and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime . >> if you're enjoying book tv sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive the schedule of upcoming programs, other discussions, book festivals and more . book tv every sunday or anytime online . televisionfor serious readers . >> this is my first time at one of these events in. >> sometime since i became president but unfortunately being president puts me on the road quite a bit and it's a good thing but it keeps me awake away often times from events like this. tomorrow i fly to omaha nebraska meeting with the governor. meeting with members of congress, giving a talk. it's going to be great but the spark is that i will be able to live without a

facemask for the first time in 2 years. so in recent months i've figured out the best way to deal with that is to bring a few lollipops. the pop can last a good 20 minutes. facemask off. but anyway, it's wonderful to see you. although i haven't been here i've been with harvard more than 20 years and to see so many familiar faces and some new faces looking around here to see a whole house. you really lift our spirits and people in the building getting up your free time here on an evening. when you could be home doing whatever else, tells us we're having an impact so thank you so much for being here and it was wonderful to see, i was able to talk to most of you personally here before we started and that really lifted my spirits. for those of you who don't know or if you are familiar with the institute we are a nonprofit organization.

where a nonpartisan organization. we believe in free markets. we're here as lobbyists for freedom and of course weare really lobbyists, where advocates for freedom . we fight for freedom wherever we can. our mission statement is to develop, discover and promote free market solutions to the problems that confront society. we're mostly known for our work in global warming against alarmism. but we address a large number of issues here. our core issues over the years have been education, financial budget issues, school issues, school choice in particular an event of late we've been particularly active big tech censorship, fighting capitalism, that is imposed upon us and lately est, environmental social governance agenda. we have our government relations team in the state

legislature. we have testified, we present testimony and i believe more than 50 occasions here in the first quarter of 2022. including i believe 20 in person testimonies where most of those times we've been invited by the legislators themselves to advocate in support of free market solutions and we do that because of the support of people like you thank you once again for all your support or in person. for those of you who donated to the institute we're putting your money to good use i. donate more, will keep doing more. with that i wantto turn the mic over to jimleahy . before i do i want to say one thing . i am a student of history. i love history as much as our sessions here discuss policy and sometimes politics in today's world-especiallyfired up for the stock . >>sometime . our speakers, just the dragonslayer's.

it's as much history as policy and governance. i've purchased a book. i'm not quite through with it yet but i've read much of it. it is a compelling narrative. if he's as good a speaker as he is a writer where in for a treat. thank you all for being here, it's wonderful. >> usually i'm so loud, that works . fantastic. i swear we tested all this stuff dozens of times today. it goes wrong when the cameras go. i wanted to welcome, you might have noticed a big camera in the back, these are our friends from c-span so they're here to record this for posterity and it's also on our own live stream so welcome everybody watching and the live stream as well. will introduce our fantastic speaker tonight, this is the second time , maybe the third time larry has given a presentation at the harvard institute but t he's a native arizona, graduated with a ba

in political science and then he put that degree to use by going on the road with several different rock bands opening for such these 70s acts such as. these switch fears again and in 1976 is an a in history a phd from university of california santa barbara and he stopped at the university of dayton for almost 20 years and he's actually talk every single grade from seventh through college.so that's fantastic. he is the co-author with michael allen of the new york times number one bestseller of patriot, history of the united states which is now in its 31st printing and half 1 million copies in print. [applause] that book, that book actually remains the best-selling history textbook in america and as you might know from the title it's supposed to be an antidote to

that book by howard zinn people's history of the united states. in 2019 he founded the wild wild world of history which is not available in a full curriculum for us and world history for grades eight through 12 24 lessons with video instruction by larry schweikart himself. his other best-selling book includes seven events that made america on this and suddenly displayed on the stable, all these pulled from the major library of freedom. the harvard institute so we have seven events that made america read out from one which the author before the election. patriots history of the modern world, 2 volumes right here and the last time he was here he presented on his book reagan the american president from 2018. he's here to talkabout his latest , "dragonslayers: six presidents and their war with the swamp". please welcome to the stage larry schweikart.

>> thank you, it's great to be back here especially in a room dedicated to andrew breitbart. i only had a few occasionsto meet andrew . one of them was he went way out of his way to introduce me to the hollywood community. he brought out, posted a nice wonderful steak dinner for such people as actor adam baldwin, ben shapiro, many other people and it was just really nice of him to do that . i'm always grateful to andrew for leading the way it's interesting, you mentioned the raccoons. ohio in our home we had a nice yard with a picket fence and one day the dog is out there going crazy and there's a raccoon with his stock between the fence slacks and as i used to tell my students i walked back and i walked out and i smacked that slack

in the friends and free that raccoon so he could run off. so anyway, for those of you who don't know me, everything jim said is more or less true . i ended up teaching at the university of beijing in 1985 and i wrote anumber of books not tonight because they're boring . their academic books and they make for good yfootnotes and so forth but they don't make for great reading. i want to write books that people would read and so around 1999 or so my family and i started work on a textbook. we just wanted a book that we could use in our classes that wasn't horriblybiased . and we ended up writing a book that would come to be patriots history of theunited states and we never thought

we would sell it to a publisher . in fact we thought it would be sold out of the back of an with the plastic straws out in california. patriots history of the united states, but the publisher did pick it up and it did well in 2004 and i went on to write three other books after that and then 2010 i was on the glenn beck show and you mayremember this . this is when glenn back at an audience of 3.5 million on that. it's seven times that of cnn. it's staggering how many people glenn beck reaches and i gave him a copy of patriots history and his response was do i know this book? anybody who's read this book knows it's a great book and the proper response is this is a great book so i knew he had read the book . i can call four days later from glenn at home and he says larry, when you're on the show i had read the book. i always read the guests books, i read it over the weekend .

this is a great book. and his endorsements, he puts it on his desk every night of the show and talk about it three or four or five times a night with little yellow) and immediately went to the top of amazon and then the following week i got a call from the publisher and said larry, your book is going to be on the new york list. way to go, yay. and then i get a call week later and said larry, your cookbook is to be in the top 10 of thenew york times . then i get a call and i can hear him in the background and i can hear the champagne corks popping. i know it's glenn back. and they said larry, your book isgoing to be number one on the new york times list . you don't get it, is going to be number one on the new york times list. that's great. you don't get it, it's going to be intarget, costco, walmart .

our book is going to be in walmart? thank you jesus. it meant i was writing books everybody could read it is what my goal was. and so over the years gone on to write a number of these other books and most recently i started thinking about the swap obviously in the context of donald trump and what he went through in not just 20/20 but what he went through through his whole administration in terms of people undercutting him and subverting him and working against him from hisown attorney general down . so i thought trump is not the only one. there have been other presidents who had swap problems and so when i started the book i was looking at six different presidents with six different stories and as i began to put it together i realized we're always talking about the same thing, always wants were interrelated so even though i

start with lincoln the story starts a little bit before him with the most important american that you probably never heard of and that's martin van buren. martin van buren rated a modern-day two-party system that we have now, prior to that we only had one party and it was called the democratic republic. i know some of you think this is what we have today but it really was called the democratic republic and you know what, you know what that period was called? it's called the era of good feelings because there was so little animosity andrew jackson wrote for the presidency in 1824, loses in a corrupted bargain. martin band aside he's going to get jackson but the story is a lot deeper. he says you see what van buren was trying to do was to create a political party that could keep a civil war from happening. he would do this making sure that slavery could not be attacked even as the northern

and midwestern states began to add more and more senators and representatives to congress where sooner or later they would act on slavery. how do we keep this from happening van buren asked and his answer was money. we willbuy these people off . even if you're an anti-sleeper from pennsylvania, we will give you a government job if you just shut up and follow along with the system and we called it the spoils system or h&h and as a result van buren didn't get this because his goal was to keep the federal government small and states stronger. what he had done inadvertently was to create a system in which the federal government again to grow with every single election because you had to get away jobs to get elected. and by the way, the most powerful job and this will shock you in 1830 was a postmaster general of the

united states and mommy, i want to be postmaster general? no way back then everybody wanted to be postmaster general because you have 8500 jobs you've got to get away so whoever the president appointed as postmaster general, i had a lot of power. so here comes the whigs and there on the same field as the democrats. so the whigs come along, there on the same playing field. the only way that can compete is to give away more jobs in every election promise jobs, they promised more jobs so government starts to grow every single election and you know, nobody notices this until 1850 because part of van buren strategy was to make sure that the presidency remained in the hands of someone who would not was not

hostile to slavery northern man southern principle is the way it was worded . so you either get a democrat or a northern man southern principle to win an office from 1828 until 1860 then in 1860 you've got a problem. because you've got a northern man of northern principal who does not approve its of slavery and even though lincoln says i will not act on slavery, he can't help it. he's going to act on slavery because he's going to appoint the federal marshal. he's going to appoint federal judges who will rule in runaway slave cases. he's going to appoint customs commissioners who may allow free black spot the ships that are ducking in southern points. he's going to appoint. >> masters who are going to allow in abolitionist material. so lincoln's election caused this civil war that van buren had hoped to avoid owthe cause

of van buren's own system. lincoln comes in and one of the first things he notices his behalf this army of jobseekers lining up down the street. at the time he ran the government with two secretaries. lincoln ran the whole government with two li secretaries and literally people could come inside the whitehouse and just stand there and form along line all the way down the block waiting to talk to the president about jobs . when he wasn't busy inciting a war. so lincoln could not deal with the full swap because his first job was to deal with the slaves. kind of needed the spoil swap to defeat the slave swap which he did. hewas only one of the six presidencies completely successful . he did this to the slave swap but the spoil swap was still around and continue to grow. it got worse. after the civil war you had all these veterans who are

now claiming benefits by ouwriting their congressman say i was in the civil war, i need all these benefits and within 10 years after the civil war the number of veterans claiming benefits from the civil war would decline because like they guide, that didn't happen. it grew as more and more people suddenly have magic memory restoration and they remember they were in the civil war and they got wounded or whatnot and the goals begin to grow crazy. so you literally have thousands and thousands of new jobseekers descending on washington with each new administration. one author of the day said the trains going out of dc would be fall and the incoming trains would be full with different people, all of them seeking to take the jobs of those who just left . well, grant didn't do a whole lot about this but the next, and neither did j but the next guy, a guy named james garfield ran on the program

of defeating the spoils swap. and he was going to do it with one small problem, he got killed and you know who killed him customer a spoiled slumber. charles shot him and said i'm stalwart and now arthur is president and see, chester arthur was thought to be favorable to the spoil swap but he's one of those rare people in washington that when he gets in office he has a change of heart to do the right thing. and he actually begins to attack the spoil swap but arthur had another problem. price disease kept him from serving his second term so he's out and the mental balls to the second of my presidents, grover cleveland and i love cleveland . i look at him as from the first. first got to win ndan election, lose an election but cleveland won the popular vote all three times and he comes in and takes on this

spoil swap hammer and tongs. he is in there standing up late at night in the white house reviewing all these claims for veterans benefits from people who work veterans and throwing them out and vetoing them say i'm not going to accept this and we can got thousands and thousands of these. so he finally worked with congress to create something called the pendleton civil service act and this supposedly reformed the spoils system. you know what happens in washington when they perform anything, it gets worse so they reform and they took about 10 percent of the total federal employees away from the president, put it in the hands of possible service commission where you would take a test and however you placed in a test is what job you would be eligible to certain. but the unseen ramifications of this was now the president had so many fewer jobs to personally give away, now they had to give away groups

of jobs to lobbyists, two different industries. so in our time you'll get a candidate going out at patterson air force base in ohio saying i believe in a strong defense and it's all the guys from raytheon and lockheed and. [indiscernable] i believe in protecting the environmentand they'll go gay , they all know it means money coming into their copper what pendleton did was await government jobs on the small very gigantic level and that government growth i talked about all of a sudden it started to increase exponentially. meanwhile, there's another swap raising its ugly head and that was the trust swap and the trust swap consisted of big business company combinations very much like twitter and google and these types of giants today,

facebook and teddy roosevelt was determined to do something about it. hiyou all know that but you may not know what his reasons for doing something about it was he feared the media. he feared the yellow press would create such a firestorm not just against the big businesses but against all businesses and he believed this in his heart that he was protecting all business from this mob that would be raised to radicalism by the yellow press . it's interesting, i like teddy in a lot of ways and i don't like in alot of ways . you can't help but like guy who's in a cushy government job, assistant secretary of the navy. war breaks out and he resigns and goes to raise a volunteer cavalry unit that wants to get into action and wants to seek combat and not only does he do that but he fights, not only does he fight but when and not only does he win but

he's awarded the medal of honor and as president to negotiate a peace between japan and russia and is awarded a real nobel peace prize. can you imagine any modern presidents receiving both medal of honor and a nobel peace prize western mark roosevelt's one-day failure, he never ran a business. i'm convinced that had teddy roosevelt the cause he succeeded in everything else he did . it had just run a business and i'm not talking about his cattleranch because that was a fantasyland . he had other people run it, he didn't meet payroll or worry about laying people off . i'm convinced if he had run a business, his antitrust activity would have been different. i don't know how but i think itwould have been different . the one trustee does not take on was the media trust because which at the time wasn't that big but over time in our time it's gotten to the monstrous. so government continue to

grow. agencies continue to grow. new agencies such as the fbi and cia were added. so by john f. kennedy's time in office, he is confronting a cia swap and kennedys problem, his task is that he needs to get rid of the cia swap but he needs the cia too much to get rid of it. he needs it for cuba. he needs it for laos and vietnam or as lyndon johnson would say not. and you know, one time when kennedy comes into office there's 600 americans in south vietnam and when he's assassinated there were 16,000. so i do not buy this notion okay, but he's going to get us out of vietnam. he trained line you have there from 16 to 60,000. that's not the trendline

getting out. so katie doesn't trust the cia. he feels betrayed by them yet he still needs to use them on many occasions and that's why i consider him the first failure in our group of six because he doesn't do anything to bring the cia to him. ronald reagan of courseruns on a three-way pledge. wanted to defeat the soviet union , to develop that the american, economy and three to reduce the power and size of government but unfortunately for reagan ease the government, needs a business in order to accomplish the other two. so almost like kennedy he finds that he needs the agency he wants to get rid of too much to get rid of them. and i'll just share one anecdote in my book reaganand the american president . stockman was a true believer in reducing the size of government. they were sending out memos to all of the departments. how are you coming on reducing the size of your department, how are you coming on reducing your

budget and he gets one letter and one memo back i found in the archives, the guy said well, and this is god reagan pointed believed in reagan's agenda the guy said he already has spent all this year's budget and we spent part of next year's budget to . so i don't think we're going to get around to cutting anything anytime soon. it was really an amazing admission that onceover the swap it's darn near impossible to roll back the swap so by 1984 , reagan had pretty much given up on the third point of his platform promises which was to reduce the size of government and he succeeded in the other two but he pretty much had to give up on the third one, reducing the bureaucracy. one very important thing happened between kennedy and reagan. congress had been hunting and creating these committees, these bureaus, these administrative agencies and empowering them once they got in place, congress just let

him go and basically sq any oversight over any of these bureaucracies for administrative what we then call the administrative state at all. just let them go. so it then fell to the courts to try to handle these. but unfortunately what started to happen was that the court said well, congress has set up this agency. congress gave us these powers, are we to say that congress is wrong? they basically let the agency to find their own missions and even set up their own private police forces in some epa and other organizations. so that was a major change in the bureaucracy between kennedy and reagan. finally we get to try and trump came in and basically gets all four of the other swaps.

he gets the spoil swap, gets the media swap, gets the cia swap . the state swap and trump's appointees don't help him out a whole lot jeff sessions especially who was probably the worst single appointee in american history . i have to go back to find anybody worse than jeff sessions so trump finds himself undercut at every point. he will order documents to the unclassified, nothing happens . and appointee to the trump state department said they would send out memos to the embassies and the response from the embassy was where not going to do that for this reason or thatreason and you could never follow up and fire these people . so in the end, i have lincoln, cleveland and roosevelt asked successes or partial successes in draining their swaps and i have kennedy and reagan and trump as other failures or partial failures in draining their

swap. with that this is always the best part of the night when we do the q&a because i feel after rock 'n roll larry i go back, this is a flamingdrum solo where i almost burned down the convention center . let's just go ahead and open this up to questions and i'll just take it as it goes from there. you're not on. there you go. >> hello larry. >> we know this state is a behemoth now. and we know that personnel is power. we know that the top level are going to do or not do what is required of them either president. what i would like you to

comment on is below, starting at the high levels of civil service and going down there is a certain culture of people who are hired and the fact that they are rewarded for finding new ways to add a little bit of power fand find new things to regulate and control, how does that work and how bad is it? >> it's portable. what reagan said was the closest thing to eternal life on the planet was a government agent and you're absolutely right. you can change out the heads of these agencies but how much does that affect the culture down and we saw this when the fbi did not. we kept hearing people chant john kennedy telling us it's only a few bad apples at the top but the rank-and-file

fbi,they're fine. no, their corrupt down to the stem. all the way through . if any of them were not corrupt then they would have stood up and said i'm blowing the whistle.i'm going to say this is wrong. it's not according to our regulation and i'm going to call out jim comey and mccabe and all these guys. that didn't happen. there's a total culture change that isrequired in addition to changing of personnel and i have some suggestions at the end as to how we mightaccomplish that . over here, yes, sir . >> the thing that amazes me during the four years of the trump presidency is every day there was a scandal . they would call him not see an communist and behead him and everything else russia, russia, russia . so what was the basic premise

of these republicans and democrats that hated trump hating him? was it because he didn't pay his dues and he went from tycoon president or was it some people that i talked to are liberals, they can't tell me why they ate trump and it always comes down to tweets . >> mean tweets. okay, that's a great question . trump represented and i think by far the banning is the best single analyst on this entire thing. atother people have written about it. i don't know if you know him, the guy is a phenomenal writer but he represented a clash of the country class versus the ruling class. and that is to say of the elite inside dc, there's a book by charles murray after losing ground, it's called apart. phenomenal book and it murray shows that based on wealth income and based on iq and he

used school of graduation as a proxy for iq. he said you could go through suburbs of washington dc and if you didn't have somebody picking up yourlaundry for you or giving you the starbucks coffee , you would never interact with a single person who wasn't in your income and iq school level. he said single lot every single person on that block had come out of an ivy league school and that's got to change. asu is no great shape, university of montana is nothing fantastic but 10 people from those schools would be better than the he idiots we have out there now so you got this the culture that is a problem. now, from other buttons and this one i love talking about. hethis is why the jonah goldberg and the chris hayes,

these guys are all such trump peters and mytheory is this . they never were conservative. what happened was they would assume a conservative position in parties and in speeches for the heartland institute or young americans or whatever they would go and make these conservative sounding speeches up till trump because they knew what he was going to change and so at the end of the night they could go back to their liberal buddies and cocktail parties and say it would be nice if roe versus wade was overturnedbut we know that's never going to happen . they clinked glasses and walk off and here comes trump, he says no, we're going to actually do the things i campaigned on, change this country and that hit him like a brick wall . all of a sudden the threat was that policies were actually going to change and

they could no longer go in front of these people and pretend to be supporting conservative positions if it actually meant they were going to have to defend real conservative change so i think that was anissue . >> there was a surprising to me a decision in florida that ruled against the cdc and the mandates and if you think about how far the swamp is going against the cdc is now part of it. but it seems as though this is a significant decision against the state so what are your thoughts on the significance? >> today is the birthday but we really need to celebrate yesterday which was freedom day in america. what i would say about that. i would urge you to watch the podcast

of a guy named robert barnes who is a lawyer on locals, the barnes and he's been protecting the outcome of these legal cases almost exactly as they turn out and he's said the osha case would be ruled against biden he said the military case would not because for so longthere was a precedent . you go into the military, you go overseas, you get all these shots so it was goingto be hard to overturn that . you have all these liberals out there screaming today, a judge in florida overturn the will of the people. you mean, kind of like roe versus wade? so it was a massive, massive shift. the ground is shifting and not just bare, across the board. desantis today, he's taking on disney and they say you guys have existed for what, 87, 68 is when disney was founded.

if existed for four years on the largess of on the taxpayers. you don't pay all the taxes you should, you have total economy in your little read the development. we're going to change all that and the heads are just exploding here . so i do think bannon is right. i don't agree e that were going to see a 100 seat turnover but i do believe that we're on the verge of a groundswell and i just tweeted out walls other.it's a play on my movie other walls to fall. look me up on walls other and i tweeted an article this afternoon about this groundswell is not just here, it's going on across the world. people rising up, look at what happened in hungary. these are saddam hussein level numbers where the ballot says saddamhussein, tellme and structure my family .

and but this is everywhere across the world, i know it's a catchphrase butthey are rising up . the international rise of all these people is turning marxists on its head because they are rising up for freedom against the commonest forces and it's astounding. >> that tomorrow, i'm sorry, you're done o. >> i want to give the microphone to a crazy person like me you have a new twitter w follower, i'm following you if you want to follow me back . so quickly, i was in springfield this morning and i spoke for three minutes of the illinois state board of education and i told them they should get rid of it because it's a wasteful group. with that in mind i was hoping donald trump would have eliminated the department of education n.

nothing really happened so. >> let me say this, when you say nothing happened, that's a win for us. it's strange to sound, if you ot put in a whole bunch of bureaucrats and at the end of four years and say nothing y. happened i gauthier. we wonayfour years . >> i was hoping i may trump supporter but i was hoping he would get rid of the department of education and why didn't he get rid of the department of education? >> why didn't he get rid of half a dozen departments, he was hamstrung from the beginning . when it came in and amanda said she estimated there were 60 maga people in the entire administration. the president alone appoints 3000. out of those 3000 you've only got 60 maga dedicated people

it's hard to change this way. to get rid of an apartment you have to have a department head who is committed to getting rid of that department and that's very hard to do. you're going to have to set up a ceo getting rid of ford automobiles. i think that would have been even a bridge too far for trump to get rid of the whole cabinetlevel agency . but reagan could have done it but he didn't have the political class to do all three of those things . trump comes in again, he's going to have to come in with a flamethrower. and i mean, with an exterminator right behind him . because ecthey're only going to get one s.more shot at this. if we do it wrong next time we probably aren't going to getanother shot . yes sir. rr>> thank you for tracking 200 years of history, what about present-day? how would you describe the

power structure inwashington, who's running the place ? >> i do not believe biden is running anything and by the way on my twitter i have always names, biting is the rutabaga, the demented perverts and nancy pelosi is toxic, mitch mcconnell this yurtle. i don't think biden is running anything. i don't think obama is running anything because he's too lazy. i don't think he has the energy or the time. he wants to play video games and swim so i think it's a call. ron claimed is the head of one called group. there's green lack of noodles out there who are in charge of another called group and you through each interest group and they're all vying for biden's mind and kind of the last thing he hears going up thedoor is what he mumbles

when he repeats his word salad of nonsense . so that's who's running washington. you have a whole bunch of rino republicans who are committed to keeping the swamp in place and they're all bought off by most of them by big pharma. if you wondered why we have four doses is because we have people in washington making a ton of money off of big pharma and never once want to mention ivermectin or one of the things that might mediate the disease so you got the rhinosin there and that's why i think the next two elections are critical . if the seven trump endorsed senate candidates all win, it will be a stretch but they can do it. if they win that would change the republican makeup by 14 percent. that one election by 14 percent. if you bring those seven in their committed and they do what they say they're goingto do , no guarantee there with

doctor oz or vance, you'll know but they're better than the other guys. if they actually do what they say and they come in, you can then see the next salon of the tent cruz and rick scott's and marsha blackburn moving on their side and it's a window that begins to pull the whole senate back to the right and then in 2024, now you've got a shot. now you've got seven or eight seats and if the way is big enough there's not a seat in the world that's safe. the democrats are just not figuring this out. political or the hill they alternate the back avenues for the democrats and they said we're looking at a wipeout and we're looking at potentially in 24 a vetoproof majority in both houses. this is for lefties saying this. so i personally think we will get somewhere in the

neighborhood of 40 seats but biden's decline is sure. it's not going to change. he's in the 30s and at least three poles, will be in the high 20s by election time 2024, maybe even lower and that should be in position to wipe them out. just across the area . >> tuyou said ivermectin and i said this video is going to be banned from you to and i remember everything does this from you, we will be fine. we had a questionover here, start with dan . >> my name is dan robinson i was wondering how you might have considered the history of jimmy carter towho i think was i consider him to be one of the great d regulators of our time . >> it wasn't carter that the regulated.

all that therevolution had been put in place actually back in the late part of the nixon administration when you look at airlines, when you look at trucking or gas . in my book reading the american president i have a chapter on carter called the worst president ever with an asterisk. and then at the bottom of the page i say until barack obama but now i have to revise it and say until barack obama and joe biden and mine before him is jesus carter cause these so pompous. phe's just perfect. i don't consider him to be a very good president at all. i think he's a disaster and whatever deregulation was there was not his doing. he inherited it from others. >> i have a question. you know who tried to reduce human resources by paying down smaller? >> i get what you're saying. this is asuggestion by steve band which is good .

i give three measures for hope here. first, what do we do about the swamp? this is bannon's suggestion. you buy these people out. you buy out their contracts. you say i will pay you 20 percent more of your remaining salary to get out and retire now. it's going to cost a lot of money but it's a one-time investment because once that person is out of that job, you close the job. it's no more open for business. you'll never staff that job again and believe me you in could get rid of a lot of washington if you were to buy out thesejobs and shut them off . that's suggestion number one. number two, you've got to get the bureaucracy out of dc t . to get the administrative state out of dc and trump actually started to do this. he began moving some of the bureau of land management and bureau of the interior offices on nebraska and farmington, i say put them all in farmington new mexico,

deliver hear from them again . anybody been to farmington? it's a uranium mine. that's all you need to know. farmington is a uranium mine. move these offices out, get them into the interior of america. police but that will do is get them around more ordinary americans more of the time so that they see the impact of their policy. they see nothing back in dc. they're totally insulated in a complete echo chamber and the third thing we've got to do is vote in maga oriented people .. >> .. . >> certainly seem like you had a deep state operation, the fbi

ran the whole thing against nixon. what was that all about with respect to what we know about the trump, you know, what happened with trump? >> that's a great question on watergate. i'm going to give you an answer that very few historians would ever give you, and that is we don't know. the best guess i have is the explanation that said that john dean found out that the democrats had an address book of a call girl in their possession, and it was his then girlfriend, soon to be his wife, maureen dean. her name was in this book, and it was dean who authorized the break-in, and it was dean who told them what to look for, which is why they're nowhere near the chairman of the democratic party's office. they're over in an office back in the back part which happened to have that diary. they knew exactly where to go. so i think that -- and dean then

lied to nixon about it and said this is a national security issue, and nixon said we have got to cover it up then; right? so they went on and got the cia to intervene with the fbi and say this is national security, and then it completely went to heck from there. nixon is not innocent. he obstructed justice. you know, he should have gone to jail, but he was not guilty of the original crime that everybody thinks he was guilty of, which is ordering the break-in, i don't think. that's my take. >> [inaudible]. >> i have seen those. some of them can be pretty big. i'd watch out for those big ones. >> that was the second break-in and not the first. the second one. >> that's right. but he apparently had directed both of them as far as -- >> he was the go to guy, but he didn't put together the --

[inaudible]. the first one he did, that was perfect. they were in and out. >> it was hunt that put it together. >> yeah, hunt. >> i have a question. your book title, let me ask you about the 2020 election. i mean in 2016, nobody thought trump would win. >> right. >> well you did. i don't think trump did. >> that's debated. it depends on who you talk to in his inner circle on to whether he thought he was going to win. >> right. my point being that hillary was going to be the third obama term. the swamp is excited. they had their plans, all the things they were going to do, and trump wins. trump is going to oppose the swamp. he does things as you outlined, moving bureaucracies out so they will quit, hopefully, things like that. >> right. >> my personal feeling and i think this is shared by a lot of people in this room, and this is going to be sure to get this

thing banned from youtube for sure because i want to make sure the algorithm hits it all; right? >> i could sing, and that would guarantee -- [inaudible]. >> the 2020 election was a little unusual, i would say, but after all of that, i started to think to myself, and i think a lot of people thought to themselves, there's no way they are going to allow trump to win. the media was against them. they didn't report the hunter biden stuff. the article how they fortified the election. they think they saved the country. if trump had a second term, then the swamp was in trouble. they could be drained. they were holding him off, two impeachments, all this stuff. i always thought to myself, there's no way the swamp was going to leave this up to the people. they weren't going to take the chance that he would get re-elected. now, is that a conspiracy theory? is that crazy talk? >> not at all.

time magazine came out and laid it all out exactly what they were doing. i wrote in how trump won, i finished the book my part of the book in about october of 2016. i said trump's going to win the election with 306 electoral votes. the final was, what, 320 -- 300, i was off by 6. i said he wins between 300 and 320 electoral votes. he won with 306. that's what it was. i was sure based on the voter registration numbers i was seeing in ohio, florida, north carolina, i was sure he was going to win. i really didn't think they could steal it because i thought that trump was going to get at least 10 million more votes than he got before, and guess what? he got 13 million more votes than before. right? so what happened? well, i'm from arizona. they did an audit which nobody wants to talk about in terms of the actual findings. they found -- i will give you

one data point, 17,000 duplicate ballots. i guarantee you all 17,000 of those were for biden. but we can't prove it because you can't violate secret ballots. you can't call up somebody and say how did you vote; right? but when you've got 17,000 duplicates and biden wins by 11,000, and that's just one metric, and there were dozens of other metrics totalling at least 57,000 more votes, just in maricopa county, not even in all of arizona. we know that the county was [inaudible] simultaneously in five big cities. gee, how does that happen? but i would say it went even further. i think there was a conspiracy early on, if you want to use that term. i'm going to blame mike pence. i think mike pence was involved in this, and i think that he convinced trump -- i'm a big supporter of federalism. trump was the most federalist president we have had since washington because his first

response to every single issue is, this is congress's job. they should fix it. second time, this is congress's job -- third time, this is congress's job. if they don't fix it, i will. but he always tried to get the right department or the right agency to do their job. he hoisted as much as he could off on to states to get them to do their job. here comes the china virus. i refuse to call it covid. here comes the china virus. and pence and his chief of staff go to trump and say you know what mr. president, this would be a great opportunity to practice federalism. why don't you put control of the administration, the china virus in the hands of the states. trump said -- that's his inclination. he said sure, that's a good idea. unfortunately, do you know what this did? no state had the medical wherewithal, the exexpertise and

the medical examiner's office, the health office to compete with the cdc or the nhi. what happened -- or the nih or what happened? all of them went to look to the cdc or the nih, what do you think, and dr. fallacy was right there to tell them what to think. i think pence planned this. it turned out that the power was handed over to dr. fallacy through playing on trump's federalism. if trump had retained the power himself, i guarantee you after two months, this is baloney. we're going to open the country back up and he would have issued executive orders to that effect. would they have been overridden? i don't know. would the legislature have passed the laws? i don't know. i guarantee you that things would not have evolved the way they did and therefore added that layer on to the other things you mentioned, jim, all these horrible things that were going on which i think the thing that sunk him, was the downed economy as a result of the china

virus. even with the fraud, he would have beat the fraud if not for the china virus. >> -- [inaudible] going to be asked by our corrupt media do you think the 2020 election was on the up and up? one, do you think the 2020 election was on the up and up? and two, how should ron desantis answer that question? >> i don't believe it was on the up and up. i think we have abundant evidence of fraud. we don't know who it benefitted, but the chances are overhemming that it benefitted -- the chances are overwhelming that it benefitted biden. i don't think biden got 81 million votes here in rwanda or the soviet union, he didn't get that many votes. i'm sorry. that would be my answer. >> is that what a republican candidate should say? >> yes. i think you will be surprised at how many times if you just stand up -- this is one thing trump taught everybody, if you just stand up and fight back and desantis has internalized this, right, lake out in arizona running for governor, has

internalized this. you ought to see this woman on the media. she destroys the media. you start standing up, and they will back down, but you've got to stand up first. no rock and roll questions. [laughter] >> i was going to ask this question before you went into all this. how do we -- especially in illinois and we call it crook county. >> sure. >> there's a lot of potential for election fraud. >> yep. >> how do we fight this? i was an election judge at the last election. i think we need more conservative judges to be involved. what else can we do? it is really very frustrating. >> in a state like illinois, you are behind enemy lines, so you are going to have to fight it out, one foxhole at a time, but every foxhole is important. get as many people on the election boards as you can, oversee as many -- you start working your way back into cook county, before you know it, you will have the immediate suburbs,

and before you know it, you will have some of the interior of the cities. folks, hispanics are coming over to the republican party like you cannot believe. it is one of the most amazing boomerangs in political history that the democrats who encouraged all these illegals -- even illegals who are coming in according to the polling are trending conservative because they come from countries like el salvador and guatemala that are hell holes and they want a part of the american life, you know. what's happening is i think we can take these back. we're already winning over the hispanic vote. we're very slowly making inroads into the black vote. we can do it. but it is a [inaudible]. who are you again? >> i'm james taylor, president of the heartland institute. >> you're president through fire and rain. >> that's right. getting back to your book, one

thing that fascinated me, and you touched on this in one of your comments when you said that three you considered successes and three that you considered failures, and sequentially, the first three you examine were successes, and the last three were failures. >> right. >> if you flip them around, how successful do you think those first three would have been in the day and age of the last three? and how successful would the last three be if they had the circumstances of the first three? really, what were the circumstances? was it more circumstance? or was it more tactics and battlefield brilliance? >> that's an ahistorical question. you give the confederates, ar 15s, do they the steadfastness to fight for them. i think if you put him in the

war of the swamp, he probably would have done better even cleveland. cleveland was a much narrower man, not a big thinker, but he was absolutely focused on the task at hand. you want him fixing your plumbing. you want grover cleveland fixing your plumbing. tr was very much a man of whatever struck him at the time. if the swamp that trump faced had struck teddy roosevelt, he would have fought back probably even harder than trump and gotten very bloody, and he might have been impeached and taken out, removed, right, because he would have fought in a much different way. reagan's style was such that he would have tried conciliation as much as possible with the south, but i think in the end he would have ended up doing the same thing. we're not going to back down on this points of american freedom. so, you know, you get into these historical questions, i feel like the time ring, you know, jumping back and forth with time, but that's my best shot on

ahistorical questions. >> any other questions? right here? >> one of my concerns is that people are so clueless today, after church at the coffee hour, i talk to these people -- friends, very successful people, they don't want to talk about anything other than their golf game. >> uh-huh. >> we live in a retirement village right now, people that are successful, they don't want to talk about anything serious. so i'm really concerned, and as we know, universities today, only 4% of the faculty are republicans. >> meaning only 2% are conservatives. >> people that do get newspapers, the chicago tribune has turned left. i'm concerned about how clueless people are. i think the republicans will do

well, but the only one reason is when they get gas, inflation, that's the key issue. that's going to defeat democrats. >> yep. >> that isn't because people are informed. >> they're informed. the pain at the gas pump is a form of information. that's a very powerful form. let me take your question this way. you're familiar with the declaration of independence. >> yeah. >> and you're familiar with the line that jefferson said that as long as -- i can't quote it exactly. as long as these evils are tolerable, mean will tolerate these evils -- men will tolerate these evils. in other words, people won't rise out of their comfort level until it gets extremely uncomfortable, which is why i want biden to stay in office for two more years because i want to be -- incredibly uncomfortable. people will say we will never put another democrat in office in our entire life.

in terms of the retirement village and whatnot, don't forget in 2010, it was the retirees who stormed into the tea party. this is one of the problems was that the tea party was an older movement and didn't have a lot of youth in it to kind of take over. so, you know, i'm no spring chicken, and i'm pretty active. >> hi, larry. >> hi. >> i'm very concerned again. i want trump to win again and get back into the race, but he had such poor advisors when he was in the white house, people around him betrayed him. he seems to be surrounded with people again that might be informing him to do the wrong things. he's endorsing some candidates for senate that are really bad. >> i push back on that. i was not a vance fan when he first came out. the more i began to look at him, i realized he's too corrupt.

he's part of the swamp and the same thing with higgins. dr. oz was far from my favorite candidate, but, you know, it's what they said about democracy and how democracy is the worst government in the world except for all the others, and dr. oz is the best candidate given the others; right? i am more impressed with people who used to walk the wrong path, like kari lake who voted for obama who now is consistently not only saying the right thing but pushing back. it's not just saying the right thing so that -- in front of donors. it is are you saying the right thing in front of the tv cameras? i think you will see vance and oz and some of these other guys, i hope it is blake masters in arizona, form this [inaudible] of maga senators that's going to be very powerful. there are a lot of things about a lot of these people i don't like. the thing in tennessee with what's her name morgan or tegas,

that was a bad pick? people who supported robby starbuck, he had a whole lot of issues. he was not a voter in that district. i could ask any one of you here and some of you have run companies, how many people do you know that you can appoint to positions that you can absolutely trust and who will carry out your goals and objectives? most of us can't point to more than three or four people. right? how many of those are competent? right? if it's my friends, maybe one or two; right? you're stuck relying on people's advice whom you don't know all that much, but hey, they're in the republican party. supposedly they have your best interest at heart. and so who is he getting advice from now? i don't know. but i have a feeling as we get closer to the election, it is going to be two people, don and eric. those are the only ones i want

him taking advice from, other than maybe steve bannon, if he can behave. that's what i have to say about that. >> another question over here? >> the question i have, larry, is if trump were president, do you think putin would have invaded ukraine? >> no, not a chance. not a chance. but here's another interesting thought question, maybe -- and i know we're enduring some horrible stuff, and i know what biden is doing is just terrible. but maybe it's better that trump wasn't in with a lukewarm senate and a lukewarm house. maybe we need to refine these people for another four years so that when they come through the -- you know, the story about gideon in the bible and how he was sent down to fight an army, and he had 30,000 men, and god said, that's too many. you need to get rid of them because they are not committed, and he gave them a test. had them go draw water out of

the lake. if they lap it -- i forget the story, if they lap it, they stay. if they put it in their hands, they go. i forget, so he gets rid of 27,000 of them. he said you still have too many. you have 3,000. you need to get rid of those. the point is, an army of lambs led by a lion is far more powerful than an army of lions led by a lamb. if we can just -- lemon took the soviet union with 20,000 devout followers, a nation of 160 million people, only one third of the americans believed in the cause in the american revolution, and look at what they did; right? it's not numbers. it's dedication and willingness to go fight and engage the enemy. and we get the right people in there, it is doable. i'm not saying it is going to happen, but i'm saying it is doable. >> i don't like the question i'm

going to ask now. >> i don't like the answer. >> okay. a lot of people who i know who are sort of hidden in this area, who voted for trump and who supported his positions feel that his ability to be elected is diminished by his personality. they are turned off by his nastiness is the way they put it and worse. so my question is, what are his prospects? or is somebody like desantis or somebody who is a trump follower -- >> a trump light? >> yeah, with -- who can tell you, you know, you don't want to throw tomatoes at him because he's said nasty things. >> there's an old saying, you can't have [inaudible]; right? you can't have jim brown and

have him have sprinter speed. every great person and every person who achieves something great usually does so in spite of a handicap, not because of their -- i mean moses had a speech impediment, and this is the guy you are going to choose to lead the jews? really? i don't think that aspect of trump is as big a deal as many -- i think it is an excuse for a lot of people. i don't think -- this is why i want the pain to continue, folks. i want biden to continue in office and ratchet up that pain. i hate saying that for my fellow americans, but you need to feel -- youre alcoholics. you need to get to the bottom before you're going to say i'm a drunk and i need to reform. >> [inaudible]. will the democrats put somebody in there who will be a nice guy

or gal and will win votes on that basis? >> it won't work. it won't work because they're now too saddled with inflation. they're the party of war. they're the party of covid and masks and vaccines, all of the bad -- look at the polling. this polling is staggering. trump is defeating desantis in some polls by 50 points. it is not even close. he's beating biden badly, sometimes by 8 or 9 points. now, what is it going to be like in 24? it is going to be -- they know it, folks. they know this. they know they are teetering on the brink. why haven't they removed biden? harris. because nobody, even the democrats, nobody wants harris in there. so mark my words, if you see harris go, watch out, the 25th amendment is coming for old joe. until harris goes, he's safe, and some people think he appointed her just for that

reason. but also remember this, that the next veep has to be confirmed by both the house and the senate. and so it has to be done quickly if they are going to get rid of her and put in somebody like mayor pete; right? that's the guy they want. that's the guy they want. mayor pete is the next in line, doesn't have a chance against trump, not a chance. they're increasingly painting themselves in this narrower and narrower corner as you see with the disneyland stuff, that they're willing to go to the [inaudible] for pedophiles for pete's sake. they need to rename splash mountain groomer mountain, or something like that. >> something you said triggered him to say something which triggered a bunch more questions. we have one back here. >> i'm here as long as you need me. i get paid by the hour. [laughter] >> thank you. thank you, larry, this is just

fascinating. let's go eight time zones to the east. what do you think putin's swamps are or even further east, what do you think chi's swamps are? -- xi's swamps are? >> that's a great question. putin is not stupid. he's like a mafia boss. he's very smart who he kills. he i think legitimately saw some of the regions in ukraine as threats, especially as the drum beat was coming to bring ukraine into nato. that was not tolerable for him. does he have people who want to take him out? absolutely. is he going to take them out first? if he can if he can find them, he will. xi has very big problems. the american media doesn't want to talk about this at all. but there's huge environmental issues. they have a declining birthrate; right? we all think of china as just it is growing, no, they have a declining birthrate. one person mentioned this to me,

how eager do you think they are to send young men off to war when they've spent a generation building up their only sons? are they going to send them off to be slaughtered on taiwan? they can take taiwan any time they want, but it will not be pleasant. it will cost millions to take taiwan because there's a very narrow landing area. i've read a very thorough analysis on war be e between taiwan and china. it wouldn't be pleasant. they don't have nearly the semiconductors -- i was talking about this with steve today, that taiwan has. taiwan is the semiconductor chip giant in the world. and then what happens if japan, the philippines, other countries decide to chip in and start whittling down china's military? i always apply to china what was always applied to russia. china is never as strong as she looks. china is never has weak as she looks -- china is never as weak

as she looks; right? we're helping the russians by making their oil more valuable. you made putin's oil the equivalent of crypto currency. i mean, it is amazing. >> we have a couple more questions. you have one here, one here. go ahead, sir. >> i'm a commander with the united states navy retired. i just have a question about -- i watched the brown confirmation on tv, 53/47. >> right. >> and i've seen a few elections in my life. we all know it's always 49%, 51%, 51/49, all the time. >> right. >> when or what is it going to take for this country to have elections where half the people aren't upset at the end? when are we going to get to that point? i hope not a saddam hussein ticket like you mentioned

earlier. >> look at the civil war. i mean, my gosh, lincoln went through, i don't know, just around 40% of the vote. the greatest president next to washington in american history, and he only gets 40% of the vote. so it's the nature of a democracy, i think, especially our democracy, which is a constitutional republic. and madison said it, he says you can't get rid of this. he called them factions. he said that you need to have factions. of course washington hated parties. but you need to have parties. you need to have one faction checking another because this is the way people get their ideas out into the public. if it's become significantly corrupted in a lot of ways over time, but still i like conflict. you only get pearls when you get the chafing; right? you let steel sharpen steel. i don't think we're all meant to stand around in a circle and sing. i think we were meant to get out this, contest our ideas, always

be respectful when the other side wins, which is what has not happened about the last 20 years, really since reagan, they kind of gave up being respectful, if win. but ketanji brown, she doesn't know what a biological woman is. that's just -- that's great. >> do you have a question, sir? >> yes, i do. i think for writing the book only because i'm an old man, got a young son and daughter, and, you know, i have been pretty depressed, and knowing that we have gone through stuff like this before makes me feel that we can go through this stuff also. >> absolutely. >> that's the one thing. the second thing is are you going to work for trump because a guy with your knowledge needs to work for trump? not all on don and eric's shoulders. >> if he asked me, i would work for him for a minute.

i thought he benefitted from bannon even though the personalities are very much in conflict, and you had some weak problems there. but you need people like that around. you need people who can tell you no, and you need people who can stand up to you. i would love to work for trump, and i came this close to meeting him two times. one time was right after the election, but before the inauguration, i was at trump tower to meet with bannon about this book, and trump had just left, maybe 30 minutes before. the next time was in 2017, just before bannon retired, and i said is the boss here today? he said no, he just headed off for new jersey. i missed him twice. i missed shaking hands with ronald reagan by this distance. i was doing an event for ronald reagan at the western white house, but it was over the hill. it wasn't -- have any of you been to the ranch? who has been to the ranch? okay, small; right? really really -- the whole house is about the size of this room. it's a really small house.

you can't hold public events there because they don't have the facilities for it. they were holding an event at another guy's ranch over the hill called in concert at the white house. it would have the metropolitan opera was the hostess and beverly would host once a month a different musical or entertainment act. you get the beach boys. you get the quartet. and this time it was merle haggard and the outlaws. and so they asked the ucsb college republicans who were volunteers, and i volunteered of course. being an older student at the time because i had spent so much time in rock and roll, i was older than most of the other students, they said we're going to give you a special job. we want you to drive the celebrities after they have been screened up to the venue. so i was in a van with beverly and merle haggard and the outlaws; right? that was pretty wild. so i get up there. i'm sitting on a hay bale right about here waiting for any next

assignment, in comes ron and nancy, with no secret service. i start to get up, and i just froze because they had said, you know, this is not too long after the assassination attempt. they said we have snipers on all these hills. as i jump up, and they will think i'm trying to shoot him. they will shoot me. he was gone in a flash. i missed my chance to see trump twice and reagan once. i did get in to the white house with president bush. he invited me to talk about the iraq war and history for an hour and a half. that was kind of cool. >> does that qualify as a rock and roll story that we will get before the end? >> no. >> good, then we have time for one more question and a rock and roll story. >> follow up on frank because hended up on a good note. to follow up on a question about the 2024 election and trump, you know, i've talked to a number of people, trump supporters, and to tell you the truth, i flipped over when he came out with i'm going to drain the swamp. >> by which he meant the

lobbyists. he never meant the fbi. >> i don't think we knew or maybe he didn't know how deep it was. that was the switch. i was a little bit disappointed that didn't occur, but there are a number of reasons. i've talked to peel, and i have thought about it myself -- i have talked to people, and i have thought about it myself. a lot of people i know who were converted trump supporters were disappointed in the 2020 election in the way he handled it. i can point to a couple things. one is i thought the first debate between him and biden, i thought he did a horrible job. i thought his tactics were just horrible and turned off a lot of people who might have been thinking about do i want this guy in the basement who can't think, or do i give trump another chance? he just bullied him. then there's the january 6th, his delayed response. but one of the criticisms is why didn't he anticipate what was happening at the election? i mean what was all this --

>> i see what you're saying. >> -- all the things maricopa county -- >> why weren't there lawyers all around the country? why didn't the republican party -- trump's one guy. we have this thing called the republican national committee. they could have been hiring lawyers. everybody saw this coming. people were talking about this. why weren't they hiring lawyers and starting lawsuits back in january? why is it always on trump? i mean, he's not super human. i think far too often people blame him when in fact we ought to be looking at the rest of the organization, what did you do? what would have happened if every single republican senator and congressman on january 6th stood up and said we think the election was a fraud. we want to vet this before we swear in a president. if it's okay, we will be happy to swear him in. we'll swear him in unanimously, but we want to check out the fraud first. what we've had is a lack of support, especially on the part of the congressional and senate

democrats who have just been cowardly, just cowardly throughout this. i call it patriot day, by the way, january 6th is patriot day. it's patriot day because a bunch of patriots did what we all should have done which is demand a recount, demand that these things be checked out. let me give you another measure of hope here. the judges, okay, trump didn't do this. trump did more in four years than any president in history has done in four years. not even close. and one of the things he did was to appoint all these judges which you can thank for not having masks on the airplane yesterday. it was a trump judge. okay? what bannon told me was that gorsuch, amy coney barrett and kavanaugh were not necessarily selected for social conservative views. their litmus test was their approach to the deep state and the administrative state, and will they help roll back the

administrative state? and they asked them specifically about the exxon case, and how that was handled. so sometimes if you think kavanaugh isn't voting the right way, remember what he's up there to do is to deconstruct the deep state, at least in terms of what trump thought he was bringing him in to do. i want to -- >> one last question. >> no encores. >> please? >> did you mean chevron case, not exxon case? >> chevron >> okay, great. >> let me leave you with this. you mentioned this. this is very important. do not hang your heads. folks, we are on the precipice of a massive earth-shattering victory. what they want you to do is think it is not possible, to think nothing is going to happen, to think mean tweets, to think this, that, or the other. i'm telling you we are on the verge of an earth-shattering event. if you just stand up as jordan peterson would say stick your

chest out, walk with your shoulders back, we lobsters are going to retake the world in january 2024. [applause] >> thank you, larry. thank you, everyone for being here with us tonight. if you are inspired by that fantastic talk by larry, you are free to purchase his latest book, but also some of his archives on the table, at the side of the room. thank you all for being here. we'll be in touch soon for future events. coming up in the spring and summer here at the heartland institute. thank you and drive safe. [applause] >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span 2, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 8:50 p.m. eastern, professor of musicology and american culture at the university of

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