just search david mamet or the title ofhis book recessional . >> if you're enjoying sign up for our newsletter using the qr code to receive a schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions and more. book tv every sunday or anytime online at booktv.org. the television for serious readers. >> good morning everyone. good morning. and welcome to the kentucky lbook festival mainstage. my name is mayor barbara and i'm a sophomore at uk. our first guest a native of edgewood kentucky was the first female marine to fly combat mission in an f/a-18. i childhood shaped by love of country, baseball and from

the age of 12 fascination with fighter jets. please welcome amy mcgrath. [applause] >> our next guest spent more than six years as a special agent with the fbi and today sherecounts some of the exchanges that shape your life . please welcome kathy stearman. >> you can hear me. i can tell you can hear me. so amy is going to let me ask the first question and icethink you all are going to love it but i want to say amy, thank you for everything you've done for our country .and for all that you've done for young women who follow you and all those little girls can look at amy and not ask the question will i be able to do that, will i be able to fly that f/a-18?

those little girls can say i can do that. and that'sbecause of amy. give her a big hand for that . so my first question is this. for me and for i would say most people in this room we are never going to fly an f/a-18. probably the closest we're ever going to come iswatching the new time cruise movie where he's not really flying the plane . so i really want to know and amy touched on this in her book about what it's liketo fly an f/a-18 but i want to know more. i want to know how that feels this early . does it feel like you just t want to bomb, does your stomach want to come out of tell us what it's like, i want to know. >> first of all, thank you for that kind introduction.

and before i get into telling everybody about what it's like to fly an f/a-18 i want to say something briefly about kathy. who's spent a life of service to our country as well. in the fbi. went all around the world, did some very dangerous things for us. and also was a trailblazer for me. because you know, women in the 1980s and early 90s that went into these fields were not necessarily accepted. and kathy, when you read her book you will see just how hard it was for her and it was people like kathy that literally opened the doors for people like me. so i appreciate you and thank you and it's an honor to be standing next to you today. but what it's like to fly an f/a-18. i would tell people number

one, you don't have a lot of time to stop and smell the roses. it's not like you're up there and you're just a cowboy stuff. you're very intense. you're constantly thinking. you're constantly working.i always tell people it's like imagine playing a soccer match and how physically difficult that is while doing math problems. in your head.and doing a radio interview at the same time. all at the same time. when you get out of the jet you literally opened the hatch of the cockpit and you walk out and you're completely drenched. have you ever walked out like it's called the f/a-18 or the act and your brain is just fried? that's what it's like after you fly a combatmission . that and your body is completely just, it's like

walking off the soccer field or off a basketball court after playing a game. and it's exhilarating. it's wonderful. i would say it's the best job on the face of the earth because it's so challenging in your mind and in your body and the best part is when you do a training mission and you fly into las vegas international airport, you to matthew up next mcconaughey's jet and he walks out of his jet and you pop the cockpit and you're like yeah man. my ship is better than yours. that's the best part. but that's always after you've done your mission. when you're training or when you're inthe cockpit is extremely intense and there's not much time to think . >> that's awesome. one of the most awesome things you said is you can look over at matthew mcconaughey and say i am way cooler than you will ever be, dude. but kathy and i have a lot in

common because we both grow up here in kentucky. we both left home and went into male-dominated environments and careers in national security and we've lived in some of the same places . alexandria virginia, went through training at quantico but we both had this dream a young age and i want to ask you because you talk about it a little bit in your book. how did that come about i? you sort of new that while like kentucky you knew deep down you wanted something else. can you talk about that? >> i have to say as the little girl i grew up on a big farm. but i discovered the rest of the e world through books. and to me, books are everything. i learned through books that there's something else. there's a lot more out there in and i was determined to see it. so stories, they take me to other places and i think that

that's really what gave me the adventurous bug and for some reason probably my mom watching her and the fact that she didn't have many choices. she grew up in a time when there wereno choices . and i wanted tocehave choices in my life . so i was determined that i was going to do something that other women didn't get to do. that other women didn't really want to do. and i ended up applying to the fbi and secret service andcia . and i was going to lie to the state department but i had missed the testing date. because i had been told that you know, working for our government and i did grow up very patriotic. because my father was in world war ii. and he didn't talk about it. but i distinctly remember my father saying this. long before it became a catchphrase in the last few years.

freedom is not free. and there's another thing that my father did that really made me think and i always think about it when i watch the tv series band of brothers. one of the best tv series ever. and the main character, he's standing at night and after it's just been a terrific day and he says i want to find myself a quiet farm one of these days and just watch thingsgrow and it hit me so hard ddbecause my father said that same thing once . daddy, why didn't you stay in hawaii after the war which is where he was stationed and he said i wanted to find a quiet place where i could watch things grow. and that really hit me because i knew that was his patriotism talking but at the same time it's what he wanted . so i grew up with that feeling of being a patriot which is whyi ended up with a government agency . so in a nutshell that's it.

>> ewhen you read the book you'll see she has so many amazing stories from her training, from being all around the world. india and china and the stories are so detailed. my question is did you have a journal? how did you remember all that stuff? >> most of the work i did was classified so i couldn't keep notes. i did write down like words and phrases. don't forget the monkey story and things like that. i have a pretty good memory. if i had a word or a phrase ito jog my memory, that's how i ended up writing a book. which brings me to a chapter in my book. it's the very first one and it's called the slip and in the flex i'm talking about being in sri lanka. i'm working on a suicide bomber case and the suicide bomber was a woman . my father was what did she believe in so much that she was willing to die for it?

and at the end, i asked the question what is it that we, what is it that i, that each one of us believes in so much that we would die for it? so i in a recent interview someone said are you advocatingsuicide bombers and i said that's not what i'm asking . what i'm saying is what do you believe in and all the people who went out and marched for the right to women to vote. and all the people who marched for civil rights. when they walked out their doors they didn't know they were going to come back. they had noidea if they were going to be killed . then it hit me. we ask our military to go do thesame thing . we ask our soldiers to walk out the door and go fight for something that they believe in thor we believe in. so my question to you amy is how did you resolve that within yourself when you knew you were going on a combat

mission, did you think about going to come back or did you just go knowing that you had to go fight for somethingthat you believed in ? >> i think for me to fly a fighter jets and to be in deviation, aviation in the military is an terribly dangerous job. whether you're at war or whether you're at peace. and if you're the kind of person that wants to go into that field, you have to sort of make peace with that early on. in the training, i have lost friends. and most of my friends who i have lost along the way folks were not lost in combat. only a couple, two or three. of the 10 friends of mine who are no longer with us, most

of them were killed in aviation mishaps. and when you look at that you realize that some of that is, not of it was their fault. it was just they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and the machine didn't work and we're doing really dangerous stuff and it's something that you recognize in the very beginning and you're like not everybody wants to do this but our country needs people to do it . and i'm willing to do it. if i lose my life in the process, then i did for the right reasons. and i feel like i look back on that time in my life and that's what i've always felt. obviously you never want that to happen but it's something you make peace with early on.

i wanted to ask you about a little bit about your training because i've alluded to it at the beginning when we first spoke. that you were going through training and a very male-dominated environment in the 1980s. there were people, when you read her book going to realize there were people that tried to sabotage her training. because she's a woman. i never experienced that i knew even in the marine corps there were lots of people that didn't want me there but i can't ever to say to somebody tried to sabotage my training. actually tried to make me fail. and i was wondering if you could talk about that and the reason i bring that up is because i feel like there's even a difference in one decade. i went through training in the 1990s. kathy went through through training in the 80s and even having one decade more of integration of women into some of these fields, i believe you may disagree but

i believe has actually changed some of how our federal agencies have worked. because things are better and i actually think things are better now for women and they were in the 80s and 90s. so i just wonder if you could reflect on that. >> the chapter that any talking about is my first experience and the fbi was my instructor want to go change the sites on my gun so that i couldn't hit a target and i knew what he haddone . i kept telling him that my sites were off and he's like no, you just can't shoot . you might as well walk outnow . eiso being from kentucky i knew all about kentucky windage and with that and with the help of the west virginia state trooper who stood behind me and told me where all my shots were going i was able to get through it but that was my first experience

in the fbi. i think over the years that fbihas evolved . to a certain extent. but unfortunately one of the things that made me realize that when i was writing this book that i was on the right path was i saw in the new york ntimes where there were 15 or 16 women who had filed a lawsuit. this is in 2019. had filed a lawsuit against the fbi because their firearms instructors were aitrying to sabotage their training. 2019. so i thought to myself has been changed? really has it? yes there are more women in leadership positions but i think in the fbi it's still inherently male-dominated. and i think that unfortunately a lot of the negative media that the fbi is getting is warranted especially when it comes to young women who went to the fbi to talk about their sexual assault and they were

ignored. i personally think and it's just my opinion, it's not the opinion of the fbi. they were ignored because they were young women . so what i do now, i have gotten so many emails from young women whowant to join the fbi but this is what i say to them . you go into the fbi. you do not let it change you. you change it. and the more women and minorities that go into the fbi then the more it's going to change because as you say in the book amy, you said it so well. let me find it. you basically said when men see women in these organizations and in the positions therein then they will basically realize that women are minorities. women can do the job and i'm paraphrasing, you said it so much better but that is true. what amy said was so true and

what i tell young women is the truth . more women, more minorities need to be in the marines, need to be in the military. and as more women bring their influence into the organization it will change. will stop being such a misogynist male oriented organization. so i say to all young women if you want to do this go for it. if you want to bea marine, fly jet , go for it and don't let it change you. you change the narrative. >> one of the things that we both talked about in our books is our mother's. and the influence that our mothers had on us. you knew really early on the influence that your mother had on you and you sawher every day and you were so on by her . i on the other hand didn't really understand everything that my mother had given me until i was an adult. but i'm really fortunate in

that the last several years of her life i got to spend time with her and i got to know who she was as a person. not just my mom, somebody i expected to be there when i walked in the door and said you want to sandwich? that was my mom but i got to know who she was and whather dreams were . i would like to ask you, tell me about the influence that your mother had on you but then part of that question is you have a daughter. she's five. do you want to tell her everything that you've done and everything you've accomplished or do you want that influence for her to happen organically like it did with your mother? >> probably organically. my mother was a physician that went through medical school at the university of kentucky in the 1960s, one of the first women to graduate

and the university of kentucky at that time. i knew that about my mother growing up and i was proud of her. but i didn't really know how much of an influence she had on other people until she got an award. i was about 11, 12 years old. this was in the city of cincinnati. so we went across the river and she accepted an award and she got up in front of a group which is probably like four or five times the size of this group and gave an acceptance speech and here i am a preteen. i went to the back and by myself and watched and this woman came up next to me. and he said to me your doctor mcgrath's daughter. she was probably late 30s, early 40s. and i looked at her and i said yeah. and she said i want you to know something. your mother saved my life. and you want to be really proud of your mom.

she's really special and you're really special to be her daughter. and it was that to me was the first time that i ever really realized wow. and so growing up my mother did have a big influence onme . and later on when i went into the marine corps and did these things and i usually was the only woman in my squadron or in my unit, then certain things would happen and i would call mom. like, this happened mom. what do i do about it? and should i be worried and how do i get through this? my mom would be like they did the same thing to me back in the 60s, forget aboutit . move on. my mother helped me along the way even as an adult because she had been through that

male-dominated environment in the medical profession i was able to basically plow through some things that may have stopped others because mom was just like it's no big .eal move on. water off the back kind of thing. she today still has a huge influence and with my daughter, one of the things i loved about both my parents is they never made fun of me. i went to a catholic school. girls in certain things. guys did other certain things and they never said to me that's a dream that is not for you. and that's kind of the way i want to be for both my boys and girls no matter what they decide to do. i want to get into some good hard questions in a little bit but i have just a couple

technical ones because if you guys are like me when i read kathy spoke the first thing i thought was fbi , why onearth is the fbi overseas are they domestic ? so i wanted to know if you could touch on why the fbi is even overseas and then it occurred to me.as i was like i do i even really know what counterespionage is and all this stuff? i was wondering if you could define that for people because you did that. and then also talk about in that the a process fbi did with taking certain things out of your book because i had to go through a similar process you should know with mine through the department of defense where they look at it and they say okay, you have revealed to find information so you can say this. now, i didn't have, they didn't strike anything out of my book is great you must have gone through absomething similar because you have a black lines in theircan you talk about that ? >> to enter that first there

are some red actions in my book and because i wrote a nonfiction book the fbi republication unitá. if they have any questions then they have to send it to a certain unit and say hey,is this classified ? my mind had to go to counterespionage because that's what i was referring to . the thing that had been marked out a book, they said that to me. it's not classified but the general public doesn't necessarily need to know it. the summer i thought was silly. it's like blank director david betray us. cia director. it's like a marked up cia and i said why are you doing? the letters cia are everywhere. they said if you have the letters in your book and the cia asked to review your book and that could add months to your publication. okay, i'll just leave it there. but i'll make this quick

because it's a much longer answer. the fbi is overseas andover 70 offices . we are based in us embassies and most people don't know we are overseas and what the fbi does is if there is a nexus to an investigation in the united states and it has a nexus to china which is one of the places i towas stationed on the person who works with the government to get that information or evidence or whatever they need and get back to the united states so we can do our investigation and vice versa. wiif the chinese have an investigation i help them with that so the fbi, the legal attachc with the head of the office that'sgenerally what you're doing .it's more of a liaison position although in some offices and in the ones i covered if there is a case for a terrorist bombing which happened in a couple of the

places i covered. if the foreign government wants the fbi to help with their investigation they make a formal request to me and i go to the director of the fbi and then if it is warranted and we send people over to that country and we help them with their investigation and also if there's a terrorist attack overseas americans are killed and that is the fbi's jurisdiction. the fbi investigate it. that's pretty much what the fbi does overseas. counterintelligence, counterespionage, we are looking for spies. that's what we do. we look for spies in the unitedstates . and i like to say that the fbi looks for spies. we hunt down the spies and the cia,they make spies . in anutshell that's pretty much it . now, what one of the things that in your book you talk about training.

that is survival evasion resistance and escape tand any went through see her training which by comparison fbi academy training is like a cakewalk but you say in your book that on page 167 the goal when you get captured, you become like a pow so the goal is only to resist until you can't resist any longer. instructors were adamant that we were to come home alive with honor. so my question is because i thought about this and especially in the last few years. john mccain has been called a loser because he was captured. because he was a pow . sometimes the public looks at soldiers who are captured and

they're forced to read a statement on tv or on camera and its ally and we all know it's a life and yet sometimes they come home they may be perceived as a loser like john mccain which he obviously was not or that they were weak forgiving in. could you that because i think the public really misunderstands this concept as to what a soldier is meant to do if they are captured. >> first of all, if it's unfortunate enough that you are captured or shot down, that is not necessarilyyour fault . you are probably somebody who was just doing their job and you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. so to call anybody just for beingshot down or captured a loser is absolutely fake . but i think one of the things that they trained you to do and survival school as an american is, it doesn't help our country once you're captured to die in captivity.

okay, it doesn't help. it doesn't help the war effortif you come back in a body bag . so the goal is to survive. yes, you don't want to get away state secrets but uncle sam doesn't want you to die. they want you to survive. you're not helping the war effort anymore ifyou're captured . so do what you can to survive. eado it with honor and that means you know, nyou're not doing everything that the enemy wants you todo . but if the enemy is torturing you to the point where you will die, then survive. our country will be okay with that. that's what they train you to do and they do it in the really hard school called survival school which is just about one of the hardest things i've ever done because it involves lack of food and

lack of sleep and physical contact and a lot of different types of abuses and when i went through survival training i was the senior officer going through and i'll talk about that in my book the senior officer is going through do not get treated the best. they get treated the worst. , and it wasdefinitely an eye-opening experience . but one of the things that i love about john mccain and one of his last talks he did was at the us naval academy before he passed away and somebody asked him about father and what that meant. he was a prisoner of war for many years and the north vietnamese offered to get him out early becausehis dad was an admiral . and they said we can get you out months or years before. you'll basically cut the line of all the other prisoners that we are releasing . you'll get in front . and he said number that's

honor. that's honor right there.th he stayed as a prisoner of war for many years because ea the rule was that the other prisoners who were there longer got out first . and he said when asked why did you that he said i could have gottenout. i may have died in captivity . but if i had gotten out early , how would i have been able to live the rest of my life? i would have lived the rest of my life with no honor. and that is what they teach you there and that's what i learned. it's something that was ingrained. is one of the reasons i ran for political office. because i felt like i had to do something. i had to try. >> i hope more people read amy's book because you actually show people if

you're captured you're a pow and you do what you need to do to survive. that's a sign of strength. it's not a weakness and i really hope that more people get that message from you and i don't know how we can make that more prevalent in the public because right now i think we are so divided that that opinion, that perception is still out there and i really hate to see it and i hate to hear it and i know that you do to . >> cassie and amy if you don't mind we'd like to give the audience a chance to ask a few questions for five or 10 minutes if that's all right. if anybody's got a question if you'll raise your hand i will bring the microphone to you. anybody have a question? don't be shy, it's all good. i'll start by asking amy, what's the most common question that people ask you that you think they know already but it surprises you

every time when they ask? >> the most common question people ask me now? are you going to run again west and mark and i'm in a supporting role at this point. i want to help others help our country. so i guess it's not surprising but i don't know. what would you say? what's the most surprising question people ask you? >> why did you write your book. that's the question iget asked the most . they say why did you write it and i think that's because if you look at these bookshelves will see all kind of books written by a male fbi agents. there's only one other female agent who retired as an agent and that was over 20 years ago so you don't see a female

fbi. >> my daughter is in the rotc. if you could give her some advice, what would you tell her? >> she and army? awesome.ld that's great. i would tell her stick with it. there's going tto be good days and bad daysshe's going to look back and never regretted . >> icu, i'm coming. right here. pardon me. >> stand up please. >> so i've read your book kathy and of course i love it but i have a question. this utis just italy but it sounds like you have to be a lawyer. can you explainthat a little bit ? >> that is the question we've asked fbi since the attachc

offices were open. the department of justice sense attaches over to embassies as well . they are called, i don't know. doj attachc or something like that. so the fbi said we send attaches over a have to have a different name so they came up with legal attachc which makes no sense whatsoever because it still sounds like and we are from the doj but we're not from the same unit as the other attaches are from. and a lot of us, we actually went to headquarters and said can we change the name because it confuses everybody. then headquarters is like it's too much ttrouble, you're going to haveyeto change that paperwork it's to much time, too much money. it will take years . so that is government efficiency at its best.

>> this next question comes from everybody who enjoys books. what are your next projects in terms of books you both have one in the works . >> i do plan to write some more books. but i would like to write about obscure women from history, women we don't know about and i want especially women to know about. so i actually have a short list of women i've discovered in my travels in my work. who is this woman, i've never heard of her? i want to write about those women cause i want people to realize that our history was built by women, not just men. so writing about me was one thing. writing about another woman is another literally another story. this started an mfa in creative nonfiction so that i could learn the craft of writing nonfiction about

other people because it's totally different thanwriting about yourself . >> i don't have any project as far as a book in this year or next. but i do like to write. i write a lot of offense. i write when there's mark. so january 6, i actually wrote not only an op-ed but i took my manuscript and i rewrote the last chapter. i scrapped the last chapter. i had it all into the publisher in january 6 happened and i said we're not printed yet, i got to rewrite it. when i see a spark, that's when i go out there and i've written like three or four op-ed that have been published nationally. usa today, newsweek etc. and usually it's about current events or i'm trying to tie some of the experience and

credibility into talking about certain things happening in our country will i do like to write but as far as a new book project t i've got to think about that. these three little kids are e taking all of my time and they are amazing . but i've been focused on coaching soccer and baseball lately. >> we have a couple more questions right here. >> hello. i'd like to ask you all what do you all think we can do to stop dthe division in the united states? >> i think that what we can do individually number one, we can inoculate ourselves a little bit against disinformation. and try to help others that we know get inoculated from

disinformation. i looked at it as a national securityconcern . our enemies are looking at what is happening in our country and the disinformation that is dividing us and it'sexactly what they're tryingto push . and it's working .so never in my lifetime would i have ever thought our capital would be breached. it hasn't been since 1814 and we did it to ourselves. so i feel like that is something we can do. that's and you know, everybody wants to look at politics and sometimes i do to and i want to raise up my hand and say there's nothing i can do. i'm watching the news and it's all crazy but there is something you can do and that is not give up . that is more than just voting. you love our country right now , do more than just boat. you have to. whether it is supporting a candidate that you like that believes in the values that

you have, maybe it's supporting somebody that's not here in this state. maybe it's supporting someone else. what is that so important? because it'sabout our country . i tried to tell people you can't sitthis one out . if you're a patriotic american, you've got to stay involved. and support in any way you can. >> uli would like to add to what iamy said about this being a national security issue and it is a national security issue. having lived and worked in china and china in my particular area of expertise for almost 30 years, while we are eating ourselves from within with our division , they are thrilled. the chinese are quietly going around the world and they are getting allies and they are buying raw materials and their loving the fact that we are destroying ourselves from within

that's what we have to stop. it's a national security issue . fighting with each other and not trying to understand how the other person thinks across the isle, we need to start understanding each other better and coming to some way that we can work together as a country again because if we don't, china is circling. that to me is our biggest threat. >> amy, kathy, we have time for one more question. >> actually i have a two-part question. first part is what was an example of where your trailblazing and your particular organization whether it was the military or fbi caused them to respect you as a result of your events and the second part of the question is what can

males do to better understand and be able to connect with trailblazers like your organizations are female or of other cultures. >> can you repeat the first question again for us? >> ..

i had aboutut my experience in the military was fabulous. there were some jerks, there's no doubt but by and large what i found how men inspected you, but i loved about the military was performance mattered. can you put the bomb on the target on time? you can'ta mess with that, the targets gone a look, gone. can you land $70 million jet on the back of an aircraft carrier that might and that whether? i did. can you do it? nobody else in the cockpit with me so once you've done some of these things, can you make it through survival school is the senior reporting officer, senior officer, the one who gets beat up the most?

i did it, can you do it? when you've done these things, the men who are your peers are like yeah man, she's for real. the men who are your superiors are harder to change because they've never had women peers and it's not that they are bad people, it's just that they have never trained with a woman, they've never had that experience of going the 20-mile hikeho the same next year, their whole careers they been with men from a they've always in the back of their mind or not quite sure. your peers who trained with you get it and when you rise into leadership positions you can change the dynamic of the culture. sq my firstt went to squadron and i talk about this in the book, it was a lot of antics, locker room stuff, it's

interesting. when i camehi back to higher ra, none of that happened. i wonder why because now i'm the one in charge. what we found out was the bomb is still hitting the target on time, the debts didn't turn pink. we did our jobs with all of that chrp and we did a better so that's my lesson to folks integrating women corporations and businesses and agencies, you can still be professional without the index and performance matters. >> for my career as i progressed up the ladder with the exceptions with my peers, when i progressed up the ladder, that's when i encountered men who didn't want me to be there so

like amy said in her book, when more women are in those positions, then men will look at women and go okay, we are accustomed to seeing women in these positions, they can do their job and they do and they do it well and all that nonsense will go away but i was like say, i'm pretty down with the pink jet because that will push the chinese and russians off. >> thanks, everybody. >> thank you, all. [applause] >> thanks for coming. thanks for reading books. i have to say it, and thanks, you guys are great. >> i want everybody to read this book i, this is how many questis i wanted to ask amy today and i knew i wouldm never get to them so i had to pick out a few, i'm telling you, the book is awesome, read it and i'm sure

there's a way they can get in touch with you to ask their own questions. thank you for joining us this morning in a special thank you to miss amy and ms. cassie. next at 11:30 a.m., join us at brian kilmeade on the stage. have a great day. >> there are a lot of places to get political information but only at c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you're from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happened here or here or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> if you are enjoying the book to become a sign up using the qr code on the screen.