i'm lanesha debardelaben president and ceo of the northwest african-american museum. and on behalf of the museum i welcome you to our descendants

series an evening with the great, great great grandson of nat turner. we acknowledge that we are on the homelands of the spokane tribal people. we recognize the indigenous peoples who have been dispossessed and displaced from their ancestral and spiritual and the taking of their through colonization. we honor with gratitude the land itself, the waterways, the indigenous people and ancient heritage we are grateful for and our african and african american ancestors who survived lived the offer. the middle passage who endured the violence of slavery and the indignity of racial oppression, who had the courage to pack and head north and to the northwest, who blazed trails for us to be

here and to be ourselves here. as we begin this program, iam honoring the sacred life, legacy and lineage of nat turner. we call out the names of the ancestors who, share the same spirit of liberty as nat turner. those like harriet tubman, dred scott, william grimes, sally ammon northup, henry box brown, william wells brown, william and ellen craft. frederick douglass, henry bibb and those unnamed who stood up against the inhumane system of slavery. we remember them. we honor them. we are because those of them. nat turner. nat turner was hero, a freedom

fighter. he stood up to the violence of slavery for his for our humanity and said through his actions that by any means necessary he would be free. we are here to learn his story to pay tribute to his sacrifice and to honor his legacy with. his direct descendant, mr. bruce turner is with us tonight. this program is about reckoning with this past. it's about remembering. it's about never forgetting the pain the difficult decision, the trauma that nat turner and so many others endured. we owe our ancestor.

our attention. most all this program and history itself is about our healing. it is about the decisions we are making today to become free and to free others. it is about finding our way forward. rising above. every obstacle we face. life. on this exact. day 191 years ago. november 11/18 31 nat turner lost life for the cause of freedom and liberation on this day today we hope that you all are inspired by his steadfast committee meant to humanity, by

his resistance, oppression, and his faith. today's conversation will be moderated by kiantha duncan. the president of the spokane branch of the acp. she is a tireless champion for community, for crucial conversations and for change. thank you all for joining us, for tuning. and we thank mr. bruce turner for being here today. may we never stop remembering the one who believed in and pursued freedom with all of his might? nat turner, thank you and enjoy the program.

good afternoon, noon, everybody. good afternoon. to those of you who are here and those of you who are in the audience at home watching us as well. tonight is a very special. when i say special, i mean very special. i have had the last 24 hours to get to know mr.. and i think that you all will find very interesting. he lots to share with us lots of information. mr. bruce turner was born in southhampton county, virginia and he currently resides in virginia. virginia. his lineage to our great great nat turner was one in which he can share with us something that we would never because he gets to share what he knows from his family's perspective as well. so we're looking for it tonight. since the mid 1990s, mr. turner has researched the history of nat and the southampton slave insurrection of nine of 1881.

he received information on the nat league legend formed from grandparents. from his great grandparents from his aunts and from his uncles. we would like to play for you a very short video featuring mr. turner. bruce l turner the great, great grandson of nat turner. bruce turner story. a story of spirituality hope and the black struggle. freedom and justice in america during slavery. his great great grandfather, nat turner, was a leader, preacher and enslaved man who would lead a rebellion of enslaved people against their oppressors. in 1831. nat turner's rebellion of 1831 made a lasting impact in the to follow. abolitionists his rebellion exalted virtues of nat turner

as, a crusader against the evils of slavery. nat turner influenced fighters like frederick douglass and others. turner's legacy will to be remembered and, honored through his family that continues to share his story through oral history and documentation. his great great great grandson, bruce turner, spent most of his childhood living southampton county, whereby he received an abundance of information on the nat turner legend from grandparents, great grandparents, aunts and uncles. since the mid 1990s, bruce devoted serious research and invested into the history of nat turner and the southampton slave insurrection, 1831. nat turner continues to live on through the life and legacy of brewster as visionary liberator. legend legend. i want to thank you all here in spokane for allowing me come and talk with you today with about

nat turner. he was a man who. efforts to correct the terrible wrong did define a moment in the history of which we all studied today. his in time was when a man as a slave was not human. i want you to keep this in mind. he was a thing. he was just a piece of property. he was a chattel that could be bought and sold or whipped and killed at the will and whim his legal owner and only years of study and following the christian bible did he try to change status, and he believed himself of being a slave as well as to free all other people of a slave. and then doing that and that passed on to the american public. three little words which exist still today. and that was all here and now. nat wanted all, all slaves to be free. he wanted them to be free. right here. in this country. not in some place. sent somewhere else. and he wanted it now. right at time. on august 22, 1831.

today we all live that motto of nat turner. and if you take this with you, remember met's motto is all here and now. okay. okay. i've short legs, mr. turner. good evening. all righty. so thank you. i'm super excited to talk to you tonight. i have enjoyed getting to know you over last few days and learn about not just your grandfather. great great grandfather about you as a man. because i think the work that you do really relates directly to your grandfather. so tell us a little bit about when the first time that understood that you were the nat turner's great great grandson.

well, in answer to your question with that, there really wasn't a time that i didn't as far back as my memory go, it was always talked about in the family. but we were told don't tell anybody else because in southampton county, virginia, i was born back in 1948, in the fifties the 48 in the fifties. segregation still pretty heavily entrenched. virginia. a lot of the descendants, the white descendants of families that were killed lived right next door to us. we lived on a farm and they lived on the farm. next hours. so the concept accepting nat turner and openly talking about it was not encouraged. we used to go out to the places the homes were attacked and my grandparents, as well as mormons and uncles just and would have times we would identify what nat turner was as well as some the people were that came after him. so in answer to your question, i don't ever have a memory not knowing about nat turner.

did that cause a sense of fear for your family still living in virginia? what was that like in virginia beach? virginia beach is 80 miles from where i grew up in southampton county in campbeltown. goalkeeper so paper and that's where i learned about nat and i lived there until i was a teenager going to school, elementary school, as well as through high school, beginning in what we call middle school. the schools segregated. so we only had a little bit of a maternal the history. the county would not allow it to be taught in the history books. okay. there was only a little marker on the side of the road. says this is where it happened. and so it was among the the black families and the black community to where history of what nat turner was, what he did was passed on. mm hmm. how does your great grandfather's work show up in your work today? and i know that retired now, but you do a lot of really amazing things. and so me how those two connect. okay. well, in the early part of my

year growing up, i learned that to free your mind was the number one thing i always use that my how needed taught himself how to read and write that he refused to let himself held down just because he was a slave. also to grown up on a farm. there was a lot of work to do. and one of the ways to get out of work was reading. so i always made sure i had a book in my hand every day to keep you from doing any work. okay. you got it from going into work. got it. particularly out in the picking cotton, you know, pulling in coins, peanuts on our farm was a working farm. okay. and so everything you could a farm work was available for us to. do. my was in the navy. and as such, i had an opportunity to travel sometimes to go to other places. like i said, in my teen years was some of the students who were to integrate the schools. okay. so i once you remember that. yes. tell me about it. integration was a very painful process. a lot of the white families used

to stand in front of the schools and, throw rocks at us and spit at us. the highway patrol, on my first day of going to the integrated school had to open up a corridor for the black students to walk through. it was only three black students in this whole school. and i remember when i was in high school there was only 11 black students of about 1600 students in the school. and one day in a classroom in history, when we had on the telling a story, the teacher me was i related to nat turner because we had the same last. so you can imagine what that was like to be able to respond to that. at first i thought about, well, i wouldn't. that i was. mm hmm. because it was easy to be just anonymous in the classroom. but i always felt it was right to stand and to admit who my was. and so i did that. what did you. i told him that. yes, he was in my lineage, but he was my great, great great grandfather and explained to the the lineage that came to me was through my father, herbert turner junior, to his father, herbert turner.

through him, his mother fannie turner, who was the last person born in slavery in 1856 to natural youngest daughter charlotte, who was born on may 230, 1830, the year before he was executed. and that we were proud of our heritage. and the white students in the classroom did some of those real classic what you say that come along with misunderstanding. but i think they learned something, too, that dated nat turner was a real person. mm hmm. and that he wasn't something. myth and that people were there. and he was worth learning for them. learning something about. well, that's one of the things that i was looking most forward to talking to you about, is that he's not myth. it's not a myth. you have the real about what really happened. and it's as it's portrayed in books and movies, it's very different. i learned that from you. so we would love to hear a little bit about that. but before we do that, i'd like to know this. today is the day. mm hmm. it happened today. oh, he's dead. on his death. it today. right. 11 on a on august the 30th to me

on that november. the 11th, 1831. just up after 11:00, according to the jailers he recorded it because he had to record in order to present to court that the prisoner had been executed. mm hmm. that was taken from the jail to the place of execution, which was large sycamore tree in the town of jerusalem back today. but today that town is now called court cortland. right. that tree existed there until about the 1960s. and he was hanged. he was allowed to carry bible that he had and that he when he was when he was originally captured. and that bible today is the african-american museum in washington, dc. i was there when president obama opened the magazine, open the museum, and one of the first articles in which that everyone looked at was net turtle's bible. hmm. i looked into that bible myself. it has some of his original handwriting inside of it. it's a little small bible to fit

inside of his pocket and after he was executed, the city of of the not the city, but the state of virginia paid $375 to the relatives of nat's masters because he had killed them. $375 because the stated executed a valuable piece of property. so even in death, he was still viewed as property. as i said before, slaves were not human. mm hmm. in terms of these the laws of virginia, that tie in, even in basically the laws of the united states, they were they were not even citizens. they were not they had no recourse. it was amazing that they actually gave that trial. before they hanged him, he was captured on the 31st of october. and then his ex his trial was on november the fifth. mm hmm. he was charged with murder, sedition, treason and insurrection. mm hmm. and x. 11 days later, he was executed. what do you think he'd be saying if he were alive right now? would the world be where he would think?

that it would be. because i feel like days. i think we get very far and we've made lots of movement and have happened. and then other days i'm like, we're still in. yeah, you know. well, i think that if net was alive, he would be very pleased with the progress pleased pleased with the progress. that his family has made. okay. okay he went from having absolutely nothing. from having couldn't even have his own couldn't even have i think, possession of his own body. he's at he actually married, we believe it, around about 18, 18 or 18, 19. his wife's name was cherry. okay. they had at least five children. and out of those five children, charlotte the youngest one was the only one that lived, had children that we know of. we know that one of his daughters named sally was sold in north carolina, but we don't know what had happened to. her. nat himself and, cherie was so split up and sold separately in 19 and 1822 june of that year. the bill of sales of those records is still only court

records and that was sold for $450 to a man named tom moore. and cherry was sold for $175 to a man named charles reece. so sold for 450. but then upon death, they refunded 350, 300 7375. okay, because don't forget, there'd been a little depreciation from the time he was sold in 1822. wow. he was 22 years old and in the system, a 31 year old man was considered to be passed his middle age. so he was not as valuable in terms of work in in 1831 as he was in 1822. and he was considered not as valuable because the average lifespan for a black in about 40, 45 was 40, 45. yeah. if that that left that was lucky. if they got that far right, if you live beyond it mostly what was the average. and out of that about 40 to 45. okay what can you tell us now. this is a listening. i'm listening. what can you tell us about nat

turner as a man? so not what we've read about nat was in the textbooks what can you tell about him as man, as a person? well i will give you the beginnings of it. okay. as a child, nat was actually because the real name was nathaniel. that's what he was born in 1800. the benjamin time, who was a prosperous generation, third generation slave owner and farmer. his next mother was named nancy, and she was an african in the bill of sale. when benjamin tanner, when benjamin turner purchased, her described her as being an olive brown complexion, african female, kind of not of the usual -- region, which means that most likely she was from the east african side of africa. nat lived on the benjamin turner's for ten years from hundred until 1810, when benjamin turner died. it was here that during that time period, nat landry taught himself how to read and write. he taught himself. and he started learning about the bible. he had at least one grandmother who was alive during that time.

her name was bridget. most likely he was next father's mother because nat's father had escaped somewhere before nat got out of childhood. but we never knew his name. or what did he look like? mm hmm. but bernette referred to his father in his confession. so we can draw the conclusion that he did know about someone as a father figure. it was also who said a phrase she was coined the phrase, rather, that supposedly passed down with nat through his lifetime. she said he was he had too much sense to be raised. and if he was, he would never be of any use then and win as a slave too much sense to be raised. and if he was, he would be of no use to anyone as a slave. wow when benjamin turner died in 1810, he will he nat as well as jerry and some of about 17 other slaves over to his son turner and. then he let nat live, but samuel turned up from 1810 until 1822

and was doing this time period where he began to get the feelings or say this the messages from god to become a preacher. so that was a preacher. mm hmm. he also was a carpenter. he was a mill worker. he knew how to make tools. it wasn't just the field work. he worked in the fields, too. but he had many other skills. mm hmm. and most the people in that area recognized him being a man way with education and beyond. not only the slaves, but of most the white people. mm hmm. you have to take into account. most white people at that time couldn't read or write either. so to have a slave in their presence who not only could read the bible and the bible, but also to do many the skills was considered to be of an asset. and so samuel chernow allowed him to go about plantation. the plantation, or from church to church to preach. but you did he preached to the slaves in the area and that's he got to be known very by people and he was accepted as a man of

god as well as a man of his word. hmm. and end from with. samuel turner died in 1822. net was just he was sold the time more. mm hmm. and so he actually physically by name, embodied the of virginia. his name of nat turner changed to nat more. but tom moore allowed to keep his name. turner and why do you think he did that? i think tom moore probably felt that net was an asset to him. he could get extra money in from him, from his preaching as well as from some of the the neighborhood. he could also higher nat out. he hired him out to other farms to do metalworking to do you know farming work to do specific, you know, things like that. so moore could realize economics that was an advantage to let net keep name. mm hmm. do you think he ever feared with matt having so much and being able to read that there would be what ultimately came? i don't think so, because tom

will only own nat from 1822 to 1828 when he died. six years, six years. and then when he died, tom moore's youngest only son, putman, moore, who was about six years old, five or six years old, inherited a net property. mm hmm. and he became nat's new owner. so at five years old, he owned a 26 year old. a 28 year old man, as well as 17 other slaves. but during that time, net was now well-established. a preacher. mm hmm. he had also began receive signals from god to say that slavery was wrong, and he was ordained to change it. he that he had received signals that said that the first would be less in the last go first, and that he should take on the yoke that christ had born for the sins of man. hmm. so that that's really interesting because most people i think when you think about nat and you think about him from the lens that you read right there is this danger, this person who did this very dangerous thing. but what you were saying is he was actually a man of faith?

he was a man of faith. he was man of god. he believed the bible. he believed. one of his favorite passage in the bible was from the book of matthew saiki kingdom of heaven. and all things shall be unto you. he always that as a phrase of opening up his sermons, say it. benjamin turner was the first master, had provided some for a church to be built that, was known as turner's church. and that was allowed to preach to slaves. the back yard of the church. he preached there from probably from like 1820, all the way up until 1831. his last sermon was the week before the insurrection. he preached a large crowd of slaves in the back yard at turner's church, and it was he also gave out, coded to the slaves that he was going to start insurrection on the inside of turner's church on that same day. reverend richard whitehead, white minister, preach to the white congregation and they will all meet up again later on in another week under different

circumstances. but nat as a man, insurrection only came to him because he felt that was directed by god to take action to enslave lavery. now, how do you think? because i know we talked about this. what do you think it was that made him interpret that message when the bible says, sanderson, i kill, thou shalt kill and talked about and having ownership over people. so how did how do you think he got there. it was a slow process. one of the things that net did mention the boat in his confessions from the bible that he who knows his masters will and does it not shall be with many stripes. that is from luke, i think chapter 12, verse 11, net believe in the bible. he studied it all the time. he on fasting days, he baptized people. he himself was baptized as a christian in 1825.

he had a white man named everett brantley baptized each other. mcdowell in front of white people and black people. and at that baptism claimed that he was a free man because he was now a disciple. god. i don't know. how will set with the way in which god became, his master, and that god became his master. and but he still had to do the work of his earthly master. in 1827, he decided to run away from tom moore. but he stayed away for 30 days and he came back on his own because he said that's what he said, that god told that he who does is who knows his will and does it not. hmm. so he became because he was ordered by god to, go back into slavery. but he began to get signs and signals that, told him that god wanted to end slavery and would use him as the instrument to do that. so that's the only time when he started to go from being a very complacent man to becoming one who sought out militancy as a

way to end slavery. so let's talk about that militancy of the rebellion the rebellion. tell me. well, the rebellion actually only happened for three days. mm hmm. ned, it planned it for almost three years. he started in 1828, according his confessions of the decided that slavery had to be ended. he didn't know how to do it at first. so what he did was he started studying the area as he would go about from farms to farms to preach to the slaves. he started preaching to the slaves about the old testament philosophies. an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth and the right for vengeance, particularly for a wrong. like slavery. mm hmm. that was his way of preparing the so that they themselves would know victory could be won if they followed him and that this was the will of god and this was will of god. it was not prophet. it was not economics. he was looking to take over anything. he was looking to end slavery. so that all slaves would be free. he wasn't looking for his own. and that was of the things i

think that separated ned from a lot of people who did with bill or show some type of signs of, you know, opposing to slavery. they only looked out for their own freedom. he was looking out for the freedom for everyone. woman, child. it didn't matter in what you could understand someone looking out for their own freedom. you know, nobody to be a slave. right. so that makes sense. but knowing that he even had that compassion in his at that time, that i'm not just going to free me and figure it out for me, but going to take everybody with me. this freedom is for everyone, right? and everyone would also have to bear the same sacrifice. mm hmm. now was to me, was a tremendous advantage or, say, another, but a skill for him to able to convince people whose whole life had been told that they were not worth anything, that they are, you know, they have been separated from their they were not allowed to own anything and to get people to believe that they could become free men and free women by following the orders he received from god and

to back that up in february 1831. that was a total eclipse of the sun. and that was a tremendous sign. mm hmm. everyone saw that black. it was well recorded. so we know that it happened. and that said that that's what he used as the final signal to tell slaves god was on their side. hmm. so he assembled his first army, a fleet of people to starting with him was. six slaves named henry jack will sam nelson and hawk. okay. and together on the nest leadership with only weapons, like, knives and axes. and pitchforks. they started off august the 21st at night on foot in. the dark in all this extremely hot in virginia at that time to try to free themselves and everybody else out of slavery. to me, that was one of the greatest undertaking that i

think anyone could have ever done, because it required a tremendous amount of faith. mm hmm. i believe that in those woods and it can be extremely black, dark out there. been a little bit of a mathematician myself, astronomer. i did some calculations. and on that particular night on august 21, in 1831, the moon was in its fourth quarter, what they called it the first quarter. mm hmm. so it was only just a sliver of the moon, so it was not very well lit. so they had to find their way through the woods. pitch black. pitch black. and they covered 20 miles doing it. 20 miles? mm hmm. so not just to walk 20 miles, but to walk 20 miles and then. and then you attack homes? yes. it's planned was to kill the owners of, slaves and their homes and first home that he attacked was his own home that he in in which there were five white people in that home. joseph travis. sally moore for savages sally. travis putman. moore a little boy named william who was an apprentice, and joseph jr.

though sally and jones. and joseph's baby was a year old, they killed all five of the white people there. and then net technically became a free man because his masters were just his masters were dead. and they went from a farm to farm the night and the next day and attack in the farms in, the areas that had slaves. he didn't attack homes that did not slaves. quakers, particularly have a lot of quaker families living in the area and he bypassed each one of their homes. so this was it was not about just being this evil person doing this terrible deed of, you know, murdering all the white people around it really was him saying, no, going to do something myself. and with my people to free my people. and he only targeted those were enslaving people. wow. and and but he had also had told his followers that neither age nor sex more social status was to be spared. mm hmm. and richard whitehead. devon, which of late had in his

family of five, were killed. you know, i tell you that, the week before, he and ned at both preached turner's church. he and ned the next week, he and quite a few of the members of the church came on the how would you say meeting each other but different circumstances. the was it changed in total 55 whites was killed in the first initial area of attack and then the next day after they had covered almost 20 miles, they came in to with armed of whites. so they fought a battle. they eventually won the battle, but they lost a lot of he lost a lot of his men. they tried to move to another area because they wanted to attack the town of jerusalem, where could fortify the town, raise army. and then they forced the government, set all slaves free. unfortunately, the militias there were much armed than they were. eventually broke up his band and

nat was forced to go out and hide out for 74 days. one of the things that was probably very disturbing to matt a lot of the blacks fought alongside whites against him. talk about that again. you are a person of color. mm hmm. and you are trying to do something for all black people and a portion of the people who you're working for are working against you. me about that. i thought that to me when i first learned about that, i felt betrayed. i thought then, you know, i felt net would have been enormously betrayed because. he was like you say he was put his life on the line in. the people who had joined him, they were put in their life on the line. but at the same time can understand why people it. because this was all they knew. that's right. that's right. and they, too, might have been following that bible. that said, do not honor your masters and do care.

right. and i look at it and i think about living is an intoxicant when the worst condition of living is better than the most opulent surroundings, the being dead, asking to absolutely. absolutely. he was buried with all his riches. he was still dead. mm hmm. and think if he had had an opportunity and lived another 30 years to give up all those riches, he would have taken me that i would have taken the 30 years. anyone would. so i could not fault the slaves who fought against nat. because to them that was their way to live. it was survival? it was survival. mm hmm. you know, we look back at putting ourselves in that same situation, and you put yourself in that same situation. you have children. you if you know that if you go out and join these people, the punishment is going to be something terrific and you want to protect the life of the children, if not your life. the life of the children. so you had to make a choice right then and there. and i'd say i to tell people

when i would give much to anybody. ask yourself, would you have been one to have joined him knowing that what you were facing? mm hmm. and i don't think many people the nerve to do that. mm hmm. mm hmm. so i don't fault the slaves who fought against him. i just feel sorry for them. hmm. how do you reconcile that murder? by any means? mm hmm. is not good to murder another is not good. how do you reconcile that with the work that he was doing? and the reason he was doing it for was ultimate good? mm hmm. where do you see? well, murder is that little fine line between killing when you kill a chicken to eat it? is that murdering the chicken or you kill him? because you need sustenance in war, soldiers are taught to kill. i was in the military and they embedded into your. you have to kill the enemy before enemy kills you. mm hmm. in this case, when you're looking at it to where that the

slave owners were the enemy and they killed slaves all the time, like, say, a white master could kill a slave at any time if he were no reason at all, for no reason or any white person could just take a person. and then they did. then just they couldn't do it. they could do it. they did it all the time. mm hmm. so if you're going to overthrow a system of that, you have to overthrow it completely. you got to be thorough. and the people that were killed, whether they were man, woman or, child, because children could own slaves, women could own slaves. they all benefited from it. mm hmm. so just not just killing the adult white males. you're not murdering men in a battle you would eliminate in the. because it is either you kill them or they will kill you. so it's a matter of survival. so that didn't murder people as much as to say i don't look at it. i don't call. it was murder. it was justifiable homicide.

justified homicide. oh. i think some people will, you know, not agree with that. yeah. that's that morality. yeah. but that's an interesting way to look at it, to justify viable homicide. based on the reasons he was doing it. yes. now, tell me how you feel he felt on that first night. so i want to go back before all of it ended. and he's in the in the woods on that first night. well, the first night when they started, they assembled a place called cabin pine. okay. and at first, most of the a lot of the slaves did not want to kill all the whites or kill the white masses. said maybe we would just kill them like the. mm hmm. or maybe we'll just tie them up. but net was upon that they had to be eliminated. mm hmm. and he was the he was selected to be the person that make first blow. so when they went to the home of his master net went into his master's chamber while he was in his sleep. this was at night. he him over the head with an ax. hmm. it didn't quite kill him. and then one of the next lieutenants named will finish

them off. and then next, which was the travis, his wife, sally, set and said, what's happening? and we'll chop their head off with ax. mm hmm. and i won't get into it. but these were gruesome murders to the killing. they were killed, of course. yes because they didn't have any guns. they only had knives, axes, and maybe a pitchfork to just rig a common farm instrument so they could their hands on. mm hmm. and then they use those. they go from home. and it's at joe's of travis's house. they did get a gun or two and some powder. and they went to the next which the next house they hit was the late there. francis. they killed him. and he only had one slave. but they feed him. and at joe to travis at the travis farm, there were also six total, 17 slaves, of which nine of them were male. two of them were young boys. so what they they didn't join. so he picked up as he would go from farm to fall, he would pick up people and they would kill the everybody who was there if they were sleep. mm hmm.

wow. and killed them with whatever weapons they could get their hands on. mm hmm. so that night after the first kill, the killings had happened. he's back the field because they have to hide. no, they kept moving. oh, they kept moving. okay. but they had to sleep. oh, they just kept going. they kept going. okay. they started that midnight. and that night on the 21st. and they stayed on the move all the way to the 24th. which they didn't to sleep or eat. well, some of them stop the where they went. and unfortunately some of his kept some his recruits decided to hit this little steels or the little stashes of their masters. they had helped the masters make them. mm hmm. almost every home had a liquid back then. mm hmm. whites enjoyed their spirits. it was well known for their brandy in. that area, the peach brandy in particular. so the slaves got into some of that. and unfortunately, some of he lost some of his fighters

because of that. but by the same token, of his fighters got a lot of courage. right. because they can do either want to kill you or give you a lot of courage. okay. so they are going for four days straight, four days straight. so this is happening every few hours or however often it took for them. the distances some of the houses was only about half a mile to some of the houses that they went to covered as much as three miles before they would go. and they had to do a go about it very stealthily. mm hmm. and it was when the sun came up they had already killed about 22 people, but still had to move and they were coming in very fast. by that time they had managed to some horses and mules and some of them were mountain. mm. and they would prevent the whites from escaping and then they would convince the slaves to join them. but also at the same time too they ran as slaves and did fight against them. mm hmm. some of them even put up roadblocks to try to stop them but unfortunate thing was that he couldn't get to the tamil jerusalem because of a river

that stood between him and town and the whites were able to fortify the two bridges which you could cross. okay. and he couldn't get across. and then from that, they able to rally in, get more troops in and eventually with just the power of their weapons. he was defeated. so me what you think he felt when he was finally captured. i think that nat turner made himself captured. he was able hide for 74 days, almost in front of the whites. he went right back to where his home was. even though the masters and all those had been killed. and he within the area, his wife cherished was living in a place that was only about a half mile. she was living with mcgill's race. they didn't attack gil's reece's house. and when the whites began to for the insurrection, gil's race protected cherrie and the children. that's how charlottesville, from the vengeance, from being executed by like. i think net wanted to during that time he was out running around for ben capture avoiding

ben captured. he realized that he wanted let the population know why did the insurrection and. he did try to recruit more people and when he was finally captured he was actually betrayed by two white guys, two black guys. i'm sorry. back to two slaves had gone out huntin. mm hmm. and they came across his hiding place, and they went back and told their masters where he was. and then the militias surrounded the area, and they kept. he kept trying to avoid them. and then he decided to give himself up to a man named benjamin phelps on october the 30th. that 74 days after the insurrection had started. mm hmm. and then they took him from there. it's amazing. didn't execute him right there in the woods. mm because from where he was captured, it was about 11 miles to where they took him to. to the town of jerusalem where a court was. and the governor virginia had demanded that there be trials. for the slaves. so there was set there was a of 29 trials of all the slaves that had been captured. 17 was executed, including one

woman who was executed. her name was venus. and annette was the last of the ones to be executed out of there. the others, most of them were men, women, and they were sold south out of the state. and a couple of them were actually back to their masters because their masters came in and said they had been a good slave and they would make sure that they would stay out of trouble if they gave them back to him. because don't forget, the slaves were property. they had value. wow. so based on how slaves were treated then period, they probably didn't give them a horse to walk those 11 miles to get. he wrote that they actually wrote him on the back of a wagon according to the some of the history from that time period. and crowds of whites were gathered along to the little number, no arrows and lanes and they were demanding that he be hanged right then and there they threw rocks and bricks at him. and by the time they got him to the jail, he was not in the best of shape. but they did put him in a jail

and in thomas gray, a local lawyer, came in and asked, met would he like to confess, would he like to write till why he did what he did. so in three days, in a three day period, nette gave almost continuously a confession, which thomas gray wrote down, and he said word for word. that is what we really know about nat, mostly because in that he described his life himself. why did what he did it also gave the whites a timeline. how the people were killed. mm hmm. they use that confession, his trial to wear that it was read in the court. a couple of people testified against him, including one black person and the court made up ten make them what they call magistrate. he was you have to take of this slave property. they were not citizens so they couldn't be tried as in a regular court. right. he was tried in what was called small claims court. a court of law. mm hmm. as a piece of property, it was determined whether or not he

should be terminated, which would? the loss of that property. wow. so in the. in his last moments, do you think that he felt a sense of righteous indignation, or do you think that he felt fear for was getting ready to happen? do you think he felt satisfied with what he was able to accomplish in those 74 days? i go back from confession, what he said then from the records that the jailer, the jailer who i actually had an opportunity to meet a descendant of the jailer. mm and they had some records in their family. and the jailer had wrote down that nat's demeanor was that of a man who was ready to meet his savior and. that he said to the crowd of people that he had no regrets, the insurrection, for he had done the work that had directed him to do. hmm. now, one of the things you can take into account this is they went from farm. the farm they only killed people. they did not burn down any. they didn't burn any crops or kill animals.

the people who were killed, men and women, were not violated upon, you know, had the fear that they would turn mass raping and all that. none of that. they only killed the people. were the owners to free the slaves. mm hmm. so he was not looking, and they didn't steal items from the homes, and they only just killed people and then moved on and took the slaves with them. some say, well, okay, taking the slaves with them was form of stealing. but they didn't. they didn't have a wagon load of. mm hmm. they were not like pirates. mm hmm. mm hmm. he was strictly given by god. was to kill people. and he didn't try to get his own personal freedom. because, like i say, the 24, 74 days they were looking for men, they couldn't find them. he was the world's most wanted man, and they were all america at that time. well, i would almost think he knew that he would not get his own freedom, that he knew that at some point he would be captured. he would be harmed. and so he absolutely was doing it for the.

of the other people. yes. and that's what he stated in his confession, that it was not for him. one of the things that the whites tried do was to discredit his intelligence. the word it passed around many times before the net was very intelligent. he knew how to make paper. he could make gunpowder. he knew how to calculate the the tides and the stars. he could move it. that's. they were able to move about. he knew how. read the stars. so they could tell where they were going. mm hmm. and was a team of white men who came from. from the university of william and mary at that time, which was in williamsburg, was about 40 miles away. they came to jail and they supposedly examined ed and questioned him. they wanted to prove that he was not intelligent, but they away scratching their heads because he was able to answer all of their questions. right. right. so when he was execute it, his head was taken off of his body and given over to those very same doctors who had come from william and mary to take it back to study.

so speaking of, we want to give a chance for our to ask you a question. and i know that you are overly prepared for that, but are some folks and i want to give the caveat that some people may not agree that it was done. the perspective of wanting to save people was done. you know, by god giving him the order to do that. there may be folks in this audience that doesn't, you know, they don't. yeah, that doesn't work for them. people still today still say that he was wrong. okay. there are some who said that he should have restricted the killing to white and children and women should not have been killed. okay. so i can expect that. yeah. okay. so let's get let's get ready. do we have any questions in our audience. anyone interested in knowing about mr. here or his great, great, great grandfather? anyone. how important is it for your kids to hear the same things. okay. the question was how important for my kids my my descendants to

carry the lesson. okay. i have three children, two boys and a girl. and i have. six grandchildren, five girls and a boy. i made sure that they know. and i to give them all the information is one of my reasons for why i did so much research when i was 40, my early forties one of my great aunt, she was the of my grandfather's sisters and brothers who was alive, said she wanted to know exactly how the family was related. nat turner it was always stories, but we didn't have any real documentation. and so she said, well, i'm, i know you have one of those boys that going to college and all. can you use your your back then? they used to call it intelligence, diligence. uh huh. and she would like know she was 89 at that time. and so i took it to months. i started looking through records. i first i didn't know how to do it. and then i thought about, well, why not? look, the us census reports. so i started looking at census data reports.

they go back to the 1870s. every ten years there's a census taken. so 1860 slaves were not the census in virginia, mostly as free people. they were only strictly under the names of their masters if they the masters would either say he's got so many females, so many males. but since i knew the names of some of the masters i was able to put them in place in the 1860s, 1870 was the first census taken after slaves had been freed in 1865 and then in 1870, 1880, 1890. that's when i saw my grandmother. 1870, i see my grandma. great grandma, fannie on there. who is next? granddaughter along with charlotte, who is nat's daughter. and they were living in the place which is right next to the john plantation, which was one of benjamin turner's son. and in 1880, they're in the same location. and then by that time, fanny had gotten old enough to where she was starting to have children. so some of the children are listed in in the 1890, 1890 census was destroyed a fire.

but the eight the 1919 ten census. so that's how i first started to put the line together. and then i started going the county courthouse, looking at records found that everything that had happened on the course, all the court cases were record it and those books are still there. then i decided, okay, well, i knew who benjamin turner and samuel turner i look to see. did they have wills. and i found in the will books their wills. i started looking through the books to transfer or as a property. anytime someone bought and sold a slave they had to pay taxes on it. mm. so if you follow the money you could find out who been sold on saturday and who, how much they were paid for or when someone died and their family wanted appraise the estate. that would be an appraisal made. all of their property would be valued. so that was a sources that i was able to put together. and so i was able to put it together and i presented it to

my aunt corrine and she was so pleased she bought to the rascals. so she always wanted to know if those stories that she was told and as she told her children, she had eight children and all the years of wish that we knew about the the farm that she grew up on is the farm where nat turner was actually captured on. and so i felt that i had done a great service to someone and i passed that around to other people in the family and everybody wanted to know more. they kept saying would do one for me, do one for me. so my profession is computers in computer science. i've worked in the computer industry field for a long time for 40 years. so i did some this in relation to some of my workshops. i did some i had done some programing for the department of education and also for the department of. so i had access to the congressional records as well as. i got state access to the state and i started going through

researching all that and put it together. so i passed that information. i got a large information now and then i started connecting up with other people. i found out that there were scholars, a lot of scholars out there who was actually writing about nat turner. william drury had wrote a book about the insurrection in 1899. i had known that until i started researching our hindu triangle had a great a very good book on nat turner scott french at the university of virginia, had a chance to meet with him. he was a historian. kent kenneth greenberg. and i got to start getting idea maybe i could put this information together and present it and some of the schools in the area, when they found out about it, they asked me to start coming to make presentations like i did at the high school or at some of the colleges and universities. and so it like a an accidental step into. but i made sure that try to make sure that the information was all and are your kids carry that down now let's talk a bit about that to a certain degree. i mean, they are not taking it

on as like as much as i would like for them. well, you're still active, but i'm still active. yeah, i'm i'm still here. they have never lived on the farm. we still own our farm that we've had since the 1880s. they go back that far and the farm only about five miles from where nat turner originally. so that's how i knew about growing up in it. and so i'm faced with the dilemma that i have this property that i know my grandkids are not interested in it, but i want them to continue to maintain it. the churches down there where the families, all of them, i take them out to the cemeteries so they can see who their grandparents were. the great grandparents and great great grandparents and always impressed upon them that are i'm the third great grand son of nat turner, but my grandchildren and the fifth great grand mom persons of that time now have an in one grandchild as a turner. and that's happened. be a girl from my side of the line of it made the line in with

the name turner, but it'll still go on. there's lots of other turners in the family. my great grandmother, fannie, had ten children and most of those children had ten children. 16, 12 children, which was common, which common at that time and was done to support families and their field work. absolutely. yeah. and so got a lot of other turners out there and the people so i the information readily around to them it's not just not looking at it only to make my children i give it freely to anyone who in the family who wants it. absolutely. do we have any other questions? we have one in the back and one on the side. so the that answer. okay. thank you it's a pleasure to be here. i work in a public school and i'm on a mission this year to help our young black kids understand the power of history, of their history and. a lot of young people kind of.

i grew up with a grandmother and a great grandmother and a mother told me black history right. and i was very interested in it. but i tend to find that in 2022, they don't realize that emmett till died just 67 years ago. and one twofold question what call to action do you have about the power of for today's black and? how did your knowing your own family history? how did it shape your personal identity? because some people don't have. the luxury of knowing the stories that you know about your third great grandfather and i think it's amazing i was the nerdy kid who wanted to know my cousins not so much, but i realized that there's power in that and i see the need for in today's black kids so that they know how to carry history into their future. okay. what else do the first part of your question? as i told before, growing up on the farm is always looking

trying to get out of work and so for me learning was the best way to keep them having to go and work in the hot and i look back at it and say well maybe i had that innate ability because met taught himself how to read and i'll look at it and i think that his opportunities that he had when he was growing up, the fact that he was able to become a that he could do things that, was not always just working in the fields. day and day out, that he could also his world to know just the boundaries of his plantation because most slaves had to stay on their plantation, work with them. the owners tell them that. they say, you can you have to live here in this barn, you can only come out in the morning and you work and then you go in and even better not come out. that was their world. they didn't have any other activity, didn't have any other way to learn anything, other that. so i look at it, i had the opportunity to expand mind from an early age and just had an

insatiable appetite to always want to know. i love the steel even now in my old age and i don't ever consider that i would know to where i say this is it. i'm always looking to get the next book. i'm always reading the newspapers every day i learn some things just coming here to spokane i never knew about indian tribe, so i can take that back with me that i came here and i'm like, i've add something to my and i intend to do some more research because in my family heritage is native american. and also to this, the second part of your question, i feel that it's important for children to know about. themselves first before they know about someone else is great to learn about the other part of the world. what the world like. but you need to know as much you can about who you are. i've traveled around the world a lot and. the only continent i've never been on is antarctica. i feel that i have a unique

prospect and taking what i have about myself and how i meet other people when we were talking and they talk about their family and about their history, i can talk about my family and about my history. i've had dinner with people who are living in the same household that their relatives lived in back in the 1400s or attend the same that goes all the way back to the 1200. so i can carry on a conversation with and feel comfortable because i do know something about where i come from. thank you. hi. my name is tony. i'm a local social worker in town town. i'm enthused and happy that your family has remained in virginia. you know throughout your life. my question is, what has the state of virginia done to recognize great, great, great grandfather and their, you know, and their history, their

monuments in, their, you know, dedications. it's been slow. at first, it was never, hardly ever at all in the history books when i was the history virginia history, my early years, it was just one little paragraph and. when i was in high school, i saw, you know, virginia history, too. what? a teacher asked me was nat turner and i related. that was only a small paragraph in the books today is a very large of the curriculum of virginia has this thing called standards of learning which the students have to show equivalency and to in order to pass the certain grades and the nat turner as well as a part slavery is one of the required readings and if required knowledge on those a lot of the colleges. now include that nat turner celebrations in their particular their black history month. like i say, i've been asked to speak it all different kinds of schools. one time i was even asked to go to a school to which doing

integration in order to virginia was one of the schools, one of the states that participated what was called massacre, resistance. after the brown versus board of education decision in 1954, a lot of virginia counties closed their schools rather than integrate. and for the white kids to have school, they set up academies. the black kids had to either go to another state or do without. well, one day i was asked to partici pate in a black history celebration. it was called southampton academy, which was the white that, you know, one day they set up pacific life, the white kids to avoid integrated. and i when the principal asked me about and i said, do you know the history of this. he says, yes, but parents are now more progressive and they wanted to know. and i went and i gave the presentation i gave them and i gave a full speech and the kids received that very well. they asked very important questions. i have to speak to the school

yesterday. right was john b roger school are you and the students were very engaged and their children want to learn and as i said that when i was in that class back in 1963, the white i believe you know, were willing to learn. they were able come out surprised that nat turner was a real person. when you read something about someone like they said no, that could not possibly happen. but it was he did. and so virginia, today, there is a lot of information about turner. there's a lot of discussions going on there's still a lot of also to backlash. there are people who would like to save slavery exist or that it wasn't all that bad. and there are those who felt that nat turner a bloodthirsty, venomous murderer, although they probably used the n-word. well, they didn't quite know then. yeah. to describe him. right.

so we go. there's something very special that have to hear, and we'll get to get you. you wrote a poem. yeah. you're a bit a poet. i try and. you wrote a poem about nat turner. mm. can you read a portion of that. us. yes, i would. the poem i specifically that if net had had an opportunity to speak to people before he was executed, what would he have said? and so i tried the channel net and when came up with settle down it was called a chapter in the oasis. and the poem goes perhaps i may not have much to offer. i have few flowery words to utter my heart aches to be in such a muddle. guns are pointed at me and bundled, but i bear the pain for you because to have honest to to give what would be happier in his life than to be true to each. perhaps i have no aggression sell tis hard to escape from this labyrinth my body battered in the thorn until the spears

appears and hide at the full but i wear the scars for you because i have come forward to beyond what to be happier in this life than to be than for to be my brother. perhaps i may be a guest in this oasis. i have not a shelter to hide. my thoughts of hate are lost. the maze, all eyes there hide as i pass to give grace but i carry the anguish for you because i have sincerity would i be happier in this life than for us to love one another? but perhaps i may not sound your praise. i have no voice left. the raise my mind is shattered by the way, the mob is laying arms for the day. but our preaching ever higher. your esteem costs mortal self has gone to rest. want to be happier in this life and for each to live at your very so that's what i feel the nat turner would have wanted the world to know about him any given opportunity to speak it. and i'm so pleased that i was able to share that poem you and

i hope and in some way to inspire you to want to know more about him. well, i'm excited for you that you were to join us today. join us in beautiful institution gonzaga university, city, and to be a part of northwest african-american museum descendant series. so thank you so, mr. turner, for being here. now we want to give another question. we have one more question. we want to get that one in. okay. yes. so thank you all so much for being here. you already me. but i'm dr. kelly slater. i'm the director of education and engagement with the northwest african-american museum. and we also want to just say thank you to our viewers online. we have quite a few viewer questions coming in online. i wanted to ask a few of those for our viewers online. the first one is from my tricia s and her question, nat turner was a piece property, according to the legal system of the period. do you have any theories as to why the legal system would

provide a trial for someone who was legally? yes, as i said it was pitiful going conclusion and it was to be executed. but the governor of virginia that time, william floyd, named the governor, wanted to have a show to the world that slavery was legal and that the legal system of, the united states of america at that time, the laws of virginia, supported that. the weight of law so by having a trial, even though it was a show trial that they proved to the world that slavery was not an aberration and that it was legal and that what was that? the whites had the legal right to their property and they had the legal right to do with that property, whatever they chose to do. thank you. do have any more online questions? yes, we do thank you all so much. and thank you, mr.. we've actually been able to extend it with many questions, and we really appreciate your time you being here.

this question is from patricia and. we have a question from charlotte. how did the family reconcile the mutilation of his body after the hanging? well, at 1831, the family had absolutely nothing to do about it. i mean, nat turner was hanged was suppose of some slaves up there at the according to the record step at that time, a thunderstorm came up right after he was hanging his body was given over to the medical examiner who removed the head and the remains of his body. and then it was put into what was known as a pulp was grain through the years. a lot of people say that and that was boiled down and that his, you know, candle lights were were made from the fat and some people say that that was money pouches made his skin that his bones broken up and made into powder to be used juju juice or whatever. but as far as from what known from the history of it, that is

accurate history. none of that actually happened. a few people in the county used to claim that they had pouches that was made from his skin, but was an analysis was actually done on those. it turned out to be deerskin. there was a skull has now been examined by the smithsonian institute that was reputed to be the skull of nat turner, that after the the doctors that william and mary got examining it, it was given over to someone who took it to chicago and it survived. the chicago fire and then now. but we're still determined if that was the skull of nat turner and with dna we can tell now. well some of dna can. hmm mm hmm. our next question, you was one from patricia. yes. and so, yeah, we had a lot of comments and some people just you thanking you for sharing your story and telling us about your your heroic ancestor. i was just going to share a of

those comments with you from our viewers and then take it back to canada. so, patricia, was that thank you so much. i am older than bruce turner and i didn't learn any of in elementary and high schools in the hbcu i attended and she's from new orleans and another one from charlene just saying thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. this has been such a wonderful evening and that she appreciates your time. mr. turner. thank you. i appreciate them. i would go so far as to say the people in the room also appreciate your time and appreciate you being and sharing my thoughts and your had a gentleman back to keep raising this. oh, yes sir. yes. when i was in high school, i guess if you would have been in college, what came out became quite controversial, started way off. yes, he was william wrote a book that called the confessions of nat turner, which the same title that thomas gray's confession was in william book to pick net

of the 21 year old. in my opinion 16 that his only reason for he had the insurrection was he had the hots for this white girl named margaret whitehead, whom nat did kill. he was that was one of the few people that he was one of the people he was actually charged, murdering. and that was the basis of styron's book. always tell people it's good literature, but is trash as far as when it comes to accuracy. whose thread that. yeah and if you go online right now you pull up the confessions of nat turner you're going to pull up william styron's. i had an opportunity to meet william styron he and i debated that quite a bit, but he the book as a form of fiction but i told him how would he how people who are the descendants of abraham lincoln feel about if he wrote that abraham lincoln was a pirate who, went around raping women up and down the southern seaboard rather than the president of the united states. and what was his answer? well, he said probably they wouldn't like it, but the fiction is he has of as an

artist. he has a right write. mm. very good. we have one more question as well. okay mr., thank you so much for being here, sharing this powerful history with us. i wonder about how you. define the death of nat turner. did he give up his life for freedom. did he lose his life for freedom was he lynched? what terminology do you use in describing how his life ended? i'd like to say that nat was a casualty in the fight for freedom. he was neither. like i say, he didn't give up his life. he hoping that sure, he had every anticipation that would live and that in order to get the people to follow him was that they could be in terms of

the state. they said that you know, he's been executed. you could say, well, he was not murdered or nat because they did go to the sense having a trial and that you have a trial and a person is executed that the death penalty, you're not killing the person or so murdering the person, you're giving them punishment. but in terms of, say, the war for freedom, there are survivors and their casualties. if you look at the say that the nat turner insurrection could have been the first shots fired to the american civil war, then that would have made him a casualty. the civil war, even though they happened 35 years later. so hope that answer to your question that he just didn't give up his life. no, he was a casualty of war. think i've learned so much from you? i've learned so much from you and. what? i hope that people realize in speaking with you and listening to your words is that no matter what, think about nat turner. no matter if they think what he did was good or none of that matters, what matters is that he

was a man. he had faith. he did what he felt was right. and he also did it so that you and i would be able to benefit would benefit from that and that we could be here together to even just talk about it. so thank so much. thank you so much for being. now we'd like to turn it back over to the president of the northwest african american museum lanesha debardelaben. okay. and i think all of you. this is a conversation that we do not want to end are learning. so much. this has been such an insightful conversation and we thank you for expanding our awareness of our american history.

mr. turner we thank you for the depth of research that you have done with love for your ancestry. and thank you for sharing with all of us and inspiring us with this history and with this