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in 2003 philosopher and author and linguist first appeared on this program and we've invited him back to take your calls and talk with you one more time. since 2003 he's written dozens of books and one of those books was consequences of capitalism. from 2021 talking about one of the more recent books. >> from the major bowling agency and gives people a choice of the serious problems and asked them to rank them in terms of urgency. the very last one at the bottom

was global warming. it became a problem to enrich people. november 4th they might use it togh help others. it's not that the people that say that believe it. it starts with the bubble they are contained and at the tv station, fox news. when you are stuck in that bubble that's what you believe.

all of these were signs of the collapse not only of the arena but general social collapse. the social order is collapsing. it didn't just happen by itself. it happened because of the plague that was set in motion years ago and we discuss it in the book. it was started in the 70s. if you look at the prescriptions it is obvious what's going to

happen. decisions have to be taken out of the hands of government. they are unaccountable to the public and to government that is accountable toia the public and can be controlled somewhat. corporate is a gift from the

public. there's plenty of advantages that come from incorporating but it doesn't have any responsibility just to themselves. they put these two things together and decisions over to those that have no responsibility other than to enrich themselves and the statute comes along and says there's no society, just individuals somehow managing on the market they are supposed to provide in. the first step they took was they destroyed any possible offense against this assault. the first steps first were to attackco labor unions with illel measures. it opened the door to corporations to do the same.

but all this together and they have to be genius to figure out what's going to happen. 40 years later it was by the corporation. to estimate the transfer of wealth, the transfer of wealth from the lower 90% of the population to the middle-class and working-class to the very top that turns out to be b a fraction of 1%. their estimate was about $50 trillion so a vast underestimate.

when reagan came in he opened up to businesses to do whatever they like. tax havens had been illegal and blocked by the treasury department. probably another tens of trillions, changed the rules on corporate management allowing ceos to be compensated with stock options instead of salaries. if it means anything you can do to raise the stock like buyback stocks. they ruined the corporation but good for you. that was the result. also those executives were permitted to pick their own board that would determine their salary. what do you think is going to

happen? ceos have salaries skyrocketing carrying management with them. universities, hospital presidents, so on. meanwhile the majority of the population gets to buy from payday to payday. it's a major assault on the population and it's happening all over the world. australia, europe, obviously in the united states. the effect of that is people are angry, disillusioned, resentful. very easy prey to demagogues [inaudible] and distrust for everything. why should we believe with the center of disease control says about the pandemic?

probably run by crooks in washington. i don't believe anything they say. so the breakdown of the social order is happening very much all over theuc world. >> live from hisho home in tucs, arizona where he is a professor at the university of arizona, noam chomsky. what issues, what's on your mind these days? >> there are lots of things going on in the world right now. 1 of the major ones of course is that war in ukraine and many others and background issues. we are, like it or not, the species is raising two imminent disaster. there are two huge problems.

1 is the growing threat of nuclear war which would basically end modern civilization as we know it. the other is the destruction of the environment. we know it has to be done. we are not doing it and we don't turn that corner pretty soon,ore will reach your reversible tipping points and it will be a matter of slow moves towards catastrophe. that in addition to what is right on the front pages. so there's plenty to be on everyone's mind. >> host: you've been active for decades on nuclear war, economic policy, social justice. what's the progress you think you've made or that the world

made? >> there hasas been over long periods there has been progress. we happened to have been for the past 40 years in a period of serious regression. but there are ups and downs before if you think back to what the society was say 196060 years ago this was a society in which we had laws that were so extreme that the nazis refused to accept

them. the rights of women were still not recognized. it w wasn't until 1975 that womn notify guaranteed legal right to serve on federal juries to be regarded and the british common law the country took over in many respects the rights were not respected. all that'san changed. it's an improvement beginning in the late 1970s there was a

shift towards the neoliberal system that has been quite harsh for the general population here and across the world with an enormous concentration of wealth in existence for many despite the feelings of anger, resentment, contempt for institutions that can take positive forms. let's have changes for the better. and there are such governments that can take very dangerous forms. i'm old enough to remember 90

years ago there was is today very serious threat of deep depression much worse than anything today. my extended familyw was first immigrated, first generation immigrants working-class. there were two ways out of the depression. 1 was taken by the united states. the u.s. led the way towards a social democratic revival committed by the revived militant labor movement organizing the labor tactics that led the way to the new deal

measures that pioneered the social democracy. that was one way out. the other way out was what happened in europe, sank to the depths. those were the ways out. theree are some residents today that would be rather ironic if the united states continues to unravel and moves towards the kind of fascism while europe hangs onto the trends of the social democracyia that have resisted the neoliberal assault

and perhaps revise these positive tendencies. it doesn't have to. the choice is in our hands. they are eminent problems. the war in ukraine. it's not the only one. millions of people are facing starvation in afghanistan. millions of people facing eminent starvation, people who have a little bit of money can't go to the markets where there is food to buy food for the starving children because the banks are shut and they don't have access to the money. where is the money? in new york banks. the u.s. refuses to release to

the people of afghanistan their own money. banks are supposed to be fiduciary institutions. you place your money in them with the assurance that it's yours to obtain when you needed. not in this case. the u.s. government has stepped in not just in this case but others to block people from getting their money. there is a pretext for this. the pretext is we have to assure the victims of 9/11 have a right to compensation from afghans who had nothing to do with 9/11. people of afghanistan who were starving had nothing at all to do with 9/11.

in fact those with good memories will recall the taliban offered total surrender richmond handing over to the united states the suspects in the 9/11 attacks and remember at the time they were suspects the fbi informed the press later that they suspected them but didn't have definitive evidence. but they offered to turn them over into the u.s. reaction was we do not do surrenders. from bush, rumsfeld, sorry, but effectively george bush.

now the afghan people have to starve to death and there are other things happening in the world. there seems to be an agreement for the reduction of fighting in yemen. the first humanitarian disaster in the world according to the united nations. the main force responsible for the disaster along with of the united arab emirates, saudi arabia had been blockading in fact intensifying its blockade of the only port oil can be

imported. the official death toll last year was 370,000 people but the actual death toll is unknown and the united nations warns that hundreds of thousands of children are facing eminent starvation. victor forces cannot function without u.s. equipment, u.s. intelligence, u.s. training reports assisted by the lesser level a few others but the u.s. is in the lead. these are things we can change things that should be uppermost in our minds. what can we do about suffering,

misery, major problems in the world whether it's existential problems that threaten the existence of the species like global warming and nuclear war or whether it's the terrible miserable suffering of the people of ukraine under brutal violent aggression by the russian army or people starving in afghanistan or yemen and other things but what can we do about all those things, that's what we have to be asking ourselves and that's what should be on everyone's mind. >> host: this is your chance to talk if you have been interested in public policy for the last 50, 60 years, chances are you've heard of him. perhaps even read some of his

hundreds of books. numbers are on the screen (202)748-8200 for those of you in the east and central time zones. 748-8201 if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones. you can also send a text message. include your first name and your city. (202)748-8903 for text messages only. we also have several social media ways of getting a hold of us. wef will scroll through those on the screen. i want to quote you from one of the more recent books requiem for the american dream and you say some of the problems of governments in the u.s. today stem from an excess of democracy. why do you say that? >> guest: actually, i didn't say that. i quoted and the quote is from a very important study about 40

years ago, 50 years ago 1975. it's the first study of the trilateral commission. the trilateral commission is an international commission of liberal internationalists. you get a rough idea of their political sentences by the fact that the carter administration was drawn almost completely from the ranks so the group of people in the united states, the counterparts in europe and japan, internationalists of the trilateral commission, they came out with a very important report called the crisis of democracy. theyey are responding to the activism of the 1960s which

considerably civilized society and led to the developments i mentioned briefly before. the trilateral commission warned that there's a crisis of democracy. the crisis is what you quoted, in excess of democracy. there's too much democracy. what's happening and is described in the 60s is that segments of the population that are supposed to be passive and obedient began to try to enter the political arena to press their own demands. these are often called special interests. young people, old people, working people, women, farmers,

minorities. these people are not supposed to be making noises in the political arena. they are supposed to be quiet, obedient, empathetic and show up every couple of years to push a button and then go home and let them decide what to do. that excess of democracy is putting too much of a burden on the state so we must have what they call moderation and democracy. people should return to the obedience into the also talk about particular sectors of society like the universities.

the universities and the churches are not doing their job of indoctrination, their phrase, not mine. we havewe to do better indoctrination so they are not out there in the streets protestingth the vietnam war, calling forl civil rights for women's rights and other things. inpo response to the activism of the 60s it's the powell administration that was meant the man richard nixon appointed him toix the supreme court a little bit later.

powell issued a memorandum to the chamberm of commerce, to te business world and it was similar to the trilateral report but much harsher than the document was intended. it is surfaced pretty soon so it's available publicly and was then. it urged the business community to take up a forceful reaction to the attack on business that wasth going on in the 60s and ie rate of profit is declining. we are under attack. the universities have been taken over by radicals who nobody ever

almost heard of. the business world is under attack by ralph nader who is demanding that car automobiles have safety measures built in and moving for consumer rates and safety and other demands so the business world can't tolerate all these attacks and he went on too say look, we have the resources, we have the money.y, we can fight back. we can refuse to accept this attack on our power and privilege and that resonated and was a part of the background that led to the reaction that i was quoted in the early remarks program began roughly

50 trillion-dollar middle-class and working-class that's taken place in the past 40 years since it started in the late carter years and escalated under reagan and britain manufacturer and spread around the world under u.s. power and which were imposed by the imf which under the u.s. combination had a oudevastating effect more than i can talk about now but that was the phrase from the trilateral commission report which i did write about when it appeared. but those two documents set a

kind of ideological framework. 1 from the liberal internationalists and another from the right wing. they set the frame in the coming years the neoliberal programs were developed and imposed. we've been living under that is sold for 40 years. others harsher effects in other countries. what happened in the late 70s there wass pretty high inflation in the united states.

the carter administration responded to it with a short rise in interest rates which increased under the reagan years. during the 1970s, countries like mexico and other countries in the south had been urged by the world bank, u.s. run world bank. they had been urged to take out extensive loans mostly from u.s. banks, citibank, citigroup. many others and they were deeply in debt when the high interest rates were introduced the debt was linked to u.s. interest rates. they were in deep trouble.

they couldn't pay and began to default and had to take loans from the international monetary fund that imposed harsh conditionality's. they had to cut back social spending, cutt back development. other similar measures that devastated the populations. yugoslavia had been more or less a functioning country and fell apart under the impact of the programs that intensified and in effect conflict leads the background for what took place

in the '90s. there had already been significant conflict between. it's basically the same conflict but my friend and i had written about in the 1970s. the 1980s rwanda like others were hit very hard by the structural adjustment programs and the society that was already very fragile collapsed with the conflicts that existed were intensified. that is part of the background but these developments that took place a few years later in the 1990s actions have consequences. maybe you don't anticipate them,

but you showed. that was the third and then the rich countries like the united states it's pretty much what was described. that's part of the neoliberal reaction of the regimented capitalism, state capitalism based on the new deal measures but it's worth remembering how far we've moved from those days. dwight eisenhower the last conservative president in the traditional sense of the word conservative. eisenhower if you read his statements sounds like a radical today. he said any person who doesn't accept new deal measures, the

measures of social welfare developed in the new deal in the continued in following years, anyonene who doesn't accept the measures doesn't even belong in our political system. that's eisenhower. anyone who denies working people the right to unionize, such a person doesn't belong in our political system. that was the 1950s that continued c for some years into the 60s. then we get into the reaction that escalated under reagan and compared eisenhower with what we hear today from the remnants of life remains in the party that he represented. it's quite a change and tells us about the regression.

>> let's get some of the calls involved and begin with barbara in massachusetts. please go ahead and ask your question. >> thank you for your amazing career. continuing with president eisenhower and his famous statement about the emergence of the military industrial complex. we've all watched decades of grotesque spendingng on weapons but now we see this conflict in ukraine where chinese munitions like stingers and javelins and switchblade drones and other kinds of drones, these tiny micro weapons are able to take out the macro weapons of the tanks and the jet fighters and

the naval ships. what do you make of this transition to micro warfare and its implications? >> it is a new era of warfare which is more dangerous, more threatening to everyone but let me ask a slightly different question. i mentioned before that we should be concerned constantly with what we can do and not what we should do. 1 thing we can do is send weapons. there is an argument for that. ukraine is under foreign attack from a brutal military force.

do we want to escalate the war, more destruction, or do we want to move towards a more peaceful negotiated a settlement, one of the most respected individuals in the u.s. diplomatic corps. the ambassador highly respected individual with a record. a couple of days ago he came out on an interview anna said u.s. policy seems to be to fight the russians to the last ukrainians. that's the policy. we formulated no feasible goals that can lead to an exit from

this tragedy so we can keep doing that. more ukrainians will die and it goes nowhere. it just distorts further escalation. is there a possible diplomatic settlement? yes there is. freeman outlined it once again and everyone knows what it is. the settlement this has been going on for 30 years i should say. not just started today. it is a neutralized ukraine not part of a military block and an internal settlement that will guarantee the rights of the

russian-speaking minority provided probably some form of a solution like switzerland and others which the minority groups have a degree of autonomy in their own regions formulated in an agreement. -to some version of that has to be the possible outcome and as freeman again stressed, if we don't want to just flight to the last ukrainians, we have to offer a vladimir putin an escape hatch. he has to have some way to escape from this without what amounts to suicide. if we tell him or send the current message you're going to face war crimes trials, there's

nothing you can do about it. sanctions will continue no matter what happens. we are telling him fight onto the last ukrainian. that might sound a little winston churchill impersonation, sounds very heroic but for the ukrainians it's it warrant. we have to c come out with a proposal and support the aproposals that are on the tabe have been for a long time for a settlement that offers putin some kind of family escape. like it or not, that's a necessity and b it will have toe based on the neutralization of ukraine and some kind of

diplomatic arrangement for the degree of autonomy for the russian oriented areas. those things are on the table. the u.s. has an official policy. unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been reported to the united states press. at least i can't find it, but the policy is there. you can read it in the government documents. i've quoted it repeatedly in the things i've been writing into ae policy was set in september, 2021. september 1, 2021. there was a joint statement of the u.s. and ukraine. this is a couple of months before the russian invasion. the document is basically a policy statement of the united states reiterating and

amplifying the policy that had been in effect for many years. at first says the door to ukrainian entry into nato is wide open. we are inviting you to join nato. it says the united states will intensify the sending of the advanced military weapons to ukraine. it will continue with joint military efforts. it means the u.s. ukraine military operations. all of this placing weapons within ukraine. all of this is part of the enhanced nato admissions program. i should look at the exact

wording. i'm paraphrasing it but it's roughly that. that is a call and it didn't just start then. it's been going on for 28 years. looking back to george hw bush administration, the first president bush in 1990 and 1991 soviet union was collapsing. there were intensive discussions which george bush and james baker secretary of state, his russian counterpart mikhail gorbachev, the germans we were very extensively involved in

this. the question is what would be the shape of the post cold world collapsing and there were several visions. gorbachev's vision is what he called a common european home from the atlantic, from lisbon. no military blocks, common european home, mutual accommodation. this was an extension of a program of charles de gaulle in the following years but recently has been pressing something similar from the atlantic and in

a peaceful system with no military block. the other one goes back 50 or 60 years is the u.s. invasion called atlantis based on the atlantic alliance and nato and europe, which the u.s. controls. it's a deep issue in world affairs. it goes back to the end of the second world war two where you would be subordinated to the united states within the nato framework. or will it move towards the european home on the lines of the proposals in 1990.

there was i no interest but it d have a compromise for and that is whated was agreed in the unid states. gorbachev and russia, nato, germany would be unified and would join nato, which is quite a concession on the part of the russians recalling their history. germany alone had practically destroyed russia several times in the past half-century to allow the unified germany to join the hostile military alliance and it wasn't a small step. gorbachev agreed on a condition.

the condition was that nato wouldn't move 1 inch to the east beyond germany. and in fact they wouldn't even go to w east germany. that was the condition. there is a record, and authoritative record of the official documents. no ambiguity. they adhered to it. clinton came inme a couple of years later.

by 1994 with his eye on domestic politics and minority groups, polish voters and so on. clinton agreed and invited to several east european countries to join nato. very close to clinton and intervened to have him elected in 1996. so did every russian leader. u.s. statesman george cannon.

there were numerous others, henry kissinger, and numerous others. periods of the current cio director william burns and former cia director turner. they were so outraged he practically resigned in protest and 50 specialists. you are calling on russia to be aggressive instead of

culminating in a european home. it was vetoed by germany and france but remains on the table. it wouldn't send russian specialists and so on. there were some definite redlines that no russian leader tolerate. on the geostrategic heartland

joining the military alliance they would never accept that. it's the states that explicitly we will go ahead. if you could imagine what that's like from the russian point of view understood by high-level u.s. statesman as i mentioned if mexico were to join a chinese run military alliance. .. the chinese run military

alliance to carry out the military operations with the people's liberation army with advanced weaponry from chinese military experts placements on the border. nobodyrs bothers to say that. it's perfectly well understood.

the u.s.u. official policy on ukraine and russia. the russian aggression which is the kind of crime that ranks the u.s. invasion of iraq, the hitler stalin invasion. the supreme international crime of aggression. nothing justifies that. to understand is important if we care about ukrainians and even if we care about world peace and

a major conflict with u.s. and nato and ao terminal nuclear w. so we should try to understand and again recognizing that understanding isn't justified. the people he mentioned like george cannon and henry kissinger and perry, william burns, the director and many -others wouldn't be justifying the russian aggression when they explained the background and which we play a role and continue to play a role by not joining today and offering and developing diplomatic options supporting those that are already on the table.

that was his point as long as the position war crimes trials, permanent sanctions, no way out for you. we are going to fight you to the last ukrainian. that's not something we should be doing. we should be moving towards peace. we spent a lot of time talking about the kind of weapons we can provide. the real thing we should be talking about is how can we move towards a peaceful settlement. joining us as noam chomsky since

the first appearance on the of e program has written dozens more books. the next call for him comes from tom's river new jersey. i'm a great admirer of yours and it's a pleasure to even speak with you. i wondered about your thoughts and any optimism about the location that was unionized and now the warehouse in staten island is unionizing if you see any of that having an affect and emboldening the people throughout the country to start unionizing so that they can take

the power into their own hands. >> let's get a response in case you didn't understand, talking about amazon unionizing and if you think that is a good sign and your other thoughts about those types of issues. >> labor has been under attack throughout this whole new liberal period. you may recall that the first action was to attack unions using what were internationally regarded as illegal. margaret thatcher carrying out the same programs opened up her programs the same way. major attackg on unions. that opened the door to private corporations saying we can do it

to and using other internationally banned methods. the laws were changed making it much harder. there is a national labor relations board that is to protect workers rights that was defunded and barely functions. bill clinton came along and there was another attack. they were bitterly attacked by the movement and they were in favor of an agreement but this one. they came forth with a proposal for the north american free trade agreement which would from

the high wages and high growth eand they were sickened by the office of technology assessment. congress is research bureau that hasde been disbanded. it existed then and they came out with a proposal very similar to the labor movement proposal and efforts to build a high growth high wage trade system. clinton went through with the corporate based system and low wage and low growth but great for profits. that was later extended to the wto agreements that have the same properties.

it's a bitter attack on the labor movement and in fact we have someme evidence about how great innotech it was a couple of years after nafta a study was undertaken and undertook a study of the effect on union organizing and it turns out that the affect was developed the

strike breaking. there are major industries working on what used to be called scientific methods. lots of techniques but it doesn't matter if you have a criminal state it doesn't enforce the law. the effectiveness over the years has been a sharp decline in the labor move. this is happening at the time that workers want to unionize. you look at the worker's preferences and the majority want to be in unions but they

declineon every year. again, last year under attack from a state corporate program of attacking. that's what it amounts to. going back to the amazon strike, it is a dramatic break from that despite the enormous advantages the corporate business system has been given by state criminality which is what it is despite the enormous advantages of amazon workers in staten island that manage. they will be immediately under attack by the kind of means i've described but it's a small victory. there were a couple of others.

there are small signs of revival. it started in the nonunionized areas in red to states like my state in w arizona, west virgina that began with teachers who began to strike not just for higher wages but better conditions for children. part of the programs has been to defund education to try to destroy the public education system. under the trump years we had a secretary of education who was openly committed to destroying the public education system. public education is one of the great achievements of american

democracy. back in the early 20th century the united states pioneered and led the world in developing public education and an enormous contribution. it's an american achievement at the t university level. the grants for universities unfortunately taking away native american land wasn't pretty but they enabled the establishment of the major universities. mit, where i taught all my life was a land grant university.

that was an enormous contribution. it's been under sharp attack and i quoted the crisis of democracy calling for more indoctrination of the youth under attack in the system. there was alsols defunding, funding for state colleges and universities has declined and also at the k-12 level all part of the effort to destroy one of the major contributions in the united states towards democracy and public welfare and it's still continuing. will teachers begin to strike in the red states, west virginia, arizona,al calling for better funding for schools so a teacher doesn't have to sit in front of the kids unable to teach because

there's no resources and no possibility. teachers were fighting not justl for better salaries, which they deserve, but for better conditions for children and schools. they got a lot of support. i happen to be living in arizona right now. calling for more funding from the schools the republican olegislature will do it. this is a major growth of labor organizing that has extended the

major labor movement. not enormous statistically speaking. of the national labor relations board has to be reconstituted so that it carries out its legal responsibilities of defending workers from the illegal attacks that devastated the labor movement. the bidenn administration has been trying to do it i but it's been blocked by 100% rocksolid republican opposition the

appointment that was proved labor was blocked. the worst repression in american history that crushed the labor movement. there was almost nothing left in the early 1930s in the wake of the depression. cio organizing and the labor

actions under that impetus it was a sympathetic administration with the measures that have greatly improved the lives of americans enormously to the postwar social democratic movements. amazon victory is a striking example but it's going to be a long haul. the attack on labor continues relentless, bitter. we have about an hour left with

our guest this afternoon and we are going to continue to take your calls. he's appeared on c-span 28 times. national reputation reallysp spring forth in 1967 when he wrote a responsibility of the intellectual essay in the review of books and it was in 1989 that he gave the lecture in modern society. here is a portion. the necessary illusion the title is intended to be paradoxical. there is a standard view about this matter.

it is expressed for example by supreme court justice who speaks of the societal purpose of the first amendment that is enabling theo public to a certain meaningful control he happens to be speaking about the media and the crucial role affecting this purpose. the remarks could and should be made about the educational system and publishing and about intellectualal life generally. but the media are particularly important in providing access to information and opinion and therefore allowing the democratic process to function in a meaningful way. so the media therefore fulfill what "the new york times" on sunday called the traditional jeffersonian role as a counterbalance and this one takes jefferson seriously as he may or may not have taken

himself. he would presumably have gone further speaking not just of the counterbalancing power but other concentrations of power specifically the kinds that are developed and that period which is the dominant feature. all of this seems obvious and even chronological but it's worth bearing in mind that there is a contrary view and it probably is the dominant view of the liberal democratic theorists. it goes back to the origins of the modern democracy of the revolutions of the 17th century. at that time great concern was expressed over the popular agitators creatures and workers with their littleng printing presses and public speeches

which werere removing the cloakf mystery behind which they were carrying out the narrow struggle that he read about in the history book. now these people were in their words they were t people who wanted to be represented by men of their own kind and know the sort and observing their activities, revealing the will make power they the people so curious and arrogant that theynd will never find humility enough which is a big problem. after they had been crushed, john locke wrote they must be

told what to believe. these concerns arose once again during the revolution as they typically do during the popular revolutions and it wasn't until the radical democrats and the resolution were crushed and if there were no more thoughts people would be represented by people at that time who know they would be represented by those qualified. this follows the principle laid down by the founding fathers that those who own the country.

this comes back to the present and express the same views. the foreign policy analysts he explained the words rationality belongs but because of the stupidity of the average man, he follows not reason but faith is this relies upon the necessary illusion. it relies upon the necessary illusion and oversimplifications which has to be provided by the observers, folks like us that know how to serve power. they talked about the manufacturer of the consent that

has become a self-conscious art and regular popular government in a revolution in the practice of democracy and it is a large publicy opinion. the same concerns explain a good deal of the fear of radical movementss abroad for the early 19th century was deeply concerned aboutt the contagion f the revolutionary ideas coming from american democracy which might undermine the conservative world order that they were y presiding over and the roles were reversed with the same ideas expressed at the time when woodrow wilson sent troops with

the secretary of state a century earlier warned they were quoting feelings of the proletarians of all countries to the ignorant who by their very numbers are urged to become masters. the same ideas appear explicitly in the public relations industry. the saint of the modern relations industry and the commission that he was a member of and he later developed the concept of what he called the essence of democracy and something he practiced in demonizing the democratic capitalist government of guatemala when he was working for the company in the early

1950s. the publicat relations industry described the task as controlling the public mind and educating the american people to ensure a favorable climate for business and the proper understanding of the common interest. it is the only serious danger confronting the company that was commented about 80 years ago and those problems have been addressed ever since. there's also an academic twist to all of this. the theme in the social sciences, one of the leading american political scientists a major figure in the communications wrote ang interesting commentary in the

international encyclopedia of science is the entry under propaganda. those were more honest days. he wrote an entry in the propaganda which he explained we must not succumb to the democratic mending daily common being the best judges of their own interest. thent judges are the elites that must ensure the means to impose their will for the common good. the means he said are a technique of control largely through propaganda and its necessary to do that because of the superstition of the masses and explained why it's important for democracy. it's not the case you might think of the indoctrination inconsistent rather as a whole line is the essence of democracy. the point is well reviewed

allstate or what we would now call the totalitarian state it doesn't matter what people think because you can control what they do. buthe when the state can't contl people by force and the voice of the people canve be heard it may make people so curious and arrogant they don't have the ability to submit and you have to control what people think for their own good to ensure they don't get out of control. that was noam chomsky in 1989. 1 of 28 appearances. but he has made on c-span over the years. he joins us now from his home in tucson arizona. the next call for him is from

michael in miami. please go ahead and asksk your question.er >> yes, hello. and thank you for your humanity and scholarship. if you answer, yes, i believe the reason you're doing so is because in the south, and i'm calling you from broward county which is probably the school district that is under the most attack by a governor and a lot of the forces you've described. ..

>> period unfortunately andte anti- vaccination movement in the united states and it is refusing vaccination those policies advised by serious healthth officials and elsewhere

which is seriously prolonging the significant crisis 1 million americans have already died the hospitals are overflowing with mostly and vaccinated patients so of course the pool for more mutations be have the means not to eradicate but greatly control and diminish the harm caused by the coronavirus infections and also to prevent or at least limit which could

be much more harmful. because then there will be more suffering. and those that literally had to suspend normal operations because of the overflow of the largely and vaccinated patients who are filling up the covid wards. i experienced that myself. it is a major problem and it is a lot to do that others want to say about this. it is critically important to get vaccination advanced in

the larger regions of the world which has not had access were limited access to the rich countries europe and the united states intended to monopolize and then taken some steps to try to break through the monopolization with those wto rules with the free-trade agreements and with extreme

protectionist measures to ensure very high profits pharmaceutical corporations with the magan media corporations that allow them to weigh overcharge to make extraordinary profits in the case of the pharmaceutical industry with research and development including download during the vaccine. but it was mislabeled the free-trade agreement enables them to basically have monopoly pricing while the germans are even more adamant to protect this. but the effect has been

through large parts of the world of the vaccines that, they need, this is a threat to us as well. not just to them. but it is a large full of and vaccinated people to provide the opportunities to mutate and nobody knows when it might be. and with those variance have appeared over the years have either been highly lethal but not very contagious like ebola or highly contagious but not very lethal with the latest period you cannot guarantee that would continue.ac but the point is the question is what can we do?

and then to be safe from infection. and with those mechanisms to be used to reduce the spread of infection to ameliorate the crisis and then have to pursue those measures. but desantis does not have a good record on this. host: from california. >>caller: thank you for taking my call. it's a great honor to talk toon you.

and since 25 years and it take over the road thank you very much. >> the impact of the internet over the last 25 years. spent quite a story is actually present in at the laboratory of electronics at mit which then was called the arpanet. which later turned into the intranet - - internet. but the injured was

overwhelmingly developed with public funding and publicly created achievement but that was many years later into the nineties. but the internet has now become a major phenomenon with mixed consequences. it does allow us to discover things that we otherwise would not have known. it offers tremendous access to information. and then working on many years. and how the media operate as a

kind of operation and indoctrination system and a combination of both. if you go to the library and look up the microfilm machines to find out what was in "the new yorkca times" now i can do it by clicking a button. and with a crucially important document through september 2021. the us government follows a statement in ukraine. you can find on the internet but not in the media. and with the official on the internet and that

enlightenment and matters how you use it and unfortunately is often used there is a natural tendency to understand to turn at once to the internet site which reinforce that position and that tends to create small bubbles of self reinforcing doctrines and ideas that have becomet

ignorant into reinforce what they want to hear. and that is a widespread phenomenon we are all familiar with and it's quite dangerous. and it is undermining the possibilities of interchange and interaction which is a prerequisite based on the informed electorate with the views of others able to move forward and that is the basis it's pretty much what it was like during the exciting new deal period during the sixties it was also true over a very

wide range of at the time mostly younger populations i was in my forties at the time so i was one of the old folks. but this is deteriorating. so the internet could be a mechanism of liberation and enlightenment and also an instrument of control andct indoctrination and divisiveness from social order. it has potential like a lot of technology, take a hammer it doesn't care where they use it to build a house or a torturer uses it to crash somebody's school.

and in internet is the example and can be an enormous force for enlightenment and liberation and mutual aid and mutual understanding. we have to make that decision. the internet will not make it for us. host: el paso texas please go ahead. >>caller: i don't mind if i change my question i first asked if united nations could solve the problems of yemen and afghanistan and ukraine but now i am concerned with whether or not you think that economic sanctions are inactive for? host: did you catch that, professor quick.

>> . >> it is worth remembering that if sanctions are carriedun out by the united nations we a can ask if they are advisable if they are at least legal most sanctions are carried out by the united states. actually more than half of the world's population is now under some form of us sanctions the united states is using sanctions to punish peopl but you don't want a world in which one power happens to have poor sentiment behind it is capable of

deciding who was sanctioned. it's notti a livable world. sometimes the sanctions are grotesque. take cuba, for 60 years, cuba has been under direct attack by the united states. beginning with the kennedy administration. kennedy carried out a major terrorist war against cuba but it was real and very serious which led to the missile crisis that almost destroyed us and when coursing shells were imposed. but then they continue when russian support was withdrawn and cuba faced those problems it was a limited support it was getting under the

regime and clinton outflanked to the republicans from the right by increasing the sanctions and the torture and then it made it even worse. us sanctions were called third-party sanctions to adhere to us sanctions and in the case of cuba, dramatically the whole world opposes them strenuously and then they are condemned y every year and it was 184 / two for the united

states and israel which has to followrs us orders. actually doesn't even observe the sanctions. but to observe us sanctions even though they oppose them because they are afraid of the united states, it is a frightening country. europe opposes the sanctions and the iran sanctions but it has to go along because it's dangerous and it has the capacity under the international financial system which runs through new york so

then they can provide the medical equipment to cuba or something that usesfr nickel imported from cuba. what is the reason for this? one good thing is that it is an open society. we have a lot of information about what the government is doing. a lot of the material is declassified unlike other countries. that's a very good v thing. so we can look back to thehe records of the kennedy and johnson administration in the 1960s and ask and the reason is "successful defiance of us policies going back that the

us right to dominate the hemisphere turning it into a sphere of influence for the united states and the british power range and then american power increased and finally the us could impose another doctrine in cuba was acting in successful defiance in demand to dominate the hemisphere and to determine what happens here. and to torture them and make

them suffer and then europe joins in are the whole world joins and because they are afraid of the united states. the same with the sanctions with a man. there was an agreement iran has lived up to but completely. us can tell it on —-ir intelligence confirms iran completely lived up to the agreement. it sharply limited iran's capacity but then that is

maintained throughout the biden administration. but we could look for the rest of the world but then to os

british sanctions with the first administration if you

resigned in protest because the sanctions were genocidal, and you are bitterly harming under the thousands of children that are dying in the economy is being destroyed.

>> i and observing and knowing more what was happening than anybody in the last.

but i don't think there is a single review in the united states or immigration but the

strong system is supported by the united states then also to be demoralized when it so

there is all this criticism of the iran sanctions. public criticism in the united states because the defendant violation security council orders then to punish iran to agree that is the question that should be asked.

and with others remember us emotions are so widespread it's worth listening to and thinking about. host: in his book ruleshe the

world. there is a chapter entitled the us and the meeting terrorist space. we have five minutes left with our guest go ahead. >> outlined issue andg. immigration i have a feeling it will only get worse because the time of global warming are not there is anything we can do to make it better think we should check one —- china away it's not easy it to leave the place and go somewhere. but i don't know if you agree also that it will get worse and what we can do. >> i'm not sure i got it completely. >> she was concerned aboutut immigration and she thinks it will get worse because of global climate change.

>> immigration is an interesting question. we don't have much time but one thing we might do is look at the us record on immigration. the less was in an unusual position with extraordinary advantages and very low population density, enormous resources and huge empty spaces with a history on immigration? up until the 20th century, immigrants were welcomed from europe why? it's not a pretty story we were wiping out and exterminating the indigenous populations in the country had been opened up for settlement they do not want white voices to settle it.

and in 1824 the us imposed the first strict immigration restrictions. the words were not used but in effect italians and jews is the effect in the design of the immigration act of 1924. many ended up and extermination camps because they cannot get to theha united states including the amendments of my extended family but that is the least of get. staying until 1965 when thoseg. arrangements were made and discussing.

inflation united states and europe justd spent centuries devastating and destroying the effort and working hard to ensure people are sleeping on the record of european savagery cannot make it to the european shores. and that is the military installation and central africa preventing miserable refugees for making it to the mediterranean. so if you want to forget about it so the policies are horrendous. people who are fleeing from the construction of our

societies murderous terror operations killing hundreds of thousands of people

that tend to be much more extreme we are now intensifying and leading to a huge plight of countries from bangladesh will become unmovable one —- unlivable.

but then they stop the assault on the global environment. we are destroying the environment which do you speak

in interventions worth the writings of the marks doctor chomsky? he has to thehe common books. >> last on our guest on in-depth.