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>> james up even your book rethinking journalism printed the 21st century, you write that there isn't indecently close personal and professional relationship between reporters and the people they are supposed to write about is that about think. >> yes because there's always been attention in journalism between what, this book of access economy is always attention, because some people to get close to the sources and sometimes you need to aggressively investigate your sources near to strike the balance vertically but these days in journalism, it isda bece too out of balance people become well they delivered on a platter the sources in the government want and with a brother people to see. >> asking for delivery people thrather than being adversarial and skeptical. >> and you don't be to

beadversarial, because i can engender biases of their nobody ever strike a balance there'ss a balance in the nationall securiy for the new york times asked and asked app servicemen for the people in the ministration. >> on ask about the subtitlet f the book we think he journalism for the 21st century how does affect with being a muckraker. >> journalism in the early 20th century nothing in the mid- 20th century best gave reporting was we the chicago sun-times doing these investigations are opposing his bartenders and you had was famously sinclair with the durable, which he had an ideology that he was a valid socialist agenda but there was a willingness to gotta go there and really speak aggressively towards the powers of a and sinclair was - by journalists in

new york for what he get you to see that anymore and cable is people just sort of, that there are finding talk about what they think the journalist really break big stories and most of the stories are broken and people like me and for example the washington post won the pulitzer prize award for invest getting enough corruption and the government and you need to have the spirit of investigation and reporting and citizens they did do it any kind of a renaissance and you go back to what was done decades ago which now does not have any marvelously do to what i talked about in the book which is economics and consolidation of media. a commercial and which a lot of news organizations have/their budgets abc news recently/their investigated bureau. this become a commercial enterprise come another journalism under that is why

were so entropic nonprofit organizations we don't have advertisers nobody tells u us wt to do. >> so what is the goal. >> are subject to pick us and resources find us in the same event any journalist find sources like the way that ed snowden found glenn greenwald come i don't think the growing green will lose what find it conducting the same for the contractor found him and much of the case the whistleblowers defined as, for example is your fbi agent found me the fbi rated by home fbi agent came to us with internal restrictive documents from within the fbi systems and where they were calling us news media and is a very big deal because the case hinges on whether we are using the since of the people tend to find the journalism that they can trust in these days, most sources don't really trust any journalist and almost people do not trust media but we don't

really pick our subjects about subjects find us. >> how many times have you been sued. >> were jailed or indicted are sitting in the exhibit all my attorneys are setting about 5 feet away from me and i know that they are probably laughing and i don't know exactly how few, couple of dozen pieces of litigation over the last ten years we really never lost a case going to lose because were in the right andsee don't give up so if you are in the right and you don't ever settle, you usually quinn in a court of law in some cases we have to appeal most recently we ended up going on the offense against the new york times for defamation we have passed the motion to dismiss that case when into discovering the beginning of my - they would sue me had there was the opportunity to settle the case eventually it um selling any of his case but we found out in the discovery process the defamation lawsuit,

i been super different things he had the people who certainly never wanted to be deposed themselves i never wanted to the discovery of their own operations because both fairly ethical we don't break laws we don't do anything improper there, people over usually not as of the go found it will fight to him i will have to be deposed and they stop suing me see them. >> is it okay to deceive a subject when you are investigating. >> well there's a chapter look in your question administering one because the question of relative conception because either you deceive your subject horn are investigating to tell the truth to your audience or you don't deceive your subject and intelligence to your audience in other words, if you just take what your subject is saying you will be disseminating

perhaps this to millions of people and so there is an emphasis name lewis hodges argues in a thesis paper the other moral imperative to deceive your subjects if your mission is to tell the truth of the audience and also resent about the book of journalist murder which is famous but in the 1990s, janet malcolm, legendarytt journalist wrote tht aa journalist always deceives their subjects must the confiscated you must play if your intention is to do investigative reporting intentiono is to read off teleprompters and delivering to play us .doc refer until the public with the two star general want you to know, weldon worst deception and he must choose between these two types of deception but it is paramount that you tell the truth to your audience and that is what a journalist is supposed to do. >> energy is started his business. >> book storms, how was in reverse university of state noon

university of new jersey there's a lot of censorship on-campus mr. lucky charms thinning of syria be an irish american, to prove a point i said the serial was races isky my irish heritage but i thought it would be locked up with the dean quantities took me very seriously now meeting informing they would be on lucky charms serial because it was races is been also the beginning of the sort ofai undercover investigative work is really show these people for whoe they were. and cut them on video so sort of an artistic mission more than a political one. >> whenever the mean cemented and made a read about projects, there's usually the line and selected and edited video project •-ellipsis.

>> well, that is a hyperbole and all journalism is edited and rightfully so the main the words are arranged into sentences and so is an absurd insinuation because they can never actually named the edit, is just that it isis edited to release the full raw tape they will say that we don't know that you get to the recording device often before you while we are kind of engage in conspiracy theories any court when we actually litigatema the stuff, it allit falls apart and multiple articles three federal judges and that nothing was nedited out of context he might wonder why that is not covered more wealth, our attorneys attempted to go to wikipedia wikipedia to get the put on their and wikipedia said something to the p effect of wht legal documents are not reliable sources.eg so they say these things that we edit but they can never name and then the only case where they may have a point, was in 2009,

when i went into these acorn offices wearing a pimp coding i do not with a pimp coat it to all of the offices certainly presented myself as a private is that i wanted to you know, treat these brothels undercover and so they say, the protocol does not require wearing a costume, to be of help in this holy, on me, the didn't wear a pimp costume 12 years ago, michelle journalist make mistakes i think are track record is unbelievable compared to the track record of the mistakes mademi admitted by liks of the washington post cnn in the new york times tokyo, has never>> been a moment in your career you said, i just cannot do this again. this is really hard. >> yes. >> is really integral. >> the first chapter of you might lead up, first chapter of this book, megan riker, which is journalism textbook, it is about

suffering anyway say, how would you write a chapter in journalism book about such a thing like that but because i think that there is a lot of trauma that occurred in my life and the lives of the people that work for me and whether you being a whistleblower and violating a nondisclosure agreement and fired from your job. i was arrested in 2010, by the fbi financially exonerated from of the accused me of were rated by the fbi insi a member's were federal agents taking journalist work product rifling through anonymous sources in order tofl find out you committed a crime these are traumatizing things that she cannot asian about what it means to be journalist and what it means to be an american and you live through that he falsely accused in acute accused in the most powerful people pharmaceutical companies federal government coming after you and

i don't know if i can do this anymore, and talk about that in book but then you begin to realize there's a lot of people out there who believe in you i have is h you, really and is the anybody else they begin to realize there is more of us mentor them and this is the people to believe in truth and transparency i believe in darkness and corruption. many of these whistleblowers that come to you is in the book of the hunter becomes the hunted and so there are more afraid of us than we are of them and people with the fbi agents if people like to google the whistleblower and cnn whistleblowers all these people most recently, were interviewing an individual the government to sake whether child trafficking and trying to collaborate that in the passion that you have forgetting the story, that exceeds whatever pain that's inflicted upon you tonight because of some of the topics that you are addressing, that

you aree ignored or edited ridiculed the mainstream idiot. >> i don't know if it is so much politics as it is power, and there is it was written about which i referred to in the market mcgregor, manufacturing consent, 1987, there is a symbiotic relationship between people in power in the media. due to kind of reciprocity of interest and forpr example cnn, weathering advertisers is pfizer from citgo the commercial like you actually hear it, become a cliché but you by pfizer, do you by pfizer and citi card to go for granted in theor commercial but if you ares literally paid y a billion-dollar corporation, can you investigate the corporation, of course not as wi take this printed growing up in america, we grow up seeing media operate the way it does these are not right wing arguments.

in doing greenwald is the right winger these are just honest things about thene state of our media and in the 1970s and 80s, the journalist newsmen were willing to sacrifice profits on the balance sheets to veloso leader on the balance sheet to go do that investigative reporting and no more, now it all about the money and it is all about preserving the relationship that you have with the powers be and that is not journalism under any accepted understanding of what acjournalism is. >> in american mcgregor, he said a bit of better times for tight muscle his books and what is that. >> i think this all had smart things to say. from chicago, here the called rules and radicals and he talked about make them live up to their own principles and he said, it is a must import a do is to use their own rules make them live up to them so i think if that's

in the wave closing hypocrisy and i that he also talked about the idea of picking a subject and really focusing on it as opposed to lofty brought narratives and i think that this would be applied to what i do and for example i thinkcu focusg and doggedly like voter fraud is a very hot button issue is a people say there's no voter ofraud and some people believe the whole election was stolen i don't take a position but i think for instances of fraud and for example minnesota where one was arrested by the attorney general texas them after wee covered tape writing about all of the crime that she was committee think that ethnology which is to focus on the actual facts, not on what most people media do in the book, we use the technique ofe referring to yourself as so already in the third personrs why. >> because i wanted this book to be more of a this is my life's

work, this book to me five years to write and it has 800 footnotes ended in fact, reads like a thesis paper for i wanted to out list me an adult wanted to be about me but about the principles in my first breakthrough book is bait basically went 20s and 32 year olds old now my incarceration, going to court is a very first person narrative in this book is more of a handbook and i would say the vote under boy scout manual for people who want to follow in the steps and all of the people to follow the footsteps is the whistleblower because of the chapter the called whistleblower in the quote them and i say things like well it is like you're being on the margins of society, like you are spacewalking astronaut whose umbilical cord has been cut from therd mothership enema people to understand what it is like it i think the most important chapter chapter of the first

because i think the psychological effects, are unbelievable number one question that i get assess aren't you worried are afraid and i say no, i'm trying to worry about the things that i cannot control and i think that the fear is the thing that holds most people back in this country. i think we are read remarkably is helped them because the sources now trust us and say you must be for real that was so sure about you guys but you must certainly be for real defense r rating you we've actually had number of sources come to us asy a result of with offensive. >> were you race and we ran. >> i am from new jersey the northeastern part of the state) my mother is from rochester,is w york my dad is from buffalo, new york and they moved it into new jersey by the time i was born ae suburbs in new york about 45 minutes with new york city

waiver headquarters there and a few dozen journalists roaming the country undercover. >> closure life like from zero - 18. >> all right about that my first book, breakthrough my father mya grandfather worked construction and property maintenance and help them up until teenagers and write about some of that story and story of resilience ofto a life i did not really ever think that was going to be a journalist but i did enjoy to watch the news in new york "fox5" and i question is had a definitely went to the new york times every day come 18 years old in 19 years old and a rather usa today and i just read newspapers every day for a year or two i found mike wallace once said this, and he said it best, found things are not as it seemed and rarely as they should

be. i did not to know know what to do this in the middle what it meant to me, was i going to be an actor or work in finance or was i going to work with my dad and you know mowing lawns but he quickly wanted to do something about that he thinks just were not portrayed accurately and so as a student, become colonists paper and recalled the target which was the daily newspaper records university and it was let go from that job because ruth home about how much money professors give to each political party and ratio in the present republicans was 101 and let me go as i said what i do now so i thought why don't i create my own newspaper so i did that i had no idea what it's doing most of the work was layout and design i do natalie up in newspaper and magazine and i did that and i do staff is

called the centurion the rest is sthistory. >> in a few minutes remaining, who want to ask you about two people you brought up, in my notes, listed a lot of muckrakers that you talk about new product daniel ellsberg and mike wallace and are they heroes heto you. are they respected people in field. >> i think that some of>> t the things that they have done our heroic i think mike wallace was an unbelievable questioner and he made people feel comfortable it is interviews and i admire that i think journalism is an activity, not just an identity or not just to protect the class of priesthood most people want the journalism to be an identity like a cartel so i can admire virtues from each of these different people i can admire virtues and that might lead your audience to say why is o'keefe appreciating them because their view joy virtues inherent in all

these people and one almost went to jail remember going to the supreme court, the washington post and you new york times litigated this to the supreme court. >> i think whistleblowing can be heroic or illegal that's noting, simultaneously be breaking the law but there is a place in the world for people like that and without people like that investigator journalists, cannot do their jobs as the bread a better what it means to be in america and that right to report 70 tells you is being fundamentally jeopardy right now with the fbi and they are to take upgh right away from us rit here and right now the aclu of the lawyers in my office last month telling me by the way there defending us in the aclu is writing to the judge to instill awards that are against me i said this is never happened

before in american history what is happening to you has never happened before too many journalists starting to point guns at us and take our books that has has never happened before so i do admire people like that's noting and i admire others and mike wallace and i don't know what happens why billion-dollar corporations are not doing the job and it's less scrappy broke entrepreneurial enterprising people but so be it. >> james o'keefe, the author of this book, american mark rinker, rethinking chosen for the 21st century, we appreciate your time and poughkeepsie. >> thank you. >> if you're enjoying book tv inside of her newsletter using the qr code on the screen, to receive the schedule of upcoming programs offer discussions on book festivals and more, book tv

every sunday on "c-span2", or any time alignable tv . org serious readers. >> high school students, here is your time to showing him you're invited to participate in this year's cspan student him competition and picture yourself as a newly elected member of congress, we asked us this year's competitors, what is your top priority and why i make five - six minute video shows the importance of your issue from opposing and supporting perspectives and don't be afraid to take risks the documentary, be bold, $100,000 in cash prizes, is a 5000-dollar grand prize, videos must be submitted by the 20th, 2023 and visitor website at studentcam.org for competition rules, tips and resources and step-by-step guide.

>> weekends on "c-span2" are an intellectual feast, every saturday in history tv, documents america story and sundays, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors, fighting for "c-span2", is from these television companies and more, including mexico. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ >> medico along with these television companies, supports cpn to the public service, seized into. >> representative heard it's good to see was back it is great to see them please only well. >> okay were talking about your book american recruits, angelaa started to getting big things done but enjoy this book.