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>> along with of these television companies supporting c-span2 asy a public service. >> july 3rd, 2022. what is the3, july 4th 1776 a 16 celebration to you? >> it means that we are in this democracy we are heralding on july 4th, 1776. we are in a perilous time. to me as perilous as it was with the continental army it looked like they were getting their butts kicked as perilous as it looked when the south attacked fort sumter and launched the civil war. we are in perilous times where the democracy is hanging by a thread. >> why do you say that? >> because we've got what i cali a land to sea and air attack

that is happening right now on the democracy. it is the assault on voting rights. the sea attack is the attack to wash away the teaching of real american history. and of the air attack is the loosening of gun law while having a narrative that the insurrection was legitimate and political discourse and while seeing that there was all of this violence and threat raining down on o election workers and officials. a so when you're looking at what's happening with voting and what's happening with our education system andem the way the narratives come to understand this nation. when you look at the tool of politics, we are under a full-blown of salt aided and abetted by the u.s. supreme court. aided and abetted by hyper

extreme partisan gerrymandering legislation legislatures we are in trouble and where the hope is is that we have always fought back. we've always known that thiscr democracy was worth the fight so we have to gear up again and fight for this democracy. there've been some comparisons made to the pre- civil war times right now. can you make that comparison and see that? the citizens humanity and the belief that people had rights

and that believe there is this thing called a democracy. on the other hand you have those that have what i want to say is a democracy where you have the labor pool that then go up to a small strata and then what that has done is they have convinced a larger number that they too can get the benefits of this set of resources coming up from this labor pool but that isn't how this works so you are getting the sense where only a small strata have full-blown rights versus a democracy that is multiracial and multiethnic and religious and vibrant. so those two visions of what the nation is and can be is where

the collision course is. >> i want to focus on three of your books and that includes one person, no vote, wide rage and the second. they all seem to have come from incidences that happened and you tell me if this is a fair comparison. one person, no vote. we had the gubernatorial race. white rage, and the second philander ro casteel. is that a good wayha to put it? >> almost in that one person no vote emanated out of the 2016 election because there what struck me was the pendants to say hillary lost because black folks just didn't show up. you know she is like hillary. she's not obama. so black folks just stayed home.

what that analysis did is it ignored the fact that this was the first presidential election in 50 years without the protection r of the voting righs act which the u.s. supreme court had gutted in 2013 so once you begin to factor inn you had a number of states implementing voter suppression techniques such as racially discriminatory voter id laws and limiting early voting in closing the polling places in black communities, once you begin to look at that, you're coming up with a very different narrative about what happened in 2016. >> what isha a racially tingedan voter id law? >> i love that question. thank you. alabama with its voter id laws said you must have a government issued photo id.

but the public housing id does not count as government issued photo id. 71% of those in public housing in alabama were african-american. and what they t found is that fr many it was the only government issued photo id they had. then governor bentley shut down the department of motor vehicles in the black belt counties. when the government issued photo id that you have doesn't count so okay i will get a drivers license but then the drivers license bureau's are shut down and you have to go 50 miles to get a drivers license but if you don't have a drivers license how do you go the 50 miles round-trip? and public transportation is ranked 48th in the nation so

it's not like you can just hop on for the public transportation to go that 50 miles. that's what, i mean, by the racially discriminatory voter id laws. >> let's take a look at white rage. michael brown is that where that book stems from, is that fair? we had a workshop leader that day and i've got the tv on and the news is just blaring and it didn't matter which channel i was watching because ferguson missouri was on fire and the pendants were all saying look at this black rage. who burns up where they live, black folks brought where they live, can you believe all this black rage and it didn't matter which channel i had on.

it was the same narrative. i lived in missouri for like 13 years and so i found myself shaking my head going know this isn't black rage, this is why it rage and this is what i came up we are soas a nation focused on the flames that we missed the kindling. we missed the policies that are in place that generate that explosion. hwe miss what we do with education and housing. we miss what we do with the criminal justice system and voting rights. we miss all of those key fundamental basics of life in america and the policies that systematically undermined them m and then turn around and say look at a black folks burning up where they live without looking at the white rage underneath it.

it's not about violence but rather it works its way through the courts. the legislatures and a range of government bureaucracies. the trigger for white rage inevitably is black advancement. >> this is what being a historian allowed me to do. it was to see the patterns. it was to see after the civil war when you have emancipation. this massive backlash happened with of the black coats trying to reinstall slavery by another , name and then having andrew johnson systematically undermine what the civil war should have been about and then the u.s. supreme court got the 13th, 14th and 15th amendment as well as the enforcement act and the force act that dealt with racial

discrimination and public facilities as well as going after white domestic terrorism. so these governors into the u.s. supreme court issuing these executive orders and the law that undermines that advancement of what freedom meant, that's why it rage and i carry it through to the great migration, through the civil rights movement. >> you talk about how it wasn't fully implemented. part of what we see in san antonio is that you had this massive disparity so you've got this sense of equalityty under e amendment, equal protection under the law so in a

neighborhood in san antonio it was overwhelmingly mexican-american and african-american. they were taxing themselves at the highest level allowed but still only able to generate a few dollars like $21 per student per capita, whereas the edgewood district, which was a wealthy white suburb of san antonio basically tax themselves at a much lower rate but because of property values, they were able to generate so much more, hundreds of dollars per capita. so the parents, the mexican-american parents sue itd saying this is fundamentally unequal. we are taxing ourselves at the highest rate but because of public policy that has devalued our property. we cannot generate enough income, enough tax dollars to

adequately fund a quality education for our children. the u.s. supreme court looked at that and said equality does not require equal funding. so that kind of disparity that you saw then and we see now was blessed on high by the u.s. supreme court. carol anderson your most recent book is the second race in guns on a fatally unequal america. 42illion african americans in the state according to recent statistics, 25% of them are gun owners. that's doubling in the last ten to 20of years. >> i'm not surprised. one of the things i look at is how access to guns, that antiblack mr. removed the second amendment so regardless of the

legal status of african-americans, enslaved, that piece between citizen and enslaved, emancipated african-american, jim crow african-american, civil rights movement african-american, obama african-american. regardless of that kind of legal status and the progress that we have made, the fear of black people has created this crisis that we are looking at. it's driven the second amendment so african-americans buying guns when yous begin to think about the terror that has rained down inon this society use all the ue right-wing militia during obama's presidency. you sawe the rise of the white gun ownership during obama's presidency. then we had trump and use all

the embrace of white white supremacists. and use all because of the technology, the kind of police violence that rains down on black folks, so you have african-americans doing what they have consistently done which is to say we have to defend ourselves in this society. nobody's coming to help us. >> was this a book you thought you were going to write? is this something you thought about for quite a while? >> no, actually. it was really the killing of phil landro casteel. my body of work deals with human rights and civil rights. when he was gunned down by a police officer because he had a license carrying a weapon, that's why he was gunned down,

the national rifleri association went virtually silent on this killing of a man simply because he had a gun and so you had pendants asking don't african-americans have second amendment rights? and i thought that is a great question. that is a question that i have not explored yet. i found this incredible fear of the enslaved andle free blacks d the law coming through to try to deal with this fear to try to protect the white community from the enslaved and a key element in that was disarmament for the banning of access to guns. so use all the walls coming out

of virginia and south carolina where thou shall not have guns for those who were enslaved and for free blacks and you saw this coming through in the constitutional ratification convention where you get to virginia and virginia is like i'm not really sure about this and why virginia wasn't so sure about this constitution thing, one of the key elements you had patrick henry and george mason saying this militia that we need to keep the enslaved in check, james madison has put control of that under the federal government under congress and so we can't rely upon the feds to defend usp. when they arise up because that federal government has folks in there from

pennsylvania. they are not going to be coming down here to defend us so we need to have the protection or we will be left defenseless and they basically threatened to scuttle the ratification. when that didn't work we threatened to hold a new constitutional convention. madison was scared out because the articles of confederation hadn't worked so they pushed through this new constitution that gave the federal government enhanced powers, but there was a fear the federal government's too powerful and this is why we have in the first congress the bill of rights but when you think about that bill of rights, freedom of religion, the right not to be illegally searched and besieged, the right to a speedy and fair trial and not have

cruel and unusual punishment, the right to a well regulated militiaa for the security of a free state, that is an outlier that is basically the bribe to the south to not hold a new constitutional convention. it is to say you are protected. the militia is safe. >> were you surprised at what you found out about the second amendment? >> i really was. i thought because so much of our discussion today about the second amendment is about the individual right to bear arms or was this really about a militia so we get this binary going on. all about individual rights coming out of this decision and defend the mcdonald decision. or is this about the militia that had long held that this was about a militia but that

argument is irrelevant because the foundation of the second amendment is the fear of blackness, black people defining african-americans as criminal as a threat, as dangerous, as violent and that the community has to be protected. that's when things began to make sensee in its own way so as i walk through this book i take this up to the 21st century and i'm seeing the ways that we understand with open carry able to defend your home against an invader.

those kinds of doctrines that become foundational, stand your ground. this kind of doctrines that become foundational when applied to african-americans they don't hold. in an open carry state, 12-year-old boy playing in the park by himself in cleveland with a toy gun. ohio is an open carry state that says as long as you are not threatening anyone, you can carry your weapon openly. he wasth dangerous, he was a threat and juxtaposed to kyle

rittenhouse where you have a 17-year-old who has an ar 15 where there is a black lives matter protest and the police are like we are so glad you areo here. you want some water, it is hot and he then shoots three people. two of them he kills and walks back towards the police officers with his hands up. they don't see threat or danger. they are not afraid. were you in any way, shape or form a gun a person prior to writing your most recent book? >> a gun person, no it wasn't like i was pro-gun or anti-gun. i was just here and it was like iai said it was this discussion

that sent me down this path of tryingng to find do african-americans have second amendment rights? i have always, generally been one that has said we need to be reasonable about guns and so semi automatic weaponspo readily available makes no sense to me. so the basic logic i've been there on the basic logic. >> welcome back to the booktv studio this ishe the first timen two and a half years that we have been back with a guest in w

the studio and we are pleased that it's the professor and author carol anderson. if you've been listening you've heard some of the topics we are going to be talking about today. your participation is key. here's how you can get through and here are the phone numbers if you live in the east or central time zones, (202)748-8200 was the number for you to call and if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones (202)748-8201 if you would like to make a comment, here's the text number for text messages only please include your first name and a city if you would (202)748-8903. we will also scroll through the social media site. twitter, facebook. just remember at booktv if you would like to make a comment on any of those sites and we will begin takingki those in just a w

minutes. carol anderson how long have you been at emory? >> i got there in 2009 from the university of missouri where i was there for 13 years. >> why did you move yourself to georgia? >> emory is an amazing university and it was an opportunity to really grow and thrive and to be in a place surrounded by scholars that are asking really tough hard questions and seeking the answers. and then there's atlanta, which is an amazing city. >> columbia missouri, atlanta. where did you start life? >> columbus, ohio.

that's not accurate. my father was in the military, so i was born on an army base and then we lived in germany for several years and then when he retiredre from the military aftr 20 plus years he moved to columbus ohio because he wanted my brother to go to ohio state. so that's where i did a lot of my growing up in columbus ohio. >> and where did you go to school? >> my undergrad and masters are at miami university in oxford ohio and my phd is from the ohio state university. >> why did you decide to become a scholar? would appeal to you about getting a phd? >> i love learning. there were always books in the home and always discussions in the house about what was happening in the world, about

politics, injustice. it was me trying to figure this thing out. i had wonderful mentors along the way that really helped me figure out how to become a scholar. there was the professor who was my common law professor at miami. i'm going through the i'm getting ready to get thrown out of this class it's a five hour class i'm going to lose full-time status rolling through my head. i walk up after class and he said have you ever thought about going to graduate school? yes but i have no idea how to get there and he's like come with me.

they help shepherd me through what can be a very opaque process. but it's the natural love of learning. i was one of those kids who would read the world book encyclopedia and then read it over again in case i miss something. >> what doha you teach at emory? >> i teach the 20th century 20th centuryafrican-american hir crimes and genocide and american human rights policy i also taught the cold war foreign policy.

what we have is a deployment of representation. it was the same way that the republicans tapped alan keyes to run against obama thinking here's somebody that ought to just end it was the same thing with herschel walker. we see someone that has a history ofle violence and someoe who consistently lies about his credentials and someone that hasn't followed through policy. the reason he's there is because he's black, not because he can do the heavy lifting of being a u.s. senator.

it was a cynical ploy. so, the answer that he gave how would you handle the issue of guns and he said you've got this disinformation so what we need to have the department that looks at a young men looking at the young women on social media because of constitutional rights and it was like a hard drive that has been corrupted. then he strung them together. i know i need to say something about social media. i need to say something about constitutional rights and disinformation and that's what we got but that was a policy,

that wasn't thoughtful so it is in fact insulting to think black folks are going to run that way, that's not enough. >> have you ever been in ebenezer when the pastor is preaching? >> no i haven't. >> is it hard to get in at that point on a sunday morning can anyone come in? >> ebenezer is a story to church. it is like bed rock foundational to the history of black atlanta and the civil rights movement. a lot of news reports indicated

that the 2022 georgia primary election after the legislature legislaturemade some changes tog wall went very smooth and there was good turnout. >> i'm going to liken that to how subversive can this be when we had this great turnout? what it doesn't look at is all of the mobilization of civil society and all of the work of the new georgia project. all of the work of the black lives matter fund. all of the work of the naacp. all of the work of the aclu and asian americans advancing justice. all of those groups trying to move folks through under, beyond, b over, across the barriers that the georgia legislature set in place. so i would liken it to somebody

tries to rob you they don't succeed. you're able to send them off, there's a group of folks able to send them off. does the fact they were not able to be successful wash away the fact they try to rob you? know, because they tried but you had a group of folks that help you fend off that person that was mugging you. and so, when you look at 202 it is a mugging of georgia voters. it is predicated on the lie of massive voter fraud no one can prove because it didn't happen. it's predicated on how we stop because we had a credible turnout in the 2020 election and

the 2021 runoff. the blacken voter turnout was almost 92%. now when you're in a democracy that's multiracial, you and brace that kind of turnout. we do something right. how do we continue on with thisn unless you are going for the democracy how do we stop this? professor anderson, last question before we get to calls in all your books the subject of human rights plays a role. human rights are so foundational. it was my first book it was my dissertation that became my first book eyes offth the prize.

i asked the question how could all of the blood, all of the courage, all of the effort by civil rights folks lead to an america with the life expectancy as african-americans have declined where you're having massive disparities of infant and mortality rates where you're having massive wealth gaps that shape the kind of ways people can move through this society. how could the civil rights movement that is one of the things we herald if we look at this going we have overcome, this is the unfinished business of democracy handling that business. how could all of that have still left the america that wehe are . what my research showed was we

have a civil rights movement not aa human rights movement and i wondered how that happens. how will he get his civil rights before his human rights and everybody's like what i found was that you had the naacp and w. e. b. du boise saying the same thing a generation earlier. malcolm was the first want to say it andte that's when i found thed power of the cold war and anti-communism in the mccarthy witchhunt the right to education and housing. of those are the things the soviets want and if you are a patriot, you don't want that and

how the witchhunts were systematically just targeting african-americans and african-american organizations vying for this human rights platform to the point where. for the civil rights and saferr doesn't mean safe because we know the violence that rains downnoat on folks fighting for l rights. but it became politically safer to be able to argue on a civil rights platform. all we want is what's in the bill of rights. the right for housing and healthcare, the right for employment, the right to leisure. looking at the universal declaration of human rights because the un had also been cast as a communistic organization by the right-wing in american politics.

what that looks like as we go through this america. >> i promise that is the last question before we go to calls. >> i a enjoy seeing your lecturs on c-span when you speak to college students. but my question is stacey abrams changed her position and used to be against the idea of requiring people when they vote to present id and recently changed the position can you explain why?

part of what you're seeing is the work of the sense that voter ids are reasonable. everybody has an id and we have voter fraud. so it's not that much to ask for people to show an id in order to protect democracy. they look at the polls and it's like 70% of americans believe that voter fraud happens on a regular basis or like 50% believe that it happens regularly. so coming up against peptide, it allows for the discussion about. when you've got most americans believing that voterer id are fe

because again it plays to a middle-class norm and the racial discrimination that is inherent in the way the states deployed the variety, it felt like a battle too far. >> cornelius, alexandria louisiana good afternoon to you. >> i'm really enjoying. i see you are a history professor and i was telling the call screener i happen to be african-american. i was a democrat for a long time, but i joined the republican party because it's different things than the democrats were doing. my parents were kennedy democrats but republicans first because the republican party

helped out african-americans. my question, i believe in god, guns, the bible, bullets. this is a representative republic, it'sve not a democracy so we are supposed to be a representative or constitutional republic. i agree with you on racism. when casteel got murdered, the cop should have never done that and the nra should have said something. after the civil war, the nra was trying to teach gun ownership to protect where the democrats had the clan and stuff so i don't know if you know the history of the democratic party of the klan was the military wing of the democratic party. they were the ones that came up with the jim crow laws.

>> very quickly, why are you a republican today? >> because the democrats have lied to us. they've always wanted to be funded the police, they don't want us to have guns. we are killing ourselves with gang members and drug dealers and stuff so all of us need to be armed. >> thank you very much. professor, has somebody raised that point to you in class? >> there were a couple of points. one is what the democrats are and yes after the civil war the democrats were the party of white supremacy. one of the things thatt has happened, and it's cold the soberness strategy. with the southern strategy did was as the democrats began to deal with the rights for african-americans because the

great migration and because african-americans were moving out of the jim crow south you had the republicans going there is gold in those hills of white resentment about civil rights andng you see it being deployedn 48 and in 52. you see it being deployed in 64 and particularly with richard nixon and 68 and with ronald reagan and 80 so if you wonder why we have this demographic shift, it is because of the southern strategy and where the republicans brought in this sense of anti-civil rights as their mantra. and with the issue about guns and killing each other, one of the things we often hear about is black on black crime, that is the narrative of the black pathology.

yes over 80% of black people are killed by black people. over 80% of white people are killed by white people, but we don't have the narrative with white on white crime. why is that? sometimes we have to ask ourselves the next question. and what you also have is you had washington, d.c. and chicago implementing gun safety laws to try to deal with the homicide rates in those cities. you had of the u.s. supreme court first in the heller decision and then the mcdonagh decision undermine those safety laws and use all guns flooding in to those communities again so this is why after you faulty, while you have governor abbott talking about whatt about chicago, because that becomes the kind of trope of black

violence that gets deployed consistently. >> text message from kelvin in baltimore.er good afternoon, doctor anderson. how does the evangelical right play a part in fueling society presumably and its influence in the supreme court and the federalist society? >> the role of white evangelical christianity is powerful. it became a force in the 70s and took hold in the 80s and has not let go. there's a wonderful book called the longth southern strategy tht looks at the three pillars of this strategy. one of those is racism.

another pillar is patriarchy and the other is white evangelical christianity. and the role that it plays in the domination of the republican party and its shaping of those policies so we are seeing this in the recent decision where you have where maine was only funding secular schools and vouchers for secular schools and where you had of these white evangelical christian schools going we want some of that public money and the supreme court says yeah you have to do this it's where you have the recent decision where the coach was kneeling on the 50-yard line and you have the supreme court ignoring the evidence that this is a public school, this was a public event on a public field where you have the power of the

coach around his players kneeling in a christian prayer. you have to ask yourself if maine happens to have the school of satanic devotion, will they be eligible for public funds? part of what you're seeing happening is this narrowing definition of what is religion and you have lauren for instance talking about she's so sick of hearing about the separation of church and state. that's the first amendment. treating it as if it is made up so so much of what we are seeing in america is made up history used too justify policies that are absolutely abhorrent to this democracy. >> next call for the professor comes from pamela in upper marlboro maryland. >> thank you for taking my call.

andl. it is an honor to speak wh you. i am a married, 36 years mom of two african-american sons with a husband and i would like to know can you speak to, it's kind of been eluded to already but can you speak to the issues and the ideology that we are still fighting the confederacy and its ideology through the states rights? that have ensued from andrew johnson who was the president after lincoln's assassination who was a staunch state rights supporter and favored the restoration of the confederate states for the civil government to be back in power and as a result during that time, the former slaves of the civil rights and liberties that were guaranteed by the federal government, for example they never got there 40 acres and a mule and as a matter of fact the former slave owners were given

money for every state that was made free something around $300 or something to that effect. but anyway, how all of this still is going on in the undercurrent today that we face and how in the 60s it's like there was a flip and like you s said the republicans began to embrace the state rights ideology and i guess i thought they were dixiecrat's, the former democrats embracing the government to protect african-americans and others. can you speak to how in essence we are still fighting this confederacy and the ideology? it's transformed. >> before we get an answer, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? you live in a very nice community, one of the wealthiest majority black communities in america. have you faced some of the issues you talk about? >> i'm a public servant, i'm a

state employee and i work for young ladies on medical assistance and the undocumented hewho don't have healthcare. we provide healthcare and make sure they have access. sorv i'm a public servant. i was raised by a maternal grandmother. i believe in giving back but i see what we are dealing with and i thought this is stuff i read about.li i never thought i would be living in a time when my rights were being assaulted and having to go vote. my family came from alabama. my mom was born and raised in alabama so to see what we have to go through, my father was born and raised in georgia. to see what we face here in 2022 it's mind boggling. i just wanted to see if she could give me a little [inaudible]

>> one of the things, i was giving a talk in virginia and i said one of the things when we look at germany, germany had 18 nazi program. we never had a deacon federalization program. we never looked at the confederacy and dismantled it in its entirety. instead, we started erecting statues to it, to its leaders, robert ely,je jefferson davis. we started having in our textbooks because of the united daughters of the confederacy the lost cause becomes this heroic event and when you begin to think about what that means or the way our children learn, what they understand so it really wasn't that bad, you had a benevolent o kind of owners. they were fed well and closed.

they had housing. what could bee so bad and you have this big nasty north coming down and trying to impose its will on these good, honest, hard-working noble folks. when that becomes the narrative that is in our textbooks until like the 1970s and think about the battles that we have had recently over taking down these confederate monuments in these public spaces because what that is telling us is that this is who we should be honoring and so we've got these tectonic plates underneath that basically says the confederacy was good, slavery and really wasn't that bad.ll i think about bill o'reilly who after michelle obama talked about living in a house that was built by the enslaved and on his

show he said it really wasn't that bad. they were housed, clothed, well fed so how badad could it be. when you get that coming into the 21st century, it is the thing we haven't dealt with. we haven't dealt with slavery and when you look at how these states are demanding a revision of the curriculum so that it doesn't make white students feel uncomfortable, that it doesn't cause a sense of being ill at ease and so we don't talk about slavery and i saw where in texas thinking about renaming slavery and involuntary r relocation. when you can create these euphemisms to cover the horror of what this nation has been

through, when you don't deal with the reality of slavery, you don't w deal with the reality of genocidal violence against indigenous people and the reality of xena phobia and anti-immigrant policies, you don't deal with the reality of the relocation r of the japanes. when you don't deal with any of those realities, you don't understand america and frankly you do a disservice to america because america is an aspirational nation. we hold these truths to be self-evident so having folks fight to make those things self-evident is a key piece of american history but when you remove that and treat those aspirations as if they've already been achieved, that's what allows for the embrace of

the confederacy and whitening up of slavery, whitewashing of slavery. i remember i got a notice from an organization that i had been supporting that said come visit our beautiful plantations in mississippi. comeis see true southern charm d i thought what kind of mess is this and i sent a note back and said no more than you would herald a tour of auschwitz as a testament to find german engineering should you look at these plantations as anything other than what they are. a place where human beings were born and bred and beaten and worked without pay, tortured.

the slave labor camps. when you try to pretty it up, you defile american history so part of what we are looking atca is the defiling of american history by not dealing with the confederacy and how it was able to maintain its power through the southern democrats and now through the republicans. >> should've those plantations will be maintained as historic sites? >> yes, they should and they should be maintained in thee se way that auschwitz is maintained as a historic site. you need to have accurate history laying out what really happened there. there was one of those battles and annette gordon reed is the r one to talk about this, the battles over monticello.

thomas jefferson's place where prior you had this he was one of the founding fathers, he was brilliant, he was wonderful then okay so where was sally hemmings? but narrative is essential for understanding the battles we have in america. this kind of we hold these truths to be self-evident but we've got to protect slavery. we are the leader of the free world. we have a jim crow leader of the free world. that kind of dichotomy is essential for understanding this nation. >> next call for carol anderson comes from nate in mesa arizona. >> this is a wonderful show. i never watch c-span i just happened toap turn the tv on.

i just got intrigued. i am a 60-year-old black man in mesa arizona and i had returned back to school when i was 47, got a degree in entrepreneurship. to go into the class i had to write an english paper to get accepted into the university so i basically picked a topic of the disproportionate incarceration of african-american males ages of 18 and 35 so i called the paper bound by law and as i was listening to you, your teacher, professor of a masters program

at emory is that correct? >> i'm a professor at emory university in the department of african-american studies andi i have history doctoral students. >> my grandfather was a historian and so i was thinking i want to get my masters but i wasn't sure what i wanted m to o then i turned your show on and heard you talking and my question is for those who might have the same question i can't go to emory, does it offer any online masters programs for your classes? >> thank you, nate. >> none of my classes are online. during the height of covid we went to online classes for the kind of protection of our students and the faculty but we are now back in the classrooms.

>> carol anderson, we always ask authors with their favorite books are or what they are currently reading and i want to go to what you said currently reading. usually we get to specific titles, but this is a quote from an e-mail. .. >> .

>> [laughter] and plowing through them to really make sure they were really good choic fam books on —- favoriteks. the girl who kicked the hornets nest. war without mercy kristin mullen the girl who kickedo

the hornets nest. i knt sounds like a really our choice because this is a book based in sweden isi fiction. i think i have reread it five or six times. i love that book. speaks to my sense of justice. it speaks to my sense even when you look at the leviathan on. you can take on the leviathan on and win. it's going to be hard, it's going to be tough. and then getting away with violence against his family

and she had had enough so this is the first book the girl with the dragon tattoo. they commit her to and insane asylum and she has a ward who wabuses her not a ward but a trustee who abuses her. and so you see the story of traveling where she gets at the heart and soul of a corrupt government one that defies the constitution setting itself up outside the government to be more important than the representative government that was there and she takes them on there is an incredible journalist who is helping her she has and attorney who sees how the law can be deployed

and she has incredibly will computer skills it is aboutro writing a wrong and holding folks accountable who abuse the trust of government and abuse the trust of the people. >> we have one hour left with our guest.

>>caller: good afternoon. i am an african cultural scholar and i have been listening to the show. i blocked it out earlier in the week that doctor anderson was on i wanted to speak to her but as i looked at your second book and forgive me, i don't know but i - - you are outstanding but that something is happening now i want you to address for police officers were killed a young african-american man was stopped by police wasn't

comfortable with him and he fled but he got 90 shots for howard at him so how under the second amendment we all have the right to bear arms you don't even have to have a permit anymore and then we have some gun control

fear that has to generate, to create that depth of violence against that young man. when you think about it, the guy

who shot up the movie theater in colorado, he was taken alive in the parking lot. i think 12 dead? 70 wounded, something to that effect. dylan roof, guns down nine folk in church during bible study, and he is taken alive. that is what i mean by white is not the threat, black is the default threat in american society. armed black is an exponential threat. this is why during the late 1960's, in california, you solve the passage of what was called the mulford act. that was because the black panthers were openly carrying the black panthers was openly carrying arms to police the police because they were

raining down violence on that community and there was no public entity that was willing to do it does on thing about it so the black panthers said we will police the police soco they have laws about open carry and what kinds of guns they could have and how long they had to stand away from the police they hated it. and then you have got to because we cannot arrest them because they are not doing anything illegal. so with the help of the nra and eagerly signed to band the kind of open carry that the black panthers were doing you don't even have to come up with the hypothetical to see

the gun regulation happening here.oo until i start reading your book i was shocked and thank you so much i decided i wanted to invest in myself to learn about critical race theory

there was so much i did not know soho thank you for that. host: tell us about yourself. >> i live in jacksonville florida learning corporate finance from university from my undergrad degree. but looking at politics thing that was goingul on and cannot relate to it

and well-documented rich histories

because there is so much we are not taught in schools and to see the push again so in florida there is a push not to have the kinds of history in 1920 where basically you have ethnic cleansing because black folks dared to try to vote and ran the black folks out and for the next five decades there were no black people we don't know the history. i really believe once we know our history are having a very different conversation a very are as a nation. i will read a quote from

there and have you explain the semantic rabbit hole that made the naacp a standardbearer f the soviet union synonymous for anti- colonialism and where the association disappeared congratulations on that. >> since 1971 in this book came out in 2016, since 2014 that then the histories that have been written of the id colonization struggles the role of the african-american that is handling of the empires in africa they all

champion to the left of the role in treating the naacp as waterways for truman and imperialism in colonialism and basically say the naacp turned its back in 1947 with the rise of the cold war and turning it back to the left. when i was finishing up eyes on the prize there could be that document that blows the old book apart so going to the archives and in 18492 years after the naacp turned its back and said thank you so much for all of your help to keep the italians off of us.

what is this? excuse me? and then i will go wherever the naacp. they took on the dutch in indonesia and the italians. and they are taking on the struggles. and i figured out what they were doing was dismantling the norm that made colonialism and imperialism acceptable. they took on the white and spurred and when they said on —- burden my empire is bigger than yours. they made being an imperial power not a badge of honor better scarlet letter.

watching how the naacp is instrumental in reshaping the norms of the colonial empires of colonialism. we only have a narrative about the power of the left we don't understand how change is made. i want to excavate that narrative. having the soviets of the avatar all that is good and justice in the world, there is a longer history there and i went to make sure that was clear having the naacp denigrated that is what the historical record shows. host: teaching, writing books you also do public speaking and are invited quite a few

places. >> that is a great question there is so much work to do this democracy is in trouble that is a full-blown assault it doesn't sit with my sense of right and wrong. and knowing the vision the right for the nation to send is hurling back to a place we

may never recover. >>caller: thank you for taking my call i enjoy listening to doctor anderson. like many of your previous collars i was happy when i learned should bee on your show today. i want to make a couple of comments. gun rights versus voting rights and it seems like we have numerous for barriers to making it more difficult for people to vote but yet talking about the second amendment of

people's rights to keep and bear arms people are aghast when anyone tries to put any type of regulation or requirement and just within the past week or two it was very sad when the supreme court against the new york law to show a cause to carry a weapon outside of the home so to me it seems like hypocrisy that we cannot put any type of regulation on the second amendment in the rights to carry weapons and then we have tons of states trying to restrict people's rights to vote to. host: we got the point. >> we had a student write a paper on that very dichotomy

so because of the 15th amendment in the 19th amendment and the amendment that andnd the poll tax all of those have been under assault we see that in the ways polling places off of college campuses. and in north carolina where they divided one university between two separate congressional districts as a way to dilute —- to with the voting power to have fewer early voting days for a&m in texas and the surrounding county and we see this

consistently with the banning of the poll tax where in florida when amendment through came through those who had felony convictions after the state legislature came through then the state wrote to say you have to pay all fines and fees and restitution for your sentence to be complete and the federal court ruled that is not a poll tax except that i have to pay my income tax to vote i don't have to pay my property tax to vote. here's a payment have to make to vote? that they use the literacy test like how many bubbles in a bar of soap?

how high is up. here the court ruled the court does not have to tell folks how much they oh. so florida can require you make payments but they have to tell you how much the payment has to be. host: text message hi doctor anderson him from springfield missouri what do you believe is the most important message that ministers should speak to in our world today? >> i love that question that is what i hear from william barbour that this is a guide and in jesus for all of us to help all of us we have to heal

the sick and feed the hungry and we have to do that work there is a greater humanity at stake.rl the question earlier of christianity this is right talk about folks putting their hands on god and using the power to put forth their own agenda. common to move in that way for a better world. a kinder and much more humane world and then getting folks out there registered to vote and to the polls so that political realm is so

important with a much kinder and gentler america. host: las vegas go ahead. >>caller: you are knocking me out. everything that i have heard is amazing. thank you for taking my call i grew up in los angeles. i am 71 and i grew up with kidsof who never heard of john hope franklin my earliest memory was thehe mccarthy hearings but i did not know what they were i just heard my father and grandfather crying. and wendy armstrong called out - - and when louis armstrong called out. and as time went on now i'm

old and still hearing the same battles like bringing his head against the wailing wall and said i'm praying for peace in the middle east in for people to get along and there were 17 different religions and he said how do you feel and i feel like i'm beating my head against the wall now 60 years later and i'm thinking nothing has really changed. so the devil finds work which takes them back to the

thirties and then we still judge people by their looks and we still have this other thing going. host: we will leave that there to see if professor anderson has anything to add. >> part of oppression about voter suppression and then to make you think there is no hope that it has been this. and the thing is the reason why we are still in the struggle we are still fighting and oppressive force and we refuse to give up and with our

subjugation and that is so important we refuse to cede our power because it is in the fight and struggle we continue to forward to create the knowledge and protect our communities. when we don't struggle and think it is messed up then all protections are dissolved. that's why we fight and have to know what the game is. >> are you familiar with the work of professor john locke teaching at yale in his book more guns less crime. >> i am vaguely familiar with

john locke who is one of the heroes one of the second amendment schools of individual rights of guns everywhere and to be gun safety regulation as i mentioned earlier iee have not been pro-gun or anti- gun but i have been for reasonable gun safety laws such as there is no reason to have semi automatic weapons in the hands of civilians on city streets. that doesn't make any sense. host: david from tennessee by text i agree what is your critique of the racist and violent society but we have aat

parasitic layer of well compensated commentators and helpers many ensconced as a critical foundation of the system who appeared to be neutralized by the dominant culture. >> i thought i knew where his head and then appeared in another way. what you are laying out is that there are scholars who feed on the ill of american society and who provide cover for that. and this is why having freedom within the university are so important because when you have evidence-based

scholarship you are allowing that evidence-based scholarship do the heavy lifting and you can discern the difference that evidence-based scholarship and the ideologue. host: what do you think about some reports that academia has been overtaken by the left? >> [laughter] host: i guess you don't agree? >> i think that is part of the smoke and mirrors that is out there that is designed to denigrate what's coming out of the colleges and universities in terms of the scholarship because if you can denigrate that the new can create a newev

truth that is not fact-based or evidence-based and that is happening a lot so i've got to say when you talk to black scholars in the academy they are not seeing this or the entrenchment of the power and working through that to do the work. >> so any research that has been done that and 86 years old and i'm in a wheelchair and worked as a vision therapist but i also ran a program 49 percent black have

a lot of things to say about the black community that is positive but i would love to see more research that can prove that laws can change people's lives. i don't think there has been done anything in comparison with race in the disabled that i can find i'm very interested in your opinion on that. host: we believe that the first question there is a lot there thank you for calling. >> the role of disability laws and policy are essential that

is one of the key movements forward that made the nation much more humane so to see the way that race works is also essential i have seen some of the work i cannot recall the names off the top of my head but do a library search on your local library to find the books that are there and if you have access to a university library to the j store so you can see the articles that having created and produced that will give you the kind of foundation that you need to see where your intervention is important. >>caller: i used to be a

librarian. and also the national library of medicine but in our basement we had literally hundreds of books that were accumulated over the years but my question that this is not

history? this is life. this is not history. this is a continuum. >> so the question is, we are consistently stunned by the lack of knowledge. how many people until they saw

watchmen did not even know also happened? starting up the silver rights movement i start off the class saying how many of you have heard rosa sat down and someone stood up and we all had a dream so then to rosa and martin to overcome than what we lose is the massive local organizing the meet the movement happened. we don't have the history we have the sense this should happen quickly and all you have to have as a leader. no. it takes a lot of folks a lot of hours and commitment. so how do we do this? so on the emory website a

brief five-minute history right have provided in the soundbites to be able to use that in their classroom as a foundation for greater discussion and knowledge there are some incredible websites the civil rights movement veterans that have the documents and the narratives to provide access to the knowledge facing history and facing ourselves so those entities have a much broader access to this history that helps us understand one person

novo and white rage so where we are now with what happened then so we can see faulkner the past is not over it's not even the past i'm blowing the line but something like that. the past is with us and still living. >> your books are essential to understand the history and after the backlash of the 1619 project do you know the organized effort by the academic community to preserve the undiluted us history? >> so what i see is through the american historical

association and i am seeing those organizations are really doing the work to ensure that the history is taught and preserved so to see that in the archives working overtime that the original documents and artifacts are still there. so emory we have the library that has the sclc papers the science, the street signs from resurrection city which was the poor people's campaign in 1958.

please see archives and historical organizations and associations doing the work. and when flooded with angry parents i put that in quotations because sometimes they don't even have children in the schools. and then to participate in the process. so teaching the device of history or make them feel comfortable is a push back that we must know the history and w we cannot be the nation that we can be if we keep telling lives about ourselves. host: we have about 15 minutes left with our guest carol anderson.

>> the show is excellent and i disagree with almost everything she says but that being said can she explain why the crime rate, especially murder in the black communities is so out of control? is that a white issue or totally a black issue? host: before wedo let you go why do you disagree? >> i'm on the right so some of the things that i hear i disagree with. host: do you consider yourself to be a racist in any way?

>>caller: i never have but that being said somebody can look me in the face and say that i was but i never have. >> the framing of the question i thought was quintessential why do we have all of this murder happening in the black community? remember earlier when i said 80 percent of african-americans are killed by african-americans and over 80 percent of whites are killed by whites so that we don't t get of the black crime is the narrative of black pathology that i laid out because blacks are inherently violent in criminal so therefore the white community

must have protection against the source of incredible instability and violence in american society. know what we don't get to are the issues of watching what happens when the schools are devalued and defunded and what happens when jobs go away and we have a massive discrimination d happening there is incredible research that shows if you have a racially identifiable name but the qualifications are the same as someone who does not so jackson has a resume equal qualifications will have to send in multiple resumes and

letters to get the interview as opposed to jennifer joe's on —- jones. so when we are looking at the biases in american society that limit access to jobs and housing, we have incredible studies of what that means in terms of discrimination and housing and healthcare and policing. when we are looking at all of this and black folks killing black folks and not whites who kill whites are the structural inequality that is there an american society then we are not asking for k a real answer the soundbite. host: what do you think of

frank saying i like everything you say but i disagree with everything you say? i think i saw you smile. >> i did because i have had that before. and i am great. come with the evidence and the facts and the historical documentation and the valid research studies but this is the undermining because what it does is undermines the rigors of the research and the analysis of how i feel on par with that and to become part of policy instead of the rigors of the work.

host: tallahassee florida go ahead. >>caller: thank you doctor anderson for your work in my question has to do with whether or not she can anderson a hate to use the word how other populations in this country to perpetuate biases against the black race if there's any comments you could make if you have a book that addresses how we can use the capitalistic ideas in this country that would better our

position in this country. >> dealing with two different books how the irish became white when the irish immigrants were here they were treated horrifically. bottom of the barrel or close. what he documents is what they began to learn in american society is anti- blackness. so talk about the piling on this is a what you layout i'm sorry i cannot remember the author's name right now but dealing with how japanese americans and chinese-americans became the model minority and that happened in the sixties so

with the civil rights movement happening saying america must become america you have a backlash the puts of asian americans as the model minority as opposed to these black folks. how do we go from the chinese exclusion act and the internment of the japanese in the forties? how do we go from that in the banning of all asian immigration national origin act how do we go from that kind of policy from the 1960s? and what she laid out was asian americans went from

being not white to being not black in the 1960s when you have the civil rights movement and the black power movement so that linguistic turn that they believe in family that they believe in education and in hard work so you want those tropes that attach to the model minority. so one of the things we are seeing so what you are seeing someone a human rights frame

we're all in this together. work together we see this with the coalition down in florida dealing with tomato growers. you can see with their are african-americans and latinos and asian americans and whites all working together to improve the quality of life in the working conditions of the tomato fields in florida they say no and not become so essential when i go back to reverend barber to the movement he is creating multiracial multiethnic and multi- religious because that

is where the power lies. n.>>caller: good afternoon. i have a question and a concern i am studying from the early 19 hundreds from the 1970s so in your book i thought the naacp had dropped the ball but when you explain the work they have done for people of color gave me another perspective that currently in my opinion they dropped the ball to affect

real change for people of color in america. host: we will leave it there but i do want to ask you is your research personal or professional? >> it is personal right now i wish i had a teacher like her at morgan state at the time when i went. >> it's too vague for me to be specific because i focused on the 19 forties and taking it through the 1960s so the focus of my work really looked at the naacp the civil rights congress a national negro conference that's that i was

following through in my work the american committee on africa so just see those organizations and how they were deployed, their strength and how they were succumbing was essential for me to lay out how the struggle for decolonization works. host: six books down is there another in the works? >> there is one in my head. >> so what i am thinking about is a book i entitle the ties that bind in silence african-american response to political violence with my initial research one of the things that i found is that

what i am intrigued by is organizations that say they are there for the people to protect the people but then they don't one of the forces that create that and what are the forces that create that so what i saw in haiti and in congo five liberal organizations, black liberal organizations i am notre seeing them engage with the violence raining down on haiti and congo. why? they had been so involved to r provide resources to the nation fighting for the nation e and arguing the state department and the white house why when the black folks are

getting slaughtered. host: where do you get that idea? >> it was me being stunned at the silence because at the same time when haiti is erecting and violence i am seeing very little but in south africa it is happening in these groups are all over south africa so they get the production of the black folks and how they have the blood he pulpit to fight so why not here and then why not get engaged in the civil war in a jury a? so what was it that changed to cause the level of engagement.

host: the last two hours our guestro has been author carol anderson. and have voter suppression is destroying democracy in the most recent book racing guns in a fatally unequal america thank you for your time.