brink of civil war and is not a coincidence? lex will the o author the book f the cult after the ivory tower falls, how college broke the american dream and blew up politics. and how to fix it. thank you for your time here in book tv. quick sinks or have me back was really fun to talk about it thank you. ♪ be up-to-date in the latest in publishing with the book tvs podcast about mix current nonfiction book releases plus a bestseller list as well as industry news and trends to insider interviews. find on c-span now are free mobile app wherever you get your podcast. >> joining us now on book tv is steve moore his most recent book a relentless growth of government empowering our economy and our freedom.

mr. moore, has a government ever not? >> hi peter thanks to being with you thanks for have me. the book really goes to the whole history from the founding of our country bred this a lot of graphs and charts inn this that show we have had there have been. it's a good question actually. there been periods were government has retrench and the answer is yes. for example the first 50 -- 100 years of our country there was not much growth of government. the federal government provide the postal service, built the roads and provided the national defense but we did not have all the social programs, the energy department. and then of course are two or three things that happened with the big i increase in governmen. one was the adoption of the income tax. remember for the first 100 years of this country the constitution

act super habited income tax. i believe it such a 16th amendment but do not quote me on that, back in 1913 that enabled income tax. that provided all this new revenue with the government. and guess what they did they started spending it. and then a portion of the new deal group got involved in a social programs that never really existed before. then you had the great society programs of the 1960s. again expend the size and scope of government keeps going up and up. but there were periods were government actually fell back. viso for example after the civil war that a massive increase in government for the civil war. t

after world war ii when the government spent half the gdp that nazis and the japanese government spending went there 48% and less than 20%. then we saw cuts in spending but nothing like what we are seeing today. we are at the height of the covid crisis for the first time in our country's history you mentioned ronald reagan who is a hero. involved in the introduction for your new book. million dollars it's reagan who atintroduced the first trillion dollar budget. >> i was working for reagan at that time.

i tell that story because now here we are some 30 years later. if not 1 trillion is now 6 trillion. amazing how much we assume government grow. when he videos i like what this book is our founders had the idea of a very limited federal government. no overtime that is obviously expanded. to something called the enumerated powers in our constitution. basically say at these powers are explicitly given to the federal government, by the way were having a big fight about this on issues like guns and abortion things like that. the federal government let the states do how do we provide good

schools how to fry good transportation? the states to learn from each other that it's an ingenious system basic of those two amendments say it's alright lucidly given to the federales government reside with the people, thehe states and thewa people. i love that i'm kind of libertarian. that was the idea but behind the competition moved away from doctors thomas bain said as you agree? i do, i do pray think too many people think the government i'm not home for anarchy or anything

at that new strong defense. you'll be to hunger homeless in this country for example were going to givee somebody money going to have to provide you with the funding have to have a training we've moved away fromk that right now. and i think that's been a big mistake birds one of the reason a lot of businesses cannot get workers what's the differencet and the importance of government debt and government deficit? >> i get asked that question all the time. the deficit it's the think of it

as your personal finance. if you make $2000 a month and to spend $2500 that month you have a 500-dollar deficit, right? that is what we have been herunning his annual deficit. what is debt? national debt is the accumulation over time of all those deficits. so we are now, depending on how you measure there's a lot of different ways you can measure our debt. but atba least 20 -- $30 trillin for that debt. again going back to 1984, 85. that time it is less doubts we are up to 2,025,000,000,000,000. so i'm sorry, i am worried the story is not going to think that to get our government spending under control.

i think we need the spending caps. many a balanced budget requirement the american people have to be educated by our government is doing. that's why such a fan of c-span. because you do that every day you will is happening with our government. i'm a big fan of "washington journal" for the occasional. americans need to know what's happening with their government. i talked a lot about this because the situation i'm at right now.

so we borrow somewhere in three or $4 trillion we spent the tree thoroughly more than we brought in. if it doesn't have the revenue. well, that isif your point. those into debt this is the tricky part who buys the bonds? been americans to buy the bonds for it so for example during world war ii we had war debt. it was patriotic he would buy that orr bonds. there were sure we contributed to the war effort.

guess which was buying most of it i do not want to be indebted to our enemy. but that thing going on is the federal reserve board is buying. that is interesting is in it. one arm of the government ison spending the money. where does the federal reserve where did they get the money to buy the bonds? they printed. they printed. that's nationalizing your debt. the psychologist described countries like ours see that in venezuela, and zimbabwehe do.

i don't have my wallet right now. but be rich a trillion dollars. that makes me nervous and incidentally there's one other step in this chain. when the federal government is buying all of the debt, it is issuing more money. it is printing more money. what happens to the value of the dollar when the fed prints all that money? it goes down. spending way too much money for. >> from your book "govzilla" we have borrowed coins of dollars in. deacon chinese continue to buy bonds. the chinese own a great state

and our government? here the bank 5000 does you are in trouble but if you owe the bank $5 million the bank is in trouble. there is to say about the american dollar is the least rotten apple in the car, right? the dollars actually stronger relatives always other currencies like the year old, the peso, and other ass because people do have confidence in america that we will t repair. a night or two. but at some point in the debt gets so big it's going to go to

the chinese for their going to be paying taxes to repay the debt we have issued. so i've use the term physical child abuse in the book. by that i mean you and i and the people are all in her 30s, 40s, 50s, our government is borrowing, borrowing, borrowing, who's going to pay off the debt? our children and our branch of that's like child abuse. >> you mentioned the federal reserve the best two days in 2028 your phone was blowing up. which is more than two days by the way. like months. >> okay your name was floated as potential consequences nominated by thewo president. i was not meant to work for trump as a senior economic advisor in the campaign i worked in an unofficial capacity we as president. the story on this as he called me and asked me too be on the federal reserve board. d

i'd never actually thought about a 40 don't say no to the president and then i said oh what did they do? i know at the federal reserve board doesn't but i wasn't sure the responsibilities. what happened was as soon as i was nominated, all the suddenpr and i did not even at the time of the present asked me too do onthis that i would have to go through senate confirmation. my advice to people if ever asked to do job after the senate confirmation, say no. because you are put under the microscope. all of the sudden literally these are calling girls i dated in college, look i am no saint. i have skeletons in my closet. [laughter]k th they found a lot of them. finally one quick story about that though i called the prison a few times and mr. president is not going well. i don'tyo embarrass you so i thk i should probably step aside. he was the one who kept saying

this is something about donald trump he's a fighter. he said no i want you to keep going. it's like you're a boxer you're told get back in the ring. then finally when it became clear i didn't have the votes in the senate we finally withdrew. it was a painful experience. because every day cycle what did i say back in 1987 or something that offended someone. the and experience if you want to attack my ideas fine no saint of dumb things i am not proud of her said things i'm not out. but i'm surprised a lot of

people are well-qualified. >> back to "govzilla". california is a textbook example of financial mismanagement. california though has a big budget surplus. >> you know where they got it? from uncle sam. what happened during cold with the federal government gave all this money to california. and look, i do not like that when the federal government gives money to the states. thinkk about it this way. the only way the united states government can give money to california is by taking the money from the other 49 states. so i do not want the states of the federal government to do that. california is in really terrible state. the problems with homelessness, the proms of poverty.

the problems with the schools. people leaving california for this is one of the themes of the book. blue states like california, a group in the chicago area, illinois is losing, caterpillar just left. illinois was one of its iconic companies. boeing just left illinois. elon musk he left california. you are seeing a lot of people move away from these high tax height regulation states. i think they better get their house in order printed by the way you know where they're going a lot of memory going to texas and florida. two states that have no income tax. text steve or you sidetrack me a little bit here. as elon musk a hero of yours or someone who's good for the country? >> that is a complicated question. o he has really changed his political philosophy. when he started with all these companies like a solar power company, tesla, spacex he is

getting all of this government money. because of the 5 billion-dollar man i don't think there's anyone's companies got money than elon musk did. but i do like the fact is kind of woken up tot the dangers of woke is him and that he is now for example he is an advocate of free speech and i am too. you have the right to say what you and to say, i have the right to say what i want to say. i don't like what you're saying i'm going to shut your voice down. we are pretty rare in this country among all of the countries in the world that we do have the bill of rights which are to be sacred the right of assembly, the right of religion, the right ofe free speech, the right to bear arms. the right of a fair trial. all of these things are really in history, fine motor that

about elon musk. >> at the end of "govzilla" you have some reforms that you suggest to maybe get uss off ths hamster wheel of debt. >> if you want to ask about any of them. >> yes, i do i do. term limits for congress. quick demos like term limits. leave that we should not have a permanent political. i do not know what the term should be a go for something like maybe twoe terms in the senate that will be 12 years in the senate. and maybe four, five, six terms in the house. maybe ten -- 12 years in the house where did you get back to it. nobody ever thought you'd have this. if you go back to the early years of our country. george washington is a perfectct example. there was no two-term limit. patient was popular present history could serve until his death but he said no, i think

that was the one the great things is time for someone else. i would be a big advocate of that and having more of a m,citizen the legislature people from farmers and businessmen, teachers, nurses, people who know about america really make you love these decisions. write notes lawyers and lobbyists. >> steve moore you also suggest federal spending limit. but at some point are we in so deep a small federal spending limit? >> spending limitations work when they're put in place. in other countries and in states pretty think it would work. but right we've got ourselves in a pretty deep jet ditch. but don't you think maybe we should stop digging?ea that is my warning in this book. please stop digging the ditch deeper. this year alone joe biden has beene' bragging about we only he

a trillion dollar deficit this year. when you and i got started could you ever have imagined to trillion dollar question number that's heralded in some kind of improvement? >> by the wage and homey zeros are there, peter? nine? >> know there's 1212 zeros. >> thank you, glad to learn that. >> se problem though isn't it? i can't comment you can't people watch the show can't tell that its rate 10,000,100,000,000,000. the numbers are so large. we are immune to these numbers eraren't we? if i had told you the government wasted $200,000 on the program he would say that's outrageous $200,000 that's more money than i make or something like that. if i said $20 billion okay, you

can't even comprehend that. >> recommendations before we let you go. assets privatized federal assets, what does that mean? >> this is an important one. the federal government owns a huge amount of land in this country. i am forgetting exactly, west of the mississippi it is over 50% of the land areas owned by the government. the government has not been a tovery good custodian. i'm not talking about our national parks but not talking or natural western that's privatizing the smithsonian or yosemite or yellowstone, but there's huge amounts of land government could get money byay selling it. by the way one of the ways the united states government raised revenue for the first 100 years the country before we had income tax student one of the major revenue raisers was? land sales. the federal government sold land

that was a revenue collected to its purposes prevents imperfect tradition with our companyou country. it's not just land. there are buildings. there's huge amounts of energy resources that we have in this country. we are very richly endowed country with energy, minerals, and those kinds of things. we estimate about $50 trillion of assets like a buried treasure. why don't we reach that and have people pay a fee to get at those resources. then we use that money for debt i think they'll be a great thing. >> back to "govzilla" in your recommendation, no federal dollars? what? >> no federal dollars. [inaudible] >> this is something the late great walter williams energy read about him is a very famous

economist a black economist who would become an icon. he and i came upid with this ida let's just say nobody who makes over a million dollars no company that makes over a million delegates any federal funds. think of much money we could save. most of people listen to the show say yeah, right now there's a bill before congress that's probably going to pass and be signed into law even on fighting against it. they are calling at the china bill. this is a bill is going give all this money and intel to our chips makers. why should the federal government for giving money to intel? if they want to buildw new chis and obvious of her going to be number one in technology. but we arer number one technology. you'll get great companies like google, apple, amazon, on and on, microsoft, those companies did that by getting government meant money. they came up with good ideas and

innovative but silicon valley is a great example of how the free enterprise system can work. do not like this idea of the government giving all this money to industries. i think a lot of it will beas wasted. >> steve moore's most recent book is called "govzilla". the relentless role of government is devouring our economy and our freedom. thanks for being a book tv. >> thank you peter good to be with you again. up-to-date on the latest in publishing with book tvs a podcast about books. with current nonfiction book releases plus a bestseller list as well as industry news and trends through insider interviews. you can find about books on c-span now our free mobile app or wherever you get your podcast. oco. >> of welcome. i just want to thank you for joining us today. i am the founder and president and we are really pleased to have you heree