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>> carol anderson, it is july 3, 2022. what is the july 4, 1776, celebration mean to you? >> guest: it means we are precariously perched, this democracy we are heralding, on july 4, 1776. we are in a perilous time. to me as perilous as it was when the continental army looked like they were giving the butt kicked, as perilous as it looked when the south attacked fort sumter and launched the civil war. we are in perilous times where our democracy is hanging by a thread. >> host: why do you say that? >> guest: because we've got what i call a land, sea, and air attack happening in american democracy. the land attackers the assault on voting rights, the sea

attack is the attack to wash away the teaching of real american history. the air attack is the loosening of gun laws while having a narrative that the insurrection was legitimate political discourse and seeing all of this violence and threat raining down on election workers and election officials. when you are looking at what is happening with voting and our education system and the narrative we have come to understand this nation and when you look at deployment of violence as a tool of politics. aided by the us supreme court, aided and abetted by hyper extreme partisan gerrymandered state legislatures. we are in trouble. where the hope is, is that we

have always fought back. we have always known that this democracy was worth the fight. we have to gear up again and fight for this democracy, fight for this nation. >> host: as a historian at emory university. there are comparisons made to pre-civil war time. you make that comparison? you see that? >> in ways where you get this sense of two nations, two separate nations going in two directions, one direction is states that believe in the fullness of citizens humanity. that believe people have rights. that believe there is this thing called democracy. on the other hand you have those who have what i want to say as their vision is a

democracy where you have a vast labor pool generating enormous resources then go up to a small strata of whites and what that small strata have done is they have convinced a larger number of whites that they too can get the benefits of massive set of resources coming up from the labor pool. that is not how this works. you are getting a sense of a hyper racialized democracy where a small strata, full-blown rights versus a democracy that is multiracial, multiethnic, multi-religious and vibrant. those two visions of what this nation is and can be is where the collision course is. >> host: in this conversation i want to focus on three of your

books, that includes "1 person, no vote: now voter suppression is destroying our democracy," "white rage:the unspoken truth of our racial divide" and "the second: race and guns in a fatally unequal america". they've all come from incidents that happened in our world. one person -- "1 person, no vote: now voter suppression is destroying our democracy" we had the georgia gubernatorial race, "white rage:the unspoken truth of our racial divide" , michael brown, amadou diallo and the second philandro catillo. >> it emanated out of the 2016 election, because what struck me with the pundits saying hillary lost because black folks didn't show up. she is like hillary. she's not obama so black folks just stayed home. what that analysis did is it ignored the fact that this was the first presidential election in 50 years without protection

of the voting rights act which the supreme court got it in 2015. once you begin to factor in that you had a number of states implementing voter suppression techniques like racially discriminatory voter id law, limiting early voting, closing polling places in black communities, once you look at that you are coming up with a different narrative about 2016. >> host: what is a racially tinged voter id law? >> guest: i love that question. thank you. is where you have alabama. alabama with its voter id law, you must have a government issued photo id. the public housing id does not count as government issued photo id. 71% of those in public housing

in alabama were african-american. what the naacp legal defense fund found, it was the only government issued photo id they had. then enter bentley shutdown the department of motor vehicles in the black belt counties. the one government issued photo id you have doesn't count, i will get a drivers license but the drivers license bureaus are shut down and you have to go 50 miles to get a drivers license but if you don't have a drivers license how do you go to 50 miles? basically a one hundred mile round-trip and public transportation ranked fortieth, alabama ranked 40 eighth in the nation in terms of public transportation. not like you can hop on public transportation to go that 50 miles which that is what i mean by racially discriminatory voter id law.

>> host: let's look at "gettysburg: the last invasion," michael brown, amadou diallo. >> guest: there was this thing called the op-ed project which was teaching faculty how to write for public audience and we had a workshop later that day and i have the tv on and the news is glaring. it doesn't matter, ferguson was on fire. the pundits were all saying look at this black rage. who burns up where they live, black folks burn up where they live, can you believe all of this black rage and it didn't matter which channel i had on it was the same narrative. i had lived in missouri for 13 years and so i found myself shaking my head going no, no,

this isn't black rage, this is white rage. that is where i came up with as a nation we are focused on the flames but we missed the kindling. we missed the policies that are in place that then generate that explosion. that is what we do with education. we miss what we do with housing. we miss what we do with the criminal justice system. we miss what we do with voting rights. we miss all of the fundamental basics of life in america, it undermines them. look at black folks burning up where they live, without looking at the white rage underneath it. >> host: this is a quote from "white rage:the unspoken truth of our racial divide" . white rage is not about visible violence but rather it works its way through the courts, the legislatures and a range of government bureaucracy.

the trigger for black and white rage inevitably -- >> guest: this is what being a historian allowed me to do. it was to see after the civil war when you have emancipation, this should have been massive back lash happened, those who were trying to reinstall slavery by another name and having andrew johnson systematically undermine what the civil war should have been about and having the us supreme court got the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments and the enforcement act and force act which dealt with racial discrimination and segregation, public facilities, going after white domestic terrorism. the president of the united

states, the governors and the us supreme court issuing these edicts and executive orders and the law that undermines that advancement of what freedom mend, that is white rage and vicariate through the great migration, the brown decision, the civil rights movement and the election of barack obama. >> host: one thing you do with the brown decision is you talk about how it wasn't fully implemented, san antonio is an example. >> guest: part of what we see in san antonio, you have a massive disparity so you have a sense of equality under the 14th amendment with equal protection under the law. in a neighborhood in san antonio, overwhelmingly mexican-american and african-american they were taxing themselves at the

highest level allowed but still only able to generate a few dollars, 20 one dollars per head, per student, per capita. whereas the edgewood district which was a wealthy white suburb of san antonio basically tax themselves at a lower rate but because of property values they were able to generate so much more, hundreds of dollars per capita. parents, mexican-american parents sued, saying this is fundamentally unequal. fundamentally unequal. we are taxing ourselves at the highest rate but because of highest policy that devalued our property, we cannot generate enough income, enough tax dollars to adequately fund quality education for our children. the us supreme court looked at this, equality does not require

equal funding so that kind of disparity that we see now was blessed on high by the us supreme court. >> host: your most recent book is "the second: race and guns in a fatally unequal america". 42 million african-americans in the state, according to recent statistics, 25% of them are gun owners, doubling in the last 10 or 20 years. >> guest: i am not surprised. one of the things i look at in "the second: race and guns in a fatally unequal america" without access to guns, anti-blackness drove the second amendment, regardless of the legal status of african-americans, and slavery black denizen which was peace

between citizens and enslaved, emancipated, african-american, jim crow african-american, civil rights movement african-american, and the fear of black people has created this crisis we are looking at. it has driven the second amendment, when you begin to think about the terror that has arranged down on society you saw the rise of the white ring melissa during obama's presidency, you saw the rise of white gun ownership during obama's presidency, then we had trump and you saw the embrace of white nationalism, white supremacists and you saw, because of the technology, the

kind of police violence that rains down on black folks, you have african-americans doing what they have done which is to say we have to defend ourselves in this society, nobody is coming to help us. >> host: is this the book you thought you were going to write? something you thought about for quite a while? >> guest: no actually. it was the killing of philando castillo that did it. my body of work deals with human rights and civil rights and african-american and with -- when philando castillo was gunned down by a police officer, because philando castillo had a license to carry a weapon, that is why he was gunned down, the national rifle association went virtually silent on this killing of a man simply because he had a gun and

so you have pundits asking don't african-americans have second amendment rights? that is a great question and that is a question i have not explored yet and so i went hunting, on the 17th century. i found this incredible fear of enslaved and free blacks and the laws coming through to try to protect the white community from the enslaved, from free blacks and a key element of that is disarmament, the banning of access to guns. so you saw laws coming out of virginia and south carolina, you shall not have guns for

those who were enslaved, and free blacks and you saw this coming through in constitutional ratification convention, you get to virginia, not sure about this constitution thing, one of the key elements, patrick henry and george mason saying this militia that we need to keep the enslaved in check, madison put control of that under the federal government, under congress. we can't rely upon the fed to defend us. will the enslaved rise up? the federal government has folks from pennsylvania, from massachusetts. they are not going to come down here to defend us. we need to have the protection and be left defenseless.

they scuttle ratification, when that didn't work, they threaten to hold a new constitutional convention, madison was scared out of his budgie burgers, that's the scholarly turn. the articles of confederation had not worked, they pushed through a new constitution that gave the federal government enhanced power but there was this fear that the federal government was too powerful, the bill of rights, when you think about that bill of rights, freedom of religion, the right not to be illegally searched and seized, the right to a speedy and fair trial, not to have cruel and unusual punishment, the right to a well regulated militia for the security of a free state.

that thing is an outlier and that outlier is basically to the south, to not hold a new constitutional convention. it is to say you are protected. the militia is safe. >> host: are you surprised what you found? >> guest: yes. i thought because so much of our discussion today about the second amendment is the individu right to bear arms or if it is about a militia. this binary going on. >> host: is it about individual rights? >> guest: out of the mcdonald decision, or is this about the militia which the courts long held this was about a militia but that argument, that binary argument is irrelevant. it is irrelevant because the foundation of the second

amendment is the fear of blackness, black people, defining african americans as criminal, as dangerous, as violent, the white community has to be protected. i went wow and that is why things begin to make sense in its own weird way. as i walk through this book, in the 21st century, the way we understand citizenship through gun rights, open carry, able to defend your home against an invader. at this point. those kinds of doctrines become foundational.

stand your ground. those doctrines that become foundational, they don't hold and i have examples, rice who was an open carry states, 12-year-old boy playing in a park in cleveland with a toy gun. it didn't have the little red tip on it that says i am a toy but ohio is an open carry states. as long as you are not threatening anymore you can carry your weapon. in two seconds they shot him down. he was dangerous. he was a threat and i just opposed that to kyle rittenhouse, you have a 17-year-old with an ar 15, who strolls by the police officers

in kenosha, wisconsin where there is a black lives matter protest and police say glad you guys are here. you want some water? it is hot out here, he then shoots three people. two of them were killed. walked towards police officers with his hand up. they don't see threat. they don't see danger. they are not afraid. that speaks volumes about the second amendment. >> host: carol anderson, are you in anyway shape or form a gun person prior to writing the most recent book? >> guest: a gun person? no. it wasn't like i was pro gun or anti-gun, i was just here. like i said, it was this discussion about philando castillo that really sent me down this path of trying to

find do african-americans have second amendment rights. always is a long, hard word but i have generally said that we need to be reasonable about guns. the semi automatic weapon being readily available to civilians makes no sense to me, none. you can't hunt with an ar 15 and eat the deer "after words". come on. the kind of logic, ar 15s are for hunting people. the basic logic, i have been there on the basic logic. >> host: welcome back to the booktv "in depth" steube, the first time we have been back with a guest in the studio, professor and author carol anderson. you have heard some of the topics we are talking about today.

your participation is key on booktv. here's how you can get through. if you live in the east or central time zone, 202-748-8200 is the number for you to call. and the mountain and pacific time zones, 202-748-8201. if you can't get through on the phone or would like to make a comment via text here is the text number. these are for text messages only, include your first name and your city, 202-748-8903. i will also scroll through our social media site, twitter, facebook, just remember@booktv if you would like to make a comment on any of those sites as well and we will take those in a few minutes. carol anderson, how long have you been at emory? >> i got there in 2009 from the

university of missouri. i was there for 13 years. >> host: why did you transplant yourself to georgia? >> guest: emily that emory is an amazing university and an opportunity to grow and thrive and be in a place surrounded by scholars asking tough, hard questions and seeking the answers and then there is atlanta. it is an amazing city. >> host: missouri, colombia, missouri, atlanta. where did you start life? >> guest: i started life in columbus, ohio. that's not accurate. my father was in the military. i was born on an army base and we lived in germany for several

years and then, retired from the military after 20 years, he then moved to columbus, ohio because he wanted my brother to go to ohio state. that is where i did a lot of my growing up in columbus, ohio. >> host: where did you go to school? >> guest: my undergrad and a masters at miami university in oxford, ohio and my phd is from the ohio state university. >> host: why did you become a scholar? what appealed to you about getting a phd? >> guest: i love learning. there were always books in our home and discussions in the house about what was happening, politics, civil rights, injustice. it was me trying to figure this thing out.

i had wonderful mentors, helped me figure out, professor alan ingle at miami, going over some case and i popped off, right? he went move, anderson. may i see you after class? i'm going through i am getting ready to get thrown out of this class. it is a 5 hour credit hour class, i will lose full-time status, rolling through my head. i walk up to him after class. he said have you ever thought about going to graduate school? i went yes, but have no idea how to get there. he said come with me. having mentors like that that helps shepherd me through what can be a very arcane, opaque process was instrumental.

the natural love of learning. one of those kids who would read the world book encyclopedia from a-z and read it all over again in case i missed something. >> host: what do you teach at emory? >> guest: i teach the civil rights movement, i teach twentieth century african-american history, i teach war crimes and genocide. human rights policy. the black athlete in american society. and that one point also us cold war foreign policy. >> host: back to your home state of georgia. you have a black athlete running for senator. >> guest: yes we do. yes we do. what we really have is deployment of representation

that is not representative. it was the same way republicans tapped alan keyes to run against obama. here is somebody black, that ought to do it and it is the same with herschel walker, football star out of the university of georgia. let's put him up against rafael warnock and what we are seeing is someone with a history of violence, someone who consistently lies about his credentials, and someone who has not thought through policy. so the reason he is there is he is black, not because he can do the heavy lifting of being a us senator. it was a cynical ploy. so far and server he gave after the killings in uvalde, how

would you handle the issue of guns? and he said keynes lou able -- kane slough able. what we need as a department, where you have -- so you can have -- a department that looks at young men looking at young men -- women on social media, constitutional right, and it was like the hard drive that has been corrupted. it has these little soundbites and he strung them together. i need to say something about the bible and social media, i need to say something about constitutional rights and disinformation. that is what we got but that wasn't policy. that wasn't thoughtful. it was in fact insulting. .. that black folks are going to run that way simply because he is black. that is not enough. host: have you ever been in

ebenezer when pastor warnock is preaching? prof. anderson: i haven't. host: is it hard to get in at that point? on a sunday >> guest: anyone, come in, i'm sure, i'm sure. ebenezer is a storied church. it is like bedrock foundational to the history of black atlanta into the history of the civil rights movement. it is where reverend dr. martin luther king preached. it is where daddy kane was. it's ebenezer. it's ebenezer. >> host: a lot of news reports indicated that the 2022 georgia primary election, after the georgia legislature made some changes to the voting laws, went very smoothly and that there was good turnout. >> guest: and i'm going to

like and that to, so you get how can this be when we had this great turnout? what it doesn't look at that narrative doesn't look at is all of the mobilization of civil society, all of the work of the new georgia project, all the work of the black voters matter fund, all of the work of the naacp, all of the work of the ldf and aclu and galago and asian americans advancing justice, all of those groups trying to move folks through under, , beyond, over, across te barriers that the georgia legislature set in place. and so i liken it to -- somebody tries to rob you. they don't succeed. you are able to fend them off. there are a group of folks were able to help fend them off.

does the fact that they weren't able to be successful wash away the fact that they tried to rob you? no. because they tried. but you had a group of folks who helped you fend off that person that was mugging you. and so when you look at 202, it is a is a mugging of georgia voters. it is predicated on the big lie, the trumpian big lie of massive voter fraud that no one can prove because it didn't happen. and it is predicated on how do we stop these folks come because we had incredible turn out n the 2020 election and in the 2021 runoff. in the 2021 senator braun off black voter turnout was almost 92%.

now, when you're in a democracy that is multiracial, multiethnic, multireligious you embrace that kind of turnout you are like we did something right ear if how do we continue on with this? unless you're going for a heron vote democracy and you're like oh, how do we stop this? >> host: professor anderson, last question before we get to calls. in all your books the subject of human rights plays a role. it doesn't permeate necessarily but you bring it up and you weave it in. why is that? >> guest: human rights are so foundational for me. it was, it was my first book, ,t was my dissertation that became my first book, "eyes off the prize." and i asked the question, how could all of the blood, all of the courage, all of the effort by civil rights folk lead to an

america where the life expectancy of african-americans has declined, where you are having massive disparities of infant and maternal mortality rate. where you are having massive wealth gaps that shape the kinds of ways that people can move through this society? how could the civil rights movement, that is one of the things that we herald, we look at this going oh, we have overcome. look, this is the unfinished business of democracy handling that business. how could all of that have still left the american that we are in? and what my research showed was that we had a civil rights movement, not a human rights movement. and i wondered how that happened. happened. because remember you had malcolm x saying how does a black men get his civil rights before he

gets a human rights? everybody was like -- but what i found was you had the naacp and w.e.b. du bois saying the same thing a generation earlier. so what could create that level of community amnesia, as if malcolm was the first one to say it? and that's what i found the power of the cold war and the te power of anti-communism in the mccarthy witchhunt, that defined human rights, the right to health care, the right to education, the right to housing. as communistic, those are the things that the soviets want, and if you're a a real patriou don't want that. and, and how those witchhunts were systematically just targeting african americans and african american organizations that were fine for this human rights platform, to the point

where it became politically safer to argue on a platform of civil rights and safer does it mean safe. because we know the violence that rained down on folk for fighting for civil rights. but it became politically safer to be able to argue on a civil rights platform. all we want is what's in the bill of rights. what could be more american than the bill of rights? than to talk about wanting the right to housing, the right to health care, the right to employment, the right to leisure. looking at the universal declaration of human rights. because the u.n. had also been cast as a communistic organization by the right wing and american politics. so my work really deals with those kinds of truncated rights and the residuals of what that looks like as we live through this america.

>> host: well, i promised that was a last question before we go to calls. a couple more came to mind, but we will hear from leo in the bronx. leo, you are on with author and professor carol anderson. >> caller: thank you. ms. anderson, i enjoyed seeing your lectures on c-span when you speak to college students. my question is, stacey abrams changed her position. she used to be against the idea of requiring people when they vote to present ids. and i heard recently she change her position. could you explain why? >> guest: so part of -- thank you for that question. part of what you were saying has been basically the work of, of the sense that voter ids are reasonable. voter ids are, everybody has an id, and that we have voter

fraud, voter fraud, voter fraud. and so that is not too much to ask for people to show an id in order to protect democracy, in order to protect our elections. they look at polls and do something like 70% of americans believe that voter fraud happens on a regular basis or something like that, and 50% believe that it happens regularly. and so coming up against that tied it allows for the discussion about we've got to have laws that protect our voting rights. when that becomes, when the show that runs up against is voter id and you got most americans believing that voter ids are fine, because again because it plays to a middle-class norm, and the racial discrimination that is inherent in ways that these states have deployed voter

id. it felt like like a battlee too far. >> host: cornelia, alexandria, louisiana. good afternoon to you. >> caller: good afternoon, c-span, and happy and blessed forthcoming up for the fourth of july. ms. carol anderson, i'm really enjoying you and stuff. i see or a history professor and i was telling the call screener if i hadn't been african-american, i was a democrat for a long time, but i joined the republican party because of some different things that the democrats were doing. my parents were kennedy democrats, but they were republicans first because the republican party help out african-americans and stuff. and my question for you, i believe in god guns and gold buyable bullets and beans. our constitution is a look at ben franklin, he said this is a

representative republic. it's not a democracy. so we're supposed to be a representative republic or constitutional republic. i agree with you on racism. when philando castile catbird back option to never done that. the nra should have said something. after the civil war the nra was trying to teach black, have gun ownership to protect themselves when the democrats had the klan and stuff. so i don't know if you know the history of the democratic party. the klan was a military wing of the democratic party. they were the ones that came up with the jim crow laws and all like that. >> host: all right, cornelius, very quickly, why are you a republican today? >> caller: because the democrats have lied to us. they always wanted to defund the police. they don't want us to have guns.

we are killing our own cells with these gang members and drugs dealers and stuff. so all of us need to be armed up. arm up america. >> host: thank you very much. professor, has so many race that to you in class? >> guest: so a a couple of points there. one was with the democrats are, and just after the civil war the democrats were the party of white supremacy. unabashed white supremacy. one of the things that is happened though, and it's called the southern southern t the southern strategy did was as the democrats began to do with the issue of civil rights for african americans because of the great migration, because african-americans were moving out of the jim crow south, is that you had the republicans going all, there is gold in those hills of white resentment

about civil rights. and you see it being deployed. you see it being deployed in 48. you see it being deployed in 52. 52. you see it being deployed in 64 and you take lisi being deployed with richard nixon in 68. and with ronald reagan and 80. so if you wonder why we have this demographic shift, it is because of the southern strategy where the republicans brought in this sense of anti-civil rights as their mantra. and with the issue about guns and where killing each other, one of the things that we often hear about is black on black crime. that is the narrative of black pathology. yes, over 80% of black people are killed by black people. over 80% of white people are killed i white people, but we don't have the narrative of white on white crime.

why is that? sometimes we have to ask the next question. and what you also have is that you have washington d.c. and chicago have implemented gun safety laws to try to deal with the homicide rates in those cities. you had the u.s. supreme court first in the heller decision and then andy mcdonald decision undermine those safety laws, and you saw guns flooding in to those communities again. so this is why after uvalde your governor abbott talking about yeah, but what about chicago? because that becomes the kind of trope of black violence that gets deployed consistently by republicans from a a text mese from kelvin in baltimore. good afternoon, dr. anderson.

how does the evangelical right play a part in fueling our divide in our society? presumably, presently, and its influence in the scotus, the supreme court, i.e., the federalism society? >> guest: the role of white evangelical christianity is powerful. it really became a force, i want to say, in the '70s and really took hold in the '80s, and has not let go. there is a wonderful book called the long southern strategy by todd shields and angie maxwell that looks at the three pillars of the long southern strategy. one of those is racism. another pillar is patriarchy, and the other pillar is white evangelical christianity. and the role that it plays in the republican, in the domination of the republican

party and its shaping those policies. and so we are seeing this in the recent scotus decision where you have, in maine, where main was only funding secular schools, vouchers for secular schools, and we had these white evangelical christian schools going hey, we want some of that public money, too. and the u.s. supreme court says, yeah, you have to do this. it is where you have the recent decision where the coach was kneeling on the 50-yard line, and you had the supreme court and ignoring the evidence that this is a public school. this was a public event on a public field, where you have the power of the coach around his players kneeling in a christian prayer. now, you have to ask yourself, if maine happens to have the school of satanic devotion, are

they going to be eligible for public funds, to? so part of what you were seeing happening is this narrowing definition of what is religion, and judd lauren boebert, for instant talk about she so sick of hearing about the separation of church and state. well, that's the first amendment. but treating it as if it is made up. so, so much of what we're seeing an american is myth history, made of history used to justify policies that are absolutely abhorrent to this democracy. >> host: next call for professor carol anderson comes from pamela in upper marlboro, maryland, here in the suburbs. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. dr. anderson, it's an honor to speak with you. i'm married 36 years african-american mom of two african-american sons, and husband or i would like to know

can you speak, it's been alluded to already and you've done some, can you speak to the issue and the ideology that we are still fighting the confederacy and its ideology through the states' rights that have ensued from andrew johnson who was the present after lincolns assassination, who was a starch states' rights supporter? and he favored the restoration of the confederate states for the civil government to be back in power, and as a result during that time black codes were passed that deprived the free former slaves of the civil rights and liberties guaranteed by the federal government. for example, never got the 40 acres and a mule and as a matter of fact the former slave owners were given money for every slave that was made free, i believe in something around $300 or something to that effect inviting way, how all of this still is going on is the undercurrent today that we face

and how in the '60s there was like like a flip and like you said the republicans began to embrace the states' rights ideology and i guess i thought they were dixiecrat, but the former democrats, they were now embracing the rights of the federal government to protect african-americans and others. can you just speak to how in essence we're still fighting this confederacy and the ideology. it just change forms. >> host: pamela, before we get an answer, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself? you live in a very nice community, one of the wealthiest black majority black communities in america. have you faced some of the issues that you talked about? >> caller: i'm a public servant, a state employee and i work for under, young ladies that are on medical assistance and the undocumented who don't have health care, and we provide

healthcare and make sure that they have access so they can have healthy babies. so i'm a public servant but, and i believe in giving back. i was raised by a maternal grandmother. i lost my mom to pneumonia who happen to be a nurse at a young age such as believe in giving back. but i just see what we dealing with. i thought, this is stuff that i read about. i never thought i would be living in in a time where mys are being assaulted and having to go vote. i have family, my family came from alabama. my mom was born and raised in alabama. so to see what we have to go through, my father was born and raised in georgia. so to see what we have to face here in 2022 is just mind-boggling. i just wanted to see if you could give me -- >> guest: absolutely. and one of the things i said, i was giving a talk in virginia, and i said one of the things that women look at germany, germany had a denazification program. we never had a d confederate

position program. we never look at the confederacy and dismantle it in its entirety. instead, what we had come we started erecting statues to it. come to its leaders, robert e. lee, jefferson davis. we started we start and a text books because of united daughters of the confederacy the lost cause becomes this heroic event, and when you begin to think about what that means for the way that our children learn, what they understand so that slavery really wasn't that bad. you had really benevolent, kind owners. you had -- the enslaved were fed well. they were closed, they had housing dining, what could be so bad? and you had this big, mean, nasty north come down and trying to impose its will on these

really good, honest, hard-working noble folk. when that becomes the narrative that's in our textbooks, intellect and 1970s, and think about the battles that we've had recently over taking down these confederate monuments in these public spaces. because what that's telling us is that this is who we should be honoring. and so we've got these tectonic plates underneath american society that basically says, you know, the confederacy, they were good. slavery really wasn't that bad. i think about bill o'reilly who come after michelle obama talked about living in a house that was built by the enslaved, and on his show he said, you know, it really wasn't that bad. they were housed, they were well closed. they were well fed. so how bad could it be?

when you get that come in in the 21st century, it is the thing that we have not dealt with. we have not dealt with slavery. and when you looked at how the states are demanding a revision of the curriculum so that it doesn't make white students feel uncomfortable, that it doesn't cause a kind of sense of being ill at ease. so we don't talk about slavery. and i saw where in texas they are thinking about renaming slavery and involuntary relocation. so when you can create these euphemisms to cover the horrors of what this nation has been through, when you don't deal with the reality of a slavery, you don't do with the reality of

genocidal violence against indigenous people, you don't deal with the reality of xenophobia and are anti-immigrant policies. you don't deal with the reality of the relocation of the japanese. when you don't deal with any of those realities, you'd understand america. and, frankly, you do a disservice to america because america is an aspirational nation. we hold these truths to be self-evident. and so having folks fight to make those truths self-evident is a key piece of american history. but when you remove that and you treat those aspirations as if they already have been achieved, that is what allows for the embrace of the confederacy and the whitening up of slavery, of whitewashing of slavery. i remember i got a notice from

an organization that i have been supporting that said come visit our beautiful plantations in mississippi. come see true southern charm. and i thought, what kind of mess is this? and and i sent them a note bad i said, no more than you would herald a tour of auschwitz as a testament to fine german engineering should you look at these plantations as anything and what they are, a place where human beings were bred, were born, were beaten, were worked without pay, were tortured. these slave labor camps. you try to print it up, you do,

you defile american history. so part of what we're looking at is the defiling of american history by not dealing with the confederacy and how it was able to maintain its power through the seven democrats, and now through the republicans. >> host: should those plantations though be maintained as historic sites? >> guest: yes, they should, and they should be maintained as historic sites the same way auschwitz is maintained as a historic site. you need to have accurate history in in the sites layit what really happened there. you know, there was one of those battles, annette gordon-reed is a one to really talk about this, the battles over monticello, thomas jefferson said place, where prior to you had this, he was one of the founding fathers, he just, oh, my god, he was

brilliant, wonderful. then you're like okay, so where was sally hemmings? that narrative, that history is essential for understanding the battles that we have an american, this kind of we hold these truths to be self-evident, but we've got to protect slavery. this is, you know, we are the leader of the free world. we are the jim crow leader of the free world. that kind of dichotomy is absolutely essential for understanding this nation. >> host: next call for carol anderson come from nate in mesa, arizona. >> caller: this is a wonderful show. ms. anderson, i never watch c-span, i just happen to turn the tv on and i just got intrigued. i'm 60, black man. i live in mesa, arizona.

and i have returned to school back when i was 47, got a degree in entrepreneurship. but to go into come to go into the class i do write an english paper to get accepted into the university. and so i basically just pick a topic of the disproportionate incarceration of african-american males. from ages of 18 and 35. so i call the paper bound by law. as i was listening to you, you're a teacher. you are a professor of the masters program at emory? is that correct? >> guest: i'm a professor at emory university in the department of african-american studies, and i have history

doctoral students. >> host: and you chair. >> guest: yes. >> caller: so my grandfather was a historian, and so i was thinking i wanted to get my masters but i wasn't sure what i wanted to do. then i just turn your show on and i heard you talking. so my question is, for those who might have the same question, like, , i can't go to emory because dash does a call for any online masters program for in your classes? >> host: thank you, nate. >> guest: none of my classes are online. you know, during the height of covid we went to online classes for the kind of protection of our students and the faculty, but we are now back in the classroom. >> host: carol anderson, we always ask authors what their favorite books are are what they are currently reading. and want to go to what you said

about currently reading. usually we get specific titles, but this is a quote from an e-mail, a bazillion. [laughing] i may judge and the nonfiction category for the national book award come some of your books have been listed for that as well. >> guest: yeah, so that's why i couldn't, what are you reading? a bazillion books. i mean, they are coming in and then going through them. they are fascinating. it's really intriguing scene offers wrestle with different types of subjects across the board. >> host: this is your first time being a judge? >> guest: i judge for the national book award, right. i was a judge laster think it was for the pulitzer, but this is a first one for the national book award. >> host: how many books would you have to read it for the ceremony in november? >> guest: we get in somewhere between 600-700 books. a bazillion.

[laughing] and just plowing through them to really make sure we're making really good choices. >> host: favorite books, professor carol anderson. scene, and buried saying. norm ornstein it's even worse an it looks. steve larson, the girl who kicked the hornets nt. john dower, or witho mercy, and from here to equality. which of those five books do you want to speak to? >> guest: i think it's going to be, somewhere between desmond ward and steve larson. the girl who kicked the hornets st. i mean, i know that might sound like a really odd choice because this is a book based in sweden.

>> host: section. >>: intersection. i think i reread it maybe five, six times. i love that book. it speaks to my sense of justice. it speaks to my sense of even when you're looking at a leviathan, you can take on the leviathan and win. it's going to be hard. it's going to be tough. and so the story deals with a young woman who was brutalized by her father, but her father was basically a secret agent for the government, so they let him get away with this violence against his family. and she had had enough, you know, so this is like the first book, the girl with the dragon pad to. and so she had had enough and she sets them on fire.

they committed to and the same asylum, and then she had a ward who abuses her. and, not a ward, a trustee who abuses her. and you see this story unraveling where she's getting at the heart and soul of a corrupt government, one that the fisa constitution, one that set itself up outside the government to be more important than the representative government that was there. and she takes them on. she has an incredible journalist who is helping her. she has an attorney who sees how the law can be deployed to help her. and she has incredible computer skills to help herself. and that combination, i mean, that book speaks to me because, again, it is about justice.

it is about what is right. it is about righting a wrong. it is about holding folks accountable who abuse the trust in government, who abuse the trust of the people. >> host: we have about an hour left with our guest, author carol anderson. will put the phone numbers up on the screen if you like to die in. 202-748-8200 if you live in east and central time zones. 202-748-8201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. and if you want to send a text message instead, 202-748-8903. please include your first name and your city if you would get well so have some social media sites that we will scroll through in case you want to make a comment that way. nana, louisville, kentucky. >> caller: good afternoon, dr. anderson. almost forgot your name.

i'm an african cultural scholar, 71 years old and i've been listening to the show. i blocked it out earlier in the week that she, the dr. anderson was going to be on. i want to speak to her. but dr. anderson, as a look at her second book, and forgiving, i don't know how i don't know more of your and embitteredu because your outstanding. talking about your second book, not your -- the second, something that's happening now i want you to address. i see just in kentucky over maybe was friday four police officers were killed and a think in dash also a few days before that a young african-american man was stopped by police and he was not comfortable with him and he fled. but in that getting 90 shots fired at him. 60 entered his body. this was akron, ohio. i think his name was jason

walker in front were correctly. but anyway the crux of what i'm asking is, i want you to speak to how can come under the second amendment, we all have a right to bear arms but when it african-american person has a gun and now even in kentucky, you don't even have to have permits anymore. you can just carry, i'm thinking of getting the holster and a gun and carry it openly. then we'll have some gun control when is it african-american in mast walking around with guns on their hips. then we love gun control. what i want you to address this, the whole dynamic of the white man can kill amounts of people. somehow they can capture him without a scratch and taken to burger king. but on the flipside, as you talking about orlando casteel, an african american man doing everything lawfully with a weapon and assumes a weapon gets entered into the discussion with the white police officer, they gunned him down and they just

gunned this young boy duncan shot and 60 times. i will listen to and i'm enjoying you and your fantastic. >> host: thank you. >> guest: thank you. this is really what i'm talking about here. with the book the second. so you look at a lock who was a young man up in minneapolis was in his apartment and the police burst through a basically a no-knock warrant. he has again by them as he is asleep on the couch. they see the gun. based say threat and they shouldn't get within ten seconds. so that sense of the castle doctrine. i mean come this is what breonna taylor supposedly had and now she's dead. this is what kathryn johnston and atlanta supposedly had, , ad now she's dead. the ability to protect your home from an invasion, no. and then yes, jason walker, you

know, i'm reading through that story, and the last time i read someone gunned down in a hail of 60 bullets was the quadruple lynching in 1946 in monro georgia where two men and two women, two black women and two black women were basically executed in a hail of bullets,, and the corners report describes 60 bullets in each of their body. the kind of fear that has to generate to create that depth of violence against that young man, when you think about it, the guy who shot up the movie theater in aurora, colorado,, he was taken alive in the parking lot. and i think 12 dead, 70 wounded,

something to that effect. yes, and dylann roof guns down nine folk in church during bible study, and he is taken alive. and that is what i mean by white is not the threat. black is the default threat in american society. armed black is an exponential threat. this is why during the late 1960s in california you saw the passage of what was called the mulford act does because the black panthers were caring, openly carrying arms to police the police, because the police were raining down violence on the black community. and there was no public entity that was willing to do a doggone thing about it. and so the black panthers said we will police the police. so they knew the laws about open carry.

they knew the laws about what kind of guns they could have. they knew the laws about how far they had to stand away from the police. the police hated it from the depths and the breaths in the heights that their soul reached the hated it. so they ran -- and it conservative supplement men dash of cinnamon and said you got to help us. you've got to find a way to make what they are doing illegal because every time you pull them over we can't arrest them because they are not doing anything illegal. and so mulford writes the law with the help of the nra, and eagerly signed a republican governor ronald reagan to ban the kind of open carry that the black panthers were doing. so you don't even have to come up with a hypothetical that if black folks are carrying guns you are going to see some gun regulations happening here. we study history of that. >> host: denise, jacksonville, florida, good afternoon. >> caller: good afternoon.

i love c-span and when i found out that dr. anderson was going to be on the show, i set my tv up so i can watch it. i just want to thank ms. anderson for the books that she has written. i did not realize that i did know much about black history in america until i started reading your book "white rage." i was just shocked, and i just thank you so much. i'm going to buy the other three books that you have out there because i had decided i wanted to invest in myself to learn critical race theory after 2019 when the black lives matter movement went on, and i just didn't realize how much i did not know. so i just wanted to thank you for that. >> host: denise, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? >> caller: well, yes. i will be 65 this year. i live in jacksonville, florida.

i became interested in politics when i started learning corporate finance at the university for my undergrad degree. but when i start looking at politics and seeing all the different things that were going on and couldn't really relate to it are really couldn't give an education conversation with it, that's when i started investing in myself to learn these things. but i was just shocked. i never knew about a black code after emancipation of the slaves. i didn't know about, i didn't know myself, so what else brought it to my attention, about rosewood stored in a 1901 i believe that was tuscaloosa oklahoma. and i always say, you know, why people say black people will tear up stuff, , but where did they learned from? every time it seemed like black people would be successful, white people would get envious and jealous and try to destroy

that. so now a lot of things that didn't make sense to me, it makes sense now when i go to work and i see people act certain ways or if you can't advance on on a job regardlef your education and experience, now it makes sense to me. >> host: thank you, ma'am. we believe it there. professor? >> guest: thank you. this is why i write these books. my first two books were academic books, "eyes off the prize" and "bourgeois radicals." they were both for an academic audience but my writing style is very accessible. and so it translated really well into being able to provide these rich histories, well documented rich histories for a broader public because they're so much that we are not taught in schools, and we are seeing that push again. so in florida there is the push not to have the kinds of history back and talk about rosewood, i

can talk about florida in 1920 where you basically had ethnic cleansing because black folks there to try to vote, and whites burned down the black part of town, rant black folks out of there and for the next five decades there were no black people in a call we florida. we don't know that history. if we are not taught. if it's that made readily available to us. so that's why i do this work. because i really believe once we know our history, we are having a very different conversation about where we are as a nation and what we need to do. >> host: you mention that "bourgeois radicals" was more of a scholarly book than an accessible book. i want to read a quote from there and have you explain it, if you would. the semantic rabbit hole that made the naacp a standardbearer for imperialism and the soviet union synonymous with

anti-colonialism greased the way into a wonderland where the association disappeared, like the cheshire cat, from the histories of colonial liberation struggles. >> guest: yeah. [laughing] >> host: that's quite a sense. congratulations on that try to thank you. so what i dealing with there was that since 1971, in this book came out out in like 2015 o, since 19 dash between 14? since 1971, the histories that have been written about decolonization struggles, the role of african-americans in the decolonization struggles, the dismantling of these empires in africa and in asia, they all have championed the left, the role of the black lab, the role of the left itself, and is treated the naacp as basically water boys for truman and imperialism and colonialism.

they basically said that the naacp turned its back in 1947 with the rise of the cold war, turned its back on the struggles and basically left it to the left. well, when i was finishing up "eyes off the prize," it's that one last sweep the archives because there could be that document that just blows your whole book apart so you just want to make sure. so as i'm going through the archives, the naacp papers, and i find this letter from the somali youth league in 1949, two years after the naacp ostensibly turned its back and assess thank you so much for all of your help in the u.n., and keeping the italians off of us. i went, right. i went, what is this? excuse me? you know, you know you have hit something and that became the foundation for "bourgeois radicals."

i said i'm going to go wherever the naacp went and lord, did they go. they took on south africa. they took on the dutch in indonesia. they took on the italians for somalia, libya and eritrea. i mean, they are taking on the struggles and i figured out what they were doing was dismantling the norms that made colonialism and imperialism acceptable. so they took on the white man's burden, with the european ps would walk in the meetings going my empire is so big. my empire is bigger than your empire, right? and edwin is like i would want of that empire. they may be an imperial power not a badge of honor but the scarlet letter. and so watching how the naacp was instrumental in reshaping the norms of color empires, of imperialism. and again, where we only have a

narrative about the power of the left in doing this work, we don't understand how change is made. and i wanted to be able to excavate that narrative. because having the soviets as the avatar of all that is good and just and right in the world, no. no. there's just a longer history there. and and i wanted to make suret that was clear. having the naacp basically denigrated as a toady, that's not what the historical records show. >> host: teaching, writing books, you also do public speaking as well. you get invited quite a few places, , correct? >> guest: yes, i do. yes, i do. >> host: at what point is everything too much? >> guest: well, , we've got a documentary coming out soon. that is a great question that i'm asking myself.

but there's just so much work to do. like i said, when we started this conversation, this democracy is in trouble. it is under a full-blown assault. and to just go lord, i'm tired, just doesn't sit with my sense of justice. it doesn't sit with my sense of "the girl who kicked the hornet's nest" here it doesn't sit with my sense of right and wrong. and knowing, and knowing that the vision that the right has for this nation is a vision that will send us hurtling back to a place where we may never recover. we've got to fight. >> host: teeth, middletown, connecticut, you are on booktv with author carol anderson.

comic thank you for taking my call. i enjoyed listening to dr. anderson whenever i've had a chance to hear speak on c-span. and like many of your previous callers i was very happy when i learn that she was going to be under in-depth show today. i want to make a couple comments to get doctor anderson's thoughts about them. regarding gun rights versus voting rights, if i'm not mistaken i believe there are four constitutional amendments that deal with voting rights. and it seems like we have numerous states that are trying to put up barriers and make it more difficult for people to vote. and yet when we talk about the second amendment and people's rights to keep and bear arms, people are aghast when anyone tries to put any type of regulation or any requirement, just within the past week or two

i think it was very sad when the supreme court ruled against the new york law that requires people to show a cause for carrying a weapon outside of the home. to me it just seems like a t of hypocrisy that we can't put any type of regulation on the second amendment and people's rights to carry weapons, yet it seems we have tons of states that are trying to restrict people's rights to vote. i would just like to get the professors thoughts. >> host: thank you, sir. >> guest: and thank you for that. in fact, i had a student write a paper on that very dichotomy. and so one of the things that you see here is because the 15th amendment and the 19th amendment and the amendment the bands the poll tax and the amendment that lowers the voting age to 18, all of those have

been under assault, absolute assault. we see that, for instance, in the ways that you states removing, for instance, polling places off of college campuses, the weight in north carolina where they divided one university between two separate congressional districts as a way to dilute the voting power of the hbcu north carolina a&t. the way that they had lower,, fewer, fewer early voting days for prairie view a&m in texas than they have with surrounding wall in county. we see this consistently. we see this in the terms of the banning of the poll tax where you had in florida, went amendment four came through that we enfranchised those who had

felony convictions, and judge the porch rule after the state legislature cancer and said oh, they were scared about the ballot initiative coming through. after it won come in the state wrote a line saying okay, then you have to pay all fines, fees and restitution in order for your sentence to be complete. and the courts and the federal courts ruled that is not a poll tax, , except i don't have to py my income tax to vote their idol had to pay my property tax to vote. but here is a payment that have to make in order to be able to vote. but even worse, they added the horrors of the literacy test where, in the previous literacy test the questions with things like how many bubbles in a bar of soap? how high is up? here, the court ruled that florida does not have to tell folks how much they owe. so florida can require that you make payment, but florida doesn't have to tell you how

much that payment has to be. yeah. >> host: text message, my name is pastor ellie brown from springfield, missouri. my question is, what would you believe is the most important message that ministers should speak to in our world today? >> guest: that message, i love that question. that message is what i am hearing from reverend william barber, that this is a god and a jesus of all of us. that we are here to help all of us. that we have to heal the sick. we have to feed the hungry. we have to clothes the unshod. we have to do that work come that there is a greater humanity at stake here. when we, in fact, use, one of

the things i say, the part of, the question we only received about the role of white evangelical christianity is that this is where i talk about folks putting their hands on god and using the power of god to put forth their own agenda, instead of letting god put their hands on them. and then moving in that way forr a better world, for a safer, a a kinder, a much more humane world. that i think is the most powerful message. and giving your folks out there registered to vote and getting them to the polls. because that political realm is so important in terms of being able to create a much kinder, gentler america. >> host: next call is lou in las vegas. thanks for holding. you were on with author carol

anderson, you guys are knocking out. i've loved everything that i've heard. it's just amazing. thank you for taking my call. i grew up in los angeles. i grew up with -- i'm 71. i grew up with kids who have never heard of john holt franklin. my earliest memory was of mccarthy hearings but i didn't know what they were. i just heard my grandfather and my father crying because of what joe walsh was saying. and then i remember my mother going nuts when louis armstrong called out and said you got to do something and eisen for the icehouse in the airborne. as time went on i realized man, i'm old and i'm still hearing the same stories in the same battles and it's like, like the guy, you know, he was beating

his head against the wailing wall in israel and summaries of what he doing? he says, i'm praying for peace in the middle east and i'm praying for just for people to get along, and just like here, you know, 17 different religions and the guy says, how do you feel? he said i feel like i'm beating my head against the wall. so now six years later, and i'm thinking nothing has really changed except awareness and knowledge and people knowing about books. right now i'm reading, again i'm reading one of james baldwins great books which is the devils -- the devil finds work which takes them back to the '30s and looking at bette davis eyes and seeing himself because he had popeyes, too. now here we are and we still judge people by their looks, how beautiful they are, or how ugly they are and get we still had

this other thing going. when i was ten or 11 i -- >> host: we will leave it there and see if professor anderson has anything should like to add to that. >> guest: and so part of what oppression and part of what voter suppression, it's designed to do is to make you think that there is no hope, that it is always going to be this, it's always been this, it's never going to get any better, why bother to beat my head up against the wall? the thing is, is that it is in, the reason why we're still in this struggle is because we are still fighting. we are still fighting and oppressive force, and because we refuse to give up. we refuse to accept our subjugation. and that is so important. we refuse to seed our power. because it is in that fight. it is in that struggle where we

continue to move forward, where we continue to be able to create the knowledge, where we continue to be able to protect our communities. when we don't struggle, when we think this stuff is just messed up, then all of our protections are dissolved. that's why we fight. that's why we have to know what they gain is. >> host: text message, please ask dr. anderson if she is familiar with the work of professor john lott who has taught at yale law school and his book more guns less crime. >> guest: i am vaguely familiar with john lott. john lott is one of the heroes of the kind of second amendment school of, of individual rights, of guns, guns have you were kind

of deal, of being against gun safety regulations. as i had mentioned earlier, i i haven't been pro-gun, and again, but what i have been is for reasonable gun safety laws such as there is no reason to have semiautomatic weapons in the hands of civilians on our city streets. that just doesn't make any sense. and so it's just being really common sense about it and not doctrinaire. >> host: david in tennessee, text message. i agree with what i believe is your critique of our racist environment society, but we have created a collateral parasitic layer of well compensated commentators and helpers, many of them ensconced in universities, a critical foundation of the system, who appeared to be neutralized and subsumed sufficiently by the dominant culture.

comment? .. that was headed, then it veered in another way. i think part of what you are laying out here is that there are scholars who feed on the kind of ills in american society and to provide cover for that. and this is why having freedom within the university, the freedom of exchange of ideas within the university, are so important. because what that does, when you have evidence-based scholarship, you are allowing that evidence-based scholarship to do the heavy lifting of democracy and you are able to discern the difference between that evidence-based scholarship and

the ideologues. host: what do you think about some reports that the academia has been overtaken by the left? prof. anderson: ha! i'm sorry. host: i guess you don't agree with those reports. prof. anderson: oh lord. [laughter] sorry. i think that is also part of the smoke and mirrors that is out there, that is designed to denigrate the incredible work coming out of these colleges and universities in terms of that scholarship. if you can denigrate that scholarship, then you are able to create a new truth, a truth that is not fact-based, that is not evidence-based. and we see that happening a lot. this is wes and the left -- i've got the saying, when you talk to black scholars who are in the

academy, they are not seeing this incredible left that has taken over. they are looking at the kinds of entrenchment of power and working through that in order to do this work. host: next call comes from carol in greensburg, cap -- greensburg, pennsylvania. caller: i have a question whether any research has been done to compare, the laws have changed so significantly over the years for the disabled. i am 86 and in a wheelchair and i worked as a vision therapist for years but i also ran a program from 1958 to 1968 that was 49% black and 51% white. i have a lot positive things to say about the black community. and a local back author -- black

author convinced me to but a book, and i'm not a writer. but i would love to see more research that can prove that laws can change people's lives. and i don't think there has been anything done in comparison between race and the disabled that i can find. and i am very interested in your opinion on that. host: carol, i apologize, we are going to leave it at that first question. there's a lot there. we will see if dr. anderson has a response. thank you for calling in. prof. anderson: the role of disability laws and disability policies are absolutely essential. it is one of the key movements forward that made this nation much more humane. then seeing the way that race works in those disability policies is also essential.

there is some work done, i have seen some of it, i cannot recall the names off the top of my head right now. basically, doing library searches, a search on your local library, finding the books that are there and if you have access to a university library that can get you what is called j store so you can see the articles that have been produced that is doing this work, that will give you the kind of foundation you need to see what is out there and where your intervention would be important. host: juanita, cincinnati, good afternoon. caller: i used to be a librarian . what she could also try is the library association, it can help

you with that. also the national library of medicine. but the reason i called is i like dr. anderson and i am 71. i would grow up and see mr. rogers when i was a little girl. in our basement [indiscernible] my question is i was taken aback by a comment made earlier -- i'm not angry with her. i was wondering, how can we talk

to young people and let them know, this is not history, this is life, this is what we live? how can we show young people, this is not history, this is a continuum? thank you. prof. anderson: thank you. the question is, how do we -- we consistently are stunned by the lack of knowledge about tulsa. how many folks, until they saw watchmen, did not even know that tulsa happened? when i'm teaching the civil rights movement, i start off my class going, you know, how many have heard that the civil rights

movement is rosa sactown, martin stood up, he had a dream, and we all overcame? so when you get that incredible movement reduced to rosa and martin and overcome, then what we lose is the massive local organizing that happened. when we don't have that history, we have this sense that, this should happen quickly and all you have to have is a leader -- no. it takes a lot of folks. a lot of hours. a lot of commitment. it is knowing that history. how do we do this? how do we do this? one thing is i do have on the website five minute history called the hidden histories of civil rights.

thesivity rights veteran movement website and the documents and narrative that can provide access to the knowledge and that's what we have to begin to facing history and facing ourselves. those entities have provided much broader access to this history and this is one of the things about one person will vote, white rage and the second is that i see where we are now with what happened then so we can see the through line. we can see if it's faulkner and

the past isn't over and it's not even the past and i'm blowing the falk merri bowl line and -- faulkner line and the still with us and we're still living it. >> tweet from stuart, your books are essential to understanding the needs of complete history after the backlash against nicole hannah jones 169 project. do you know of an organized effort of the academic community to preserve the undie luted history? undiluted history. >> what i see is through the american historical association, through the american -- associations for the study of african american life at history asaalh. those organizations aree doing

the work of ensuring that archives and the archives are working overtime to make sure that the original documents and the original artifacts are still there so we can see them and we had sclc papers and we've got the signs that actually the street signs from resurrection city and supports people's campaign in 1916 and continued on after the assassination of martin luther king. you see archives and see historical organizations associations, really doing this work.

e-mails flooded from angry parents and happening in the schools and it would be backlash ofac teaching divisive history d we cannot be the nation we can be if we keep telling lies about ourselves.ab we understand how we got here. >> your course is excellent and thend professor is very, very good. i disagree with almost everything she says, but that being said my question is can

she explain why the crime rate, especially murder, in the black community inn major cities is so out of control? is that a white issue or is that totally a black issue? >> frank, before we let you go, why doo you disagree where professor anderson in >> i guess i'm on the right. some of the things i hear, i just disagree with. do you in any way consider yourself to bera a racist? >> never have but somebody might look me in the face and say differently.

but i never have. >> thank you, sir. >> the framing of that question i thought was quintessential. why do we have all of this murder happening mt. black community? remember why said 80% of african americans, over 80% of african americans are killed by african americans andri over 80% of whis are killed by whites. what we don't get -- when talking about all of this black crime, that is the narrative of black pathology and the narrative of antiblackness that i laid out in the seconds because what it's saying is that blacks are inherently violent. they're inherently criminal and so therefore we must have we being the white community must have protection against this source of incredible instability and silence. what we don't get to are

watching issues of what happens when the schools are devalued and defunded. what happens when jobs go away? what happens when we have this massive, massive discrimination happening in our employment processes and there's incredible research out there that shows if you have a racially identifiable name, the qualifications are the same as someone who does not have a racially identifiable omname. so for instance shaniqua shantae jackson has a resume and jones. jackson will have to send many multiple, multiple resumes and letters to get the interview as opposed to jennifer jones because of the inherent racial discrimination so when we're looking at the kinds of biaseshe

that are in an american society that limit access to jobs, that limit access to housing. we have incredible studies about what that means in terms of the discrimination in housing.on the discrimination in healthcare when looking -- the discrimination in policing. when we're looking at all of this. when we're just asking about black folks killing black folks and we're not looking at whites who kill whites and not looking at kinds of structural inequalities that are there in american society, then we're not asking for a real answer. we'reoc asking for that kind of sound bite answer. >> i like everything you're saying and i'm loving the show and i disagree with everything you're saying. >> i smile because i've had that before and i'm like great.

come with the limitation and valid research studies. i just know, doesn't work but this is what i mean about the kind of undermining of academia and it undermines the rigor of the research to make how i feel become part as policy early intervention program stead of the rigorsst of the work. >> hi, sherrilynn. >> hello, good afternoon. after. thank you, dr. anderson, for your work and my question has to

do with whether or not i can address what appears to use a lot of how other populations in this country that are nonwhite and not black seem to pile on and promote or perpetuates bias against the black race, and if there's any comments you can a makeha comments that address wih ideas in the country to better position and have an early intervention program pact on the economy.

>> dealing with how jap needs americans -- japanese americans became thear minority and having the civil rights movement happening and this force saying america must become america.

there's a backlash putting up asian americans as model minorities as opposed to black folks and she lice out, she -- lays out this d question, how do we go from the chinese exclusion act and the act and the internment of the japanese and the internment of immigration in the forecast and how do we get from that kind of policy to model minority in the 1960s. from not being white from the 1890s and the 1960s and you're having the civil rights movement

and that kind of thing elevates and they believe in family. asians believe in the handout and that kind of model minority and one of the things that have tcolonial and we all are in ths together. we all work together. we see w this with a coalition f workers down inon florida that deal with tomato growers and in

this organization and you have whites all working together and the working conditions in the tomato field in florida. when folks will try to split them apart it's no. no. that's so essential and this is again why i go back to reverend bawilliam barber and the movemet he create second-degree multiracial, multiethnic, multireligious and that's where the power lies. >> i have a question.

from the early 1800s up to 1900s and we need more and when you have the book and the articles, i park at naacp and more they have done for people of color and oppression for society in the u.s. and -- outside the u.s. and inside the u.s. and gave me another perspective on them but i think currently they have in my opinion dropped the bar in an effort in being able to affect real change for people of color in america. c >> we're going to leave it there, but i did want to ask you, is your research personal or is it professional?

>> personal right now. i wish i had a teacher like her, and i'm from -- i went to morgan state and i wish i had a teacher like her in morgan state at the time i went. >> thank you, darryl, for calling in. >> now, kind of sort of too vague to be specific because i really focused in on the 1940s in taking through the 1960s. going through the organizations that are following through in my work and american committee own africa, acoa and seeing those organizations and how they're

deploying their strength and how they were succumbing to the weaknesses was absolutely essential for me in terms of laying out how the struggle for de-colonization worked. >> six books down, is there another in the works? >> there's one in my head. >> do you want to share with us. we'll do a little group therapy with you on it. >> we're titling the ties that bind in silence. african american response with a political ties and in my initial research, one of the things i found is -- let me give you a broader concept in that is that what i'm intrigued by are organizations that say they're there for the people and i'm

lacking at black liberal organizations and i'm not seeing them l really engage with the violence down in haiti in congo. why when they had been fighting for the area. >> being stunned at the silence

and they're erupting in the violence. what i am seeing and all over south africa for the violence and massacre that rained down in sharpville and i went so they get the protection of black folk. they getot how they've got pulp. then i see them really getting engaged in the civil war. then my question is, why from the same decade that i didn't see in the first two. >> the last two hours our guest has been h anderson and three of the most recent books including white rage, unspoken cuth for

racial divide and the outer suppression is destroying our democracy and her most rect book, the second racing guns in fatally unequal america. thank you for your time on this sunday. >> thank you so much. this is wonderful. >> use the qr code on the screen and receive the schedule for upcoming programs with book festivals and more. book tv every sunday on cspan2 and online at booktv.org.