>> washington journal continues. host: this is mark wolfe, executive director of the national energy assistance directors association.

can you describe your organization's work? guest: the national energy assistance directors association runs the largest federal program designed to help low income families and will ruto families pay their home energy bills in the winter, as well as other things. host: as far as their demands, what does winter mean as far as paying bills? guest: it is extremely expensive, pedro. paying bills can be extremely expensive, and we have seen that the average cost of home energy this winter will actually be 17% to 20% higher than last year. that means a family using natural gas, for example of a spend over $900 to heat their home. a family using heating oil will spend over $2000.

it's a lot of money over the course of the winter. host: $952 is the average for those using natural gas, that's an increase of 2021 to 2020 two. electricity, $1300, and heating oil, $2100. propane, $1800, and although you'll cost together, at $1200 increase compared to what we saw in 2021. where are those numbers coming from and what is causing them? guest: one of the things causing them was the high cost of cooling last summer. to help cool their homes, they had to draw down supplies of natural gas. during the summer as well as during the winter, the use heat their homes in the winter roads about --50% of homes use

natural gas, and it's very high, higher in the last 12 to 15 years. that's amplified by war in ukraine, because there is not much we can export, but it still adds pressure here. host: if that's the case and there are higher prices, what's the demand on the program and what can they meet during these times? guest: we are extremely worried. we only have enough funding to help one out of six eligible households. but i heard that congress and continuing resolutions added an extra 100 billion dollars, which will help a lot. we have an extra $5 billion, but are not only worried about heating, but other programs. you had two years now a very, very hot temperatures in the summer, but that's the normal. we don't have enough money to help this weight heating and

cooling bills. the long-term concern is that we don't have enough money to help and families are struggling to pay these bills. host: what about those who receive assistance? what determines who gets that? guest: it's not an entitlement, it's a first-come, first-served program. but we have three priorities. families who are elderly, england over the age of 60, or if they have young children. those are high-priority households. we also look at, are they behind on their energy bill, anything that helps keep them connected. although they have enough money to help, these are some of the most vulnerable families. our concern, people who were able to pay their home energy bil last yearl or year before

will not be able to. this is because of inflation across things like food, rent. families are being used. one of the major concerns is the enhanced child tax credit, which provided more payments to low income families. that ended in december, so that is taking away a resource. host: you said 50% of homes heat their homes of natural gas. 50 million plus in the united states when it comes to electricity. 42% of homes, 5 million depending on heating costs, 6 million homes depending on propane. natural gas is the driver as far as the capability of producing natural gas -- what does it compare to those using it to heat homes? >> natural gas production decline during the pandemic. it's not so much the production,

it's because we had such a hot summer. that used up a lot of reserves. the other thing you have to remember, the price of heating that natural gas and electricity depends on where you live. the northeast, its primary natural gas that generates electricity. at last, it's hyper. that doesn't change the price -- it's hydro out west. that doesn't change the price. there are some press releases from utilities in the northeast that talk about 40%, 50% increases, so higher than the national average. across the country, it's potentially a very serious problem now developing. now, it's still september, so prices could change in a few more days. see natural gas rollout of the love from the reserve, but we don't know. part of what we are thinking congress is, both. as we go forward, the year from

this point, all signs look toward very high prices. we need to prepare for that rather than in february, being out of money. that was a concern. some people turned down the heat to low and the price increased, health issues. we don't want to see that happen. host: we have divided the line differently, particularly those who believe this is an economical point of view. call (202) 748-8000 if you make up to 65,000 dollars, and if you make over $65,000, (202) 748-8001. what defines income in this program? guest: states have considerable discretion, but most families get energy assistance at less

than $35,000 a year. host: we saw this as part of the pandemic. how much of it is still in existence? guest: we received an extra $4.5 billion to help families hundred the 3.8 billion in appropriations. that will be used up by the end of this month, so we are concerned that the environment has not really changed that much. the amount of money they have to work with will be considerably lower. host: which will impact the helping of one out of six, i imagine. host: no, we have enough to help one out of six, but applications are going up. people are worried. host: if you look at other

events happening in the united states, we are seeing prices for gasoline go down, and you're still seeing these home heating prices rise. what's with that disparity? guest: natural gas is separate from heating oil. they are different fuels and not priced the same. natural gas skyrocketed primarily because of supply. heating oil, oil supplies have gone up and they track global prices for petroleum where natural gas is more to muster be priced. that's the difference we are seeing. i think the thing people don't often recognize, we are coming off a very, very hot summer. many people have much higher cooling bills than they had last year. some fell behind on payment of bills, on top of all debts, which utility bills almost doubled in fact, through the

pandemic. but we could have is, in some ways, the worst of all worlds. it's close to 16 billion now, and those numbers could go out. that's why we asked congress for more funding. we are looking at a situation that is just unaffordable, because families can't plan worse. the little problems like supply -- you can plan based on what you know. what we know, we had 5, 6, 7 years of very cheap energy and it ended last year. what we are worried about, lower income, even for the link on families, their budgets have been squeezed. we are now going into a winter with more increases.

that's why we asked congress for more funding. as mentioned, we are seeing a lot of work thinking about how the nation can address temperatures and climate conditions. what's the strategy to help families have access to affordable pooling, and in the context of not often making the environment worse? the more temperatures rise, we have a considerable problem there. part of what we do as an organization is think about how to do things in the most energy efficient way possible. that's important, because otherwise you see more in emissions, higher prices, all the things that work to the detriment of families. host: mark wolfe in this

conversation. we will start off hearing from him, the line under $45,000. go ahead. caller: democrats in washington, d.c., they have owned it because of energy and everything, and hopefully with the money and greed and power they want to bear, we can change things since november. thanks for taking my call. guest: well, thanks for your question. one thing that's difficult for democrats and republicans on this issue, the federal government does not control energy prices. even though, for example, the president wanted to push down the price of oil, he has limited tools. in the case of natural gas, the president has no tools. does not control the price of natural gas or propane. as we go into this winter, the only solution i can see right

now, we need additional federal funding to help the most vulnerable families in our country pay these high bills until supply increases, prices come down -- it looks like we are heading towards a recession. whatever it is, we have to help families get through this winter. host: our next caller in florida. hi. caller: hello, pedro. how are you, sir. host: i'm fine, go ahead. caller: mr. wolfe, how are you, sir? guest: i'm fine, go ahead. caller: my question is specifically about natural gas and propane. people were frantic about why it was so high in the summer and how can we sit? to pay in the wintertime of natural gas and propane? how can democrats and republicans fix that kind of problem so we can afford it? guest: the best solution is

efficiency. at the end of the day, the amount of money you spend heating your home with natural gas and electricity depends on the price of the fuel, so there is an effort to increase efficiency homes, especially lower income homes. the inflation reduction act included $900 billion for residential efficiency. at the end of the day, the less energy we use, the less demand there will be for the fuel and the lower the vices. host: this is a viewer on our twitter feed, asking how many homes are truly energy-efficient ? guest: that's a very good

question. i don't have an exact number -- my sense is that it varies across the country. california, massachusetts, new york have active programs where families can retrofit their homes. you see some other states to guarantees, for example, utilities in illinois that provide low-cost and in some cases free audits for families to do thermal imaging. others, improvements. what i think the important thing is, we need a national campaign to do this. we need a systematic roach to look at every home, look at every way people can do cost-effective improvements, and pay for it. that's another way to reduce demand. help people retrofit their homes and reduce energy demand. in the short run, we have these bills that have to be paid. host: from virginia, this is

carrie. you are next. caller: hi, this is the first time i am getting through and calling. i have been watching you since the 1980's. i love your show and thank you for having this question on. i am aware that one of the biggest problems is that a lot of the new energy-efficient techniques, i wouldn't say they are that new, but more modern techniques, like adding solar and wind to areas only lessons the bills by a certain percent. poor people can't do things for their homes or afford these technologies. but if you have a community that's living near a windfarm or a solar area that's available to add into the public, or a

nuclear facility, how much is that going to affect the price of the fuel and cost of energy if those things are affecting this situation? guest: that's a good question. there are long-term solutions and short-term solutions. long-term solutions are making solar more accessible to households, increasing the use of wind. nuclear is a mixed bag because of the cost -- it's very expensive and there are safety issues, but that also applies to large-scale hydro. there are questions about the impact on the environment of creasing the use of hydro -- of increasing the use of hydro facilities. the biggest thing we can do is low-cost improvements. adding installations to people's homes, looking for leaks in the

doors and the windows, turning on the thermostat at night. those are short-term solutions that could help families get through this winter, but the long-term solutions are thinking about shifting away from fossil fuels, which are very volatile on the pricing and it makes it difficult for families to plan for the winter when you don't know what it is going to cost. even when we did our estimates, these were a week ago, and i was looking at the underlying fuel sources, supply and demand, and this is the first year in five or six years that i came up with several options of well, if this happens, this is the price. it's very difficult in this volatile situation for regular families to plan for this winter. host: this is a viewer off of twitter. lynn saying, in the 1970's

and 1980's, it was worse. they called their utilities and were put on budget plans. how much of that is an option? guest: that's still an option. you can spread your bill over the course of 12 months. the problem this year, lots of families fell behind last winter, and then the cooling this summer. budget plans work when prices are predictable and you don't have debts from the previous year. in the 1970's and 1980's, people who used electric and natural gas, about 10% were behind on a bill. now it is 20%. budget billing clearly helps, because you can spread costs around, especially if we have a cold winter. but the problem becomes, if you have a cold winter on top of a very hot number and the next

summer is also hot, the average divided by 12 will still be too high to afford. host: from joe in connecticut, you're next. good morning. guest: mike -- caller: my comment has to do with the spoiled american population. i grew up in a family of 10 in a two bedroom, one bath summer home in the northeast. my parents did not accept anything from the government, but worked hard. we survived and everyone did well. in the winter, you had to wait in the morning to get the stove going just to have heat. it's amazing to me that all of these people that have called now and they want more money from congress -- congress doesn't have any money. that's the american taxpayer. it's the middle class. the superrich are spoiled, even more so. i will use the water in

california example and keeping the heat as high as they need. the problem is the american people are spoiled and our congressmen and politicians don't have a clue as to what's going on. thank you very much. i don't think there is a solution. guest: one of the reason we advocate for more funding for the low income federal assistance program -- we do not advocate as much as we are an educational organization that talked to congress about what the need is. one thing that's different about energy, the amount of energy a family uses does not increase proportionally with their income. a lower income family can spend 15%, 20% of their budget on home energy during the worse of the year. that's an enormous burden, but you can't plan for a war in ukraine where that could push the amount of money that you

spend on energy to 25%. higher income families, because the amount of energy used does not increase, might be using 3% to 4% of their income. we are looking at this as a challenging issue for low income families that, because prices are going up so fast and so high , the federal government has to step in and help them, because you cannot plan for those kinds of increases. host: and most of our viewers know about the strategic petroleum reserve. is there a similar reserve for heating oil? guest: there is in the northeast, but it is not that large. it's designed for short-term supply issues, and heating oil is a refined product, as opposed to the oil and the reserves. that reserve was designed to

address national shortages, problems in the petroleum markets. other countries have it as well, but do not have reserves for heating oil. that's one of the problems as we look towards the winter. because these prices are set globally, they would only be used if there is a short-term supply issue. that could happen because of weather conditions up there. you could have a tough winter, there could be delays and shipments, and that's when they would tap that reserve. host: i asked because others are asking the president to release that. guest: it would not make that much difference. it would help. it would send a psychological message, but it is only september. i don't want to downplay the help it would bring, but it is not a deep reserve. it would not make a huge difference in terms of supply. host: here is mike, in grand rapids, michigan.

caller: i think the biggest problem is, we don't have any additional supply added on. they have lng gas going to europe, which we are guaranteeing double what they would naturally get. we are sending our extra supply over there without increasing our production, and that production, we need to have to support all these electric cars being, you know, being, using data electric -- that electric to keep that running. we have a 100 year supply of natural gas and it is clean and efficient. we just need to get over this time period until we have other ways to produce. thank you. guest: thank you for your question. we have limited capacity to ship natural gas abroad. in a sense, it's unfortunate,

prices in europe right now are double, triple, much higher than they are in the u.s. because they are dependent on supplies from russia and russia has turned off the tap. our supplies are domestic and 90% of them are used in the u.s., which is why our prices are lower. that's a good question going forward. what is the amount of natural gas we are willing to sell and what happens when you have a situation like this, where there is global demand? right now, the answer is it is limited because of the limited number of facilities. host: this is richard, hello. caller: hello. i am in old man, i have been a carpenter for about 60 years. so i was house making in the 1970's, when we had to drive 55 miles per hour.

the gentleman who built houses in california, he set out there, we are using our ceiling at 7'6" instead of eight feet. we are saving people a lot on cooling. i have a house and heated and cool it with one air conditioner in the summer. it sounds silly, but most doors are only seven feet. you don't use the space up there , but you know, people see the traffic and think there is an unlimited supply of gas. we better look at our safe stuff. thank you for taking my call. guest: you got a really good point there. the main issue, it's not just

the price, it's the amount you use. every step we can take to reduce demand, reduce the amount of oil and natural gas that we use helps to take pressure off markets and at the same time, helps the environment, obviously, because we are burning less fossil fuels. part of the solution is efficiency. reduce the amount of energy we use to reduce the cost and the impact on the environment. host: this is a view texting us, saying in new york state, we pay some of the highest prices per kilowatt hour for electricity. what part of this does the corporation reap where they are gouging? guest: that's a good question that comes up a lot. the system in place to charge for electricity and natural gas is based on two things. the delivery system -- you have to get the natural gas, the

electricity, to the business that is using it. public commissions, state-level commissions that regulate service utilities, do not allow utilities to pass -- i'm sorry, do not allows utilities to charge profits on the fuel. when natural gas goes up, utilities pass on their cost of natural gas. even though the prices are going up considerably, it's not because of price gouging. it's because of the underlying cost of fuel. host: let's hear from john in virginia. hi. caller: yes, my name is john. i want to know, what part the state taxes play in the increase of gas prices? a couple of years ago, i worked at a gas station. the way we determine -- well, i'm sorry, how we knew to raise and lower gas prices was because

a message came across, saying state taxes either went up or went down. can you explain that more to me about how state taxes affect the rise and fall of gas prices? guest: that's a good question. some states are variable, some have a fixed price on gasoline. the states that have taxes, it is a sales tax, usually. again, when the cost of home energy goes up, there is a small percentage that goes to sales tax. other states do not charge sales tax -- it depends on where you are. host: john in virginia -- from texas, we will hear from thomas. caller: good morning, everybody. get your quilts out, it looks like it is going to be cold. how many new refineries have been built and how many were closed? guest: i don't follow that issue

very closely. the refineries, of course, are for oil. but i don't follow that closely. i am aware of couple have closed or been down for maintenance, and that's the part of has been driving the increase in heating oil, but that's not something i follow closely. host: how do they fight back against it? what's the extreme cases you hear about? guest: what i would do if i was worried about paying my energy bill this winter, first, if you are eligible for the energy assistance program, see if you can sign up. the second thing i would do, take a good look at your house. we offer home energy audits -- representative will come through and go through your house,

looking for leaks. they can reduce the loss of heating, but the other is to install a programmable thermostat, to turn down the heat at night. every one degree down gives your home energy bill 2%. if you can turn it down from 70 degrees at night to 65 degrees, you can save 10% on your energy bill. and if you are looking for lobbies for assistance, ask to be put on a budget billing plan and if they have any other suggestions to stay connected through the winter. host: are the concerns broken down between homeowners and renters? guest: renters have less control. you might not be able to make these improvements. you are not responsible for tuning up your furnace and in some cases, the landlord does not take care of the property.

those aren't things you have control over, but you do have control over appliances. and many utilities have requirements that if you are elderly or disabled, or have a pre-existing health condition, you cannot be turned off over the winter. host: our next caller, hi. caller: hello, pedro. i wanted to ask our guest a couple of questions. the first question, to get this assistance program helping me and my mother and father, when you apply for that, how long does it take for you to be, you know, to get the assistance? and how long does it usually take for them to get the assistance? the second question, do you have

to prove that you are united states citizens of get this assistance, or can from people who are here from -- i have neighbors who are going to need it and i can't really say their status, but they tell me they are noncitizens. are noncitizens allowed to apply for this and get it? in erie, pennsylvania, it is terrible. we have horrible winters up here. it seems to me like the gentleman who was talking a little while ago from connecticut about how he was, there's a lot of families that are still growing up like that and keeping the temperature at a decent temperature is just costing more and more. i know up here in erie, pennsylvania -- and i wanted to as pedro a question. we have not seen any gasoline prices below three dollars, but

i heard the president on television yesterday saying there are several states where the price of gasoline is below three dollars. pedro, i'm wondering if you knew those states? i have a lot of friends that drive around here and they say in erie, pennsylvania, it is nudging back up to four dollars a gallon for regular. diesel never came down, it is still around $5.50 for a gallon of diesel. it's just terrible. host: i will stop you there, only because you put a lot out there. i do not know the answer to your question, but we will let our guest pick up the rest. a couple guest: -- guest: a couple of very good questions there. prices vary by region, so as the president said, there are a

number of cases where gasoline is below three dollars. it also depends on how much competition there is in the area. we have seen a lowering of the price, but in variations of how much is being charged, in terms of applying for energy systems -- again, i am generalizing across the country, but it is usually pretty wake. most states do not ask about family assets and savings, which speeds up the process very quickly. 6 million families a year get assistance, but we have to move a lot of people through the program. in the case of pennsylvania, they accept applications and try to move families quickly. one thing to look at is to see when you start seeing applications. it might be the middle of october. people use them in a week, because we are only asking about income and what your home energy

bills are. that tends to speed up the process. the second thing, it asks about citizens -- and most cases, you have to be legally here. if you have a green card, you still qualify. that's the difference. the idea is to make assistance available as quickly as possible to families in need to help them pay these bills. the other thing that i mentioned, if you can't figure out where to apply in your local community, call your local utility. usually they know. host: to answer your question, caller, it's not exhausted by any means, but prices below three dollars, the fox outlet in pennsylvania listing them, and in connecticut, saying gas prices are dropping as well. jeannie in texas, hello. caller: yes, hi. thank you for taking my call. i live in texas and gas prices

are below three dollars a gallon where i live. but an hour from where i live, their housing developments going in. housing development after housing development in each direction. why can't builders be enticed into putting solar panels on each one of those new houses and feeding that power back to the grid for usage when they don't consume as much as they need? i am looking at all these rooftops sitting in the blaring son and i am just thinking, that such a waste of a utilization to help feed our grid, by using the solar panels. there are hundreds and maybe thousands of homes being built down in texas. maybe you can shed some light on

why that is not happening. angst. guest: 1.i can make about your initial comment, part of it is supply and delivery. in texas, you have wells and you drill. the cost of getting gasoline to a consumer, it's lower. in new york, pennsylvania, it has to get to pennsylvania, for example, and there is a cost there. that's why prices are higher there, in addition to competition and other things that helped set the price. part of it is getting the fuel to you. are are differences in prices across the country, partly driven by the cost of getting the natural gas to the consumer. your other points, shouldn't we put solar in our developments? i completely agree, but that either plays to the local building requirements or the economics. if you put solar on new

buildings and new houses, it will increase of the cost -- increase the cost of the house initially. even though it can be extended over 20 years. the builder wants to get that money back, so the market doesn't support it on an involuntary basis. the only way to mandate that is part of building codes. for example, you have to put in a heating system. why not say you have to put in a solar powered cooling system? it's building codes. it's easier for the developer to recoup those costs. host: this is a viewer in ohio, john. good morning. caller: hey, you mentioned a while ago that the president does not have any control over prices of natural gas. i beg to differ. i have been watching the commodity markets for years and when biden got in office, one of the first things he did was say,

no more drilling for oil and gas on federal lands. instantly, the price jumped from between two and three dollars per million db use up to nine dollars. it has come back since then, to $6.77 right now, but that is borderline triple what it was when trump left office. now, if biden said we are going to open up federal lands to natural gas, the price would drop back to where it was. do you agree with that? host: ok. that's john in ohio. guest: that's a good question, but i don't agree with it. here's the way i am looking at it -- opening up federal lands

or increasing drilling is a long-term solution. i think there are clearly pros and cons to that in terms of the environment, what makes sense to do, but it is not a short-term solution. we cannot overnight increase supply. right now, we are looking at tightness in markets largely driven by the high temperatures of last summer, the dwindling domestic supply that pushed up price. same thing happened last year -- the electric industry and the gas industry was not expecting the kind of hot summers we have seen. part of this is planning ahead now. if in fact this is the new normal and we are going to have much hotter summers going forward, we have to start planning how much natural gas the country is going to need. that really is a drilling issue. how you get that supply?

in order to open up the field, it is multi your planning, you have to recoup funds. if you are a gas company, you are looking at, does that make sense in terms of increasing efficiency and the energy economy and the increasing use of solar and renewable energy. we have a couple of questions that need to be thought about, but it's not as simple as increasing drilling. if it was that would be great, but i don't think that's the answer.