>> texas play add rather

outsized role in the national political world, hasn't it? >> absolutely. texas, where texas goes, america goes in many respects and that's never been more true than today and texas has always sort of led the way for america in so many respects and we've had three presidents here in the last 60 years and ghw bush and outsize the presence in american life and texans wouldn't have it any other way. working for that in the capacity and and more in austin. lbj president and more in 2017 and now the president of the lbj foundation and written several

books about lbj including one that we'll talk about today indom mittable will of the presidency and one reason i wanted to be the director of the lbj library now 13 years ago was the fact that lbj is a -- is one of the most consequential presidents in so many respects and i think he is known for vietnam predominantly but there's so much more to his legacy and while vietnam is part of the legacies and if it's not important andgr more so. very importantly striving on civil rights throughout the course and the presidency and meeting ther most important idel that all men are created equal and egalitarianism for americans

and he hasn't been recognized for those accomplish wants and i very -- accomplishments and i wanted to come to the library to illuminate americans on what lbj means to america, particularly in the 21st century and how the things he did during the course of his presidency continued to resound in america. >> mark up and why did you move from the library to the foundation and what is the difference? >> yeah, the library as most presidential libraries are is run under the offices of national archives and that is the public side of the public private partnerships that are-p presidential libraries so when i was the director of the lbj library, i was a employee of the national archives and now on the private side of that equation on the presidency of the lbj foundation so we help the national archives rub that institution and put money and resources into the library with

money of the american people. >> one of the things that the johnson family did was release all the audio tapes from the oval office. what wasth the reason for doing that. that was a pretty big gift to the american people the inaugural director and lbj in the white house found out about the entuss tense of the tapes and secret telephone tapes that lbj made during the course of the presidency after president johnson died and they were given to him by a secretary who was charged with holding them in her custody until the president died. president askedod there be a sel on the tapes for 50 years, which would mean that we would be opening them next year if he had gotten his wish and harry middleton realized the importance historically of these

tapes in documenting the presidencyf of lyndon b. johnson and had been given a glimpse into the presidency and and took these to labor johnson who is alive at the time and said we think these are important, we think they should be processed and made available to the american people and lindy johnson unflinchingly without listening to a word of their tapes and reflecting on her husband to start processing these tapes and rolling them out to the american people and now as you know and so many historians and members of the american public know, these are the crowned jewels of the lbj presidential library archive. >> we'll listen to one, this is lady bird talking to president johnson. here's one of the audio tapes.

>> mrs. johnson is calling and [inaudible]. there was a considerable pick up

in drama and interest when it began a ewe drew out every bit of it and i did not hear your questioners clearly or the role. >> mark, what were we listening to there? >> lady bird johnson u giving hr husband a critique on what was his second press conference and she was -- as you can hear very candy in your assessment how he didd and little breathless and someea shots better than others and ultimately she give them a b+ and >> and president johnson

giving what was famously or infamously known as the johnson treatment and applying the very unique brand of persuasion and hear some of the conversations that lbj had with lady bird and coming into the library eight years ago and going into the white house and the president obama was listening to lbj applying the johnson treatment on one of the hand sets and michelle obama, mrs. obama was listening to lady bird talking to johnson on the other hand set and she was listening to this conversation and said oh, barack has to hear this. shet walked across the tenth floor and got him off his phone and brought him to her phone and

listened to that conversation and put the hand set down and things never change. he can very much relate to the wife of president giving unvarnished critique on his performance and appreciated it very much. >> we'll look at your book, indom mittable -- indomitable will. i didn't understand and harry middleton with the staff assistance and too many nuances in t him and warren rogers who worked for hersh newspapers and said he was the most overwhelming human being i've ever met in my life. hugh who i believe was a friend of yours at one time and he's passed and was with time for so many years and larger and more

important than ever and he was in charge for every second that was according to marian means and the lyndon johnson i worked with was brave and brutal, intelligent and incredit card and will inureuatingge insensite with a shrewd and uncanny instinct for the juggernaut of his adversaries. >> he was a jumble of contradictions and he was bill moyers that might be quoted in there and every adjective in the dictionary at one time and he was extraordinarily me cure y'all and unpredictable and everyone saw a different side of him and treated everybody differently and humphry called him a psychologist and read people effectively and get them to rally around his will. hence the title of the book,

indomitable will and meant hoe treated people vastly differently and one person to another. an incredibly complex man and incredibly informidable presence and a great president. >> what would you grade him? >> i would go to cspan as you know and peter does this marvelous poll among historians and i believe 140 some were polled back in 2021, last year and lyndon was in the top quarter of all presidents and not in the pan thee indian of other presidents. that was in the latter part of the near great category.

>> ryan higgins and -- ronald reagan and all them had a mixed legacy and clearly shined on the darker sideis of lyndon johnson and looking at laws of great society and they're absolutely tremendous. >> the overwhelming definition and civil rights and voting rights et cetera. >> i remember the tide on vietnam turned around 1967 and the american people started doubting our presence and in the quarter of 1968 really turned things irrevocably and the series of battles throughout vietnam and u.s. military won resoundingly and we fail to remember at this point.

the american people realize no matter what we did and the opposition will keeppp on coming and they were absolutely relentless and at that point, i think lyndon johnson reassessed his presidency and naming a speech where he told the american people he'd neither seek the nomination of his party nor run if it were rented to him bay the party and that was done for two reasons and he worried thatbe i'm a weak heart and neay fatal heart attack in 1955 and whether he was going to live to face another term if he were to have another term in the white house. he worry that had he would put the american peopleho through a health crisis as wood row wilson did during part of his presidencydr and franklin roosevelt did dying in his fourth term in office.

and get the term to find a peaceful resolution and ultimately eluded him and i think he knew in his heart of heart that it wouldn't be extraordinarily divisive in america and seeing america at a time when we needed to be united. >> you quote president johnson as saying the president only has one year to get things accomplished. >> it's true, you can see it. so lyndon johnson is elected to presidency in his own right in 1964 with a mandate of 61% of the popular vote. political capital regardless is a femoral and he says when a president is first elected, he's

a giraffe. six months later he's a worm. so while lyndon johnson was standing tall in the presidency, he got as many walls of the great society through as possible. that political capital would ultimately evaporate. resounding controversy around vietnam in the president. >> when he was senate majority leader and i might be misquoting you and might be the most powerful man in washington or the most powerful majority leader of all time. >> i would say he was the most powerful senate majority leader of the 20th century and an argument to be made for the most powerful leader of all time. there was a president in place, dwight eisenhower was a heavy presence during that period as well and there's no question and

ifsh washington is lyndon johnsn on the line and it was very harmonious and it's a great example for what bipartisanship can look like when we're more uniteded as we work together closely on a variety of initiatives and launch sputnik and the height of the cold war shouldul not dominate the heaves and the work of congress and the president putting it together and ultimately as you know we would go to the moon ahead of all other nations in what was a tremendous reflection of what the country can do working together. >> mark, before we move onto

other presidents and other presidential history, you spend a bit of time talking about president johnson's father, and his attitude, especially towards the ku klux klan. >> ix do. we're sitting in the shadow of the state capitol here where lyndon johnson's father was a legislator and i think lyndon johnson was schooled at his knee in many respects about what politics can do if one holds political office and got lyndon johnson intoxicated about the world of politics but you're absolutely right. the ku klux klan at that time in our history, the early part of last century was dominant in that part of the world and made threats against legislators that did not toe the line. lyndon johnson's father refused to do so at his peril and threatened his life and there were several nights where johnson's father and uncle in

case the ku klux klan came and they defied the ku klux klan refusing to yield to their racist and bigoted wishes and that was a lows son to lyndon b johnson in many respects and that's the civil rights and possible inspection of abraham lincoln doing more for the cuss of civil rights than lyndon johnson. at least his president. >> the pole role of lady bird in lyndon johnson's political career. >> she was indispensable asset and somebody to rely on completely and trust completely and she knew how he fought in many respects and knew his heart and his mind and i think in many ways lyndon johnson let his demons rome knowing they would be quietly warded off by lady

bird johnson that would summen the better ano-- summon the better angels and often saw the very worst in him and would expel all this vile and his greatest doubts about himself knowing that she would talk him off the ledge. but also she was incredibly astute and had decisive political mind p that she relied on and in so many ways she was his most trusted reliable and able in many respects adviser. >> why do you refer to george hw ndbush and george w bush as the last republicans? >> i don't know. the republican party has changed so dramatically since george hw bush and george w bush were in the white house and looked just at george w bush that was the governor of the bushn the mansion and to the right and state house to our left.

this is a different political party of george w bush striving to bolster democracy in the country and throughout the world and he was pro immigrant and he was in my ways not a nationalist and not xenophobic. it's a different republican party today and when the bushes talked to me on the record for the last republicans, i think theye expressed concern that donald trump would be not only the standard barer for the republican partyst but at the te a possible president and a possible successor to them in the white house. we had spoken before donald trump became president in 2016. dthe last interviews that i did with them for the book were in the latter part of 2016 and donald trump had yet to be elected president.t. >> what was the relationship

between the bushes? >> i think there were a lot of misconceptions as you know being in washington during that time and so many misconceptions about a relationship and there was the thought that george hw bush was schooling his son behind the scenes saying, son, you're not doing this or that right and telling him how he should behave in the role as president and in some ways undermining his presidency and then anyone who knows george herbert walker bush knows that was complete fallacy and i wanted to get it on the record what their relationship was, not only during the course of george w bush's presidency but during the courses of their lives and essentially at the end of the day, it's a love story. if you look at george hw bush's influence on his son in the white house, it was that of a father, not as one who had proceeded him in the white house. he knew the rigors of the

president. he knew the demands of the job. he wanted to be there as a comfort to his son and somebody who his son could come to and orelieve himself in the burdens of the office even for a moment and someone that knew the burdens he was carrying and george herbert walker bush's attitude was we had our turn in the white house and now it's your turn and my role is to support you as best i can and i'm here if you need me. if you don't need me, i'm going to stay out of your way. >> two very well known ladies with the bushes as well. barbara bush and laura bush, also incredibly strong and important first ladies also important counselors to their husbands, people that they could go to behind the scenes for important political advice and people that had their backs as

president. barbara bush certainly had her son back when he was in the white house and formidable first ladies in the matter that barbara was.so >> she was the enforcer for good reason and always knew where you stood with barbara bush. she was candid, she was frank and i have a really good read on folks too and she was a good read on people and their motivations and i think a very important asset to her husband as first lady. also as you know wildly popular and she was in so many ways america's mother and matriarch presence. >> created by laura bush and she lady of the state for six years before becoming

here and took this template and this book festival template and brought to our nation and there's a national book festival in washington dc every year because of laura bush. who was also by the way like barbara bush, a devoted reader readerand veracious reader and e knew the power of the book and books have a way of speaking to us in ways that other medians simply don't. >> mark updegrove, how did you get in this business? >> that's a fair question.ai i was on the business side of publishing, peter, and rose -- risen up through the ranks at times magazine on the business side and selling advertising space and i would go from the west coast to in other words to

devote myself to something that i thought would be more meaningful writingat a book on presidents after their leave office and the and i took an operations reader after a presidential history and i've never read a book about presidents after leaving office.

>> welcome so austin, texas and book tv's in-depth program and our guest is presidential historian and lyndon johnson foundation president and abc consultant mark updegrov and he recollects hear some of his books for the next two hours and presidential lives and legacies after the white house came out in 2006. baptism by fire, eight presidents that took office in times of crisis came out in '09 and indomitable will and lbj in the presidency and 2012 and last republicans and call in for

those of you in mountain and pacific time zones. we have a third phone line for text messaging only and text the message to (202)748-8903 and please include your first name and city if you would and we'll scroll through the social media sites that we contact with and remember at @booktv is where to keep up with us.

jfk, was he a lend or a myth? how real? >> >> he was cut down at the age of 46 before he finished his term in officeand he was the great might have been of history and look at vietnam and civil rights and some turbulence that we experienced in the 1960s and

say if jack kennedy was in the oval office, things would have been true. those are things that have had y legacy through -- since he was assassinated in 1963. >> the relationship they called each other names and people did or the harvards. >> the jfk and lbj and talk about that relationship and we can go broader and it's complex and jfk and lbj begrudgingly at timeshi admired each other and j would concede that while jack kennedy was a back bencher in the senate and all powerful majority leader he'd risen to new heights in the presidency and realized in my ways the

great -- in many ways the potential and lbj said jfk was a great publi hero and jfk would probably concede that lyndon johnson was somebody that knew power well and when he -- jack kennedy is a back bencher in the senate and needed to get something done, he d had to go through lyndon johnson to do so and selecting somebody to round out ticket in the 1960s who better thannd lyndon johnson not only to give ticket regional bounce that he desperately neededed to give gender trust ad support of weary democrats and lyndon johnson knew washington and he would be an effective successor to kennedy if something happened to him in august. that's whyhy you pick a vice president because of somebody that can do the job if you cannot continue to do so. there was respect between the two and might have looked at

each other and there was great responsibility between the camps and bobby kennedy and lyndon kjohnson had great an tip think for one another and mutual biographer and they despised one another and bobby kennedy had great influence on the kennedy white house and accolades in the white house and they downgraded him and lyndon johnson saw that andn i think disparaged them by calling them the harvard and suggesting they were ivy leaguers out of their death penalty in the white house. >>-- league in the white house. >> we're going to play one more lyndon johnson recording and this has a bit of reference to the candidates and it's one that yoll know. let's listen. >> yes, sir, our reporter and

nuers of people that signed to kennedy ord me and mine are not less and i want them less and i'm staying right i this house and who has charged the wte house police? >> 10-1 around here for what we need and get with him today and tell h if the hearings come in, i'm not going through with th kind of stuff anymore and if i can't ever go to the bathroom, i w'to. i won't go anywhere. i'll stay right behind these gates but i don'tee eight peoplele following me to church and one secret service driving and one in the car wh me and maybe two or threeehind me is all right but yesterday there was sixer seven ohem in there and by the columnist mnings and i turned out the lights and increased your security. >> that isn't so.

>> of course it's not so but i want t figures and these boys needno jock jobs and counter fitting. >> why was lbj so concerned about the number of secret service agents he had and how many jfk had? >> he didn't want the world to think we were afraid of something like that happening again. he had very famously marched mind the casket of john f kennedy at his funeral on november 25, 1963, against the wishes of his secret service and we're not going to be deterred by this violence and i am going to show up and pay my respects to the 35th president to do so much for my political career ask this country. i think he took that spirit into the presidency as well. he didn't want all these

distractions to hisis presidency and showing the american people he, s lyndon johnson, was afrai. >> we're goon start takingrt cas and back into the president and then hear from cornelius in alexandriament you're on book tv, go ahead. >> god bless book tv and i love all this stuff on cspan and everything. mark, my question for you, i had a lawyer here and his name was hrichard b. burns, and he workd with big jim garrison down in new orleanss and stuff. his son's still alive, de-meet rick burns and knew about the jfk assassinations and authors called him all the time and everything. i was just wondering two questions for you one if you heard of richard b. burns in

alexandria and there's a guy named abraham w. bolden and president kennedy and first african american secret service agent and he got echoes of deally plaza and setting up for president biden. >> i think we have the idea of what to talk about. let's hear from our guest mark updegrove. >> i don't know the person i've not heard of them and obviously the kennedy assassination is something that continues to loom large in the imaginations of the american people and we can certainly talk about that. i've never subscribed to the conspiracy theories and the alone gunman theories and the incredible evidence otherwise and some years back i was able to interview several times

gerald ford at that time the lone surviving member of the warren commission and he told me i've always subscribed to the lone gunman theory in the absence of a more incredible theory that can be back up and i've not closed the door on the notion that there could have been a greater conspiracy but nothing and no one come forward with evidence that would suggest that lee harry os walled not responsible for this -- oswald and he was a a neighbor that had taken russian lessons from lee harvey oswald's wife marina and he was ass close to them and as anyone was to the oswalds and saw someone that was very capable of committing the assassination of the president and somebody that a want that hd kind of fame or infamy as it has

become and who had actually attempted an assassination against the government official before in his life and the traits of psychopath of such that he would commit an act that horrendous. >> mark, if i'm getting my time line right, jfk and lbj scheduled to be here in austin that night and there was an event happening here, a fundraiser or something. >> that's exactly right and they were to go from dallas where president kennedy was obviously assassinated here to austin in the shadow where we're standing for a fundraiser at the capitol of a democratic fundraiser and speculation as to why john f kennedy made a trip and there were many that believe it was to mend fences with senator rale

and have yarborough and liberal democrat and lyndon johnson and moderate democrat and vice president at the time and in fact if they're coming to raise money andon money in the democratic war shaft for the coming election in 1964 and john conley thehe governor at the tie and ben barnes who was a rising star in the democratic party here in texas, assured president kennedy that if he were to come to texas, he could raise $1 million for the t democratic cause and that was a lot of money in 1968 -- in 1963, excuse maine i meant 1964. i convinced jack kennedy not to

only come to austin but houston, an san tone owe, fort worth and dallas and as you mentioned and he was supposed to come here to round out s the trip and all three. >> 59 years ago that assassination happened inrs dals and it was still a stain or a remembrance in texas and does it still affect texas politics? >> several events for the book in dallas and just a few months ago after the book was published and hearing from the call, it was very much top of mind when people thought of john f kennedy and thought of the assassination and i heard a lot about it in dallas and the texas book depository in the museum and paying tribute to john f kennedy and lee harvey oswald perpetrated the murder of john f

kennedy but it reamly is on the mind of folks in that part of the world in a way that i couldn't quite have imagined had i not gone up there to talk about john f kennedy and i had gone to other f places in the united states to talk about the book and it wasn't quite as prevalent as it was in dallas and it doesn't continue to be a stain but it's still very much part of the consciousness that in particularr nose imbalance -- those imbalance. >> you're on with historian mark up did he recollects grove. >> great to see you and hear your comments about them in austin. >> i live in virginia now and we always -- california now and we knew she was very well educated and think a little too close and struggles to try and get

education and tout for a woman of her age and not at that time but rare to seek the kind of education and really work hard tore be a smart woman and she became more and i appreciate yourst question and the place where you live. >>ly day bird johnson -- lady bird johnson was a great advocate and i mentioned that lyndon johnson is in my view and being the education president and the ward federal aid into education and the elementary and secondary higher education and put into law in 1965 and it was

the height of the great society and that fundamental landscape and they help to start and it continues to be an important part of american life for those underprivileged young americans who start every morning before going to school. lyndon johnson to note seeing this firsthand and it's a very formative chapter in his life when he taught school in texas close to the mexican border to a group of impoverished largely mexican american school children. this was between lyndon johnson's junior and senior years at what is now texas state university where he's trying to get enough money to finish out

his education. in order to do so, he thought these school kids and this small school, and he saw through their eyes what bigotry and hatred and poverty andat racial injustice looks like and that never left his consciousness and in fact when he was in the presidency and trying to get through a piece of legislation that he knew would benefit at this time and those people are in many cases of color and he would say remember those mexican american school kids. remember them as you're thinking about this legislation and transformation it can be in american life. you're absolutely right. lyndon and lady bird johnson were united in the cause of education and it made a huge difference in the number of people educated in the country andd in the quality of education atuc large. as you broke in the hill publication last year and president johnson doing his own

support of voting rights reforms with standing with voter throughout the solve and just as it had when he championed the civil rights act and asking what it's for. did jfk -- he believed -- kennedy believed that we had to hold the line on communist insurgency in vietnam and subscribed to the domino theory and if you allowed one nation to fall to come any of them in that region t would fall and those in

beijing would be beholdenned by that victory and trying to take countries of greater geopolitical significance and president kennedy believed as eisenhower did you had to hold the line on communism in vietnam or it would do adverse things to that region of the world. in terms of civil rights, kennedy moved very, very cautiously on civil rights through the bulk of his presidency and in 1963 when martin luther king brought civi, rights campaign to birmingham and went to jail and penned his famous letter from the birmingham jail, consciousness around civil rights was beginning to be raised. so finally kennedy made a speech of civil rights to a moral issue and had never been put in the terms before, but the american people hearing that civil rights was an incredibly important

victory for those on the civil rights movement but you can fault kennedy for not pushing more aggressively and the civil rights act that he had proposed in 1963 but failed to put into law by the time he was byassassinated. lyndonon johnson as you suggestd took that bill languishing in congress and used kennedy to martyr him through and his advisersard him not to do that and earn the presidency in your own right and they had the opportunity and that too could be a line and he gets them both through the civil rights act and againt it's a game changer for

our nation anding its promise and our most saving creed and the best thing for american life. >> it was pleased to be right in the middle of the texas book festival of the author and historians of marcus grove and these second acts including presidential lives and legacies and we'll get into that in just a few minutes. baptism byy fire, eight presidents and your calls as well put the numbers and call us

to chime in and third phone line for text messages only (202)748-8903. please include your first name and city if you would in sending those texts and our next call for mr. updegrove from michael in boston. we're listening. >> yes, good afternoon. thank you, cspan and teeter, one of my favorite book tv hosts and mr. updegrove, you're giving a very solid and convincing argument, but i have to say i respectfully disagree and let me tell you why. iec was born three weeks after john f kennedy was assassinated so i will be 59 years old in five weeks and lbj was my president. the way i look at that legacy is this, thaty is i can see the parallels via the end of the civil war and i'll explain how.

the congress created the 13th and 14th amendments and what they did with black people as well with the color truths but they added a clause about citizenship nowy being just bon on land. knowing that we're contiguous in south america. how do i compare that with lbj? the voting rights and civil rights act came about because of the work of u.s. black citizens at that time also added the clause these were going to apply to immigrants and aliens from other countries largely latin america -- >> michael, i apologize and i'm going to interrupt you here. what would you like mr. updegrove to respond to if you can phrase it shortly. >> i can phrase it shortly. i am going to say i view it as lbj as the start of hill pro and

his great society programs were the programs and it can be proven by current quality of life stats that show that the u.s. and senate black communities being systemically oppressed -- >> michael, we got the gist and we'll leave it there. >> michael, i appreciate your listening in and the wonderful thing about americans is we can have the perspective on americans and their legacy. in sor many ways the issue of race defiance who we are as a nation and shows us at our very best and at our very worst.

lyndon johnson had toed the line on segregation for a great deal of his career when he was in the house in the early years and -- in his early years as senator and he did so knowing he would not have been viable as a politician in this state in texas which was for all practical purposes apart of the deep south but when he became majority leader and was accruing power. a he would put laws in place to change the way we treated people of color and different creeds

and different religions and gender as well. >> michael is calling from florida. where in florida are you, michael, then go ahead with your question or comment. >> i'm in broward county, florida. and broward just hadid five of r school board members replaced by the governor and that's relevant here because i'm going to ask you to please come visit. i'm t historians of all things d that's part of the reason we got in trouble because i pointed out that as far as you were the county that fought the mask ban and it was basically grandparent genocide and grandparent genocide and using the kids with small pocket blanket and in fact as recently as three days ago he said he had trump and he was announcing that there was some serious issues there and it was admitted again and here's the

issue not so much that they did it and why don't we get along and historians come in -- >> we're going to leave the book tv program to fulfill or more than 40 year commitment of live coverage of congress. the senate will gavel in and lawmakers considering a federal deposit in court and congress facing a deadline to fund the government through next year to avert a shut down after the row cent short term extension and current money runs out this friday at midnight. senate lawmakers take up spending package first up the house and live coverage of the senate here on cspan2. ...