it also was the reason why i wrote, started writing -- >> we will break away here and take your life to the senate part of our commitment for more than 40 years to bring you live coverage of congress. we will return to booktv following what is expected to be a short pro forma session here on c-span2. communication to the senate. the clerk: washington, d.c., november 3, 2022, to the senate: under the provisions of rule 1, paragraph 3, of the standing rules of the senate, i hereby appoint the honorable benjamin cardin, a senator from the state of maryland, to perform the duties of the chair. signed: patrick j. leahy, president pro tempore. the presiding officer: under the previous order, the previous order, the >> the u.s. senate holding this brief sessions between now and the november midterm elections. no votes are plant into a

monday, november 14. as always you can find the senate live here on c-span2. and now we take you back to our booktv programming. >> likely for me they didn't because, you know, i thought every day was going to be like, get the scoop. >> okay. so ass i was reading the book i had a running dialogue with myself like, , well, which are e worst, you know? i kept going back and forth. clearly there are a kind of varying degrees of guilt but i'm wondering if you had a thought about which one you thought was the worst? ng about the patriarcs or the like the entire family's or yeah both. yeah. i mean in terms of patriarchs, i

think that i can't really distinguish. i think there are they were all equally. mm-hmm awful in a sense, but i do think that those families today that control the families like the quans or the bmw sit or the siblings that control bmw today. the concept is a control vmw today as well as the the porsche beer clan and a portion more to an extent that control porsche but not only porsche but also folks wagon audi bentley etc. and that have these outward facing foundations and corporate headquarters and even media prices named after these men without being transparent. i think they are the most blatant in in the cover-up of the history. mm-hmm. and i think also because they control such global brands and and have such global outward facing companies. they also have a bigger responsibility to be transparent about history. they might so a question from the audience.

um, could you say a little bit about what conditions were like in some of the factories that -- had to work as slave laborers in this very much different. i mean and there were also there were also i mean for the most part. jewish or slave labor done by by -- who were kept in concentration camps for their you know for their for purp who were not sent to extermination cancer, right? because that's that's the distinguished we're talking about here at this point, you know, they were kept in second sub concentration camps where they were that we deported from concentration camps to the factory complexes at folks of argan or at a good quant and herbert wants battery factories and you know, they were kept in the most.

of you know, there were i know at quans half a factory outside of hanover. there was a gallows, you know, there were abusive couples who beat prisoners sometimes to death and i mean it ranged i mean there were the on on the lowest bottom of the rung were the jewish slave neighbors and followed by by mainly slavic force and slave laborers millions were already boarded from poland, ukraine, russia and and beloveus and other eastern european countries, and you know western europeans for the most part were comparatively treated much better. i mean, yeah, which yeah wasn't even you know, that's very bad. but yeah, yes, so okay another

question. um, can you give examples of big german firms or individuals that refused to collaborate with the nazi routine regime so did did you know i imagine some refused maybe to actively profit from arianization, but can you give exam any positive examples here you have you have you there's the example of global bush was industrial very well known industrialism is the company they left be in bosch, which is owned by foundation not owned by family anymore. the company left behind you know is still one of one of the world so he's a massive industrial apartment as a massive electro technical conglomerate today. and he was a very progressive industrialist really to care of the labor conditions for his for his employees already going back to the to the kaiser guy and

obama republic. and he was very much anti-hitler. and he but even he even he and he support through his right hand man founded the resistance to the extent. he could i mean he died in 1942 to robin bush did and he you know, but even he mass-produced weapons for the third rack and used for used and forced labor was used in his in his company in his company, so and he would say he's one of the you know, positive examples, i mean you know, that's the most positive example i can give across the board forced and to less extent slave labor was used. by by german business, no and arianization's you know ionizations occurred. you know, this was a business decision, right? it was a cabinet so it occurred only if they made sense.

you these businessmen didn't make arunization acquisition if it didn't make sense for their business expansion. so these were all these were all business deliberations that they made. does this acid make sense? can we get it for the right price because we're called calculating decisions, you know, so so for instance congrat mass conglomerates who didn't do any organizations, it doesn't mean that you know that that says something about that. they were any better than than good. you're quantity flick who did it was just that it didn't make sense. such acquisitions didn't make sense in your overall. i mean, you know m&a in there in their you know. okay, i'm feeling a little bit better about my dishwasher but a little bit worse about my coffee maker now so so question about what the allies did to push for

punishment of these, you know firms or wealthy germans after the war was there any effort of the occupying allied, you know in as part of the d notification process? i mean it starts with initially it starts with the morgantop land robert morgant of junior was a treasury secretary proposes the morgan top plan which basically called for the entire dismantling of germans industry and the summarily execution not just a political and and miser leaders, but also a business leaders that plan is scrapped and instead you have this plan. that is mainly drawn up by john jay mccoy and of stinson in the in the war department who you know also. you know if you can talk about the and i said semitism of of german big business, but of

course it was right and in the american state department and and board department, too and they come up with this plan which envisions the nuremberg trials. overseas the occupation and the and the dividing of an occupied germany between the united states and the united kingdom. and also to oversees the as they called it, which is part of the four d's. the notification was one of them but so was de cardinalization and deconstration of german industry which in the end does not really it doesn't really happen to learn that. you know, it's only he gave farm and it's a very prominent example of at the time the largest. a chemicals and pharmaceuticals come conglomerate in the world is split up in what is today basf and buyers still to a large companies in the world and in

pharmaceuticals and chemicals respectively. but for the most part, of course the cold war emerges and and you know initially harry truman and then like i was an hour, but particularly truman makes the policy decision that we that that united states government needs a viable democratic or economically viable and democratic west germany as a board against an encroaching soviet union and all the aspirations and ambitions that they had for the reform of german society and and andy that's a vacation a little quickly goes out to window and their aimed the overarching aim becomes the buildup of of west german and society as a democratic and a capitalist state. yeah. and yeah, so, um, some people are asking, you know, you really focus on kind of heavy industry. i would say in in the book, but you know, you clearly could have

talked about, you know, some people with someone raised the question of like the entertainment business, um, you know, and i and that there were kind of similar stories going on in all different aspects of you know, all different areas of the german economy. good. is that true? would you say or well this i mean i picked a big the families a bigger business families of those that are still most relevant today in european in german european and go business. so that it could have you know, i think in a sense. businesses that i chose and i think that's why you're also emblematic or so exemplary of the larger wider business community and their thoughts is because they they do range. i mean sure gundry flick big industry. but one would say, you know, portia bf car car and then then of course.

the front fingers in is in is in finance, and he occurs are in consumer goods at that time. yeah, right. so it does it does give the two main characters are indeed in having industry. but i wanted to focus on those families that are relevant today. so what regardless of what industries they were in at the time of the nazi era. yeah, and you know the your opening kind of scene where these these rich germans are summoned to a meeting with hitler is incredibly chilling where like you want, you know, there's a lot. you know, how are they gonna react and they, you know are more than willing to help finance. yes. so here a bunch of people have you know, put forward a really interesting question that i had to which is you know, you end the book on a maybe hopeful note saying, you know, we will do better right but i a lot of people are asking what that would look like. so what do you hope your book

accomplishes? what what kind of reckoning you hoping for? oh at the bare minimum is is this and that's also the idea i went into i mean the book is an argument in favor of historical transparency, and i think minimum these families should be with the massive consumer brands that they control should be outwardly transparent about the the histories. of the advantage patriarchs that they call their foundations and global headquarters and brands and and media prices after i mean, i think it is a bare minim that we can expect and if they don't want to do that then you know, i think they should they should they should rename they should they should rename, you know, that is what a reckoning that is. what an honest and transparent reckoning. looks like to me. because i also think you know one learns from history by showing the good. and to bed and if you just celebrate somebody's business success, but leave out their war

crimes, especially today when we live in an age of such, you know disinformation all across the board, you know, you these families particularly have a responsibility not only to the consumers but also to history, you know because bearing about it and you know, you cite i forget which one it was but like the young woman now who just recently gave a speech that where she's yes, please. yeah, it's not even like they're trying to hide it anymore and she's almost like, you know, like the past. what does it matter? i'm rich. yeah. yeah, so, you know what i traveling which is very troubling indication or germany's had it. yeah, you spoke after golf, but you know, i mean kind of late and lack of any historical knowledge. yeah and and kind of any sense of morality that we're gonna bows and displayed not only during that speech but all particularly in the follow-up comments that she gave build to build the journey to food company like they have a

thousand thousands very famous. yeah, but don't some shaming and kind of boycotting it seemed like after her speech. so there's sure and i said, i i end the book all the way in the back in the notes of sources where she gives us interview in september 2021 to the zoo delighted side to about how you know, she forced now forces her family to talk about it and therefore she's forcing him to be more transparent about it, but it's still difficult. yeah. i mean i do i am i mean you get back to the previous question. you know, i am hopeful about my generation even though some show, you know. a bladen lack of knowledge about about that period but you know, particularly those german and particularly those who are end up being the heirs. yeah, because i do think in the four and a half years that i lived in germany, and i i know that any in the in the up at 2, and yes, i do in new york times is that i everybody is is

extremely aware and and is extremely reflective. and is is trying to to make a better german, you know, and of course with its political and economic might you know. is extremely important? yeah, i mean one of the kind of fascinating things is you describe that many of these families have hired historians to uncover the truth about their past, but somehow these histories wind up almost seeming like part of the cover-up and in some ways in their kind of and eventually in some cases on in most cases completely unintentionally and some you know intense. yeah. i mean you said they're actually kind of good historians often, but then the book comes out and they think they've done everything they need to do and then nobody, you know stories and their research. i mean, it's also insulting to these stories and our researchers work on these projects for three four years, and then you studies come out