>> watch bookkeeping out on sundays, on "c-span2", or find it online anytime at booktv.org, this television for serious readers. >> twenty is now journalist and author glenn greenwald and we will be talking about his newest book "securing democracy" and in just a minute got glenn greenwald we are the libertarian freedom says investable inbox vegas and you are here and is there an oddity here. >> is definitely an oddity,th that's obvious that i want to be perceived - i don't think there's a lot of people at the conference and at the same time, the really honest when i began writing about politics and the

concerns over the executive powers and sampling of civil liberties. and i i always had an audience t just on the left but also libertarians in the first book that i did, un secretary think cato is that i give you a flavor of how i've always managed to have these various props by the audience. >> how to do that, for i the let and right to meet. >> i think there a lot in parks where the left and right were either side like they need to advance had that the media particularly in base because i think the standard media attention like the left and the right are finding and it's amazing how many agreements they have a lot more than are observed from and right and finding his areas is like trying to build the coalition divorce my work is only been a focal point since the beginning tonight for people tuning in and saying i know that name, give us a sense of some of the issues

that you have worked on as a journalist over the years before we get to your book. >> is when i first started to do this i do not go to work at the new york times and journalism school, was a practicing lawyer focusing on constitutional law and religious monday creative log onto google blogspot and allow the bloggers to just be heard by an audience and mostly focused on civil liberties that when echo - and torture and drones and a lot of people in a fairly narrow age of issues and focus had over the years, they began to expand but he still kept that anger there anything reporting from the united states when was noted of contacting 2012, and studied and he wanted to give me to get that reported. >> nineteen. >> how did he get hold of you and if you have any previous

conversations with him. >> no given for the mine for years and not so much because of my views on privacy and surveillance so is aligned with his but i had always well a big come and local media critic with particularly critical propensity during the bush years to be too close to the u.s. team rather than adversarial with it and he found that daschle at the end of 2012, e-mail me out of the blue had no idea how you as any new at the time that they were talking about with our communications and he contacted me and was very reluctant to say much about who he was what he had to for obvious reasons and so is this very complicated encd technology & very few people were using imaging while for us to establish a relationship because of that was i was able

to talk to him to find a secure environment, he called me that when he was in hong kong that he had gone to hong kong with an enormous batch of documents that he had taken and needed to be revealed is very brave and violated part of the constitution wanted to work with me in order to reveal and wanted me to get a plaintiff like to hong kong but before you do i need you to prove to me that there's liberties something genuine in what you're saying any think about all share with you a tiny part of the document i have any sense of a top-secret document from the most in the first time that there had been a leak of any kind and needless to say i called my editor the guardians that i need to get on the plane and fly immediately to hong kong which i did 36 hours i spent 12 or 13 days there in hong kong which is when we started the reporting and the reveals some of this most

interesting fighting is the real. >> if you ever visit with him in russia. >> i did visit with him and 2016, so maybe two or three years after the reporting period he never wanted to be in russia and on the way to the latin america and theo of all maintenance regions often there there was ad task force and mot importantly by the bullied cubans and cubans and guaranteed of safe passage which he needed to get to latin america someone visited him he was hoping one dw he's married to his american girlfriend have a few children and their billingno life there d he still wants to come home but if he cannot i think he has an okay with like he's chosen. >> there's a role debate about julian assange and manning and heroes or are they villains. >> so to me, there's no real debate about one of the things that i discovered in my work as efa journalist that didn't

previously know is he truly excess weight everything in washington things done behind about secrecy and obviously no most everybody agrees that some things the government does should be private and if you there was a war and a grand jury investigation, so by and large, we ought to know what are coverages doing and they are to know very little aboutut what we are doing and thus the idea and it's become completely reversed and they know about us and there was nothing and because of the secrecy and that communism in fighting terrorism and now hundred now justifications and people in chelsea manning are devoted to the idea that hypocrisy is necessary to learn and not everything but the important things about with the government is doing and how can we have a meaningful election if we are voting for leaders and parties when we don't actually know what they're doing.

and i think long as is done responsibly, just throwing all of the year and very clear instruction about making sure that we never publish or jeopardize anybody's lives and people have forgotten with the new york times and the guardian and the largest newspaper in the world to protect the lives and other benefits and as long as it's done responsibly, then to be its heroism in the risking rulives and to inform us about things we have to know about. >> that some of yourey experiene inin undertaking your job to brazil and how did you down there. >> i've been visiting brazil quite a bit in the j late '90s and early 2000's, and is working as a lawyer in new york at the time and really we'll find those places that just really resonate with her soulin this speaks to s i wasos always overwhelmed by te beauty but then" under 2005, when i went there and i met my

now husband and nowow 17 years d at there time, the law under clintonar years, gay couples wee banned from getting green cards s brother grace writes whetherve they were the same sexual couples, nonetheless they offer the rights and we are only able to bert together there and so we have kids and i was elected member of congress but obviously we have kept 1 foot firmly planted in the united states with all of the work i'm doing. >> we are most recent book tofor fighting for freedom and justice and in brazil and how did you get in trouble with the president of brazil. >> i had actually got some clashes with him be prior to him becoming elected president andus he was a member of congress for 30 years and came to him to say ansi or green strictly into thee sense that he was on ever in the

seat of power is always kind of on the margins but got it by the media attention because he would make statements in a way that would draw attention that was unnecessary the way politicians normally spoke. much like donald trump and his style and how rare it was there's one incident in particular i believe that expressedpa the view the sentiments and he made it very clear to reference of me being gay on twitter and cause a whole ruckus. ... of whom are elected officials, but what really escalated it was in 2019 on mother's day. i was contacted by a woman named manuel. adavola, who was the vice i was contacted by a woman who was a vice presidential nominee that ran against and 2019 she

lost. then she told me she been contacted by a hacker who claimed he had an enormous archive of files that he had taken from the phones of some results most powerful judges and prosecutors, revealing serious criminality and wrongdoing. she put me in contact with him pairs of very similar storage that when i had edward that was anonymous source. claim to a gigantic archive. turned over to me would be the reporting, oslo destabilization of the government. but it went from crude insults about my sexual orientation to explicit threats of imprisonment the present his cell. deft touch of his movement. for the course of 18 months or so we became enemy numbermo one, public inmate number one. near the beginning of his presidency when he was at the peak of his power. >> host: was operation car wash? >> operation car wash was a

gigantic anticorruption pro. potentially the largest of the democratic world. that begin by accident 2014 when eight mund money laundering got caught in a pretty trivial crime laundering money through local car wash them inside city. when they up arrested him so you will not believe what i have i'm not a money launder by my fixer and moneylender for the most billionaires and all are deeply corrupt and i really am willing to help you 30 circuits for this leniency the sky mewing copy engaged in.ec at first was a moving story if it is true and everyone acknowledges ever since i came out of most talked about

corruptionno a single congressmn gets a bribe, maybe a lobbyist does not file a right form. byt systemic money going to swis bank accounts a business it's done. team of prosecutors assemble tassemble the judge there is import is the most they are born into brazilian democracy not into dictatorship and took seriously the idea we are supposed to counter the operates under the rule of law. middle of the cold war living under military regime. i was very attracted to the media at the young crusading prosecutors want to clean up their country. they began putting into prison is in this original itch. billionaires. some of the most powerful people in the country. and of course brazilians but

really everybody who's moved to see that like finally instead of putting young black drug dealers repointed the real criminals not by the hundred dollars at a time but hundreds of millions at a time. most people are going to to prison. as a result was a judge n overseeing it, a young prosecutor. 2014 -- 2018. basically run the country because no politician internationally celebrated. thousands exceed the only brazilian on the list for them the cover of magazines all over the world. the power the prosecutors and judgesng have, right anticorruption probe expanded. became a large that any person

should had let out 1 a judge and prosecutor. that's when things started to become a bit more controversial. they were selectively prosecuting for ideological reasons. now this the context in which our source came to up and said that was they had invaded. i said that we can prove they've been corrupt all along. and how they conducted the investigation projects where is sergio mauro today? >> one of the most important things the car wash and probe it did was 2017 was preparing to run for president the main obstacle he had in his path was a legendary status in brazil. he was the two-term president from her later leader the 86

approval rating who plan to run pagain in 2017. end up not running found him guilty of multiple charges of corruption. unscented him to prison made inn an eligible to run. so he did upon being elected he elevated sergio from his role as local federal judge and made him the minister of justice and public security. second most powerful position in brazil. it was kind of a unity after he became and went out shooting

claiming police investigations aimed at his children who were all adults and officials charged with corruption for a split with the movement. he went to the u.s. for a while, it made a lot of money, came back to brazil and nancy run for president and running for president. the presidential candidate was a flop. he pull that support even beforn began. he run for senate as a critic of both is now accused of being corrupt. >> let's go back to da silva, and your review i know you have a connection to him that we will get to that. was he guilty of the corruption? >> it's hard to say he never got a fair trial. there is no question the workers

party was involved in all kinds of corruption. himself will admit that he's pushed and pushed him in interviews to acknowledge that before but as he said earlier brazil is a country does not have desmet does have occasional ends occasions of corruption. the workers have been the middle of it, there's no way to get anything done unless you agree to the wheels of that corrupt machine. the workers party played that game. the question ofid how much thate personally profit from corruption is somethingngo we generally don't need an answer too. neutrality got was a show trial. who's plotting in secret with the prosecutors is what are .chroeder regardless of the evidence. i do not have the answer to that produce another's no doubt rule as government and party with wheavily interacting with the

system what is your reset while could connection? >> i interviewed for the first time in 2016. >> was he in prison at the time? >> who had hand-picked a woman from his barge of the first female president. by this point she'd gotten reelected up barely. she is not middle of the second term. economic boom he benefited from there into economic collapse. there's a serious impeachment effort under way that i was opposed to. when i interviewed him by that point is not just aimed at her but aimed at him. no one thought he'd ever end up in prison. as a country putting their greatest icon in prison. no one thought that would happen backas then but they were tryinn for the interview is in that

context people raising the possibility to be prosecuted. ironically i tried to interview and he is imprisoned during 2018. the rejected our request. could hear from him in his voice he could sway the election for that's how much of a holding on the brazilian people they denied interviews with everyone. they finally grant my request interview from prison. they'd rejected it would appeal to the supreme court. about a week or two after the interview was scheduled to interviewed people i couldn't tell them what we had by that point. he was honestly protesting his innocence.

once we began during the reporting at prove the judge had convicted him is freed from prison three months after began they reported he was very grateful. i was a first call he made when he got released in prison calling me too thank me. he was very appreciative. my husband belongs to a left-wing party that was born they kind of criticized from the left on the green party criticized the democrats. he was a part of that protested the workers parties corruption. so our political settle collection was never so close is never supporter of the workers party. when someone is reporting to try to prison that reporters being threatened with prosecution as a result the relationship is going to improve. we had a good relationship for

years so once he got out of prison. stewart witnessed the brazilian presidential election? undies is still favored? >> presidential election is october 2. we, as were taping ours three months late or so, a little (polls show the overwhelming favorite. brazil's electoral system is like france or multiple candidates run. if no candidates more than 50% of the vote the top to go to a runoff. three possible that could actually win in the first round. i think one other person is done that but it's very, very rare. he is well ahead and clearly a favor of the extraordinary given the last election was in prison. porter's return to power. what should mention the supreme court of brazil turned on your

request interview him. is there a free press in brazil? is that comparable to the u.s.? is it is a free press in brazil about the constitution brazil enacted when emerged was 21 year military dictatorship was based in c part the u.s. model for thy also use european models. onthere is more robust protectin repressive freedom and the brazilian that in the brazilian that includes source protection right cannot be obliged to disclose the identity of their sources. and the author's long then to enact the law of that time. it never has happened. so come on paper there's a-y vey robust protection. the problem has been because of the grotesque inequality of wealth and income in brazil,

that media has always been controlled bye a tiny handful f industrial oligarchy hill families of the same agenda come same ideology come the same interest to bread this metal lack of pluralism in the brazil media. that'sud changing because the internet and ease to reach audiences with theft help own a printing network. it has really improved. when i did the reporting i did they tried to imprison make come with excellent guided me. not resigning talk to you now instead of sitting in a prison is a ruling shielding it from any prosecution attempts on grounds of freee press. the region with not a lot interviews if you want to go interview i haven't heard from julie for three years is barred from an interview they will not let them be interviewed for they will have a photograph. present security the west uses

just as readily as the brazilians use it for the user back then to bar interviews. so i know it sounds drastic and something we have here in the u.s. and the uk as well. we went ashore brazilian source has he or she ever been identified? ask the federal police announced they found the source and arrested a ring of six people they claim were responsible for that hacking. the person they accused of having been at my source hasn't publicly assumed responsibility for that. i have never confirmed nor denied because i never knew the identity of my source. i have my suspicions but the source wants to say they are the ones that did it, that is the right but i'm not going to help the government by saying i believe it is or isn't. >> host: when you receive those documents in brazil, did it feel like déjà f vu all over again fm a brazilian perspective?

>> completely. i remember, most called by congress about those, i asked with the be okayju with my husbd participating in the call just because it was a call of high intensity and importance. i speak portuguese but will make strict action for new one which are not missing or misunderstanding anything but he participated a call after wewd hung out i said to david who helps me a lot, i tried to have a look, we have already been through this once before were going to have to manage we've got to this in i the habit purchase of no thinker thinking but incorrectly print the last time we did the people angry at us the there are thousands of miles when it ocean. this time, the government's going to be angry with this is literally right on the corner. this country much more dangerous, much more difficult and much riskier. at one point even joked and said

can't they get anybody other than you to get these archives? why is it always have to be you? lobster life is turned upside down he knew was about to begin. so yes, from may, it was déjà v. he was trying very hard to get me too see this was going to be more dangerous. stu and how close you get to being physically injured or going to prison? >> pretty much from the very first moment we began our reporting we are getting the kind of death threats that are not the sort of death threats public figures these days complain about on twitter or in your e-mail says you're going to get what's coming to you. these are very, very detailed death threats. here's your dress, here's the front of your k house, here's yr car, we know we are kids go to school. very, very alarming. people who had access to private data, obviously in the government the security forces.

we had to turn our house into basically a fortress. we did not leave our house for two years without armed security and armored vehicles and the like. we had a very good friend who was ' city councilwoman served on the city council with david. who had been murdered and assess a nine-month early in 2018, we took this threats very seriously. whenever i appeared in public until alec took a book fair and they may bespeak the middle of the water on about they were concerned about my security. very famous journalist bent due until that story.

>> just like in the united states right fox news a lot or left waiting have a philosophy and speak to as many people as you can for there's a right wing network in brazil that's grown very rapidly. they had invited me on several times but i had gone on it was in the middle of the reporting extremely angry in general and particularly with me. there is this journalist and about six weeks prior to my going there he had gonese on the air. essentially said that my husband and i should have her children taken away from us but we should be investigated by the adoption agency because how quick take care of our children when i'm working the stolen documents, homophobic remarks i was

extremely by that for the last met this at oh would like to pu, them on the show with you, would you mind? i said no i don't mind i wanted to confront him about these comments he made. they seated us almost millimeters away. you could not have made ahe more combustible atmosphere. i was late they did try. right in the show began i said look, for we began i'm not going to talk about any issues i need to clear the air. i said i demand you either you believe our children adopted should be returned to the shelter or apologize and retracted. he instead started essentially attacked me, refusing to retracted by the rhetoric escalated from there. took my arm and tried to hit my face. ii blocked it in the first

instance he pushed my face again this was live on the air. but also on television. needless to say the entire internetif exploded. the really significant part of it was the most prominent members of the senate, congress, the president's son. not only cheered and supported when he did, but said it should have been matured. these are people who wanted to have violence into political discourse. they give you a sense of the real tension in danger of that momentnt. and for the country as a whole. >> host: what should we here in the states care about securing democracy in brazil? >> the u.s. has always cared a great deal about brazil. the 1964 coup that led to the overthrow of the centerleft government was engineered by the

cia. the right wing brazilian generals. that's because brazil is an extremely important. country. the reserves in the middle east are being depleted. brazil is discovering the reserves and it's harder to extract. more exploitable. six largest country in the world in terms of population. it's the second largest countryy in the hemisphere. it's probably the single most important environmental resource and amazon. if you're someone who cares about the world that all cares the you need to care about the direction in which it's going. that also, brazil is one of the leaders of the developing world. it's an alliance with china,

india it was intended to be a counterweight in the world. it's really impossible to overstate strategically and in general enters are more connected than ever before because of the internet. and if one country takes an undemocratic task is very easy for that to influence other countries to follow and course. they want that media here in americus trying to figure you out. your coat tucker carlson's a mouthpiece magazine, friend of yours your hearing libertarian conventions, what have you got for us? >> you know, i think if you're a journalist and people can't figure out into it which they should or could place you, for me that's a testament to the fact you're doing yourou job. i don't see my joel is a

touching myself to any faction or being reliable spokesperson. if a white jew that become a politician or spokesman for a party. i think it ispoan very difficulo cast me as a fanatical right-wing figure involved by confronting governments in the world. i have long been a fan and bolivia i went and interviewed immediately after he was ahe victim of the two. i think what's actually happening is left, right, categories in the united states are eroding very rapidly. you said give opposing nato involvement in the war on ukraine print left or right wing idea. it's the idea of opposingin gigantic big tax monopolies from

entering the i internet. left trigger right wing idea. it's increasing more difficult to place people in these categories for journals in particular should be very hard and i'm glad that it is. so at this is your seventh book? >> my sixth book. >> where can people read you today? now that you're no longer. >> is mentioning big tech censorship is an area the sector of the media devoted to free speech that is where i tend to gravitate too. my writing on sub stack which is a place that guarantees free speech edit video s journalism n it you too competitor that's growing rapidly called rumble. i bassem on social media that sort of an obligation if you have a platform including twitter. and various conferences like these in various programs, not just tucker carlson lots of left 'wing youtube shows a podcast like joe rogan as well. so i get around. >> host: most recent book is securing democracy, my fight for press freedom and justice on

brazil, thank you for joining us on book tv precooked is a pleasure to talk to thank for having me. >> if you are enjoying a book tv sign up for a newsletter using the qr code on the screen. to receive the schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions, book festivals and more. book tv, every sunday on cspan2 or any time online at booktv.org. television for serious readers. ♪ seeking educational excellence executive director charles love recently argued black lives matter in the 1619 projects are a danger to the future of american democracy. >> 1619 project was founded to reimagine the founding of america. framing it around the first black africans were brought as slaves. what they say is, slavery and anti- black racism is endemic to

america, but for america could not have been founded. it is in the dna of america. not when out to school, it's been a while, but that you work dna cannot that is your dna. so kind at least a mite logical argument it is in the dna of america, i'm giving you your argument but let's assume i agree. why are we trying to change it? why are we trying to fight it? what good would it do future to the system because it is in the dna, it is still there. when you rebuild the system, guess was going to be in it? white racism. it is still there because it is in the dna and makes no sense. but, the other thing they say is about 14 essays are but rates essays on different topics trying to explain their problem in the process with the country and why it is a problem. they're all framed around slavery, not racism. what it says is every probably face in america today can be directly linked to slavery.

right? if education is bad, slavery. if more blacks are in jail, slavery, right? i think that is worse than what crt is pushing. it is in the schools and no one saying it's not, right question so what we do? so when the book i write a chapter every sc in the 6019 projects. and i say this is what they say that i forgot to tell the third reason it's so dangerous, it's because it's mostly true. i have to be honest, it is well written, i for the number about 90% true. you cannot instantly disputants it's not true. they paint wonderful pictures of slavery. these individual stores because people love and learn from stories, drugs and entry tell a story about a black man through all the races and found a way to make money of the rhesus whites in his neighborhood killed him just because he was making too much money is too uppity.

look up is going to be true. the problem is they master the mission and leave a lot out for you teaching this in school go to 11th guards who don't know much of this is a first learning to teach them this let me check and see if it's right they look it up, that part is true. but they don't know what you left out. they think this is all of america. what will it do? it will make for angry discredited citizens who just hate the country. >> and watch the full program at any time online@c-span.org/book tv, just search for charles love. rex watched book tv now on sunday, on cspan2 or find it online anytime at booktv.org. it is television for serious readers. ♪ >> there are a lot of places to get political information. but only at c-span do you get it straight from the source.

no matter where you are from, or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here, or here, or here, or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> pulitzer prize winning author and historian david mccullough passed away sunday at his home in massachusetts at the age of 89. mr. mccullough went pulitzer prizes for two residential biographies truman and john adams pretty received presidential medal of freedom from president george w. bush in 2006. in more than 50 honorary degrees for his last book, the pioneers was published in 2019. >> and now i'm book tv for highlighting programs from our archives with pulitzer prize-winning historian david