yellowstone national park native wyoming resident bob prichard tells about the history of the park and its tours for 40 years. and at 2 pm eastern on the presidency president dwight eisenhower's grandson david, author of the book owing home to glory: a memoir of life with dwight d eisenhower 1951 to 59 talks about ike's leadership in the military and his presence and the forces that shaped them. exploring the american story. what american history tv saturdays on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch anytime online at c-span.org/history. >> joining us now is journalist and author gglenn greenwald. will be talking about his newest book securing democracy in just a minute but direct glenn greenwald, where at the libertarian freedom festival in las vegas

and you're here. is there an oddity there? >> there definitely is an oddity that's obvious that i'm perceived as associated with the left and i don't think there's a lot of people for whom that's true at this conference but early on when i began writing about politics my focus was concerns over bush cheney executive power theories and the trampling of civil liberties. i always had an audience not just on the left but also libertarians as well. the first event i ever did was the eight aclu and the second was the cato institute so that gives you flavor for how i've managed to have these prompts with my is audience. >> how do you do that, where the left and right meet? >> there are more places than the left and right meet the other side likes to admit and the media typically conveys. i think what attracts media attention is when the left and right are fighting and they gloss over how many

areas they have in common. also the left and right and i think those areas of agreement i tried to build coalition and it's been a focal point from the beginning. >> for people tuning in and saying i know that name, give us a sense of some of the issues you workedon as a journalist over the years before we get your book . >> when i first started writing i didn't go to work at the new york times, i was a practicing lawyer focused on constitutional law. i really just one day created a blog platform that allowed bloggers to be heard by an audience and mostly focused on civil liberties issues connected with the war on it was a fairly narrow range of issues on which i focus and over president ethere was a narrow range of issues on which i focused and over the years they began to expand but i

still kept that sinker there and the recording for which i best became known is when edward snowden contacted me in 2012 and said he had a large batch of documents he wanted to give me and we did that report. >> how did he get a hold of you? did you have any previous conversations with him? >> he had been a reader of mine for years and what attracted him to meet not so much because of my views on privacy and surveillance although those aligned with his but i had always, id, a vocal media critic and was particularly critical of the media propensity during the bush years to be too close to and deferential to us security went rather than have them. with him and he found that an important attribute so he emailed me out of the blue, i had no idea who he was and he knew at the time the nsa was surveilling both of our key

medications and he contacted me with a pseudonym and was very reluctant to say much about who he was or what he had heard for obvious reasons so i had an located encryption technology and it took a while for us to establish our relationship because of that and once i was able to talk to him and went one he found to be a secure environment he told me by that point he was in hong kong, he had gone to hong kong with a batch of documents that he had taken from the nsa that he believed revealed very grave illegalities to the constitution and wanted to work with me in order to reveal them and wanted me to get on a plane to fly to hong kong and i said before you do i need you to prove to me that there is validity, that there's something genuine about what you're saying and he said i'll share with you a tiny portion of the documents and he sent me 20 house speaker documents from the most secretive agency of the world. the first time there had been a leak of any kind from the nsa and even then i called my

editor and said i need to get on a plane and fly immediately to hong kong which i did within 36 hours and 12 or 13 days in hong kong which is when we started iothe recording that revealed that to the world. >> did you ever visit with him in russia? >> i didvisit him in 2016 so maybe two or three years after the recording . you know, he never wanted to be in russia. he always planned to go to russia on his way to latin america and the obama administration trapped in there. by pulling the cubans into rescinding their passage which he needed in order to get to latin america so he been in russia for a year so when i visited and he was still hoping one day to be able to leave by now he's married an american girlfriend, they have two children and their planning to build a life there . he still has to come home but if he can't i think he he is

content with the lights he's chosen. >> there's a debate in this country about julian assange and snowden and chelsea manning. heroes or villains? >> to me there's no real debate. one of the things i discovered ouin my work as a journalist that i didn't previously know was the true extent to which everything in washington is done behind a veil of secrecy and obviously almost everybodyagrees that some things the government should does should be secret. if there are two moments you have a right to keep that secret and if there is a grand jury investigation dibut by and large in a democracy we ought to know what our government is doing and they ought to know little about what we are doing . so it's become reversed where they know everything about us and we all know almost nothing about what the government is doing because of this wall of secrecy they directed in the name of

fighting terrorism and a whole variety of other justifications and people like julian assange and snowden and chelsea manning are devoted to the idea that a democracy it's necessary for the citizenry to learn noteverything but the important things about what their government is doing otherwise how can we have a meaningful election were voting forparties and we don't know anything about what they're doing ? i think as long as it's done responsibly , don't just throw it all on the internet but he came to us with clear instructions about making sure we never publish anything that could jeopardize anybody's lives . julian assange worked with the new york times, with the guardian, the largest newspapers in the world to protect the lives and other erlegitimate identities of people so as long as it's done responsibly that to me is heroism. risking their lives to warn the citizenry about things we want to know. >> glenn greenwald that some of your american experience but how did you get down there? >> i've been visiting brazil

a lot in the late 90s and early 2000. i was working as a lawyer in new york at the time and vi really this is a place i think we all find those places that resonate with our soul, that speaks to us and are overwhelmed by its beauty but in 2005 when i went there i intended to stay seven weeks. i met my husband of 17 years. and at the time the defense of marriage act was the law. that banned gay couples from getting green cards or other immigration rights for their of same-sex spouses in brazil being the largest catholic country in the world nonetheless offered those im rights so we were only able oi to live in brazil together. so we built our life there, we have three kids and he's not an elected member of congress and i've lived there li ever since but i've kept one foot strongly planted in the united states . >> your most recent book is securing democracy: a fight for press freedom and justice in bolsonaro is brazil, how

did you get in trouble with the tipresident of brazil? >> i've had some clashes with jair bolsonaro prior to his becoming elected president. he was a member of congress for 30 years. he was say and aoc or marjorie taylor green in the sense that he wasn't ever in the seat of power, he was on the margins but drew a lot of media attention because he would make statements and do it in a way that drew a lot of attention but that wasn't necessarily the way politicians spoke much like donald trump and his style of how rare it was. there was one incident in particular where i believe i behave expressed anti-fascist statements and he made a clear reference to my being gay on twitter and the whole ruckus. we've always had an adversarial relationship. my husband is part of an on opposition party to bolsonaro and they've had their clashes

, all of his son our elected officials but in 2019 it was on mother's day i was contacted by a woman named manuela davida who was the vice presidential nominee that ran against bolsonaro in 2018, he lost and she had told me she had been contacted by a hacker that claimed he had obtained this enormous archive of files he had taken from the phones of some of brazil's most powerful judges and prosecutors revealing serious criminality and wrongdoing. he put me in contact with him and it was a similar story to the one i had with anedwards noted that wasn't it was an anonymous source who claimed to have a gigantic archive and we started doing the recording and it caused a lot of people at the bolsonaro government and it went from crude insults about my sexual orientation to explicit threats of imprisonment from the president himself, death threats from this movement,

lots of security problems over the course of months we became enemy number one puppy bolsonaro movement. near the beginning of the presidency when he was at the height of his power. >> what was operation carwash? >> operation carwash was a anticorruption probe, the largest ever in the democratic world that began really by accident in 2014 when the money laundering got caught in a pretty trivial crime laundering money through a local carwash in a city called curitiba, hence the name operation e carwash and when they they arrested him he said you won't believe what i have. i'm not just a smalltime money longer, i am a fixer, a money laundering for the most powerful billionaires in this country y all of whom are deeply corrupt and i'm willing to help you discover all of their dirty secrets in exchange for leniency for

this crime you caught me engaging in . and it was at first kind of a moving story because everyone acknowledges that brazil ever since it came out of military dictatorship has been run by corruption. in the us we talk about corruption, cops get a bride, maybe a lobbyist doesn't form . no laws get passed without money going into swiss bank accounts of party leaders, ministers . and a team of prosecutors that were assembled and the judge that was assigned to overtake the case were very young. they were in their mid-30s, early 40s at most . they had been born into brazilian democracy and took seriously the idea that were supposed to be a country that operates under the rule of law. we're not a banana republic from 1960 in the middle of the cold war. and so this narrative of very attractive to the media that

these young crusading prosecutors want to clean up their country. so they began putting into prison using this original kind of niche. billionaires and some of the most powerful people in the country and of course brazilian, everybody was kind of moved. like, finally instead of putting young black john dealers from the favelas into jail were going to get the real criminals know people cannot steal $100 at a time but by hundreds of millions at a time, those people will go to prison and as a result sergio moreau who was the judge overseeing it, the young prosecutors became very fanatical . they became national heroes in brazil there was no one more popular than they for the next three or four years of 2018 . they basically ran the country because no politician could compete with them. sergio was internationally celebrated,one of the time 100 .

the only brazilian on the cover of magazines all over the world every weekend in brazil so the powers that be prosecutors and judges had as they had their anticorruption probe expanded became larger than any person should have let alone a judge and prosecutor and that was when thingsstarted to become a bit more controversial . there were pockets of people they were prosecuting for ideological reasons but that was the context into which our source came to us and said that was the phones they invaded were sergio moro. he said we can prove they been corrupt all along. >> is sergio moro today? >> one of the most important things that the carwash probed it was in 2017 as jair bolsonaro was preparing to

run for president the main obstacle in his path was luiz inc president he was three trump president, centerleft very charismatic former labor leader who left office with an 86 percent approval rating and was the beneficiary of economic growth but he was planning to run again in 2017. and pulls showed him 1520 points ahead of both narrow and he ended up not running because sergio found him guilty of corruption and sentenced him to 12 years in prison and made him ineligible to run which paved the way for bolsonaro's victory. the first thing he did was elevated sergio moreau from his role as a local judge, a federal judge at the first level and made him by minister of justice and public security y the second

most powerful position in brazil and that was when we reporting. there was kind of a unity of fans. moro ended up leaving the government about year and a few months after he became, he joined it and went out shooting. meaning that he himself was completely corrupt and he had tried to uscriminally interfere in various police investigations and that his children were all adults and elected officials who were charged with corruption so he split with the bolsonaro movement, went to the us for a while and came back to brazil announced his run for president . he's now out of prison running for president. thepresidential candidate was kind of a flop . he pulled out before it even began and he's now announced that he's going to run for senate. as kind of a critic of both but now is a candidate being corrupt. >> let's go back to da silva

in your view and i know you have a connection and will get to that. was he guilty of the corruption that he was accused of? >> it's hard to say because he never got a fair trial. there's no question that lula's party, the workers party was involved in all kinds of corruption. i took them in interviews the knowledge that before because as i said earlier , brazil is a country that doesn't have caoccasional instances of corruption but is run cynically on corruption and the workers party itselfhaving been at the middle of it in brazil there's no way you can get every anything done unless you grease the wheels of that corrupt machine . and the workers party absolutely play that game. the question is not how much did he personally profit from corruption, it's something we generally will be interested in because the trial he got was a show trial.

it was a trial in which sergio moro was plotting in secret with the prosecutors is which is what our reporters showed to ensure a lula conviction regardless of the evidence so i don't know the answer but i do know that there is no doubt that lula's government and party was heavily interacting with and dependent upon the system of corruption that has always run. >> what is your connection to lula? >> i interviewed him for the first time in 2016. >> was in prison at the time? ut>> he was in the middle, he had a woman from his party to be the first female president. ntand by this point she had gotten reelected fairly and it was in the middle of her second term and this economic boom that he benefited from turned into an economic collapse and under her presidency and so there was a

impeachment effort underway that i was supposed to and when i interviewed him bythat point it was clear the anticorruption probe was not just aimed at her aimed at him . and i interviewed with him but no one really thought lula would ever end up in prison. it's like a country putting their greatest icon in prison, no one thought that what happened back then but they were trying so the interview was in that context about the impeachment and that people were raised upon the thought that he would be prosecuted handily. and ironically i had tried to interview lula when he wasn't present during 2018 but the supreme court rejected our request . they didn't want him during the election because hthey knew if the public couldhear from him in his voice he could sway the election . they denied interviews with everyone. the only one he was elected in 2018 that they finally granted my request to interview him from prison. the supreme court granted my request and the prison authorities have rejected it. and so about a week or two after i got contacted by a source do an interview with

lula that have been scheduled before they contact me so i interviewed tthem from prison and we were ready to report it but he wasobviously protesting his innocence . and then needless to say once he began doing our reporting that proved that the judge that had convicted him, the prosecutor nwho were prosecuting him were all corrupt, he was freed from prison three months after we beganthe recording. he was very grateful . i was the first phone call he made when he got released in prison when he got home to san pablo. he publicly was very appreciative but my husband belongs to a left-wing party that was born out of opposition to the workers party. they kind of criticized me from the left in the same way the green partycriticized the democrats . he was a party that criticized the workers party corruption. i was never a supporter of

the workers party but when someone's recording gets you out of prison and then that recorder is now being a prosecution as a result, your relationship is going to improve so we had a good relationship for a year or so with the editor. >> when is the brazilian election and is lula still favor? the presidential election is october 2. the as we're keeping our three-month away or so a little less, polls show lula the overwhelming favorite. brazil's electoral system is like france's where multiple candidates run and if two candidates, if no candidate gets more than 50 percent of the vote to top ones go to one of its possible according to current data that lula could win in the first round which is i believe i'm i think only one other person has done that but it's rare so he's well ahead at the

moment of bolsonaro and any other candidate and is the favorite to win which would be extraordinary given the last election he was in prison. under a 10 year prison term and now he's not only out of prison but poised for a return to power.>> you what mentioned at the supreme court of results turn down your request interview lula. is there a free press in brazil? >> something comparable to the us? there is a free press in brazil in the sense that the constitution that brazil and afghan went in burst out of its 2021 military dictatorship which was based in part on the us model of they also used europeans models and their more robust protections for press freedom in the brazilian constitution than there is in the u.s. constitution and it includes, for example source protection rights for journalists , to disclose the identity of their source whereas in theus

there's been an attempt to shield of that kind but it never has happened . so on paper, there's a very robust free press protection. the problem has been that because of the grotesque inequality of wealth and income in brazil and across the country by media has always been alcontrolled by a tiny handful of industrial oligarchical families that have the same agenda, the same ideology and the same interests and there's been a lack of pluralism in the brazilian media that is now changing because of the internet, the ease with which audience without having to have on a printing press fora tv network so it's really improved . and when i did the recording i did and the bolsonaro government attempted to imprison me, the only reason why i am able to talk to you now is because of the court issued a ruling basically shielding me from any of these prosecution attempts on the grounds of the prepress. the issue with bolsonaro is

similar, if you want to go now and interviewed julia aside you'll notice you have civilian side because he sparked from the interview. they won't let him be interviewed, won't let him be photographed and argue is a breach of security but it's in the west just as readily as the brazilians are using h it. they use it to bar interviews with lula. i know it sounds drastic but it's something wehave in the us and the uk . >> you for your brazilian source as he or she ever been identified? >> the federal police announced they found the source and arrested a ring of six people they claim are responsible for that packing . the prison accused of being my source has assumed responsibility for that. i've never confirmed or denied it because i never knew the identity of my source. i have my suspicions but if the source once to say that they're the ones who did it

i'm not going to help the government by saying ibelieve it is or isn't . w>> when you received those documents in brazil, didn't feel like dcjcvu all over again? >> completely. i remember i asked when i was called by congress about this issue i asked whether he would be okay with my husband participating in the call because it's obviously a call of high intensity and importance. you want to make sure it's extra important so he participates in that call and after we hung up and said to me he would help me, he was detained in london at one point as part of that recording i said look, we've already been through this

once before so were going to have the advantage we've gone through this and they haven't and david said i think you're thinking about this incorrectly . the last time ngwe did it the people , the government that was angry at us were thousands of miles away whereas this time the government that's angry at us is literally around the corner and it's going to be much more dangerous and difficult and much riskier. and at one point he even joked and said can't get anybody other than you to get why does it es, always have to be you because honestly our life was turned upside down during the snowden story and he knew it was about to be again so evidently for me it was dcjc vu but he was trying veryhard to get me to see that this is going to be more dangerous . >> how close did you come to be physically injured or going to prison? >> pretty much from the very first moment we began our reporting we were getting the kinds of death threats that are the sort of death threats eo public figures these days often complain about or someone on twitter or in your

email says you're going to get what's coming toyou. these are very detailed death threats. here's your address, here's the front of your house, we know where your kids go to school. very very alarming . people who had access to private data obviously in the government and security forces . we had to turn our house sebasically into a fortress but we didn't leave our house for two years without armed security and armed tyvehicles and the like. we had a good friend who was a city councilwoman who served on the city council with david who had been murdered, assassinated nine months earlier in 2018 and we took those threats very seriously. when i appeared in public extreme levels of security were necessary. one time i went to a book fair and they made me speak in the middle of the water on the boat because they were were afraid about my security and even there there were a group of followers shooting fireworks at the boat trying

to set the boat on fire. >> .. >> guest: i had a few just like i do in the united states where i i appear on fox news a lot are or left-wing networks as well. ilo specifically have a policy s ama journalist, you need to spek to as many people as you can. there's a right-wing network that's grown very rapidly. they had invited me on several times, and i'd gone on. it was in the middle of the reporting, so the tension was at its highest. extremely angry in general and particularly with me. and there's journalist who has been in the main seem a long time, the editor of brazil's largest weekly. and about a six weeks prior to y going there, he had gone on the a air and essentially said that husband and i should have our

children taken away from us, that we should be investigated by the adoption agency because how can we take care of our children when i'm working with stolen documents, kind of very obviously homophobic remarks. but people when often your children, it should be the one limit, you know, in political warfare. and ind was extremely angry by that. last minute, they said, oh, we'd like to put him on the show with you, do you mind? and i said, no, i don't mind, because i wanted to confront him about these comments that he had made. ask they seated us, you know, almost millimeters away. youu couldn't have made a more combustible atmosphere. they obviously did try. and right when the show began, i said,al look, i'm not going to o talk about anything, i need to clear the eye, and i demand that you either reaffirm your comments that you believe our children should be returned to the shelter where we adopted them from or apologize and retract it.

and he instead started, essentially, refusing to retract it, it escalated from there, and kind of spontaneously, he took his arm and tried to hit my face. i blocked hit, and he kind of pushed my o face -- again, thiss live on the air, not only on radio, but also on television. and, immediateless to say, the entire -- needless to say, the entire internet exploded. there were the most prominent if members of the senate, congress,' son not only cheered and -- the president's son not only cheered what he said, but, oh, it should have been a chair that was used. soso so it kind of gives you a sense of the real tension and danger of that moment for the reporting we were doing and for the country as a whole. >> host: glenn greenwald, why should we here mt. states care aboutt securing democracy in

brazil? >> guest: i mean, the u.s. has always cared a great deal about brazil. the 1954 coup that led to the overthrow of its center-left government, democratically-elected government, was engineered by the the cia in conjunction with right-wing brazilian generals as and the 21-year dictatorship that followed was sported by the u.s. it's important strategically, enormous oil reserves as the oil reserves in the middle east are being depleted, brazil is discovering reserves of a kind that is harder to extract but more exploitable, more valuable. it's's the sixth largest country in the world in terms of population, it's the second largest country in the hemisphere. it has probably the single most important environmental resource in the amazon. so if you're somebody that cares about the world at all, cares about the united states at all, you really need to care about brazil in terms of the direction in which it's going.

it influences the region great low to. but also -- can greatly. but it's also one of the leaders of the developing world. there's an alliance with china, india, russia, south america that was intended to be kind of a counterweight to u.s. hegemony in the world. so it's really important politically, culturally, geostrategically and, in general, i think countries are more connected now than ever before because of the internet. and if one country kind of takes anan undemocratic path, it's vey easy for that to influence other countries to follow in course. >> host: the media here in america is trying to figure you out. you are called tucker carlson's mouthpiece by the nation magazine. he's a a friend of yours, you're here at a libertarian the

convention. what do youou got for us? >> guest: you know, i think if you're a journalist and people can't figure out into which box they should place you, for me, that's a testament to the fact that you'r' doing your job. i don't see my role in attaching myself to any particular faction or being a reliable ideological spokesperson. if i wanted to do that, i would become a politician or a spokesman for a party. i think it's very difficult to cast me as a fanatical right-wing figure given everything, for example, that we just talked about involves my con fronting one of the most right-wing governments in the world. i have long been, you know, a fan of people like jeremy corbyn and -- morale he is in bolivia who i went and interviewed immediately after he was the victim of a coup. i think what's actually happening is left-right categories in the united states

are eroding very rapidly. you know, if the idea of opposing nato and u.s. involvement in the war that ukraine a left or right-wing idea? big tech monopolies, is that left wing or right wing? i think it's increasingly more difficult to place people these think for, and i journalists in particular it should be very hard, and i'm glad that it is. >> host: this is your, what, seventh book? >> guest: my sixth book. >> host: and where can people read you today? >> guest: so, you know, mentioning big tech censorship, the sector of the media that's devoted to free speech, that's where i tend to gravitate to. substack,it i do video journalim on rumble. obviously, i'm on social media, it's just with sorthi of an obligation if you have a public platform including twitter. and various conferences like these and various programs.

not just tucker carlson, but lots of pod costs and places like jo rogan as well -- joe rogan as well. >> host: gwen greenwald, "-- glenn greenwald, thanks for joining us here on booktv. >> guest: it was a pleasure to talk to you. thanks for having me. ♪ >> booktv every sunday on c-span2 features leading authorses discussing their latest nonfiction books. at 8 p.m. eastern, herbert hoover biographer george nash if details the life and legacy of the former president, his journey through politics and his leadership during the great depression. and at 9 p.m. eastern, tim miller, msnbc analyst and author of "why we did it," talks about his time in the republican party and weighs in on why many in the gop choose to support president trump. and join us on saturday, september 3rd, for the library of congress national book

festival where for the past 21 years booktv has provided uninterrupted coverage featuring hundreds of authors and guests. watch booktv every sunday on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime if at booktv.org. ♪ >> there are a lot of places to get political information. but only at c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you're from or where you stand on the issues c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here or here or here or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span. powered by cable. >> so, representative hurd, great to see you again. >> it's great to see you. please call me will. >> will, all right. we're talking about youroo