think about it, because i think peter, we're living in a very secular world where people tend to avoid these questions or tend to assume these questions have been answered. not only have they not been answered, but they've hardly been asked seriously. and i said with the overwhelming evidence that has kind of piled up just in the last decades, i said, people need to be made aware of this and it is game changing stuff. it is game changing stuff. and i'm amazed that many other books like this been written before. so i, i just feel like it's important for us to be honest, this evidence is out. let's look it. talk show host author eric metaxas, his most recent book is called is atheism dead. thank you for joining us on book

now it is my pleasure to introduce to you the mayor of our great city, baltimore. mr. brandon scott. good evening, everybody. okay, we got to let you may know where we are. we in baltimore.

good evening, everybody. that's more like it. thank you, dr. brown. and it is my honor to join us all here in welcoming the incomparable jemele hill to the greatest city in america, the city of baltimore. ma'am, my personal. yeah. let's give a big round of applause. i just hope roland asks you those questions like he asked me on on tv sometime. i'll be jim. yes, sir. my appreciation for this woman dates back many, many years. as everyone in baltimore knows, i'm an avid sports fan, and i did not miss the episode of his and hers. and i haven't watched sports center since her and michael left the show. but it that combination of sports and hip hop and pop culture really spoke to my spirit. that's my spirit language. and i know that i'm not alone in saying that. and i think that's why so many people relate and respect you,

man. you are someone whose innovation and talent aims to bridge what divides too many people in our world. and as i told you, i don't listen to podcasts, but i do listen to and bother as a fellow little brother and foreign exchange fan, of course. phonte and 91. this episode is on my favorite, but but most importantly i think the carriage rush and your willingness to step away from a table where you were no longer served or appreciate it when it was probably easier to stay and more lucrative to stay is another reason why so many of us own all of your black girl magic. lastly, i want to thank you for coming to the library. a true jewel of baltimore city. a thankful to all of our donors who helped to not only put on events like this, but for what our branches do and neighborhoods for young people and families. each and every day, especially

through the pain they make with a pratt, was a partner in helping our young people learn. we know this week we found out that so many young people across our state fell back. but in many cases, baltimore bucked the trend. and that, we know is due in part to the great partnership here at the library and we know there will be more renovation. and there i say the new pratt library in my neighborhood in park heights to come. so thank you all for being here. thank you to mr. and mrs. brown for always being fabulous doers and supporters and the biggest cheerleaders of our great city of baltimore. and we look forward to a great conversation. thank you. thank you so much, mayor scott. it's now my time to introduce miss jemele hill to you, but i really am just going to piggyback on some of the things our mayor has already told us about. ms.. hill, as i understand it, her

passion for writing really started a young age, and she probably showed her great potential and her passion for writing as early as in an secondary school. i'm currently mr. mal hill is a contributing writer to the atlanta ic magazine and she is, as mr. scott tells us, that she is the host of a podcast called jemele hill is unbothered. yes, she's received multiple awards. she was selected as journalist of the year by the national association of black journalists. and worth magazine, not a head. recognized her as one of the most powerful 21 women in there magazine in 2019.

her memoir recently released, has already been getting a lot of attention and positive acclaim as an empowering and unabashedly bold book. tonight, she's in conversation with roland martin, our host and managing editor of roland martin unfiltered. so i'm going to turn the stage over to roland martin and to mr. mel hill. and again, thank you both for joining us tonight. all right. glad to be here. my song, ron, i'm black. i need some bass. way too much treble bass. all right. glad you could. y'all game in the back seat now. now you go. now they can hear me. and i still need some more bass. that's way too. as too much trouble for brothers. you got to hear us in. all right. glad to be here. glad that jamal here will address y'all. give it up. i

>> i just knew there was one week temperatures jeans and a t-shirt and how many teachers you own. >> will first of all this was like i i asked you about these events because why do you want to start roasting. >> i know you going to come in here unlike best. >> the gym teacher. >> yes, i do have a lot of teachers. >> i'm trying to help her get paid. >> is not just about money. >> it is true, t-shirts, support black journalist and obviously the mission of ritalin headlines of yes, but no who i knew that i had to you know dress up a little bit. and i believe in making money. >> really become if there's one thing about you, you have at least five hustles going at all times. that's what you are our boy. >> that is right and there's a lot of white people, that i can move to the next job if i could've it you know that.

>> i i don't like listen, one of the reasons why i was very excited that you m grade into te conversation because you like the busiest man inne show busins number one, you're doing an incredible job with the crew and i donated and you all lead to donate to this man before we get into the conversation, about this book, do understand the having a black press is essential to a democracy, is essential to the state of the press of please. >> i met. [applause] >> we talk about this all of the time, nobody's coming our stories and hearing from us, nobody cares about our perspective and roland is on it every single day so please support him. >> i'm a comeback. >> so want to start there because the thing for me that i've always understood is for human possibility an old and it also always believed or not believing in white proselytization and there was a lot of people thought that you are absolutely have out of your

money you s should have just sht up and stock it up and espn and people told you what was wrong with you and how dare you leave that good paying job. and the reality is that no matter how much they were paying you can be were pigeonholed and you learn through the experience, what you could and could not do and frustrating was that to make that money in the box. >> what you can relate to the story roland, very well. >> while this i story. >> touché, touché and i got you and you can relate to when you're at a net worth it destination for everybody else and so just give you guys a little bit of a contact center right about this, this was never in the vision board of jobs, my dream job was to actually work at sports illustrated who because i was a writer by trade and that's what i do and so sports illustrated was that job to the new york times is for. >> yes it was nestler wanted to

work so when espn came across my path i was like, this is call, their vague and is putting money investing in journalism and that is what led me there because of the time were talking about 2006, and the story in the newspapers, had almost feels crazy to save is now knowing where the newspapers are now, but the end in this economy in the newspapers were being s strongly predicted in 2006, and revenue was shrinking. you can have these two things happening at once you had your avenue i don't readers getting over, not younger and so, because of that, i said you know, once i had an opportunity to interview for a columnist job at espn, nothing to do with television is that this has t to be the move to make for my future, just to save my writing careers it was not like i went there was some dreams of being 11 pathway of rob roberts, that was not when i was thinking and

eventually moving up the ranks, fighting for real estate, going through the mechanisms of the espn and once i got to what should've been the opportunity of a century, that's when you see all of the asterix, no question that of a generational money at espn for sure. but once we started to have created differences which preceded the whole donald trump controversy. >> because his nurse, and a lot more creative writing. >> but you served as mike,. >> on espn and let them know. >> yes he representative all of the way that is why his and hers is so special is my former cohost michael smith used to say, that was our mentality like this was like ice cream man. >> in the district into one of the flagships and networking

that means money. >> yes a dozen is the legacy show and it's the baby of the network and a lot of people wonder why would you move, twice as much viewership and four times as much money brand new study you the studio wash hundred million dollars in production south of triple overnights, but being that he comes at the expense of this coming all of a sudden, like you really didn't know how foolish we were being on his and hers they didn't. >> they didn't want to. >> will be did they liked all the cool things that we did. this was a real 40, we came into america's kids we did allik kins of foolish things are likely literally just broke every one and that's what made the show so special. >> and among the audience. >> yes because we were doing the show for you all, for us and

being ourselves and we were like listen, nobody else must've is. our people don't mess with us and you welded become strong and so that's why we were able to wring it if we try to do that of the sports center there would be 2000 e-mails about it s so we wl to them hefr would've been frightening okay so we get into this for center and slot of cooks in the kitchen nobody knows how to make a meal and it was a tough thing creatively to balance and one thing that mike and i i decided early on is that if we go now, we are going down our way straight up, there is never going tos be able to tell us that we are on television sue met. [applause] [applause]an >> and so when we started to have that infighting and everything was happening in the donald trump thing blew up and you know as much is this job changed my life does make is i was, really hate doing this and

father coming in every day in fighting to be myself and like i just can't get down like that so when i walked away, people often understand that i walked away knowing that it was going to be better for me mentally and knowing that like i did not have to engage in all the silliness and all the time and i did it because i wanted to because trust and believe, this is my contact said they could not have ushered me out and so i had the equivalent of a no trade because an athlete hasn't had to waive that's get upp off of this persn is mutually beneficial because by this time, the "fox news" and everything they were all over me and left againnd and so it was a breakup where nobody wants to be the first person to say, we don't go together no more and i was happy to say, it is over. [laughter] okay, we broke up. >> you think that when you talked about again, that the

closer shift of what i was at was the first of the heaven espn but all of the comments they have today about her late brother stuart scott, he caught tech come the heated it is lingo and they could not stand his language. and now the audience change provides for the reality is they preferred keith and dan patrick, to stuart scott and he had to battle that stuff and this will people don't understand behind the scenes the stuff that i had to deal with essien and, people don't understand the battles that we have to deal with and you just see is on the erica we have no idea what happened off air. >> that's what i tell people especially during that time and it will happen when the network

that you are looking for can be coming to some - and i've done something egregious and people some of my people there not fighting and they have no idea that every day is a fight. and what you said that about store scott and one of the biggest supporters of mike and i and here's the text us all of the time and tell them don't let them change you and gave us gay and great advice you like big brother to us and for sure and in a way while there was encouragement it was also a warning and it was a term that we phrased about like once there was an enormous management shift while we were on the air that change how they wanted to do sportscenter. >> the leader of espn resign. >> well before the leader who was a former president, before he resigned, there was another leadership change and for terms of who wouldr be in charge of r show and we knew this percent and he was also somebody the

stuart scott dealt with as well who was one of his main adversaries when he began to introduce bouillon in a lingo and how we talk about it and he was a dudee standing in his way. and suddenly, he's in charge of our show kind of feeling this was not going to go well. but i was like okay, we will see what happens and ultimately coming playing out just likee a thought, we were the mobile quarterbacks that got the coach who only wanted to drop haphazard in this what we were and is veryt clear they did not want us we were not their first choice, they did not want us to try to sort of make it work and a lot of things culturally started to happen with our show and we had personality with us it was a must be representative of all of the things that mike and i like to that we thought were really culture shifting moments that were personal moments in like a picture of him and his wife and his kids with a

picture of when we were all at the white house and when obama was there and this was a great awesome story, i will always tell we have pictures of biggie. >> black people that is a start to roland, no pretend you were there. >> but you was in the whitey house. [inaudible]. >> and so we had all of these moments on the ball in the personality created for our show and one of the first things they did, but they wanted to get rid of the personality will not because of the picture biggie or not because the picture mike and his kids are me and detroit selling rugs from it was the obama picture that they wanted to get rid of because at this point espn was in the crosshairs of being considered to political into liberal and what is going on there and all of those chaos ages that brought that t narrate about espn, which is never been

told but they were during this time and it was the faces of the network started to change. smith was becoming live face of the network andve mike and i hae her own show and you have others. >> so what you are experiencing, was white fear. >> enter in the book and that is what it is. >> oh my god, what is going on in the world is ending and where did all of our people go. >> they couldn't handlet. it. >> is real and what we are talking about is real they could not handle it and even though it was very obvious that the people who work accusing espn doing this foror only doing that becae the faces change and it was not while they acted like every night on sports and we would talk about immigration performance and reform we were never doing that it was a special but you had is leaking out and consult the narrative about not being

about sports and black people being too political one thing i learned a new this before and i never really experiences until i was joining the espn sports center, people consider you just being black and showing up in tv as being a political act. and that's it. >> it is typically a political acted like i did was come to work and get into the employee line and again representing some states with about america because it's the fear they see the change. >> an assault like you're in the crosshairs, he throw that in his wealth, so you were sitting here will know. >> is still an intricate part. >> will the rally is, that even the idea of black women wearing natural here are wearing braids is really one television like last two or three year. >> while mike was wearing jordan's on the her like we have

pictures and video in the back like were comingin in here back this week wanted are sportscenter to be. >> but this was no' your first run in with a clueless white boss. >> no, i have had many of them. [laughter] >> talk about the be mama and how you then almost got you run out of orlando. >> it is true. will i give the ticker at the end so one of the stories until in orlando as i was a columnist forr the orlando sentinel i got it when i was 28 years old and orlando. >> the only black female sports columnist in the country, only female. >> no, really black female sports columnist at apa daily newspaper in north america, not just america.

>> well theyno are clapping but you are not happy. >> no no because that's embarrassing like that's a big indictment of the profession that i chose to be a part of it i was why one of the chapters is named that so we get to the sentinel and 28 years old i had to figure out how to have a voice and structure: things because i hador not been a columnist before but anyway when i was created a series called writing with and in orlando different credit sports that i was accustomed to it when i was in detroit they had all of the major sports of the pistons and tigers liens and unfortunately i said for me. >> i knew she was going to make allies and she's 49ers and she brought everything into detroit to the liens. >> wealth michigan and michigan state, it is a row best college. >> even though your michigan

state. >> will looku aml, i'm just saying, and we are in the same boat. >> we are liens. >> it is okay. >> we are ready. >> so being in orlando, it was a one sport profession down the onl' had orlando and when college football season was over, because you had miami and all that and when the seasons are done, i came up with a series and we just given to the car with the athletes and i asked questions are brought up k q&a and we are done and you know, they are due in every week in the summertime, so the first

one that i do is with a player in willis who was at miami, second or third round pick and he suffered a very gruesome knee injury and miami ohio. >> sure top ten pick. >> yes he was in that incident happened and he slidd a bit but he still had a productive nfl career is the first person to interview my god heather, i've got interview and me, despite the fact that people like to perceive me as being very serious all of the time, i am silly printed so i am in the car with willis he is brand-new bmw and i know he is a couple of kids with a couple of different women and i asked him, jokingly, what is a baby mama or ex-wife what is worse. [laughter] >> anybody watching the video, answer the question. [laughter] [laughter] >> i felt like i was getting to the truth of something and willis starts going on through

that baby mamas and he knee said they want to miss time and money and everybody's watching. and they can related so he says all of this and it runs any goes viral, for 2006, all these blogs get up and it's great traffic for the site. >> and you can call from karen. >> and then. [laughter] [laughter] >> and there was one person he was very unhappy about this and charlotte the executive editor of the orlando times and she cannot believe that we put the word baby mama and print. >> i'' just checking i have to ask these questions. >> that's true, no she didn't look right. >> will she could be clarence thomas will go ahead i'm sorry. [laughter] [laughter] >> that's true that's p a point. >> i can be real. >> that is it fair pointed so

she did not look like us and she kind of looked like her husband might've been a founding father but that's okay. but charlotte and since had never heard of the term baby mama is the mid to thousands. >> the mid to thousands and so it is very much in time of like how we talking actually where and i said okay, and she was like well and going to a letter in your file g suspended my editor for like aju day which is crazy, just over baby mama. and she was not having it. solenoid bosses saidd listen, just make this go away and she's overreacting and just apologize and it did not want to apologize but it also like to eat and so i said,as i will do this but as sn as i did i did not feel good or write about hit and i'm thinking

to myself at the time, i will never again apologize for something that i knowut that i'm right about that. [applause] [applause] >> and here is the kicker, it is that there was a black executive at espn is on the story and because it went viral the same black executive who happen to know a friend of mine set up a meeting for me and ps our mutual friend which i didn't realize we had he asked to set up a dinner meeting in orlando really wanted meet your woman it without because that i was young the fact. >> is a receptor meeting and he was like you know, we have a sports columnist opening here and because there's a guy who is leaving the call in writing responsibilities and is going to be television full-time and i in yourve to bring voice. so it is a lesson in this, is that one karen,. [laughter] [laughter]

then objection getting to a job so ith got the job and that's hw i wound up at espn. >> and so how did you leave. >> so is funny because well you would've probably. >> oh, i would've been real. >> i know. >> i would've said baby mamas and all of them and. >> i know how you do and i would've been stepping outside. >> i would have designed the job on juneteenth and left on july 4th and yes, i did. and i was a like freedom. >> wire you like this. [laughter] [laughter] >> it lined up perfectly. >> no i do not see quite like that but here's the funny thing, and of the story telling here

and so i go off to interview and you know, in believe in kicking it just i was like hey just so you know, i am going off to interview espn and so i go out and while i i am there, news breaks that this is a new espn, totally different world than what i was accustomed to in the news breaks on as was media blog that i am interviewing out of that i had agreed to go to espn but i was making $200,000 year and i said that was news to me and while i was interviewing of that literally happened in my manager was calling me like what isi the story i was like, i hae no idea. somebody lead to the story but it is what it is but you know long story short i did not make $200,000 a year by the way, much less than that pretty home my boss said that there understood that espn was a current and the expected me tody

stay at the sentinel i don't even think i received a counteroffer, they were in a new like unit chance gives to some place likert that, you have to take that opportunity. >> of course. >> of course. >> but what i love about the book, i love that you name names and you did not use all last names, was karen same, you put the whole book in her name in the book. but other folks, you use just for seems like you said henry to go - himself and so y'all will typically when you see these interviews they people literally retype the whol' book and i don't to do that just by the book. you're not going to get no freebies and give all of the good stuff then you don't buy the book is not going to happen happen and first off, i was laughing and i had to go back and read it two more times to make sure and you did not hold

back. and what is the most likely that you came too the studio in chicago and i don't read fiction i read your book. any said well, you can actually tell the truth more with fiction than you canon with nonfiction. and he said because you can just say, this is made up when you're really really quit is really really true. [laughter] [laughter] >> so when you weree writing this, how did you because very open it but a bunch of stuff dealing with you come a lot of stuff with your mama and your grandmother. and so how do you not feel sinister or was it something that you said that i cannot with this. >> i pulled a couple of punches and the reason that it is because the thing about when you write a memoir and maybe real people, so in thiske case, like you mentioned henry and then

when i talked about my abortion i purposely didna not name so i just gave him a different name because the one thing that i wanted to be very careful and intentional about is like i'm not going to tell somebody else's were especially if i don't know if they've actually told the story and so henry just a y'all know and i want to give awaybe too much, because i want you to buy the book, but my mother was having a relationship with henry hand i don't know if you still married or whatever you know, i'm not mentioning him. i don't know what his situation is, all i know is. >> former professional football players. [inaudible]. >> you never know. >> oh heck no. >> will the one thing that i did tell about how awkward was when ofce his relatives shuts me on facebook and i was like, your

dad clearly has not open up. clearly, okay well anyway. the story for bravo. the difference with memoirs is writing about real people if you about what is these relationships look like after the book is done and so the one that i was most of the tube and i was most sensitive to work my mother obviously and to my husband because i certainly wanted to make sure there was nothing in there that he didn't know that he was surprised by because you could tell about your past and your stories but you may not go into the same detail that you would in a book or you just might not think about who these do these details matter i wanted be very cognitive over that part. and what dof you think about the readers and thinking as a

journalist and you know how much transparency is really the foundation of our profession and what what iwh look like considering the journalist i try to be being authentic with the audience and so i was just going to lay it all out there and let everybody make their own decisions and that the materials do what its was supposed to do. but i wasg going to do this she people out of understanding the fulli scope of who i was because how many celebrity memoirs he read if you want to put me in the category where you have the sense that they are not telling you everything i do not want people to leave with that for theh read this book. >> absolutely which i thank you so important because authenticity actually is what makes it actually the audience would also be in place today ado lot of folks, actually do that.

looking at what you did talk about growing up and how you grew up. moving different places and what your mother experienced as well you really deal with that trauma and how it still is present today and have a lotta folks do do not take the time to really sit down and go through what you actually go through and have heather having an impact on me and talk about my that is so critical to understand your past to a better understanding of who you are in the present and how you could be better person in the future. >> living is just like history, the way that you don't repeat it is if you actually know what happened and you understand why it happened and a lot of this with generational trauma and the only way that they can be broken i believe is if you are very open about what that trauma is in about what happened in your family or in your relationship

those dynamics we have to be honest about what isab going on which you are honest about who, you can actually address it and we know as in our community, what is one of the cardinal rules that we heard, ring up roland, he was what happens in this house, stays in this house and sometimes, a lot of times, it is not good for it to stay in the house read and considering the amount of abuse, that my mother suffered, and the issues my mother and grandmother had another people my family that ii talk about, if they had just been able to service in a way that they could deal with it, it would've impacted generations in our family and they did not do that and because of that, there was a scar at a line that went from my grandmother, myy mother, right to me because of the inability to address these horrors that happened.

... mother told her that she had dealt with depression her whole life. and i was like, what in the hell? didn't you say anything? she says, here i am in my fifties and i've been dealing with this -- my entire life, and you never said a word and she said, well, i just kept it to myself. and she said, all of these years i've been trying to figure out what is wrong with me. and and she was angry, just like we've had look that in lot of our families, folks who have had illnesses don't say anything. and then it so it shows up later. in fact in fact, i was deion sanders when he when he had had his leg surgery. correct. deion was checked out because of blood clots. he it was when his his mama said, oh, you know, your uncle and so on. so he was like, how the hell all the people in the family got blood clots and nobody said anything. i know. he said, don't you remember the plot? what i say, your family history, your family, when you go to the doctor, they do your book, your family history, correct? for many of us, we leave it empty. oh, no. because a lot of times some of

the older people that we know, our elders, they have been through such pain. they don't like to speak to it. and that's why one of the things i want you all to take away from reading this book is while your people are here, ask them about their lives, even if it makes them wildly uncomfortable. all and as i was this of the many thoughts that i had, one of them was how much i really miss my grandmother. my grandmother was born in 1929. i don't think i ever asked her what it was like to grow up in segregation. nothing i ever asked her about. she told me some stories about what it was like to grow up in kentucky as she went from kentucky to west virginia and eventually the family moved to detroit and settled in a city just outside of detroit called ecorse, but i never asked her about that pathway. i you know, a grandmother who, by the way, you write was brilliant, brilliant. she was a dj. you know, she was a big mama, you know. and so the thing was, is that it was so much i didn't know.

i mean, her mother, who's who's middle name, whose first name i have is a middle name. this made me so curious going in this journal that i had gone through this journey with writing this book that of course, i went to ancestry. i'm looking up document. i did not know my great grandmother was married in 58. i had no idea i had that made me understand why when my mother when my grandmother lost her mother when she was a teenager, some of the emotional trauma she was carrying because she was still grieving and she didn't know it or she knew it. but there was just no time for it. look, resilience, seem, resolve, all those things are great qualities. i know when people say especially about black women, you a strong black woman, they mean it as a compliment. the thing is, it's also debilitating. yep. there are some things we are just not meant to handle. right? you what? i mean, it's just some things that we. we shouldn't have to absorb. but we're told this time and time again, we're lauded for our strength right?

of getting through things. sometimes we need to sit in things. i actually heal from it. i see on my show a lot. i'm sick and tired of having and i've had this conversation within the context of hbcu's, of our black organizations. i said, i'm tired of having surviving. i said, i want to be having a thriving conversation. and it's just like any time you see these conversations where single mothers come happens and somebody brings it up and then somebody in beverly stands up, now wait a minute. my mama was a single mother and blah, blah, blah. and the impulse get defensive then like, well, no, i don't really mean that. and it happened even once. i was like, no, i'm not willing to stay right here. first of all, ask your mama if she actually wanted to be a single mom. exactly. i said, you can stay here. talk to me. all how's my mom was strong. i said, i met the few people who will make a proactive decision. i want to raise a child. i love this. like i said, you can about how strong she was. i guarantee you that sometimes

she was in that -- room crying and in pain. i said, so i say, we got to stop sitting here and letting that become the norm. right. and deal with the reality of that. that ain't easy. yeah, i'm glad you said that, roland, because i do think that for black women, especially being resilient, fighting through taking whatever punishment people decide to give us has become the norm, that we're not defined by what we achieve were defined by what we withstand. and there's a difference in that. and i, i just realized that, you know, with all the resiliency, the women in my family have had, there was so much pain there. and i wanted to be an active part in just stopping that. like, we got to turn the page on this. we have to be different with how we handle these things so that was, you know, to go back to something you asked me a couple questions ago, that was a big driving force behind writing

this. one of the things that i want to get into is the notion of fun. there are people out there who have this assumption that when you are a journalist and you're covering these major issues, that you know, you have to do this here. and i remember we were at i guess this was in a b.j. may have been in miami. you and i were talking on stage. no, wait. time out. time time. i was at this. how rumors get started rolling. we were dancing on. stage were dancing. we were talking. you know why i worth what. i feel i start talking. well, i just said you were start. i mean they are levels to talking there's bad twerking good twerking, great twerking. i'm no i didn't want to sign one. i just say to which i said i'm literally whitney houston. i'm the black girl with no rhythm that is me. okay. so we see the dance and folks were sitting there tripping on social media and i was like, yo, you do understand is call a

hashtag and live life. love it. and people act as if you have to. you have to be just locked in this persona that you can't not have. i can tell a lot. yeah, you got one life. you got to live this thing. yeah, it ain't our word now. well, actually, i thought what you going to say is. is 2018 nabj? when i was journalists of the year, by the way, an award rolling one before and was he's one of the ogs of nabj. and so i remember us being on stage in detroit as well. really. you always onstage. that was the common denominator. hey, hey, look, anybody got swagger? some folk got to be onstage. some people got to be down there a roland is on the stage. i nabj, you know, the party is really jumping. and so we had it. we had a blast. but i know i've told people this before is that i know people have seen me in a very serious light. they are looking at, you know, oh, the donald trump thing and

all that other kind of stuff. but i'm like, i may not like that fine line up. i like to start up like i do a lot of the same things that a lot of other people do. but it's an important part of a release for professional where we're constantly bombarded with sometimes the most terrifying information we have to put in the context for people. so us. so we're all just on your podcast and you asked me this question, so i want you to speak to this and that is when in fact that was one of the questions too that came here. when young journalists come up to you and i want you to answer, you are i know my answer was on your podcast. i don't know when it's going to air, but i just went in when when a young folks young just what do you say jamila i want to do what you do you're what do you how do you respond to that? oh, really? you had an amazing answer. and when i say when they asked me that, i said, well, there's already one me you need to be the best. you you don't need and say and and sometimes what happens too

is that young journalists understandably so, they're impressed by the platform you have, by the spotlight. you've been able to get. and that's, you know, part of the journey. but i also tell them that, you know, i love this job. now, just as much as i did when i was working for the last two state journal and making $30, sustaining it like that's what it is. it's like if you are only in journalism, especially for the things is it can give you, you're going to be broke. oh yeah you yeah you ain't going. that's not going. that's not going to work. that was a kobe bryant video that was posted recently. i reposted where he talked about love. he said, you got he said it's the love of basketball. he said, when you love basketball, he said, that's the driving piece and that's it. signing up. people come up to me and say, man, i see you. you pack in gear. and i'm like, yeah, because we've got to get the hell out of here. if help pack, move faster. but also i own it. yeah, but the thing is that when you love your craft, you're you

want that shot, you want that like you you want to write that lead a certain way. that's the love is it ain't the money. it's not being recognized in airport really. you know this as well as i do when you think about it, when you were first getting into journalism, what did you hear about the salaries that journalists made? oh, they say a point blank. you're going to be making 12,014. it was 19,000 when i graduated. where i graduated. when you graduate in 97, i agreed. so i said, okay, you graduate in 97 it was 19,000. i. graduated 1991. they asked american states, statesmen offered me 20,000, 100. i told him no, you've got to pay me at least two grand more to i did it and to like and in fact the interesting thing is so knight-ridder, of course, one of the big chains, vice president bill was a great guy. he's i really think got to work for a paper and break in in florida. and i was like, well, so circulation and i knew the money

used to circulate. and that was right there about 14, 15. i said, say, bill paper. i said, bill, that paper too small. and he was like, i'm sorry, we're we're we're too small. i was like, as a year on my skill set, that's somebody who ain't got my skills. i'm a no no, no. because when, when, you know, because that can lead to my next question, which is understanding your value, correct. so and when i got promoted three times the first 18 months and went from 20,000, 34,000 as a bill, i tried to tell you that was too -- small. but you said respect. you know what i was i a similar story that that i discussed obviously in the book is when so the news and it was our rally was my last internship and i went there because they had this track record of hiring interns and it was another writer on a staff who was in sports. he was like, yeah, they kept me as an intern for 11 months. i was like, 11 months. i was like, oh, hell no.

i was. i am not about the beat is 11 month entire because they can keep you at an intern salary which i believe was for 19 a week. and i was like, i can't do that. and but you say it. you couldn't do it because. you knew what your skill set was, correct. all the work you put in. yes, it wasn't like you were just saying that and you were scrolling. no, and out. and i wasn't going to have the. i'm just happy to be in a building mentality. i say, okay, what will force their hands? so they extended my internship as i expected and they extended it. i said, cool, i know i'm a be here another three months. i'm going to find another job. so i started sending my clips out to everywhere else. the savannah morning news. they had an opening at their paper and it was paying more than what i was making at that point. i went down there, i interviewed really like the people there. i was like, oh yeah, i could live here because if i'm gonna go chase it down on the chase one that if it all goes to hell and negotiation, i'm going to take the job. they sent in the offer. i came back to raleigh and i said, hey, they offering me this

job still that is $21,000 a year raised and you're like, oh, oh. they were totally shocked that i did that. and so then they came back. then the savannah morning news came back and next thing you know, much like you i did all you like what you got. what you got oh, you got you got it much like that you did all that for an additional 30 $500 my salary. hey, 30 $500 heading but the whole point was it was about setting a tone. right right. to let them know that you just can't do me any kind of way. i know my i know my worth. i have a different kind of skill set, and i'm sure you know, i thank the dude that told me did he had 11 months. i was like, man, you changed my whole perspective. and the other thing that happened that was very critical in that time. speaking of negotiating power, but not just knowing your worth, you also have to know your development as well. as i mentioned it, your sports illustrated was my dream job.

so after i gotten the job and i'm a few months into this, sports illustrated comes calling because there was a friend, an established while i was on the road in terms like covering women's basketball, the stuff she she saw my clip packet because what happens is when is the ncaa tournament all the pr people for the schools and the tournament they put out a huge clip packet because if you go to a tournament, it might be two or three teams there that you've never seen play. so they put out this anonymous clip packet for journalists so they can read the stories that have been written about the team all season. some of my stories were in there that were written about a team that was, you know, really ascending. it was the north carolina women's basketball team. she took that. she saw those clips. love them, and sent them to the editor at sports illustrated because she worked for sports illustrated and she was covering women's college basketball. sports illustrated called me. they had a opening to be a writer reporter in new york working for sports illustrated. now, i know this job sounds very glamorous, but here with the

details of this job is that essentially, you fact check the articles that are in sports illustrated. and if you are, you know, if you are motivated enough, if you are driven enough and you pitch them stories and they decide to run it and, you know, you can report on it, maybe that could happen. so i'm looking you know, i've been reading sports illustrated for years, and i know all none of those writers came from the writer reporter track. and i'm like, hey, okay, well, i'll go to new york. i had never been to new york city. they put me up is great. and i get the job. they offered me the job at the end of the interview and the interview i think the job was paying $42,000 a year to live in new york city. so basically i would have been sleeping on the subway car unless i wanted a apartment with 12 roommates. right. i was like, what? that math method. but it was sports illustrated. this is my dream job and, you know, i thought about it. i would said, okay, let me think

about it. you know, let me figure out what i want to do. and i'm like, let me get this straight. i'm writing basically every day at the news and observer. i've already won the state press association award for best sports feature for a story i did on the citadel's first female athlete. i am able to pretty much write what i want and whenever i want and i have to go to sports illustrate to get the sports illustrated. i have to fact check somebody stories that aren't mine. and maybe if i'm lucky, if the leprechaun is shining on me in the right, i might get a byline in sports illustrated at some point. and i said, can't do it right. cannot do it. and so i told the. so you weren't all focused on what sports show? because a lot of you mentioned about younger journalists, a lot of younger journalism. and i was just a young people and period, regardless of industry you are think bigger is always better though if they're not going to develop you if what want to do there if you look and see who does those same things

and none of them are in the position they're trying to bring you in on maybe you need to rethink something else because at espn, for example, there was a lot of production assistants that were really unhappy because they wanted to be on air, go somewhere, making $10,000 to be on air every day because guess what? nobody on the air right. was a production assistant. they all came from somebody else. hello. right. they all came from someplace else. so like you're just setting yourself up to fail. so i was not going to be the person about sports illustrated not writing, fact checking just to say i was at sports illustrated, so i turned them down and i told of that and i'll never forget the the editor in charge of these positions told me, he said, i actually think that was a good decision. he said, we can afford you now. i have a feeling we will not be of be able to afford you later. and they had to bounce. and i was like, not so i stayed in raleigh. and then my next job at the free press, i got a $25,000 pay raise. it was every day to live in

lansing, michigan, and it's like, oh, cost of living was in there. and i was all i do. i do love being penny oh, no, no, no, no. because i love when somebody in your past who who said you were not accomplished certain things you wouldn't you wouldn't go so so many places, you know and i have no problem remaining finding those folks of that. i mean, i did hit a couple of people when i got into the nabj hall of fame in december and then saturday, when i go into the saturn fisher journalists hall of fame, i've hit some folk like remember when, you know, i've been real petty so for you. but in but it's a driving thing if you want it if you want to understand the king of pity, watch michael jordan's hall of fame. oh, yeah. people were mad. i was like, that's the kind of speech my given. so for you is that wanted to folk in your life where when you

look at the stuff you do now with your podcast of the atlantic and produce and the stuff you doing with lebron, all of four things you sitting there going i told joel, i told you so. i mean, here's the thing there. there's going to be people like that littered throughout your career, but there is i mean, there are a couple of people that, you know, i know that, especially when i got my columnist job in orlando, that they really hated on me and hated on me, that my boss, on top of that, they didn't even work at the orlando sentinel. but i'm a deeper level than petty, because then the extra petty part of me can't even give you the acknowledgment that you did that, because i know it would be it would be oxygen to them and i can't do it. so i won't. i want them breathing. yeah, i want you like i want to breathe in the hey i want them breathe. and i was like, i can't do it though along like i my spirit will never let me allow my

spirit to never let me platform somebody who just ain't important to me. it just i just they just not important. oh no, they're not important. yeah. you know, i'm gonna tell you off air when i tell you how it is. so you see you all follow the nice c nice and not name sorry i just every time you said my career i want jeff braun watch it. yeah he. name the first and the last. roland, do you know what middle name i mean? jeff brown was a news director at kb tex and bryan college station, texas. and they had i was an intern and they had a sports weekend sports anchor job open up in vermont with the communications high schools. i'm already far above straight up one. his friends came to me, said he is not going to heart he will not hire black men in came to me and told me that i mean i was like, you know, hell, i'm staying here. and i met fred when i was on the team cover, the republican national convention. the austin american-statesman is only out of college seven months. i ran into him like, what up, jeff? what are you doing here? come republican national

convention, just graduate it. so every time something happens. jeff, bryan, we are union and then give this relic no field work. oh, no, no. but i'll do notice the first names when rolling writing his memoir. i'm putting middle names, last names. this the address. this way you can find it. but here's the thing. you know, i'm definitely one of those keep that same energy right? so trust me when i tell you, if i saw this person in public rolling, keep your location all because i might be bail money. oh, i just know that if i see them in person a no problem is oh oh. like i'm waiting for the confrontation to text me. i'm a text. i'm like roland is about to go down. have you told him hello to mail? oh, i knew it. special from jail for roland martin until ten oh oh absolutely. don't worry about i know enough attorney general's in virginia

in no time in jail. your people get to how you. but that's it unfortunately are all they gave us was an hour. time is up. you should get jamal hill's book uphill. it's absolutely a fascinating book. it is an easy read. and let me say right now some of my easy means in our business writing is about rhythm. and when you read, you should be thinking the same way with music. and so you're reading a book, it's just flow. and so you can just go from one page to the next, you could knock it out in two or three days because in flows like that and so other books likes to coddle you like this is get me a headache. i read a peggy noonan book. it took me about three years to finish that book and by the way, i would say the same about roland's book wife here, because when i had you on the podcast, i mean, i probably read that in maybe two and a half days like it was it was a very good read, very to the point. and most importantly now, as we are thinking about pretty much our democracy dying right in

front of us is a very important, a crucial. absolutely. and so they give you a book that i'm so saying, you know, pretty young color called brother back and come back, eddie. i mean, you got a little pool. i'm just sam. eddie, is your lecture series. you gave the money, eddie? oh, i go to hang out problems go here and put it out to the audiences because we think that souls are real. that is it. put your hands together for jemele hill. thank