of incumbents that were likely to win but a significant number of challengers who were going up against strong incumbents who've been in these races for years and in some cases who've kind of done nothing to alienate other than being supported by the governor if you see those that are not backed by him. >> the program with relevant guest hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. to watch this program and others, visit booktv.org/"after booktv.org/afterwards.

>> a world-famous model with tens ofon millions of followers, she is a household name for her looks and image but refuses to let having a body people want to sell force her into dimensionality. my body has the same love, friendship and a betrayal and the intricate web of sexuality and power.an during small one the second and the next and in and out of control. with the level of success that has brought her book pain and pleasure, she investigates her own evolving beliefs the dynamics of the culture that can modify the dichotomy between who she is and how chiefs perceived. in conversation this evening the editorial director for audio at new york magazine where the cut first published the essay buying myself back which is the magazine's most threaded piece of the year. at the cohost of npr the author

of the book who's written for the atlantic, the "washington post," the new yorker and others. following the event, books will be for sale in the main lobby. athank you again both here andt home for being with us tonight andd please join me in giving a warm welcome to emily and hana rosen. [applause]

hi, everyone. thank you for coming to washington. >> thank you for having me and for being here. i feel this book is so personal that i was thinking if i just dive right in it would be a therapy session so the construct i came upp with is i'm like oprh and your adelle. >> i'm a quick learner, so hopefully we can do justice. you called the book "my body" that embodies the thing about it. like your almost asking people nvto sort of come into the

conversation right away. is that your intention? >> there was part of me that liked the idea of people like thinking she wrote a book called my body and then using that preconceived conception to maybe make the book orp, even help the ideas in the book to be more impactful. so i knew what i was doing and it was an braising something that was going to potentially annoy people. there's a whole section of the book that in my head i think of as the miseducation or the signals basically that you received. and i want to talk about that.

life theour teenage interesting thing about that part of the book was normally when people are going through puberty or preteens, it's like the signals that come from inside are confusing but i feel like in your case even before hayou were conscious of it, it's all the stuff like the cues that came frombo outside to you. can you talk about the first time you realized people started to send the signal to you from outside? i developed a really young and had a woman's body before i even knew what sex was. i was truly a baby but i was perceived, looking back at the pictures, people thought i was an adult but i was a child. i did look older and i started

to kind of have this experience of both feeling really self-aware in a positive and also in a negative way. in my middle school, feeling the attention that i got him into the popular girls wanted to be friends with me and thinking that's a good thing but then also feeling like i had a vice principal snap my bra strap. >> yeah that sticks in my head. ..

e, wait what like you're a smart lady. eat with cool politics and you're talking about how you would make sure your daughter stays thin like that's you come on. you must know that that's like recipe for an eating disorder and i realized that in her mind it was her it was her thinking

that would be protecting her daughter and ensuring her daughter a good future and love because then women are loved more but your own parents. i feel like there's a there's weird mixed messages in there that there's like a thing that sticks in my head that your dad said to your mom when people comple >> . >> and you should say thinking when someone complements you the way youre love because you have did nothing to deserve it. and he made her feel ashamed for her body and it was a source of shame for her and her family why she took the

other route to celebrate your beauty. and to be a source of pride but in a lot of ways it made me very aware the way i was perceived. i write about this like praying for beauty when i was very young. >> was at a source of power? >> yes that was. wasn't just in my family that i gear up in the age of the most powerful women to me were britney spears and pop stars and beautiful women. not just my generation my parents loved older movies we would watch marilyn monroe and so wee would think there are men whoo can be powerful because they aret presidents or comedians arere rock stars. but to making the most powerful women were the ones

that were most desired by men. so as a young person instead of praying for many or intelligence or safety. itit spoke so much to me when i look back on that and thought about how is that but i paid for and pointed? - - prayed for and wanted. host: did you watch this? >> i watched it when i was writing the essay. >> it's so weird to think about it that's what propelled me to say it's such an odd moment specific artifact. >> what i wanted to convey how i feel about it is i don't

feel that connected to it it is a job that i showed up to 41 day. even choosing to write about it was strange because the rest of the book is so personal and this is a moment of using that video and what i represented and given an inside look and the power dynamics that watching it again i don't feel that much because i thinkip of that day of work. i remember that time in my life. but i haven't watched it that many times. >> that emily remembers that

that was very embarrassing. was just an interesting time because people were already feminist although they hadn't coined that term yet but there was a feminist blogosphere peoplen talking about that may be things in the past haven't been for women but how can i be grateful while still be part. [laughter] >> so the set up the person setting up the video was trying to create a good five for you most like weird sisterhood five in the room. >> another reason i wanted to experiencesthat

because there are multiple sites to the experience there was a female director there were a lot of young women on props and make up and for me at the time i was 21 and i was just working as a model i had this hardheaded this is my industry i am working i am a manikin is not fun or glamorous. will not be a supermodel i will save my money because i saw what happened in 2008 i graduated high school 2009 and it went back into my parents house and take a service industry job. i was very scared so modeling felt like a cheat sheet my mom was a writer my dad was a painter understood you have to have your day job.

so i thought this will be my day job that they will figure out what i really want to do. all of that was true and then when the video was criticized and people came to me i think there was a certain amount of pointing figures and how could you be part of this misogynistic thing i felt protective of the women on how much fun i had onset versus shooting with a creepy group of guys. i made friends on that he evidently asked me how i felt that's why i d danced the way i did because i was having fun. host: did you feel tricked for sincere? >> i felt sincere and also defiant which is why the guys

were ass holes and i felt very protective of the experience with that director and also protective i wanted politics to alignys with how i wanted to see myself. i wanted to feel powerful i did not want to feel small or like a manikin. that i worked this system i had this asset to my body and i had a great time onset. i think that's true with the ways our beliefs are about our identity and howow we went to see ande feel about ourselves. which is why it is so important for what it really

is like and also why i was defiant and why it was so important for me to feel powerful as the naked girl in thee music video. host: that's s a whole trick of the book generally on the surface it's a hard line to walk other people are telling you that you would be objective five and similar to

the way i felt about that video and it was just left up to that magazine and whatever editor and i can put my identity online myself and control that. it felt like control. >> on the other side of the scale there are moments when you realize if this is my path to power m many control i am dependents. on men. the man who want this it is their desire so what is that realization like? >> as part of the essay to

realize as a young girl in my twenties which by the way obviously my experience as a models very specific that i have friends that look back like taylor swift and how she feels. [laughter] my tiktok is all taylor swift. [laughter] >> i think a lot of the experience as a model but also interactions in my personal life that because i am young and desirable that even men felt that way that i was interacting with and in some of those instances they almost felt they were reclaiming their power by doing these disrespectful things because this young beautiful girl, she

shemasculating me because hasgh the power and she is desired even now i look back and say k i was so young i was a kid and you are the adult and the power dynamic was very different so that is part of the revelation charting my relationship of the video in my memory of the video and how it is representative of the politics. >> that was so such a hard and to that sentence. host: there is a super creepy incident in the book it takes you into the world you don't have access to but after blurred lines and success you end up in a situation this is

a less well-known story about the $25000 to show up at a sports game that is a weird story so what t is that world. >> that is called transactions and an excerpt man in the guardian if you read it that is what i'm referencing. i was really interested in investigating my own judgment of women and how they navigate systems of power in regards to men specifically i can write a whole book just about that the victoria's secret girl has a great is a great character. >> she's alive person but i think people do that in their marriage and i have friends who married somebody wealthy there is always negotiations but in the industry is very

specific because as an unknown model you are basically there is women who are sent out for casting and to recruit other young models who essentially go out with rich men and stand with them at a table they are hoping to have sex with you but really they want you to stand next to them and make them a look cool but it is one step away from the jeffrey epstein world to be totally honest will now t living in new york city i don't go to nightclubs but aer few different moments i've watcheder these groups very clearly underage young women walk-in where the wealthy guys will join in the celebrity man thereno is a whole market around this is an

unknown model you don't get paid but they host a dinner you are a working model you not that hungry one —- a meeting in which many were hungry. [laughter] so the whole five days eat and drink whatever you want. so a lot of models go because they just want a free meal then they get a little drunk when they go to the club and in the wealthy man come into play so i had experience with that right felt extremely uncomfortable from someone who likes clear transactions andth those were not very clear and then the other part of the essay is an experience i had with a now fugitive a malaysian fugitive who produced and financed the wolf of wallro street and was essentially stealing money

from them malaysian people and the president was working with him to help that happen if you haven't read it there is a book called billion-dollar whale or something it is crazy but my manager got a call and i just moved into an apartment inin new york that had bedbugs and i was living in the east village and was new to the world and they said he just wants you to come to the super bowl. i said what do you mean. [laughter] my manager at the time said trust me it's cool jamie fox will be there leonardo dicaprio. >> how much? i would love to know. >> it's public record but.

>> just to show up at the super bowl. aboutidn't care football. [laughter] >> i had no idea what was going on at all i wasn't even pretending it is which was bizarre that you don't actually have to do that i was not being told to cheer or anything but what was interesting in both of those experiences watching how other women saw opportunities and capitalized on them. okay he obviously wants to have beautiful women around so how can i practice into something larger? at a certain point in my life i thought i would never do that but meanwhile i am doing and getting paid for the same

type of men maybe the transaction is more clear but that was another instance of judging my own internalized misogyny and realizing how we all exist on the spectrum of compromise c. >> when you said the transaction is not clear it helps me to understand what's going on in your head because it's not violence but it doesn't feel safe you don't know what's expected of you you don't know what happened it's a weird situation to fall into when you cannot necessarily you can tell me if this is true but you cannot rely on the other women it's hard to tell with a lot of the interactions what is the relationship with the women? are they friends or competitors how do they playoff of each other in these situations?

>> actually wanted to write more about the interactions with theli other women but they were quite limited and i realize because we were focused on the experiences of being at this club or whatever and also i guess there's a little bit of whose side are you on. honestly to me the book is more about relationships with other women than it is about men. at one point i basically talk about my mom's friends in high school. famous women who had an impact on me. i do think that could have been the title for the book in some way.

host: there is a point this is a risky thing to do in the book like you wrote about your trip when you start to modify yourself it's hard to be rich and successful and asked people to inhabit your mind. that feels like it's risky. did you ever think about that they will feel sorry for me or they won't because i am rich quick. >> i didn'tbo write any of the essays looking for sympathy but because i i had questions about my own existence and contradictions and my own life that i wanted to explore and maybe try to come up with answers but also just have an investigation and the record of thatno in an essay that people could tell me what they think and what are their

thoughts or politics? what does it say about the world we live in that you can be paid to go on a vacation? when you say to modify yourself b. i hear you but at the same time my experience from blurred lines feels like this thinking it feels like taking a check. >> what do you mean? there's a moment when you make the w decision why would i wear a bikini for somebody else i might as well do it for myself with my own instagram and that feels powerful. >> i think it's about control as a model and as a commodity and using my body and that way.

but one of the questions of the book is what is empowerment? financial success? feeling and is it feeling wanted or not you and for when it comes to women and pop culture and for my own experience can we just go back? so that is one of the larger questions of the book. host: in the weird way the most powerful essay is what happened to you when you were younger. should we tell that story. but what's interesting me it is thehe most clear. but it's weird for me to do it but to me it's a thing that happened that was so that.

>> so there was a photographer who shot meua when i was 19 it was an uncomfortable situation then he went on to publish multiple books using my images. host: years later and he such an ass hole. >> at the time i turn to the legal system to say what is my legal protection? andd there was no way that anybody could say it was wrong and there was no justice so then i turned to the internet and tweeted how i didn't want

the images to be out there and there was no one. host: you sign a release but. >> but i didn't sign the release and agent sold it or forged i will never know. but nobody felt that was clear-cut when it was happening even turning to my followers. don't buy the book. so i didn't feel like the essay was clear when it was printed so people felt this guy is an ass hole but it felt outrageousrd that we could trick a young person in this set up and to be totally dismissive and then years later when they

are worth something to publish pictures and to make a ton of money. in your soul it is so outrageous. i acted in a certain way i wanted to impress him i did not protect myself as he dismissed me i tried even harder. so to me it still doesn't feel clear-cut to feel complicit and i had a lot of shame around it. and the paparazzi the least relatable thing. when i publish the essay i don't think anyone will like this. i was sure my experience even though they were out in the

public which was very encouraging with 50000 words but it was encouraging to have that piece go out to the world where at least people could think about the questions i was posing and communicating something in a way that gave me control. and then to take back my narrative. host: it's interesting you say that you are not looking for sympathy but the essay feels real. you put it out there in the circle of internal thoughts of the situation. is not like a million people

have that experience because everybody has been in the situation they feel complicit and they don't know if it's their fault. >> i b wrote that to lay everything out and to look at it myself but also to have other people be able to. also it's a tendency i have of overexposure but i am interested in being honest rather than trying to make people feel a certain way because i'm not sure how i feel about all these things. host: there's a romantic moment when talking about meeting your husband. i don't know if i read this

correctlyy but i don't know but it is just romantic but then essentially he puts himself between you and people who feel they have a right to you. talk about that moment. it is a very interesting moment in the context of the book. >> when we were dating he was at a party before we were dating he was there and somebody asked for a picture. and i heard him say no touching and he immediately dropped his hands and he said i'm so sorry which i never would have done that i wish i was more of a type of person to do that because as a public persona and as a woman that im public property.

it's a complicated feeling. in the past dating men that says she's got this and she doesn't need and interjection and that that was very respectful. so iff you would have asked me before he had done that i would have said i don't like it when men do that i feel like it handled the situation but now i felt he's interested in protecting me to use his relationship in the world and for lack of better term he was hot. [laughter] my girlfriend met him and said he is hot. i was looking at your instagram and thinking almost as ann addendum to my body.

and the pregnancy bb series the pregnancy breast-feeding series and wondering about the relationship even pictures of you naked and pregnant so how does that moment of your life relate to everything you are writing? with your body being used. there are a few breast-feeding pictures but what was that about for you? so i was writing about my body and said i can't publish this book because now i have to write all about pregnancy and birth but that just has to be another book i do write about the birth of my son in the last essay but i'm curious how pregnancy would affect me with lack of control waking up

every day in your body does something completely different and there's no way to ensure. you don't know what's going on. you are growing and everything is changing that i found out that i really enjoyed it but it helped me appreciate my body and trusted and let go of control that this knows better than me and have to take the passenger seat and let it happen. so much of my life my body has been used as a tool to guarantee financial k success and and then to i didn't and

with pregnancy or birth because it allowed me to let go to manage that too will and just doing something on its own and then even more so in the last essay that biggest moment was the bike ride i take with my husband and my friend to appreciate my body of what takes me through life which is what a body is. host: the breast-feeding pictures is what i was thinking about using your body is a tool but in a totally different way nobody buys it or pays it but it is sustaining life. >> breast-feeding was a chunk in that last essay so it's funny you say that because it didn't work timing wise but

there was a crazy thing i don't know howke many people have had children or this experience but your breasts wake you up to feed your child. they ache and they hurt and i would find myself walking like a zombie to feed my baby to feed my child and it was a bizarre experience i am not in control. there are things at work that have kept human beings on the planet and that ancient machinery is within me and i have to release control and see what happens and trust my body and the process. host: we will open for questions but i was thinking when you play the game are you

winning or losing? >> i don't know. i feel like what i do have clarity on is winning doing something as a filling as writing a book that is definitelyti a moment. >> that actually writing of it. >> most of ' the time it's surface with a 180-degree turn i'm by myself nobody is looking at me. >> i love writing for that reason. host: nobody really loves writing. >> i was miserable.

[laughter] host: just to be clear. [laughter] >> but i think the focus and the exercise or the experience of that, i don't feel this way about physical exercise but talking about running i hate it that it feels so satisfying i am addicted. >> i don't think it's fair to say it's so easy for me. host: congratulations it is beautifully written. some of the essays are so moving and open to those that are both completely exoticth and totally familiar at the same time. >> thank you for doing this.

host: we will open for questions come tosk the microphone and asns people are will ask questions from the virtual audience. my mom is in the virtual audience and my niece have you heard of models and what are their motivations? >> i am in a very particular position where most don't have the ability to do that or have access. i do think there is more conversation around copyright in the age of the internet in general to say with revenge porn and everyone is putting their images out there. there is a lot of conversation that is interesting but

specifically in the modeling industry? know. there has not been a lot of that. host: that is true. they cannot afford that. this question is great but race in public perception how do they react to racial ethnic ambiguity because from blurred lines. >> it had come out and then that competition around sexuality in a music video really reminds me of this but i will say that those women have had it so much worse without a doubt those racial walls stereotypes. even though it was their music video and they are in control they have to battle a whole other set of issues.

>> that there is a similar thing. mi and control? i am leaning into it but i do think she does know. >> because it's interesting you have this feminist and right-wing people both saying that this video is trash. >> [inaudible]

>> this is something and you might hear me say this again. and it's an experience i have shamee around and i thought i would look back at the moment and sayyo that's the moment that was so stupid why did you compromise yourself in this way? and what i have realized that is not a healthy exercise. and young women need to give themselves a break to understand the larger things at play under their personal choices leading them to the heartaches in the brutal realities which is why i wrote the book. i don't just think my life has been a product of my choices

but also the culture in the world it's important for women in particular not to be so hard on themselves. >> have they started to take you more seriously? >> no. [laughter] >> and to definitely think in the world and then when they see women taking control and people think maybe she is business savvy.

but it only came out a week ago but i i hope may be the boers more on —- the book is more impactful but i should not worry about that so much. [laughter] >> . >> that is a good counterbalance to the other girl on girl weirdness. >> it is hugely important. >> i am a college student so going from modeling to entrepreneurshipat and i was wondering the advice you give to young women in their twenties to own their sexuality and.

i think one thing i have learned around pregnancy and motherhood but that was good advice. but trusting your gut and following your instinct. and then to find a mentor. people will guide you. that is true. so with young women there a lot of mentors would be click on —- quick to say you cannot do it this way. and then i have found that has not been helpful that doing what i want to do.

if anybody wrote to the book about that is something i felt passionate about and whether or not in something that i cared about so trusting your gut. >> thank you so much for sharing and then you feel you have to have the people so how do you navigate that down? and going tool the process. but then they see you everywhere so they feel they

know you. good question i figure that out every day at one point i was not sharing his space then he was getting paparazzi so thathe was me wanting control. and it's not the ideal but my way of taking control and then as a headache to protect his image rather than relax and say it's okay. he can be in the world and that feels better to me. i thinku day to but then deciding what i wanted to share w and why it felt right and then definitely i use to

but now i'm a little bit more interested. >> but that is a response to paris social relationships. have it. these are my thoughts and then complicated feelings, it looks like a great way of interesting. i am curious what are your thoughts he hasas seen a couple articles is to but how that

but all of that. >> at one point isn't there another essay about those going on vacation and thinking i might as well be the one to sell the bathing suits rather than this guy. i think capitalism is for everyone and if it's related to the conversation i am having come i have to become the man and the boss and in

that was unfortunate because it didn't mean real change but at the same time it's nice to see some women and businesses in places of power we don't normally see women and actually the black one —- the backlash so many women were hold accountable i don't think there was as many men also related to sexism. >> hello thanken you for being here. my question is what do men learn from reading this book? >> as a man, thank you for coming. [laughter] i think about the book with

man in mind there are men that i'm close to that don't understand why i get so emotional or upsete by any number of situations. ia get it. and i felt so frustrated i wasn't doing ae good job of explaining what it's like to be a young girl or a woman in this world. i didn't just want to be just men i c was thinking of women a lot but i wanted it to be accessible so they could feel passionate and feel what it's like to be a woman. my name is drew.

i am 23 but you talk about control and then how hard it is to navigate that someone in our age starting out. and then they see you are 23 -year-old woman what do you know? but i think being aware, not the same thing but having a frame of reference as you try

to find control you will get pushback. but it is really tough. i wish there was a guidebook. and then to trust the instinct to remind yourself of the reactions you are getting not because of who you are but the world in the culture we exist in. last question. >> that is an important aspect of life. so so did you ever sit down and have these conversations.

>> i should but it is an ongoing conversation. [laughter] like all intimate and but what i try to do is really give her but i know everything in the book she gets and as a parent i have to accept even the most well-intentioned person that just don't land with the adam

she loves peace and wisdom. thank you for coming. [applause]

>> as a journalist i don't have interest in media criticism if i have a joke about it the may have specialized equipment left to the professionals. this is in reference to the media criticism it is trash in most media criticism is indicative of the problem with refuge for what our side did. this is not my happy place. but i had a weird experience professionally and we're as citizens.