movie. there's all these amazing

tidbits that you learn and all of this got started actually with all of this got started back and i think it was 2018 when he actually started this with national treasure. the nicholas cage movie right like the indiana jones of museum people. and it's really a favorite of our so anyway, we're gonna show you just a couple clips clips here about how this works. so if you're interested you can participate as well now since it's launch jason has become an important voice in the network of historians museum professionals and others on a variety of social media platforms and this community of public historians. don't just observe they interact with the public where they are

and hopefully we're able to bring them to a greater understanding of our shared historical paths. so if you're interested i encourage you to join us because historians at the movies is now franchised. in the uk and in australia and like i said every sunday night at 8 o'clock you queue up on netflix the film. and you can interact with all of these amazing people. so now it gives me immense pleasure to introduce you to dr. jason herbert. please give him a warm welcome. all right, jason. alright, i guess it's time. it's time it's time. all right, so all of this i mentioned here that all of this started with national treasure. so how many of you actually

wondered if there's a secret message written on the back of the declaration of independence. yeah, yeah. talk to us about that and then we're gonna jump into some other things first. i'll put in a plug here because maybe the phone for most famous moment in h atm history was actually for your next guests. so die make sure you when you come back you ask dr. joanne freeman about whether or not you should put lemon juice on the back of the declaration of independence, but you know httm, like so many other things happen entirely by i have finished my graduate coursework at the university of minnesota and after spending way too many winters up there. i retreated back to florida where i could be back to where my research would lay and when i did so i realized pretty quickly that i lost a lot of those connections that you have in college and graduate school certainly while you're working on your dissertation and so forth, you know the conversations that you have not only in the classroom, but in

the hallways over dinner, whatever when you're watching the game, whatever those are the things that really inform your experiences inform your scholarship and really important inform who you are as a person but when i left minnesota, you know, i lost that and i had to figure out a way to recreate some sort of academic circle for myself. i got more involved on twitter. i had kind of messed around with it earlier on when i thought i was going to create the world's greatest dad blogging side. i had a blog called a fistful diapers, but that in what to do with that but i i did get involved and i happen to see one day, you know, you have these conversations. between other historians and the running gag right between historians and in archaeologists. so archeologists, you know, they get harrison ford they get indiana jones. historians we get nicolas cage right we get benjamin franklin gates and that's all fine and good because who doesn't love national treasure national treasure, too, but i'd happen to see that it was available on

netflix one day tweeted out. hey, we should all watch this. people say okay. let's do it. you'll be in charge. great, so we do and it's a big night. it's a lot of fun and it was a lot of fun, right we get done. i think oh we should maybe do this again sometime. well next week jason. okay, so we do and we end up doing lincoln and then we do a marie antoinette the next week and then we do cocoa and we do trading places and then we are off to the races. so after about five weeks we were just rolling with these movies. we've been watching now for almost four years and that's how it gets started. great. i mean because i like i said, i i was one of those people that stumbled on it and and i don't remember i don't really remember exactly what film it was, but i remember having such a good time with it and making sure that i had started my netflix right at eight o'clock, so i wasn't like two seconds behind everybody else that was watching and and it was really an incredible thing and as i shared with with

our audience and our guests that the the tidbits of knowledge that come out of that. we're really really insightful in a lot of different ways and i think i think lincoln's been done twice, right? yeah, so and i was really into that because daniel day lewis. i mean, he's just lincoln i mean and there was nothing else that you could see for a long time and that one but i'm curious because having gone through all of these films and and doing that especially related to your academic work. right where we all know that indigenous people have not been represented well in film and so i'm curious about the elements of your scholarship particularly as you you know, it's it's the idea of interest the idea of the introduction of cattle and how that impacts the society and how they are moved and displaced and then and then they end up becoming the seminal end up becoming cattle farmers themselves at different points in time. so, i'm really curious as you

think about your own academic work and you see these films and you interact with these films. do you have a slightly different perspective on them when it's tied to your work because i know when i watch civil war films or revolutionary films, i want to pull the little bit of hair. i got out sure, right. so what how does it work for you? well, it's you know, it's great question. right because one of the things is definitely representation matters and we'll talk a little bit later. i'm sure about why we choose the films and so forth that we do i say we because i'm from kentucky and everything is is we according to my grandmother. we are going to go clean they do the do the vacuuming. i knew what she meant. but yeah, you know, so representation matters, you know a lot of times when you're in the archives or you constructing a history one of the questions you're trying to ask yourself is what's not here, right? what's not being said because history is like everything else or bias people can't help but right from the perspectives that

they have and so forth. so you're trying to you read a bunch of histories, right? you don't just read the one book. you tried to see these other perspectives and trying to get it. what's not there and unfortunately with say indigenous history right many of those books many of those things have not been written from indigenous perspectives or often based off of records that are biased colonizers and so forth and these were things that i was running into when i was constructing my dissertation. how do i get how do i understand how seminal indians felt about cattle in the in the early 1800s right? there were no diaries right left by by seminoles at that point in time the all i could have or exchanges that were recorded, but we can't quite always trust those recordings and so forth. so it was difficult at times to kind of suss out. what's really going on to give something new and new flavor to this and certainly that affects me when we do work that that is

about indigenous or watch movies are about indigenous history, but i would tell you that one of the problems we have is we just you know, there are not a lot of big budget indigenous films right now now that is starting to change film a people are turning their eyes towards more indigenous filmmakers. so in that just not just on but also television and so forth, right? so you're starting to see more and more voices turn people turning towards that and that's that's a really really good thing. but for the longest time, we haven't had that so i can tell you there's not a lot of stories of cinematic episodes about indigenous, florida about these changes and episodes that happened in florida. so where are those right? it does leave you lacking, but you want more i guess there's maybe a thing for me is a person who studies indigenous, florida. i just want more i want to see more stories and specifically more stories by indigenous filmmakers to try to watch as many as i possibly can but we're limited still be big and there's reasons for that. and i mean, that's another

disconnect too. right because there's there are very few films and fortunately right there. i've seen more works being produced and written by indigenous people in the last few years, but what's interesting is and i think in the general american psyche, there's like an indian. hmm right without recognizing the thousands of tribes and experiences that they were having and depending on who the europeans were that came in when right. i mean here we focus on the english coming here, but i would i i'm curious how many of you knew that the were here first. oh, that's good. y'all are all members, aren't you? good. yeah, the spent the spaniards were here first the french rolled through but it's the first permanent english colony, right and that sort of take has taken over the american narrative without fully appreciating the fact that the french were in the areas of

louisiana and the mississippi delta you had french coming in through the great lakes regions you had germans and dutch in in what we call now new england and and so forth. so the point and and the point that we're thinking a lot about at jyf is how do we help our guests understand that diversity of culture has always been an american thing. on these shores in north america, there's always been different tribes different nations, even if they are in sort of these confederations or collaborations, right displacement moves them into other territories, which can create conflict you have these cultural influences that start playing into all of this and so i think you know, i mean i i you know when i was growing up my parents, you know sort of their downtime sort of comfort television watching was things

like big valley and what was a big valley ponderosa the rifleman stuff like that, right and i would cringe watching those right? i would be like how do y'all watch this is horrible how they're depicting. you know, it's horrible and then over time, you know, i as i've been trying to you know, learn a little bit more and understand these different dynamics. i'm really? throne a little bit by what you just said, i mean the fact is the as much of the scholarship as we would like to see simply isn't there and but the beautiful thing is we're incorporating other disciplines to help us right. so whether it's the archeology work that gets done helps fill in the gaps now, it's dna stuff that can do and i know that some tribes do not choose to do that

participate in in dna, but it's all just like, you know, so as you're you know as i again, i was reading your i was reading your dissertation your dissertation topic and and and i was like, okay, so he's really trying to dig into all of this. in this piece. so how long did it take you i got to ask because that's right the dissertation probably a four years actually to actually write the dissertation because i was trying to tell three different three different stories trying to triangulate three different stories and ultimately the book will try to triangulate five. i don't know how to make sense right didn't take whatever right? because i was trying to tell the story of seminal indians right? it's trying to tell story of the land that they lived and lived upon today right and then also of this animal that binds them together this cow, how do you write a history about a cow? how do you write a history through a cow and then ultimately i also want to bring in these other stories or these two other stories. i wanted to bring in just didn't

have enough time that of settler colonists in florida called crackers if you've ever heard this expression these cracker pioneers and then also of the maroons who live in various states freedom in florida as well, so they're really these and they're all related to this animal. they all kind of come converge around this animal in florida. so it took a while and i'm about to pick back up on a few more months. i'm gonna fish for a little while for us before i start trying to write that book fish and and talk about movies. yeah. yeah. okay. so one of the things that always cracks me up is when the movie is i don't know. i i saw you while we're talking about holy grail. mm-hmm, right? have you done that yet twice twice twice. i miss hologram. okay, so you guys, all right. so you have to share with us the from your perspective some of the greatest things that popped out of that from people's conversations about yeah, i know. okay, you know we have a family

audience. oh, well, i have let me look. i would this, you know. the audience for historians of the movies skews quite widely. we've got graduate students. we've got college students. i've got a big group of college students the history club at the university of oklahoma is like one of the big big supporters of hatm and they're out there. hey guys, but also we've got retirees. we've got a big one else, right? so as a result, you've got people the fun about something about watching money python the holy grail if you've seen it before is that you've seen it before it's a lot like going to walt disney world, you're gonna see something different every single time, but you know what's coming, right, you know about this rabbit, right? but then watching the responses by younger people who have never seen this film like oh we're watching movie about the middle age about the holy what is going on here, right and the fun part of hatm the movies are great, but it serves as a backdrop.

the fun part is watching the conversations that get going between mean people and not just between say other scholars, but between historians between electricians between nurses and doctors and all these other folks who have bring all these other experiences and relationships to film or their passions. maybe someone isn't a quote unquote story but loves learning about the middle ages, right? they've read all the books. well, they're gonna tell you a lot of neat stuff about it. so that was the really cool thing is like i think with monty python holy grail was like what is going on with this film if you've never seen it before that was that was that was a lot of fun, but just watch people minds get blown watching that film. so what's the film that the interactions may have surprised you the most? oh, it was jaws who's jaws? really josh changed the way i thought about films. okay, so we everyone seen jaws right by now, i see most of you have what i came to understand

about jaws was the personal relationships people formed with movies and their identities. and so you know, i grew up in there in the 80s and early 90s, so i grew up with star wars in indiana jones and had those relationships with jaws was the one when we did jaws right because we brought in a bunch of fisheries biologists to tweet along with this and and so forth to talk about people would talk about where they were when they saw this movie. what they did as a result of seeing this movie why they won't go get in the water because of this movie and so forth right and you know, this gets back to the idea that histories these movies are not just history movies, right? they've become events. they become these these moments in time jaws was really the one that convinced me and we had and boy spielberg really stands to pull this out because you know a couple decades later. you've got jurassic park and you've got a whole other generation saying the same things when we did jurassic park that these other generations said when they saw jaws, and it was really a neat moment to kind of talk about how people related

to these films talking about what these films meant to them and how they forged these moments in their lives the movies that we have the best reaction to we've done a few like opening night kind of things. oh this movie just came on netflix this week. let's watch that and that's all fine and good people don't know the film. they're kind of watching it before they can tweet along the movies that we talk about best are the ones have close to it, right? so that was really that was that jaws was the one that kind of changed the way things went. okay, well. spit then. no. the the impact i think i don't think you can. dismiss the reality as you suggested here that films can often shape how we view either the past. or how we view sort of a current situation right and and i'm often struck by that that idea that you know it informs us.

i remember sitting in the theater and i you know. little older than you but when oliver stone did jfk sure. and y'all remember that right? and so many conspiracies, you know, the magic bullet and the this and to that and kevin costner was at the height, you know at the time and and people were really just almost i mean taking that what they saw in that film as a call to action, which was really fascinating right? i mean and so this this but we have to be really careful because unfortunately most people who do consume their history through popular culture. there's a problem with that, right? so this might be a harder question but list off of it, maybe your top two or top three

most problematic. alleged historical films. oh, well, i guess you know being being here virginia and so so tied to so many elements in american history. i think the first thing we would have to talk about is the patriot. right. we love watching the patriot boy people really love watching that watching this movie, you know, just like a lot of these jfk jfk is an intoxicating film right oliver still and say what you want about it can make a movie that just kind of draws you in patriot does the same thing right which tells you these stories and it tells us a lot about the reason it was a big hit was because it told a story that a lot of people wanted to believe going all the way back to the very beginning when you see this big beautiful plantation owned by mel gibson and his family. i think benjamin martin is a character's name, right and who was laboring on these on this plantation, but african and african descent laborers, right

and families, are they enslaved in south carolina? no not according to this film, right? they're just happy to be there, right? um, and who doesn't want to visit, south carolina, but not under those circumstances. so it tells us these stories right? it's this one that kind of tesla clearly benjamin martin is a good guy. he's an american guy. he rejects slavery clearly right? tell us these stories about america in through benjamin martin we force we come up with these ideas. they're americans are heroic. grudgingly ally themselves with the french and they forged this nation. you know in the context of this cool british empire, right? so that's one right. jfk obviously would be another one one local to hear the disney film pocahontas right with his images of of pocahontas of native folks and so forth, right

that would be others and you know, we can go the big one here. it's gonna be gone with the wind clearly the most dangerous film probably made in the united states in 20th century. telling these stories of this beautiful southern world. that's really you know, this this history right this that is clearly false, but because people internalize film as truth right just like with jfk. oh, this makes sense. atlanta was beautiful. right and we had this great relationship. oh this was about honor. this is about personal pride this what this war was. no, it's not what this was about the civil war was about one thing. i was about this horrible institution called slavery, right? that's what we need to understand about the civil war many other things right, but it wasn't about honor it wasn't about this lost cause narrative that that this book and movie sold and people purchased in ingested.

you know for decades and we're still dealing with that to this day. yeah in as a matter of fact, i mean that was one of the you know because of that film. we saw this now on the museum side of the world. we saw the increase in plantation houses being renovated. to have sort of the grand magnolia tours, right and and virginia was was great at that, you know selling that and there would be billboards with these young ladies and these, you know hoop skirts and you know the fans and sitting on porches and and if they happened to be able to find black people to take pictures of in there, you know that are holding the trays or what have you. it was really quite an interesting film and and what makes it i think such an important film too is clearly. it's an extraordinarily will crafted. film in terms of a hero arc in

terms of some archetypes that are in the family. it's just a brilliantly done piece of work, but historic film it is not as jason says and and it is one of those things that you know over time people have the sort of love-hate relationship with the film right? i mean, i know i do it's beautiful film, you know, clark gable was was really lovely, but i have those cringe-worthy moments and and i and i think i always have as a young person when this film because it used to run on tnt all the time. right in the early days of ted turner and the tnt network and tbs and all that and that was like his thing gone with the wind you could probably catch it every month. right, and what's interesting now? is that the platform i forgot which platform it's on. i don't think it's on netflix. it's on one of the streaming services and it has sort of a

warning label on the front of it that sort of explains its historical things and some of the inaccuracies and so forth before the film runs. there's some similar things that disney has done. with their some of their early animations and films that were really pretty. you know. pretty horrible to people of color not just black people and some of y'all are giggling. i know you remember right? i mean, i'll never forget watching and i had to be like six or seven and saturday morning sitting around and i used to love watching little rascals the original little rascals and it used to they used to run reruns. you know, this is on the same day that they run reruns of the original star trek, so i had really kind of an interesting childhood and and i'll never forget there was this scene and i stopped watching it after this and like i said, i was a little kid, but there was this scene where buckwheat they're all you know, they're working really hard. they're trying to do some build

something or do something and buckwheat goes like this. and the idea was that he was sweating the black off of him. and black paint or whatever just splashed across the wall when he's wiping his sweat and i remember looking at that going. what is happening? right and i was a little kid, but these these films, you know, we think about you know, i think one of the things that what i hope that we're learning is these types of public and cultural expressions. are not always harmless. right, they're not always just fun and we see this in in our work sometimes too. i mean we one of the transformations that we've had in the last couple of years here at jyf involves some of our products. in the museum stores and when i started two years ago today the

19th of january when i started there were members of the staff particularly the education team some members of the retail team who were deeply concerned about some of the products related to indigenous folks that is made in china and they're really really akin to selling mammy dolls. right, you know really exaggerated or really bizarre. types of things and they didn't want to sell them anymore. and that was one of the first things that we did i said, okay, we'll pull them. they don't need to be there. we don't need to have those images if we would not sell that then we shouldn't sell this. and in fact what we should be doing is getting our supplies and our materials and our you know the goods that we sell to the public it would be great if we could get those things from our indigenous communities in particular. have them you know, and it shows sort of this continuity of culture because there's this

other thing that you know, you don't have as much of a problem. i suspect in florida as as we do here in virginia and the carolinas, but this idea that they're that eastern indians don't exist anymore that they're basically intermixed people who have chosen to call themselves natives and and that is dangerous because it feeds into a stereotype of what an indian should look like right and so and that's that's why again these films sometimes in these stories that we see and the way that they're depicting people can be kind of harmful. and then there's the other movies that are just fun right regardless of how they they flow another movie i because i don't yeah, i'm sure yeah, you've done it top gun. not yet. you haven't done way down. wait a minute waiting for it. i'm waiting for it to be to drop. it's i thought it was a paramount. that's right. okay, we only do netflix. well, we do we do have netflix

amazon prime and disney plus now. okay. so for the first couple years we did only netflix and the idea was that if people know eight o'clock sunday night netflix, it's all i have to do is worry about what film we're gonna watch on that. it's took away from some some of the stuff right and over time one of the things that ran into was i can't get the diversity of films. you know, i want to not only show a diverse set of films that reflect like different historical eras context war drama what comedy even right something like that but also representation of people right every film can't star the single white male romantic lead, right? that's fine for them to be that way, but it's like, but you need to wear the people of color where the women right where where lgbtq is. so forth right where those stories so we had kind of expressed beyond but what we have to do is wait for these movies to become available because all these streaming services are paying for

licensing for whatever film so top gun is a huge film because come top gun comes out in 1986. cements tom cruise for the next 15 years is the number one movie star in the world enable recruitment. shoots through the roof, right? i want to talk about all these things can't do it yet, and i'm waiting to see top gun too. i am also ready to go. i've been waiting for years to see this thing. yeah. yeah. i'll be right there too. yeah, i watch maverick, but that was that was a really interesting thing you write about how naval recruitment just was insane and and for the first time they were having to kind of turn people away who were interested in in some of those careers related to flight. so again the power of film the power of film so before we go, i've asked you the bad one and the ones that you've enjoyed the most what's one last film before we opened the floor to our guests that you would want to talk about or the experiences of ht, you know hatm that you want

to talk about. um, would say trading places. hmm right many of you probably remember this comes out and i think 1983 right 8283 starting a very young eddie murphy and dan aykara, jamie lee curtis among others, right? trading places was the found was the turning point when we started doing hatm we of course we started with national treasure then we do lincoln we do marie antoinette, right and we're kind of historical you can understand why these are movies while we're showing them. why are you doing? why are you doing trading places? right and it changed the idea for me about what history movies can be. because when you're watching this movie, okay, it's these questions about where society in 1982 1983 when the spoons films being made and being released, right? who is this movie being really released to who's going to see this movie? what does this movie trying to tell us in the early 1980s about capitalism right or about these issues right? because the bad guys the really

wealthy guys right are clearly the evil guys and we're gonna get back at them. but we got to do it by getting rich, right? so what does that tell us and then you watch the verbiage right? the language the jokes are being talked about race about sexual orientation. you can watch these films to see what are people wearing in new york and philadelphia in 19 in the early 1980s. yeah, but it changed the idea that films are moments in times as well. so the thing i might encourage you when you go back and watch a movie, maybe maybe go back and watch your favorite movie right? maybe go watch the next film that comes out right the new spider-man film or this that or the other right? think about these movies as moments and time. it's kind of think about like, what does this thing telling trying to tell us about life in 2022 or 1983 or 1971 right or so forth. so that's always one. i like to talk about that's that's a that's a good that's a great choice. that's a great choice. yeah. i mean, it's it's in sort of

that pantheon of 80s wall street movies, you know, like wall street and you know the wolf wall street, which will come later and all these different films that really explored that era what i what i did like most about trading places was new york had not transitioned yet. mm-hmm. and so, you know fifth avenue all the way down the 10th avenue with pretty seedy places. and and all of this is depicted in the film and you know, so you don't have this sort of glossed wall street upper west side image of new york in that film like you did with some of the others, right? so, yeah, so this is we're gonna take your questions now if you have a question for jason, we have microphones on the aisles at each end. you're welcome to come in line up. we also may have some questions from our folks on zoom. we'll be happy to take those as well.

but yeah, just line up. let's talk movies. let's talk movies. come on. don't be shy christy. can we start with some questions from the chat from our hands start with questions from the chat. go ahead. one of the questions that i think is really relevant to the work we do at jif is can we consider these narrative films as a form of public history whether they're well done or badly done? huh? what do you think? i absolutely think so, right. it's a great question about how we're trying to what is a movie right? and you have to understand like watching a movie is the same thing as reading a book right? it's not just because you're watching the film doesn't mean it's an endorsement of the film you can you can watch it to see what this message is trying to be and then come on to it under your own but absolutely right because we think about these things. what does this message trying to tell us what vantage point is being is being told here who's represented in this film, right? why are people going to watch this movie and not that movie right the movies that we have

that are being told that are being sold to us are being sold to us because large part production companies think those movies will do well at the box office or later on people buy the action figures why why do people want to see this story and because they want to see the story. what does that tell us about the people who are internalizing this information, right? why do people want to go watch star wars what was different about star wars, what was the message being told when you look at it? it was very much a play on older stories. right? what was new and different? why did that bring them? bring such a why did that change filmmaking? right? so absolutely all films. i would say are history films right first and foremost right and when you look at them from different angles you can start to appreciate all the factors in play around their development processing soul being sold and ultimately internalization by the consumer. great question. thank you. you have another one in there.

i do. another question was asking you to comment on films that are based on historical fiction like ragtime that walk the fine line between being true to the author and historical accuracy and how you balance that. hmm. wow. well, it's it's difficult right because i don't want to be the arbiter of telling someone what your art should do, right? so all i can kind of think about maybe when i'm watching this with a class or something like my job is historian is to kind of curate that knowledge say okay. this is what this person is doing. this is what was really going on here. maybe it provides some context behind the history behind that. that's what historians the movies originally was trying to do a lot. it was like get scholars in vicki bynum who wrote the book free state of jones, right? and then the film comes out right? so she tweeted along with say, okay. this is where this differentiated. with the work that i did and this is why there is a line

right because you don't want to make a jfk at least jfk did well, right. so people who made it probably doing great, but ethically right. what's what's it play here. what's what's the morals it play to say the in my selling you something that i know not to be true, right? there's gonna be some dramatic licensing that takes place to tell a story right never would say, what's the line? don't let the facts and get away your story. yeah, right. it's a difficult line down. i think it's the thing where people have got to say this is what i feel comfortable with but it's historians. that's our job. also we do this with books. we read other books say hey, it's where it's wrong. what's what we can do with film as well. and that's not necessarily the point of these things is to say this person got it wrong and on that but say hey, this is what they're doing. but let me tell you another really neat story behind this and this is what you're not seeing here. i think that's maybe the tact to take with it, but other people's opinions. area. yeah, i mean i i i'll jump in here on this one because done consulting on to projects in

recent years, the first one was a historical fiction. good lord, bird about john brown. and you know because it was a work of fiction, you know clearly, you know, the the introduction of the character onion to take us through. i mean, he's a device as much as he's a character and so if you understand that for creatives a lot of times they're going to have to compress people because of time, you know characters get compressed time gets compressed and they're trying to tell this this very powerful story and thing that's interesting to me about the work that was being asked of me on on that in reading the scripts and and giving them some notes. i that dynamic and and realized okay. i'm going to let you slide on this one, but you can't slide on this.

the same thing happened with the film harriet and i was a consultant for harriet and i was sort of an onset consultant as well as having read the script and i there were some characters in there that i was really disturbed by but again, it's a creative license and you have to kind of understand that my job is to make sure that they are no egregious historical errors in this film and and so i was invited to come out on set and there was another glorious historian whose work they they heavily relied on to do that that kelly lemons. casey lemons, i'm sorry relied on to to do that, but i went out to was asked to come out to the set because they were having a really hard time filming a particular scene on plantation. and so i drive out in the middle of nowhere on route 5 where they were filming i won't say which which site it was. and i get out there and there's like oh, i mean, this is like a

major hollywood production. there are you know tractor trailers and catering kind of in his actors and crew and everybody's always and so i they take me over to the to the area to inspect the house. where her owners harriet tubman's owners are and they take me to the slave quarter that they have constructed right and they constructed a porch where they were going to have that porch scene and and all of it was really pretty good. but i walk in the house and i said, why is that silver so tarnished? and like oh, well, you know nobody had time to death i said, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. no, that would be a serious serious violation if their guests coming into the study of the owner of the house and his silver is tarnished. are you kidding me right now? it's like oh, okay. how do we do that? you get some cleaner, you know, and so so a crew member they call a crew member and off they go to do that we get into the slave quarter. and i know it's supposed to be

you know, southeastern, maryland and but there's like beaver pelt and there's all this other stuff in the slave quarter and i was like mmm. no, that's got to go. this has got to go. you can replace it with this and i was giving them options, but then when i got outside with to be filming they were filming a work scene in the fields. and these poor actors most of them it seem like had never picked up a tool in their life. which is why this thing wasn't working. i mean they were they were all over the place and people were in different. you know, they were like in little huddles and they're like hilling the same and i was like, okay. okay. wait wait, no, don't you and and so i literally explained to them. okay if this is supposed to be prep in the fields after harvest and this is what you need to do and so taking them through and the crew came out because the actors aren't supposed to do this, right? i mean, there's crew they're people for this set dressers is what they're called and they

bless their house. we're out there doing all these things that i said about how to get the rose straight how we gonna use the children because they had children like three to five three to six in this film and in that scene. so i i said this is the appropriate work for children that age i literally had to show these actors how to swing a rake and a hoe and put them lines so that i said because you got an over guy over here on a horse who's supposed to be an overseer and if he saw that mess that i just saw everybody's getting beat down right? and so but you know again the larger point here is that they are works. there are creative works first. they are not. it's not a documentary. their creative works first and as long as you remember that when you're watching it, the beautiful thing is if the film sparks you to learn more that that's the best part right when

a film sparks people and they want to learn more about a certain thing. that's great. and you know, so you have these, you know, you have these moments and i think i was trying to think of what what films probably excited the most. a sort of my last question to you actually i'm kind of trying to think of the kinds of films that i remember raising the most questions in people after they saw it like a really popular film. that people were kind of like, oh my god, what about this? so any thoughts. oh, man. i'm trying to there's a few that kind of get like that. there are and a lot of them were some of these were the darker. yeah films that we that we ended up showing because one things i really wanted to be able to do was to talk about dark elements and say in world history are what not. right? so i'm trying to think the one particular film off top of my head right now that i'm thinking

of that dealt with actually church, you know church scandals on children and so forth, which was one. it's speaks that again. which film are you thinking? i thought i heard somebody say something. spotlight, thank you. oh my gosh, i couldn't remember right spotlight. that was a that was a film that people really can't said we need to know more about this right another film that really people came to came to really saying which was a much different relationship was coco. right the audiences that we get with hatm to get the diversity that i want to show in movies a lot of times we have to turn to animated films. to talk about diversity talk about non-whitefaces and cocoa was one of them right?

so there's a way you can talk to predominantly white audiences is what hatm draws. there's lots of folks of color, but it's it's, you know, certainly non-hispanic and so people come and say oh i want to learn more about you know, this culture right? and then these questions are coming. well, what's this have to do with like immigration, right? what does this have to say to us about now? because it's a story about being about distance right? it's not just about generations in the afterlife but very much about the contemporary contemporary world. so that was one that really had a lot with too great. we got some people lined up here at least there's i thought i saw somebody over here. yes, sir. hi. it was interesting because i was going to respond actually to comment that you had made just before the last comment, but then i'll try to draw the things together. we look at things with a different lens a piece of art that appeals to you. i see something very different

in that context. i think the lens of the historian where it really makes a difference would be something like what i would just label authenticity. and that has a place in certain films, but i was really surprised at sort of the denigrating of gone with the wind and some of the other films. that's not how i saw the film at all. and so it it you both touched on this, but i was a little surprised and wonder if i could gain a little balance from the conversation here. and that is the role of allegory in historical fiction. those aren't necessarily designed by the author. i'm a writer they're not necessarily designed to be authentic. that was never necessarily their intent. john. jakes is a beautiful example. you learn an awful lot about the revolutionary war about california about the civil war through john jakes. it may not have been historically accurate, but that doesn't mean that you walk away without gaining a feel. for what the author was trying to do which was to give you a

sense of the experience. people were having during that particular context and i wonder if you might speak to that because it does seem to me that in the broader context especially multidisciplinary. the different lenses that people bring to it is so enriching. that you don't want to just as history shouldn't be overbearing on the negative side because it may not be it may be inauthentic in certain ways. on the other hand, it can serve a very useful purpose in and of itself as you were saying somebody asked i guess about does the film become part of history? and yes, of course, they can absolutely just your thoughts on that. oh, it's a great question and thank you so very much for asking. you know the way i would approach it would be this. because htm draws these audience and if we all go to a movie together, we're all going to come if we try to order a pizza together not five of us are gonna figure out what goes on

it, right? one of the things i like so much about hatm is that wide diversity. so you get like people responding in different ways. so when i talk to other educators usually college educators, right and who want to use film or specifically that our sunday nights and say i want to get our class to tweet along and see what how do i do this, right? the thing i key in on is this it's like, you know, watch the movie see what they take away from the food movie. that's fine and good. well what i really want to do is advise you to have your students watch who's saying what right? what are they taking away from the film right? and you know, it's called historian. it's the movies but everyone is a story of their own lives. everyone's a historian of their own perspective, right? so who's saying what you know, what is the message? what is the message? well, exactly or what what message is being received exactly. absolutely right and then we get to see wait was this an effective film or was this what you know, was this a movie that did some damage or something like that or people taking away

certain messages that maybe limited, right? that's that's a really cool thing to be able to do is to say and again just because you're not a quote unquote historian doesn't mean that your your opinions don't have that of course they do right? you're a human being you have this lived experience based on your time is a as a nurses a mother or father or son daughter, whatever it is that you do, right? is part of this human experience? so, you know, you're you know, your your engagement with this is just as important to say anyone else's so all overstated just slightly, but just because you don't like the wine doesn't mean i don't like the wine right that that's true. that's that's absolutely true. the difference is did you just open your wine bottle and dump it on my clothes? right and and that i think is part of the dynamic with gone with the wind that this is a film that reinforce stereotypes. this is a film that you know, certainly centered white people in the civil war and the the

institution of as a benign thing. um caring for simple black people black women in particular you know. and it was you know, it was actually an interesting thing because clark gable you may or may not know this but clark gable a few years later would do an entirely different film. on the south and about slavery and it was powerful and people were very angry at clark gable for doing that film. i can't think of the name of it right now to save my life, but i saw i've only seen it maybe once but he is you know, he is, you know, sort of the dashing southerner who's you know, really intimate? with his slaves intimate and he realizes he has sort of this come to jesus moment. where he's like of this is wrong.

you know, he's hearing sort of the rhetoric and and he decides to become essentially a spy. i think it was right a spy for the north as he's you know, his slaves are helping him. like, you know it all people he ends up freeing it's really an interesting thing and i got to find i got to find the name of that. i'm sorry. i can't remember somebody out there might know if you know put it in the chat this clark gable movie and it came out like in 1942 1945 something like that. it's really interesting. but yeah, i mean, like i said, it's a gorgeous film. the characters are all memorable. but it reinforces something that that was really harmful, you know, and this and you got to remember this is you know, the movie came out in 1939. um at a time when black americans were desperately trying to get congress to pass anti lynching legislation because violence against black people was happening all over

america with impunity. and so and and so this was you know, this is you talk about film and their backdrop and how they play out over time and like i said, it helped create a whole industry of of southern genteel plantation things. i mean if you think about plantations it's real. i think it's hard for some people to really understand or think about plantations as work camps or concentration camps. despite what your great grandparent may have told you we loved each other. she took care of us. she was my nanny or my mammy or whatever the question i always say back is well what happened to her children? when she was caring for you who was caring for her kids. who is making sure that they were taken care of? how does that play out? and so and those are very difficult kind of things and film plays into that. sometimes it creates those kinds of disconnects, but again wildly popular up until i think avatar or was it avatar that not on the

win off the list as the top grossing film. yeah, just for gross. it's still it's still it's still way up there, right? yeah, but it's yeah, it's really crazy. so we have a couple more we're gonna go back to the zoom folks. well, we will i just wanted to add that our hive mind and zoom believes it is band of angels that you are talking about you. yes, that's exactly right. that's exactly you have some more questions, but we can let the audience here go and then we can band of angels is the name of the clark gable movie. if you want to see what he wanted made to counter gone with the wind. it's not perfect, but it's interesting. yes. sorry a question. i first is if you ever done forrest gump. no, we haven't and that's another problem. i was thinking, you know listening at this and stuff. i mean it seems kind of perfect where he went in went into history and fought, you know a lot of things stereotypes and stuff that we had or whatever in that time frame and stuff. i just thought it'd be an

interesting one because it seems kind of like that would be the conversation i would have on your chat box or whatever looking like, well, you know, that's a great idea. oh forrest gump would definitely is definitely high on the list of films that i want to do just hasn't become available yet. oh and there's certain timelines, you know braveheart is certainly out there. everyone wants to talk about braveheart braveheart's three three and a quarter quarter hours long people people. just can't state awake that long on sunday night. i have to get him gonna work the next day. you know, i'm i cut the limit at two hours but no forrest gump is definitely high on the list. yeah. yeah, that's a that's a that's a great film for something like that because it was lighthearted and fun and now think about this the main character is someone with a disability. how often did we see that? that's put in a hero's role. that would be no. yeah great film going through so many errors. yeah right over here to our stage, right? we have another question. it's not so much a question as a comment and it's a shout out to

jyf i think one of the most brilliant films i have seen in a long time is liberty fever. out at yorktown talk about messaging. and relevance to our mission here. i think it is absolutely brilliant. so thank you kind thank you. i think that's a shout out to cortina films. getting naughty. yeah, cortina films is a experience a movie maker out of northern virginia. i believe cortina has done a lot of these sort of experience theaters and things around but yeah storytelling is key. storytelling is is really key. you for that. yes. so allow me this short intro to my question, which is two of my college professors were very influential to me in. gaining more understanding from historical films and so that leads me to one particular historical film in my mind which

is to you sir or to you madam. do you think that the country perhaps would benefit from say another film? that's built like the film gettysburg 1993 where it shows multiple sides in that case both sides, but potentially even more depending on what we look at at history. would you say that? a film like gettysburg another one. could help benefit people to understand history better. with complicated subjects so thank you. you know when the question was asked earlier about some films that i thought are problematic gettysburg is actually one of them, right and there's a lot that gettysburg does really well really interestingly. that doesn't make that doesn't mean it doesn't have its own warts, right and a lot of that in gettysburg and i haven't seen this film and goodness gracious, but i remember being carded out to watch it in high school and being taught that it was history

right as i listened as a 16 year old boy in a formerly and a border state in kentucky right wax. listen to confederate soldiers wax poetic about how we should have let the slaves go and then just and then just announce our our secession, right? boy, i got problems with gettysburg. i got a lot of problems with gettysburg. um, but do we need more films on civil war absolutely, do we need more films on things that make us uncomfortable? i think we see in the united states right now. we are really wrestling and half for a long time with things that make us uncomfortable and whether or not we can see these films or talk about these things in our classrooms. yeah. i want to see films on the civil war, but i want to see more things that aren't necessarily about battles on the field but battles between people and the institutions that might hold them captive so forth. so certainly something we can always revisit.

thank you. you have follow-up or you good. now you're good. okay, you have a gentleman coming down the aisle over here. yes, sir. yeah. growing up. i had a lot of italian friends and a lot of them were upset, but not all of them with the godfather and i'm surprised you haven't mentioned that but at all. because that certainly showed you know a certain side of a certain community that upset them. but then again it was kind of a amazing series of films one after the other and talking about lynchings. people. don't know that italians were lynched in new orleans. they were accused of a murder or something like that and they would take it out and they were and they were lynched as well. right ethnic communities white ethnic communities european ethnic communities before they kind of transition in the next generation to whiteness often

were italians poles irish, you know could often be deemed the undesirable. right i think i think you're right. you're comment about the godfather is really interesting. i mean it is an iconic bit of filmmaking, right? but it really does just picked. um italian communities in a way not just sort of the don and creating this sort of criminal enterprise, but there's an extraordinary amount of extraordinary amount of violence in those movies and i have to say from a personal perspective. that's part of i love scorsese. i think he's a brilliant filmmaker, but i don't watch many of his movies because they seem like the same movies to me. whether it's you know departed or the gangs of new york or the it's it's playing on the same theme of something that he's trying to about white ethnic communities. but yeah, i mean, what do you think about the godfather? oh, well, i think i want to watch godfather one and two as often as i possibly can.

i love those movies, but i have a completely different relationship to those films that that you do sir, or that your friends do right or they time to communities do and we've actually shown one and two on ha team. we actually did them back to back one like one night which was crazy because it was like six and a half hours of godfather, right? i think what's interesting number three. no, um, but i think that what's what you just said really interesting because you look at godfather insurance shows, you know this this italian crime family and you talk about people coming over and sicilian. i think right coming over and so forth, but i think what's really interesting when you look at godfather from the historical perspective is just as you said, right, what was what were the reactions out of the italian-american communities who were depicted in these films? i know we're very supportive. that's an italian-american community. that's a family. that's our people on screen other. people are like hey, i don't want to be associated with this

violence in this very stereotypical idea of italians being mafia members and so forth, right? so seeing the reaction from those communities, right? i think is you know, this is how you talk take a movie about history and turn it into a historical artifact and say what are people saying about this? so i think that's a really interesting way to talk about it. and yeah. as a guy from kentucky of english and german heritage. i can watch the film in a completely different context because for me, it's art, right? yeah. yeah. sure. yeah. oh, yeah. yes zoom. well and this follows on with the question that was just asked here in the room in terms of thinking about communities representative and film someone asked how do you address contemporary movies which introduce native characters as only props the example they provided was in the book the revenant the main character didn't have a wife or a child but in the movie an indigenous wife and the couple's child are

killed fuelings primary or binge journey. sure, that's a terrific question right and not just for native communities right? but just for like any time we talk about like films and i'm very wary of films that treat people of color of a stereotypical and like when that we see those things happening we talk about why those are we haven't actually shown revenue yet, um for for a couple reasons, first of all, it doesn't quite fit. even though it's a historical, you know historical film. it doesn't fit into that that time spot that we need to film which is about two hours longer two hours or shorter. what i tried to do is make sure that we have a very diverse audience and hopefully we have experts on experts in the field if you will who are tweeting along with us who can kind of counter those narratives whether it's a situation like in the revenant or something else and i try to recruit i can't always say this is a this is one man

operation over here. i can't always recruit people because people's time is worth is worth money. it's it's labor to sit and think about these things if you're an expert if i come to you say, hey, we're gonna do this thing. can you can you tweet along with this man people have families and other things and they might not want to do that. so what i tried to do, especially when i've got a really problematic film like say the revenant or something like that is make sure that i've kind of lined up someone who can really hopefully speak to to that we might see on so that we have a little bit more of an informed audience than hey jason likes movies, and this is my generalist idea of as a historian versus say someone who really understands, you know indigenous culture at in that in that time pack time period or contacts or african-american culture or asian culture or something like that. so that's what i try to do is try to hopefully get featured person to kind of make sure that kind of come along with us that we can kind of help out. any other questions were you? yeah, okay.

is the question for both panelists? is there a specific era or historic event? you think of movie needs to be made about what's going to top of each of your lists? whoo? oh. hmm go ahead. i can go first. go ahead. well, sam from kentucky, so i want to see a film about christian laettner being the worst person ever. i know i've got a mixed audience here. look, we need more stories about native north america in the united states. these stories are are just as important as anything else. there's a rich in fiber history. we need those made by native people as well. so that's what i would say. yeah. listen. i live in florida. i work for the central tribal,

florida. whereas h atm i do it without you know, they're not represented in my thing here. i have such an appreciation for the folks who i get to work with and talk to and would really love to see some films about seminole history, but i would also like to see other films about creek indian history choctaw history and so forth so love to see more indigenous films. i'm out there. um in contemporary life, right? i mean, that's the other i mean history. you know, we we like to have some distance with when we start talking about historic film and things like that, but we don't always need it. but for me personally there is this one little fragment of a story that i absolutely want see made. and and it's about how in the

civil war? the us army legalized prostitution in tennessee and washington dc in an attempt to stem. sexually transmitted disease and because of this work with the women and these this is women kind of pushed back because what they do first when they show up in nashville us army when they show up in nashville and they start realizing that their soldiers as well as their officers are getting a little sick to the point where 10% and this was happening in the confederate army too. they just burned most of their records, right? so we're clear. whenever armies went into urban areas. the soldiers about 10% of the soldiers at a minimum would get sick and were unable to fight. so and when they landed in

nashville in 1862 in july of 1862, they decided they're going to round up all the prostitutes. and put them on a boat. called, idaho i kid you not. and send them to cincinnati. right, idaho. yeah, i know right? that's the name of the that was literally the name of the ship. come on, stay with me people anyway, so they send this ship to sit. they thinking along the river. they want to take these women to cincinnati because there's a hospital in cincinnati and they're like, we'll just dump them off there and then you know and folks in cincinnati is like oh, no, you're not. right, you're not we got our own problems in cincinnati, and then they try louisville and louisville's like oh, no, you're not. we got our own problems. so this ends up being a floating --. because the women are jumping off and men are literally just i mean this plenty documentation men are jumping in the river to

swim to the boat because they have become now a reputation of these women. so to the point where to the frustration of the general they decide okay. just bring them back. and they established the first women's hospital. in the us hospital number nine in nashville to treat women and the surgeon generals and the different doctors were coming and women were talking about how they were protecting themselves against pregnancy and all the other things and the women were saying look we're not the ones transmitting the disease here. and as they started, you know calculating it they realized that the men. were infecting the women because the women would pay to be licensed and that license enabled them to be checked out monthly to make sure they were healthy. so the women were contracting from men? and so what they end up doing is that it literally changes the whole day it cut stds during the civil war this experiment in

those areas cut stds in the civil war by 90% and it then ends up by the time we get into later wars where prophylactics are used to help prevent war. they take the young men and teach them how to protect them. right, so and it starts in the civil war and i know that that sounds really salacious, but it's all true. and and that's the movie that's in my head. nobody else gets to make it. that is my retirement thing. i am gonna make i'm gonna write the script for this movie and somebody's gonna buy it from me and and if you if you do, right. anyway, that would be one of the movies because i think we don't see enough movies about women and empowered women, especially in the past. they're always especially around war. they're always the weepy wife waiting at home holding down the fort she might fire a rifle every now and then and she's keeping the kids and she's working in the pharmacy.

but you know, she's making the socks and she's you know, but we never see women in this way. right and that to me, i would love to see women portrayed in those ways. i would i just would. i think it would be a lot of fun and a really telling telling opportunity so we have about five minutes left. we have one. we have a question here, and i think there was one more or two more on the zoom that we will take. yes, sir. i don't know after iowa. i got nothing for you. i wanted to ask it this question is for for both y'all. it's more. actually, i got two questions, but it's more for perspective. um back in the 60s with william shatner star trek series, right? um back in the 60s captain kirk was he was like making out with

lieutenant sulu with aliens back in the 60s, right? what's your what's your thought about that? okay, you're asking the wrong person because i mean trek the original series. the next generation voyager. i am that nerdy person. okay. so the original series did it for me? and you why because of ahura? i mean this was whenever we went out there the first verse voice the universe heard was a black woman. do you know what that does for little girl? and i you know, when it first came on i was not even born but again that saturday morning while i'm watching buckwheat. i'm also watching star trek. and and it was just amazing to me that the first voice the universe heard from earth was from a black woman and that was powerful and and as an adult, i

learned that michelle nichols almost quit the show because she was getting some really funky mail from some folks and it was dr. king who told her you got to stay. when is the last time we've seen anything like this that not only had a black woman we had an alien on the ship. we had a russian on the ship. we had a i mean it was we had a scotsman. i mean everybody was on this ship yeah, no in the 60s. yeah, and the 60 right amazing, i think. very believed in us and i don't think we've seen films or television that has that we've become increasingly cynical and even though they dealt with some pretty heavy topics in the three years that they were on the air. i told you i'm a nerd about this stuff for the years that they were on i mean they did tackle some pretty dark stuff. i mean i loved the episode where they had the guys that were

painted one side black one side white and they looked the same to everybody else, but for them that difference and if it was the white on the left or the right side of their face led them to war and so there were these really powerful moments. but yeah star truck for me. brought about my love of science fiction and superhero kind of things from an early age and it kind of made me a nerd about that on those things. yeah, me too, but i won't admit it. oops. oh, i just no shame. no shame. okay, my next question. that was very that's a good answer. that's kind of where my head was. my next question is it's more satire shock value kind of movie mel brooks blazing saddles. that you take that we came dangerously close to showing that once on htm and i'm gonna

get it on there. um, look you talk about star trek or blazing saddles. it's it's the artist choice as i create these movies, right? and what does artist trying to say? roddenberry is trying to paint this picture. he's trying to push american society global society towards this idea like, oh look, we're all here. we're on the same ship literally, right? brooks got something else to say right and he's using a completely different tone to do so, and i think that well, we haven't seen that kind of tone. in a while, so i'm i'm anxious to do that on hatm sometime to i'd be interested to see what the younger audiences have to say when confronted with some of the verbiage. yeah you there's if you ever do that movie with your with your with your people, i would love to be there. twitter thank you. yep, great. well we have okay, actually, i'm off a little bit we have about two minutes and then we have to

wrap it up. anybody else have questions or we could oh i tell you our alex on zoom are like rolling. okay, they have been okay, two last questions one and this is actually a good follow-up to the question. we just had do historical television shows have a different role than movies here. do historical television shows have a different role than move than historical movies the historical movies. they have more time to tell the story. that's the biggest difference to me. i mean they just have more time so you can get into sort of nuance that you can't get in a two-hour or two and a half hour film. i can't imagine i mean if you i guess if you really wanted to they could have had a series of the titanic, but it was sure a heck of a lot, you know better to sit through that and just experience it in real time, right? um, there's one series that has become really popular on

netflix. that folks were having a fit about in terms of its historic stuff. it's the empire period 1830s and that's bridgerton based on the books bridgeton and the thing that was freaking people out as all these color and empire, england. and people getting married and the queen charlotte being depicted as a woman of color. you know, which she kind of was? um, but you know, so that's really interesting and it's the season two. i just happen to be on twitter this afternoon season two images dropped and so the comments are really more directed people are going to watch it. it's going to be another huge hit as the first season was, you know, shonda rhimes the creator showrunner, as you know has been able to just kind of do her thing and she she's another she's a great storyteller. is she historically accurate far from it, but there are certain authentic elements to the to the

gentleman's point earlier. there's certain authentic elements to it. but is it historically accurate now? but that's not the point is it? it's about the bridger tents and those great books. that's one of the things that i do worry about with hollywood and television. i will say this. this is one of the things that i've been worried about and more recent years many of the major studios in particular because there's such a risk in making film is that they are purchasing. already popular or developed intellectual property so that's why you're seeing so many things being made that are based on books. even if the books weren't they good if they were popular and they showed that they had a energy and they're sort of a bible there to it. then. those are the things that tend to get most of the green lights now because it's such a risk to create new stuff and i think that that potentially is a problem.

in that creative sphere but i digress. the last word sir. oh, i think you know absolutely right. i think what we've seen over the last with especially see streaming services have come along and really kind of legitimized these cereals now we've seen this rise now these serial films like you were saying you can tell these longer more developed stories another that like the yellowstone and it's spin off 1883 especially for historical context would be one i'm gonna go downton abbey. oh, right. i was introduced to downton abbey. i'm not gonna watch that shot. oh my gosh. i binged out. i've seen it four times. right. i can't get enough of it. i'm waiting for the new movie. so they have the ability to really draw you in as well. especially now that audiences i think the way that we go to movies now is are changing to because we can pipe those new movies and new series into your

home and the production values on serial films on these on television shows are so much higher now than they used to that people will are accepting of them and especially because you can watch them now at your own leisure, no one sits down at 8pm to watch the show anymore. we watch it when we can where we can and so we can make so now these longer shows like bridgerton like 1883 like downton abbey now, you can really invest 10 hours into this show because you've got time for it. so also powerful tools for tell. yep. well everybody. thank you so much for joining us and i hope that you will join me in thanking jason for a fabulous conversation. chuck klosterman's latest book the 90s looks back at the social political and technological happenings of the decade marked by the growth of the internet. here's a portion of his recent program discussing the book, you

know, i think it's funny i'm promoting this book on the 90s. so i'm thinking about the 90s. i just wrote this book on the nineties a year or whatever but during the pandemic. i was constantly thinking about these 90s principles and the idea of selling out which is something i haven't really thought about it, you know. over a decade in any kind of real way. i was thinking about it all the time again, and now when i promote this book and that's what i'm doing right now. i mean, you know, i enjoy doing this but this is a promotional thing. i'm trying to sell this book. i feel incredibly embarrassed by it and i have this desire to sort of undercut the book at every possibility because i'm back in this mindset that there is something like i really desperate and and kind of artistically unsophisticated about trying to do something that people just like that you just giving people something they like even though that's the whole idea like, why am i here? why am i doing this if i don't

want people to buy this book and i have to admit part of me wants to try to convince you not to because somehow i think it would make the book better. it makes no sense at all. i've still been kind of messed up by what happened in the 90s. and you can watch the full program anytime. line at c-span.org slash history by searching or the 90s i'm the john f. kennedy under fives, antoinette antonio and i'm janice hodgson. i'm the museum curator here for the librarian museum. i'm alan price director here at the librarian museum, and we're delighted to welcome you to a virtual tour of first children caroline and john jr. in the white house. welcome. i hope you'll you'll enjoy it with us.