work is error, that strike is error and where to give away anything we have to anyone who says they would like it. >> watch the full program online anytime at booktv.org. just search david mamet or the title of his book "recessional." .. and succeeding in male-dominated professions. and i can show you how you look like. good morning everyone. good morning. good morning. good morning and welcome to the kentucky book festival uk mainstage. my name is maya barber and i'm a

>> i'm a sophomore studying performance. and our first guest, the first female to fly a mission in an f-18. shaped by love of country, baseball, and from age 12, fascination with fighter jets. please welcome amy mcgrath. and the next guest was with the fbi and some of the experiences please welcome kathy stearman. can you here me? amy is going to let me ask the first question and i think you'll love it, first of all, i want to say thank you, amy, for

everything you've done for our country and service, and for all the young women who follow you and all the little girls who can look at amy and not ask the question will i be able to do that and those girls can say, no, i can do that and that's because of amy so give her a big hand for that. thank you. [applause] >> so my first question is this, for me and the people in this room, we'll never fly an f-18. the closest is watching the new tom cruise movie and he's not really flying the plane. i want to know and amy touched on in her book what it's like to fly an f-18, but i want to know more, i want to know how

it feels vicerally. do you want to scream and vomit and stomach come out of your throat? tell me, i want to know. >> and thank you for that kind introduction, before i talk about the f-18, i want to say something kathy, spent a life of service to our country as well in the fbi. went all around the world and did some dangerous things for us, and also, was a trail blazer for me because you know, women in the 1980's and early '90s that went into these fields were not necessarily accepted. and kathy, when you read her book, you will see just how hard it was for her and it was people like kathy that literally opened the doors for

people like me and so i appreciate you and thank you and it's an honor to be standing next to you today. what it's like to fly an f-18. i always tell people, number one, you don't have a lot of time to stop and smell the roses, okay? it's not like you're up there and you're just, you know, yippee yi, cowboy stuff. you're constantly working and imagine playing a soccer match and how physically difficult that is, while doing math problems in your head, and doing a radio interview, at the same time. all at the same time. when you get out of the jet, you literally open the hatch of the cockpit and you walk out and you're completely drenched. have you ever walked out of a, like a-- it's called the sat or the act

and your brain is just fried? that's what it's like after you fly a combat mission. that and your body is completely just, you know, it's like walking off the soccer field or off the basketball court after playing a game. and it's exhilarating, it's wonderful, i always say it's the best job on the face of the earth because it's so challenging in your mind and body and the best part when you do a training mission and you fly into las vegas international airport and pull up next to matthew mcconnaughey's private jet and he walks out of his jet, and out of the cockpit. yeah, man, that's better than yours. and that's after the mission. when you're training in the cockpit it's intense and there's not much time to think.

>> that's awesome. one of the awesome things you said you can look over at matthew mcconnaughey and say, i'm way cooler than you will ever be, dude. >> but i want to-- kathy and i have a lot in common, we both grew up in kentucky and we both went into male dominated national security. alexandria virginia, and training at quantico, but we both had this dream at a very young age and i wanted to ask you because you talk about it a little in your book. how does that come about? you sort of knew that while you liked kentucky, you knew deep down, you wanted something else. can you talk about that? >> you know, i have to say as a little girl, you grew up on a big farm, but i discovered the rest of the world through books

and to me, books are everything. i learned through books that there's something else. there's a lot more out there and i was determined to see it. so, stories that they take me to other places and i think that that's really what gave me the adventurous bug and for some reason, probably my mom, watching her and she didn't have many choices. she grew up in a time when there were no choices and i wanted to have choices in my life so i was determined that i was going to do something that other women didn't get to do, that other women really didn't want to do and i ended up applying to the fbi and the secret service and the cia and i was going to apply to the state department, but i just missed the testing date because i had been told that, you know, working for our government, and

i did grow up very patriotic, because my father was in world war ii, and he didn't talk about it, but i distinctly remember my father saying this long before it became a catch phrase in the last few years, freedom is not free. and there's another thing that my father did that really made me think and i always think about it when i watch the tv series band of brothers. one of the best tv series ever. and the main character, he's standing at night and after it's just been a horrific day and he says, i want to find myself a quiet little farm one of these days and just watch things grow and it hit me so hard because my father said the same thing once when i said daddy, why didn't you stay in hawaii after the war which is where he stationed. he said i wanted to find quiet place where i could watch

things grow and that hit me because that was his patriotism talking, but at the same time it's what he wanted so i grew up with a feeling of being a patriot and why i ended up with a government agency and so in a nutshell, that's it. >> and you have-- when you read her book, she has so many amazing stories from her training, from being all around the world, india and china and they're so-- the stories are so detailed so my question to you is did you have a journal? how did you remember that stuff? >> no, actually most of the work i did was classified so i couldn't keep notes, but i did write down words and phrases, like don't forget the monkey story, and things like that, but i have a pretty good memory, so if i had a word or a phrase to jog my memory, that's how i ended up writing the book. which brings me to a chapter in my book, it's the very first one, and it's called the foot.

and in the foot i'm talking about being in sri lanka, and i'm working on a suicide bomber case and the suicide bomber was a woman and my thought was what did she believe in so much that she was willing to die for it? and at the end, i asked the question, what is it that we, what is it that i, what is it that each one of us believes in so much that we would die for it? and so at a recent interview asked, are you advocating suicide bombers? no, what do you believe in. all the people who marched for the women to vote and civil rights, they didn't know if they were going to be killed in the process. and it hit me, we ask our

military to do the same thing, we ask our soldiers to walk out the door and go fight for something that they believe in or we believe in. so my question for you, amy, how did you resolve that within yourself when you knew you were going on a combat mission, did you think about am i going to come back or did you just go knowing that you had to go fight for something that you believed in? >> i think for me to fly fighter jets and to be in aviation, aviation in the military is an inherently dangerous job. whether you're at war or whether you're in peace and if you're the kind of person that wants to go into that field you have to sort of make peace with that early on in training as, you know, i have lost friends

and most of my friends who i've lost along the way, folks, were not lost in combat. only a couple. two or three of the 10 friends of mine who are no longer with us, most of them were killed in aviation mishaps. and when you look at that, you realize that, you know, some of that is-- none of it was their fault. it was just they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and you know, the machine didn't work and we're doing really, really dangerous stuff and it's something that you recognize in the very beginning and not everybody wants to do this, but our country needs people to do it, and i'm willing to do it. and if i'm going to lose my life in the process, then, you know, i did it for the right reasons, and i feel like i look

on that time in my life and that's what i've always felt, obviously, you never want that to happen, but it's something you make peace with early on, you know? i wanted to ask you about a little about your training because i alluded to it at the beginning when we first spoke that you were going through it in a male dominated time in the 1980's. there were people when you read the book, there were people that literally tried to sabotage her training because she was a woman. i never experienced that, i knew in the marine corps there were lots of people who didn't want me there, but i can't stay that somebody actually tried to sabotage my training, actually tried to make me fail. and i was wondering if you could talk about that. and the reason i bring that up,

i think there's a difference even in one decade. i went through training in the 1990's. kathy went through training in the 1980's and even having one decade more of integration of women into some of these fields, i believe, you may disagree, but i believe that is actually changed some of how, you know, our federal agencies have worked because things have-- were better and i actually think that things are better now for women than they were in the '80s and '90s. so i just wondered if you could reflect on this. >> the chapter that amy is talking about, my first experience in the fbi was my firearms instructor at quantico, he changed the sight for my gun so i couldn't hit the target. i grew what he'd done, i grew up in kentucky and kept telling him my sites are off. no, no, you can't shoot. you might as well leave, just walk off now. being from kentucky i knew all

about kentucky windage and with that, and with the help of a west virginia state trooper who stood behind me and told me where my shots were going i was able to get through it, but that was my first experience in the fbi and i think over the years the fbi has evolved to a certain extent. but unfortunately, one of the things that made me realize that when i was writing this book that i was on the right path. i saw the new york times where there were 15 or 16 women who had filed a lawsuit, this is in 2019, had filed a lawsuit against the fbi because their firearms instructors at quantico were trying to sabotage their training, 2019. so i thought to myself, has it changed really? i mean, has it? yes, there are more women in leadership positions, but i think there's-- and the fbi is still inherently

male-dominated. and you know, i think that unfortunately, had a lot of the negative media that the fbi's getting is warranted, especially when it comes to those young women, those young gymnasts who went to the fbi to talk about their sexual assault and they were ignored. it's my opinion, not the fbi, that they were ignored because they were young women. what i've done now, i've gotten e-mails from young women who want to join the fbi. i say to them. you go into the fbi, you do not let change you. you change it. and the more women and minorities that go into the fbi, then the more it's going to change because as you said in the book, amy, you said it so well, mret me -- let me find it. you basically said when men see women in the organizations and

the positions they're in, then they will basically realize that women aren't minorities, that women can do the job, i'm paraphrasing it here, you said it so much better. what amy said was so true and what i tell women is the truth. more women, more minorities need to be in the marines, need to be in the military, need to be in the fbi and as more women bring their influence into the organization, it will change. it will stop being such a misogynist, male-oriented organization. i say to all young women, if you want to do this, go for it. if you want to be a marine, fly a jet, go for it. don't let it change you, you change the narrative. so, one of the things that we both talked about in our books is our mothers and the influence that our mothers had on us and you knew really early

on, the influence that your mother had on you. you saw her every day and you were so awed by her. i, on the other hand, didn't really understand everything that my mother had given me until i was an adult. but i'm really fortunate in that the last several years of her life i got to spend time with her and i got to know who she was as a person, not just my mom, somebody i expected to be there when i walked in the door, do you want a sandwich? that was my mom. i got to know who she was and what her dreams were. so i would like to ask you, tell me about the influence that your mother had on you, and part of that question, you have a daughter, she's five, right to you want to tell her everything that you've done and everything you've accomplished or do you want that influence for her to happen organically

like it did with your mother? >> probably organically. my mother was a physician and went through medical school in university of kentucky in 1960's, one of the first women to graduate from medical school during that time in university of kentucky. i was proud of her, but didn't know how much of an influence she had until she got an award. i was 11 or 12 years old, and she got an award. we went across the river to cincinnati. and it was four or five times this group, and here i am a pre-teen, i went to the back by myself and this woman came up next to me and said, your dr. mcgrath's daughter, aren't you? >> she was probably late 30's,

early 40's. and i looked at her and i said yeah. and she said, i want you to know something, your mother saved my life. and you ought to be really proud of your mom. she's really special. and you're really special to be her daughter. and it was that to me was the first time that i ever really realized, wow, you know. >> so growing up my mother did have a big influence on me and later on when i went into the marine corps and did these things and i usually was the only woman in my squadron or in my unit and certain things would happen and i would call mom, you know, like this happened, mom. what the f, you know, what do i do about it? should i be worried? how do i get through this? and my mom said, oh, they did

the same thing to me in the '60s, forget about it, move on. so my mother helped me all along the way, even as an adult because she had been through what, you know, going in that male dominated environment in the 1960's of the medical professor. i was able to basically plow through some things that may have stopped others because mom was just like, yeah, it's no big deal. move on. water of the duck's back kind of thing. and she today still has a huge influns. with my daughter, one of the things my parents, they never made fun of me. i went to a catholic school, girls did certain things and didn't do other certain things and they never said to me, that that's a dream that is not for you. and that's kind of the way i want to be for my boys and

girls, whatever they decide to do, to be behind them. so, i want to get into some good hard questions in a little bit, but i have just a couple of technical ones, because if you guys are like me, when i read kathy's book, the first thing i thought, fbi, why on earth is the fbi overseas? aren't they domestic? right? so i wanted to know to touch on why the fbi is even overseas and occurred to me, do i know what counter espionage is and all of this stuff. could you define that for people? because you did that and also talk about in your book, process that the fbi did taking certain things out of your book. i had to go through a similar process, you should know, with mine through the department of defense where they look at it and they say, okay, you have

revealed classified information so you can't say this. now, i tonight have-- they didn't strike anything out of the book, which is great, but you must have gone through something similar because you have black lines there. can you answer that. >> there are some redactions in my book and because i wrote a nonfiction book, they have to review it and if they have questions they have to send it to a certain unit, hey, is this classified. mine had to go to counter intelligence and counter espionage. the things marked out of my book aren't classified and they said to me, look, it's not classified, but the general public doesn't necessarily need to know it. and some of it, i thought was just silly because it's like, blank director david petraeus. cia director. it's like they marked out cia and i said why are you doing

that? and the letters cia are everywhere. they said, well, if you have the letters cia in your book then the cia has to review your book and that could add months to your publication, okay, forget it, i'll leave it there. anyway and i'll make this quick because it's a much longer answer. the fbi is overseas and over 70 offices and we're all based at the u.s. embassies throughout the world and most people don't know that we're overseas and what the fbi does, if there's a nexus to an investigation in the united states and has a nexus to, say, china, which is one of the places i was stationed. and i have to go to the chinese government and get whatever evidence they need and get back to the united states. and advice versa, if the chinese have that. and that's certainly what

you're doing, more of a liaison position although in some offices and in the ones i covered. if there's a case or a terrorist bombing which happened in a couple of the places i covered. if the foreign government wants the fbi to help with flair -- their investigation, they make a request of me and i go to the fbi and if it warranted we send people over to the country and help with their investigation. also, if there's a terrorist attack overseas, and americans are killed, that's the fbi's jurisdiction and investigates it. that's pretty much what the fbi does overseas. counter intelligence, counter espionage, we're looking for spies, that's what we do, we look for spies in the united states and i like to say that the fbi looks for spies.

we hunt down the spies and the cia, they make spies, so in a nutshell that's pretty much it. >> very good. >> now, one of the things in your book, you talk about sear training, survival eration evasion, and escape. >> compared fbi training is a cakewalk, you say on your book page 167, the goal when you get captured, you become like a p.o.w., so the goal is only to resist until you can't resist any longer. instructors were adamant that we were to come home alive with honor. so my question is, because i thought about this, and especially in the last few years, john mccain has been called a loser because he was captured, because he was a

p.o.w. and i think that sometimes the public looks at soldiers captured and they're forced to read a statement on tv or in a camera and it's a lie. we know it's a lie and sometimes when those soldiers come home they may be perceived as a loser, like john mccain, which he obviously was not or weak for giving in. so, could you being speak to na? i think the public really misunderstands this concept as to what a soldier is meant to do if they are he captured. >> sure. well, first of all, you know, if you're -- if it's unfortunate enough that you are captured or shot down, that's not necessarily your fault. you are probably somebody who, you know, were just doing their job and you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. so to call anybody just for being shot down or captured a

looser is just absolutely insane. but i think one of the things that they train you to do in survival school as an american, it doesn't help our country once you're captured to die in captivity, okay? it doesn't help us. it doesn't help the war effort if you come back in a body bag. so, the goal is to survive. yes, you don't want to give away state secrets, but uncle sam doesn't want you to die. they want to you survive. air not helping the war effort anymore, you're captured. do what you can to survive and do it with honor. you're not doing everything that the enemy wants you to do, but if the enemy is torturing you to the point where you will die, then survive. our country will be okay with

that and that's what they train you to do and they do it in a hard school, survival school, one of the hardest things i've ever done, it involves lack of food, lack of sleep and physical contact in a lot of different types of abuses. when i went through survival training, i was the senior officer going through and i talk about that in my book and senior officers going through do not get treated the west, they get treated the worst and it was definitely an eye opening experience, but one of the i think so things that i've loved about john mccain, in one of his last walks at the u.s. naval academy right before he passed away and somebody asked him about honor, and what that meant. you know, he was a prisoner of war for many, many years and the north vietnamese offered to get him out early because his dad was an admiral, and they

said, you know, we can get you out months or years before. you'll basically cut the line of all the other prisoners that we're releasing, you'll cutted line, you'll get in front and he said no. that's honor. that's honor right there. he stayed as a prisoner of war for many, many years because the rule was that the other prisoners who were there longer got out first. you know, and he said when asked why did you do that? he said well, i could have gotten out, i may have died in captivity. but if i had gotten out early, how would i have been able to live the rest of my life? i would have lived the rest of my life with no honor. and that's what they teach you there and that's what i learned. and it's something that really was ingrained. it's one of the reasons i stood

up and ran for political office, because i felt like i had to do something. i had to try. so-- >> so i hope more people read amy's book because you actually show people if you're captured, you're a p.o.w. and you do what you need to do to survive, that's a sign of strength, it's not a weakness and i really hope that more people get that message from you and i don't know how we can make that more prevalent out in the public because right now, i think we're so divided that that opinion, that perception is still out there and i really hate to see it and hear it and i know you do, too. >> kathy and amy, if you don't mind we'd like to give the audience a chance to ask a few questions for five or 10 minutes if that's all right? if anybody has a question,

raise your hand, i'll bring the microphone to you. anybody has a question, don't be shy, it's all good. oh, i'll start by asking, amy, what's the most common question that people ask you that you think they know already, but it surprises you every time when they ask? >> the most common question that people ask me now? >> yes. >> are you going to run again. [laughter] >> and i'm in a supporting role at this point. so, i'm dd-- i want to help others help our country. i guess it's not surprising, but i don't know what would you say, what's the most surprising question people ask you. >> why did you write your book. that's the question i get asked more. it's not about the fbi, why did you write it. if you look at the shelves,

there are all kinds of book by male agents. and there's only one and that was over 20 years ago. >> my daughter is in the rotc where she goes to school. if you could give her some advice, what would you tell her. >> see an army or a navy-- army? awesome. that's great. i would tell her, stick with it. there's going to be good days, there's going to be bad days and look back and never regret it. that's what i would tell her. >> i see you, i'm coming, i'm coming. right here. pardon me. would you stand up, please? >> i've read your book, kathy and of course, i love it.

but i have a question, and this is just -- and why do they call that position leaguet. sounds like you have to be a lawyer. >> that's a question that every has asked headquarters since the department was open. the department of justice actually sends attaches over to embassies as well and they're called the -- i don't know, the doj attache or something like that. the fbi says well we send attaches over and so they game up with legal attache. we're from the doj, but not the same unit that the others are from and a lot of us, we actually went to headquarters and said can we change the name? it confuses everybody.

and then headquarters was like, no, too much trouble. you'll have to change this, change that, change that paper work. too much trouble and time and money. it will take years, blah, blah, blah. so that is government efficiency at its best. >> this next question comes from everybody who enjoys books. what are your next projects in terms of books? do you both have one, in the works? >> i do plan to write books, some more books, but i would like to write about obscure women from history. women that we don't know about and i want, especially women if to know about. so i actually have a short list of women that i've discovered in my travels and my work. who is this woman? i've never heard of her. i want to write write about those women because i want people to realize that our history was built by women, not just men.

so writing about me was one thing, writing about another woman is another. literally another story so i've actually started create nonfiction so i could learn the craft of writing nonfiction about other people because it's totally different than writing about yourself. >> so, i don't have any project as far as a book in this year or next. but i do like to write. and i write a lot of op-eds and i write when there's a spark, right? so january 6th, i actually wrote not only an op-ed, but i took my manuscript and rewrote the last chapter. i had it all in to the publisher and then january 6th happened and i thought no, we're not getting it printed yet. we're going to rewrite the

thing. >> when i see a spark, i've written three or four op-eds published, usa today, and usually about current events or i'm trying to die some of my experience and credibility into talking about certain things happening in our country. so i do like to write, but as far as a new book project, i don't know, i've got to think about this. i've got three little kid that are taking up all of my time and they're amazing, but i've been focused on coaching social and baseball lately. >> we have a couple more questions right here. >> sand up, please. >> hello, i'd like to ask either or both of you all. what do you all think that we can do to stop the division in the united states? >> i think that what we can do

individually, number one, we can inoculate ourselves a little bit against disinformation and try to help others that we know get innoculated from disinformation and i look at this and i look at it very much as a national security concern. our enemies are looking at what is happening in our country and the disinformation that is dividing us and that's exactly what they're trying to push. it's working of the never in my lifetime did i think the capitol would be breached and it hasn't since 1814 and we did it to ourselves. so i feel like that's something that we could do and everybody sort of wants to look at politics and sometimes i do, too, and i raise my hand, nothing i can do. i watch the news and it's all

crazy. there's something you can do and that's not give up. it's more than just voting. you love our country right now, you have to do more than just vote. you have to. and whether it is supporting a candidate that you like, that believes in the values that you have, maybe it's supporting somebody that's not here in this state 6789 maybe it's supporting someone else, why is it so important? because it's about our country. i always try to tell people, you can't just sit this one out. if you're a patriotic american, you've got to stay involved and support in any way you can. that's what i would say. >> and i would like to add to what amy said about this being a national security issue and it is, having lived and worked in china and china in my area of expertise for almost 30 years, while we are eating ourselves from within with our division, they are thrilled.

the chinese are quietly going around the world and they are getting allies and buying up raw materials and they're loving the fact that we are destroying ourselves from within. we have to stop. it's a national security issue and you know, fighting with each other and not trying to understand how the other person thinks across the aisle, we need to start understanding each other better and coming to some way that we can work together as a country again, because if we don't, china is circling and that to me is our biggest threat. >> amy and kathy, we have time for one more question. >> actually, i have a two-part question. first part is, what was an example of where your trail

blazing and your particular organizations, military or fbi, caused males with respect to as a result of you're exempt. and the second part of the question, what can males do to better understand and be able to connect with trail blazers in their organizations who are females or other cultures today? >> can you just repeat the first question again for us? >> yes, what was an example of where males were able to recognize and perhaps better respond to females and perhaps other cultures as a result of your trailblazing example. >> so the question was, give us

some examples when males were able to accept and respond to, you know, you in your career. i can tell you that -- and this isn't true for all women in the military, okay? but i had-- my experience in the military was fabulous. yeah, there were some jerks, okay? there's no doubt, but by and large, what i found and now men restricted you is-- what i loved about the military was performance matters. can you put the bomb on the target on time? you can't mess with that, the target is gone. take a look. can you land the $70 million jet on top of an aircraft carrier, at night, in bad weather? hey, brother, i did it, can you

do it? nobody else in the cockpit with me. once you've done some of these things, can you make it through survival school as the senior reporting officer, the one that gets beat up the most. hey, man, i did it, can you do it? so when you've done these things, the men who are your peers are like, yeah, man, she's for real. the men who are your superiors are harder to change because they've never had women peers and it's not that they're bad people and it's not that -- it's just that never trained with a woman and never had the experience of iffing the 20-pile, and always with men, they're not quite sure. but your peers they train with

you and they get it. when you rise into leadership positions, you can chaek the dynamic of the culture. when i first went into my first fighter squadron and i talk about it in the book, there's a lot of antics and locker room stuff. you can read about it, interesting. when i came back at a higher rank, none of that happened. i wonder why? because now i'm the one in charge. what we found out about that, guess what, the bomb is still hitting the target on time. jets didn't turn pink. we still did our job and we did our job without all of that c-r-a-p and we did it better. and so, that's my lesson to folks who are integrating women in corporations, in businesses and in agencies is that you can still be very professional without all of the antics and

performance matters. >> i agree. i think for my career as i progressed up the ladder, with a couple of exceptions with my peers, when i progressed up the ladder, that's when i encountered men who tonight want me to be there. what amy said in her book, when more women are in those positions, now that they're doing their job and all of that other nonsns will go away, but i would like to say, i'm pretty down with the pink jet, because that will throw the russians and the chinese off. >> thanks, everybody. >> thank you all. [applause] >> thanks for coming. thanks for reading books. i have to say it, it's awesome and thanks for being kentuckians, you guys are great. >> anyway, i want everybody to

read this book. see all of my tabs, this is how many questions i would ask amy today. and i'll pick out a few. it's awesome. and i'm sure there will be a way to contact you. >> and thank you this morning. and coming up at 11:30, joining us as brian kilmeade takes the stage. enjoy the kentucky book festival. have a great day. >> there are a lot of places to get political information, but only at c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you're from or where you are on the issues. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word, if it happens here or here or here or anywhere that matters. america is watching on c-span,

powered by cable if you're enjoying book tv then sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen. the author discussions, the book festivals and more, book tv anytime online at book tv.org. television for serious readers. >> good morning, and thank everyone for coming, i'm a fifth year senior at university of kentucky, i study vocal arts administration on this, a brisk morning. the author of taboo, 10 facts you can't talk about. a crime hoax