>> "washington journal" continues. host: we will talk about taxes.

we are joined by erin collins, the national taxpayer advocate. we will talk about that and your organization's report to congress. talk about the role you play with the irs. guest: our office is a creation of congress and over 20 years ago, congress wanted to give taxpayers help. they created the position within the irs, although we are an independent division. we have a couple missions. once a year, we file our annual report to congress and the statute requires us to identify 10 problems of taxpayer rights. we get the opportunity to make

legislative legislation so congress can fix the tax laws. the other hat we where is we work with taxpayers one on one, where they have problems with the irs and they could come to our local offices and we work with them as an advocate to fix problems for the taxpayers. host: i want to dive into that. your primary clientele is the american public in terms of advocating for the things they need solved or resolved. guest: that is correct and we do it on a systemic basis. these last three years, it has been difficult for taxpayers so there are problems impacting millions of taxpayers and we do it one on one with taxpayers. we have 77 offices through the u.s. if a taxpayer has an issue where they cannot fix it with the irs, we are the safety net.

host: are those offices, separate, from the irs office or in the same building? guest: in the same building that we have separate office space and we have our own separate system so it is an unusual thing to have a division independent inside the agency but that is what we do. host: you mentioned how tough the years have been and this is a job you came into a couple years ago for yourself. guest: i came in march of 2020 as covid was spiking. i was kind of saying, is it something i did? the irs was shut down across the country for a number of months and that is what impacted the season. host: what was the biggest

challenge? guest: the hardest thing, any time you step into a leadership role is getting to know your people and at that point, 100% of my employees were working more -- probably and i had to establish a relation with my employees and the irs executives. they were out of the building so it was difficult the first couple of months trying to bring in a loop -- a new leadership style. host: you report to congress, the annual report, released and the top line from that report says " last year, i reported in the covid-19 pandemic, has been the most challenging that taxpayers and tax professionals have faced. the bad news is t have experienre mery in022 and the good news is since the close of the 2022 fire rg --

filing season, we have made progress in filling correspondence." what has been the biggest factor in getting that backlog resolved? guest: it started when the irs shut down march of 2020 and in june and july, they brought employees back but when you think about the amount of paperwork the irs processes come out when you shut down and they have the mailboxes sitting in tractor-trailers, it takes some tile -- time to get started up. as they were trying to work down the backlog, the new returns were coming in the door and the end of that first year, they had over 17 million returns carrying over to the next year and that

is a high number. last year was a little reduced and this year, we are looking between 12 and 15 million carrying into 2023 that has to be worked on. looking -- host: looking at the backlog of 2020 january, a year ago, 4.7 million returns and 3.2 million business returns and 3.6 amended returns and december, we went to 400 thousand individual returns and one million business returns. what are you doing in advance to monitor the backlog situation? guest: the birth with the irs on a daily basis and working -- we work with the irs on a daily basis. we have access to irs data and irs employees.

we are active trying to identify and make recommendations to work with the irs. host: i guess is erin collins, the national taxpayer advocate -- our guest is erin collins of the national taxpayer advocate. (202) 748-8000 if you are in big east or central time zones. (202) 748-8001 or mountain and specific -- ford mountain and pacific --for mountain and pacific. guest: the last three years, it is opposite. the irs has had such a backlog, when you look at this to six, somewhere between 60 and 75% where taxpayers get refund so the irs is 6-9 months behind

processing those returns, rather -- whether it is the original and -- or amended returns and people are not getting the refunds and there are people who build their roles -- those breeze -- the refunds into their budgets. host: do you think it is a benefit for people when they do that, when they prepare their taxes for the next year, to budget in that refund or in advance, getting more money ahead in their paycheck? guest: if you go to most financial advisors, they will tell you to have your withholding as close to making your payment so you are as that -- are not as dependent on the refund. some people look as -- added as a savings account. it has been more like june through november and they look

at, that is their family vacation or a down payment for a car. they look at it as a savings account so people look at it different we but at -- advisors will tell you to have the smallest refund possible but a lot of refunds are credits and those are not things you plan in advance. we have the stimulus payment so there are a lot of credits -- earned income tax credit that you only receive when you file. host: will there be new credits we should look for this current tax year for 2022? guest: there is a chance that congress will legislate -- host: something retroactive? guest: retroactive is not common but it is a challenge but we have been vocal that if you are going to initiate legislation, it is not wise to do it in a middle of a tax filing season because that looks -- puts a lot of challenges on the irs and

when you are in the midst of processing returns, having new legislation makes it difficult. host: you mentioned processing -- delays. i want to go to your report. telephone and in-person service, we talked about that. online access to taxpayers. and tax professionals. e-file. irs transparency. return oversight, the appeals of overseas taxpayers. lots. and we appreciate your comment and welcome your comments and questions for erin collins. (202) 748-8000, east and central time zones. (202) 748-8001 mountain and pacific. but go to houston, texas. -- let's go to houston, texas.

caller: i had a question specifically related to how the irs or state majorities and those multistate walkers, especially in the light of this working environment. my situation, i work for a company based out of chicago over annoying while -- and living in houston, texas. what is the expectation in terms of my residency and working in -- out-of-state? host: your question -- guest: your question is not alone. for purposes of the federal side, it is not the same issue as the state side. i will plant --punt.

we have 50 states. they all have different rules. that -- you have to look at the various states but i suspect all the states are trying to texel -- tackle this. do you pay your taxes with texas or the other state you are talking about -- illinois. a lot of states are trying to figure out where is your residency and where is your place of employment? what are the requirements? host: with more people working remotely and setting up offices, are you seeing more questions about how can i deduct this as office space? guest: a lot of people will look at, as an employee, you have a different ability to deduct things. that will be a question. are you entitled to a home office? how do you deduct that?

the irs is trying to standardize those but if you're working at home, you need to look at what are the advantages, that you might be able to deduct. host: let's hear from -- before i do that, how do people contact your office? guest: if you go on to -- we have a separate area within the irs website. it -- there is a section on who to calm -- contact or where to contact and it will pull up the different states and local members of various offices. -- numbers of various offices. host: mary in potomac, maryland. caller: in discussing the debt ceiling problems, bear are

considering -- social security and medicare. how likely is it that that can happen and social security can go through and how is that they are not speaking about the rich paying their fair share of taxes. and also, major corporations, they are making windfall profits, taking advantage of the covid situation, and getting by with all those profits while the social security the majority of people -- security, the majority of people, who benefit, after putting down money in defined to begin with, it is possible -- what is the likelihood of that? host: a more political question

for you. guest: that is something be irs, -- the irs, cannot deal with. prs administers the law and the irs can do a better job collecting. that has been an issue that has been raised over the last couple years, if you look at the outstanding obligations and there are a lot of larger individuals who have -- they have filed returns reflecting they owe x dollars but they have not paid so that is the irs can do better with. with respect to the rest of the question, i don't control congress and i cannot tell them what to do with respect to social security but we can make suggestions and we push that our number one concern is protecting taxpayer rights and do it. -- do it fairly. host: the house passed a bill

that expanded the additional funding by the administration, or $80,000 -- 80,000 irs employees and potentially those employees have gone to your your effort -- to your effort. guest: that legislation, the good news is they left a portion for service and modernization. those things are key to the success up -- of taxpayers to have a working tax demonstration. brs needs to rebuild itself so that is the part we focus on, the service and modernization and in respect to enforcement, our biggest concern that the -- is that the irs do it fair -- fairly. host: n/a texas, good morning -- in texas, good morning. caller: this is bob.

i have been trying to get in touch with the irs. i mailed my information to them in april 10. i have not heard a word on my refund. i am trying to find out who i can contact and every time they call them -- i called them, they hang up on me. any information from you? host: your situation is ideal from getting help from -- for getting help from my office. you can go to my website and look at the section on who to contact or where to contact or where we are located. once you go in there, find the city and state nearest to you and contact them. there is a fax number and a telephone number and they should be able to assist you. if you filed your return in april and have not heard

anything, i suspect there is an issue in processing. there could be something in the problem of the return or it has been tagged as potential identity theft, in which case, you need to let the irs know that it is you and you filed the return so reach out the local -- to be local offices -- the local office. host: here is the text from washington dc, saying -- guest: that might be something you could reach out to our office so we have a office -- an office in d.c.. you can see if we can help intervene. host: to darren in florida. you're on the air, go ahead.

caller: you are an american patriot. i am a ceo of a major corporation with 30,000 employees. worldwide. i think, we have to preserve social security for everyone who paid into it and i also believe that, it is not a savings account, it is a guaranteed account. i cannot begin to tell you how much you touch my soul because i have been fighting for this for a long time. host: pat is up next in all have -- in ohio. caller: my question is, why it is the tax code so cumbersome -- why is the text so so cumbersome

and drawn out -- tax code so cumbersome and drawn out. guest: that is a question i have. when do you look at the tax code and if you pile it up, it is probably a good 6-8 inches when you look at the various code sections. it is extremely complex and the challenge taxpayers and tax professionals have is trying to understand the consequences and how the code applies. you are not the only one in this position and we looked at that as a serious challenge for taxpayers as to how do you apply with the law? how do you even comprehend all the changes and there is a lot in there. even tax professionals struggle with it. host: you talked about the technological challenges the irs has an you mentioned the amount

of paperwork. it seems there is a lot of paperwork involved in filing taxes. even the simplest 1040 form. guest: it is a lot of paper and last year, i went to a campus city. i give the employees huge kudos that they go into the office and worked because when you walk in, there are mounds of paper, so much paper that has been backed up, it fills the hallways and cafeterias and conference rooms. walking into the campus, knowing you are chipping away at the pile and today is the kickoff of the 2023 filing fees until new returns will come through the door. it is a difficult position and we have technical issues. they need to move towards a paperless environment. whether it be more e-filing, or

if it comes through the door, they can scan it electronically. host: we will hear from kathleen. caller: i love e-filing but that is my point. i point is the roth ira. -- my point is the roth ira. the secure act meant the congress could diminish the roth ira payoff. what teachers are able to do to do long-term planning and long-term saving and middle-class families who have roth iras and want to leave to their children and great-grandchildren, the secure act is so damaging. my specific question is not answered by my legislator and my senators, minnesota, legislator

and senators have no interest in answering the question up what must the ira forms being so the roth ira -- for a disadvantage grand time -- grandchild who have a long-term payoff, whether it is the form, or the standard, is any of it set question -- set? messy and mean and it is hard on teachers and long-term planners. very cruel. guest: that is partly due to the legislation -- host: the bill passed last year. guest: how do you implement the changes? it sounds like you are not happy with the changes and it sounds like -- i think you are not alone but irs.gov is a place to start.

i will have one of my folks looking at, when -- can we assist in getting better guidance on a website so thank you for the suggestion. host: when something like that passes in congress, the skirt act or other legislation that affects texas -- secure act or other legislation that affects texas --taxes, how quickly are you briefed? guest: many legislators reach out to us. one of the biggest challenges the irs has, can you implement what changes are proposed? the more congress can communicate with the irs, and even practitioners, -- i wholeheartedly recommend that congress reach out and get comments from us. host: we are joined by erin

collins, a national taxpayer advocate and we welcome your questions and comments at (202) 748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001, that is the mountain and pacific line. kathy is up next. caller: thank you for taking my call. one thing i really want to comment on, and i have a question. they keep saying that these corporations are not paying their fair share. the tax code gives them the right to write off the expenses and other applicable deductions. if you change the code, then you will not have that issue, but that is up to the people that make the tax code. that is a misnomer.

my next thing is, is it true that the are your rest destroyed -- irs destroyed thousands of documents, and i keep hearing that all the time. if that is the case, what is involved and if they did that and the taxpayer has already disposed of their are you still liable to produce those returns again? guest: i believe you are making reference to which was very publicize that the irs shredded i think it was more like millions of 1099 forms after the texture -- tax year hadn't closed. i believe they thought they weren't necessary to enforce tax laws and move forward.

there are questions and people have been looking into it. i personally don't believe the irs should be destroying records unless they put it in an electronic format and uploaded it. that is an issue that has been debt and not a typical think the irs does. host: how long should we keep our tax records? guest: it depends. let's say you purchased a home and you have had it for 20 years and it was $200,000. certain home improvements increase the base which would decrease the amount of tax you have to pay. you held the home 20 years and you need 20 years of the to establish that. if it is just a w-2 wage earner with no other assets, typically three years is the time to hold your records at which point you can destroy them. a lot of people hold onto them just in case because you just never know.

it depends on what is on your return. host: question for dave in dalton, georgia says which group of taxpayers pays the most and least and which gets audited the least and most? guest: it depends. if you look at the high net worth individual, there are a lot of provisions in the tax code that give them ability to take certain deductions, so they may not pay as much compared to a lower income folks. with respect to the audits, unfortunately the two highest brackets of people being audited are those over 10 million and those under 50,000. that is a very odd dichotomy. if you are going to have audits, you need to be fair and do it evenly across the board or ramp up as income gets larger, rather than having the highest percentage of the low end.

host: do you do seasonable -- seasonal hiring for employees? guest: the irs used to have seasonal but with the challenges they are light that those who hire seasonal become full-time because there is no downtime that the irs. host: because of this backlog? guest: yes, it is not that they are just busy january to april, they are busy 12 months out of the year. host: we will go to karen in california. caller: i contacted the taxpayer advocacy office and was given a case number when my district would take me up to fresno. i am unable to contact them. every time i call, i received a message that tells me they will call me back.

i never received a call back. i called my congressman's office in my congressman told me i am supposed to send an amended tax return but i have no idea what i am supposed to do to amend my tax return. they are refusing to respond to me. the reason i called is because they denied processing that for me. they gave me an excuse that they thought maybe identity theft was involved. i got an answer before i went to the advocacy and the congressman's office, now that i have, i can no longer access anybody. i am told that, the record is

now through these two offices and the only way you can contact us is through these two offices, but then i can't contact because i am continually receiving a message missing -- machine. host: let's let erin collins respond. guest: i apologize if you haven't had an answer from our office. our office is inundated as well. that is no excuse why people haven't gotten back to you at all. this is exactly the type of situation a lot of people across the country are facing and one we should be able to help you. if you reach out to the local offices and go again to the website, it should list what we call a local taxpayer advocate that the head of the office. if you cannot get your case

agent or advocate to call you back, call ahead and elevate it up to my office so we can get you some help. i apologize for that we need to get you help. host: to bill in texas. go ahead. caller: yes, can ms. collins come to file my taxes? i don't have no one to help me with my taxes. it is 2020, 2021. can she help me? host: he is near san antonio. guest: we have offices, and the irs has a program they were per -- referred to as vita.

some of them will do it virtual. i would recommend you try to find your local vita organization, and they may be able to help you virtually so you don't have to leave your home. it would be easier for them to do with that way versus to come out to you. if you didn't file your taxes in 2021, you want to make sure you received your stimulus. reach out to those folks. host: next israel in saint -- next is ray in st. paul, minnesota. caller: my son filed his taxes for 2021, probably in february, and he never got a check back until november. i went so far as to call my state rep and got them working on it.

when i would call the irs, i couldn't get a hold of anybody. you would sit on the phone for three or four hours and nobody would answer and it says go to the website. you go to the website and all the things they prompt you to do, they say we can't help you. all i wanted to do was ask a question, did you get it? is there a problem on it? this has been going on for many years. i remember dealing with the irs 20 years ago, and you would sit on the phone and wait and wait. i don't the irs did a big computer upgrade, and that was probably 20 years ago. you get $21 billion a year just to take our money and you still can't get proper service. host: it seems like a lot of the

questions are just getting the phone answered. guest: that is why we talked about it in the annual report. the irs, a decade ago, was closer to the 60% to 70% range. pre-pandemic was 35% of phone calls answered which is incredibly low. during the pandemic, one out of every 10 calls were answered. there is huge frustration and i can hear it in the gentleman's voice. secretary yellen, at the inflation reduction act funds, has said that should be a number one priority and the goal should be closer to 80% of calls should be answered. it will not happen tomorrow. one is resources. if you look at the numbers, the irs would get 80 million to 100

million phone calls a year and they had enough customer service representatives. two years ago, it went up to 282 million, three times as many phone calls with fewer customer service professionals answering it. it is twice as much as it ever has been in the past. we have high volume because people have to have returns processed. it is eight revolving door until they process the paper, you will have more people calling. they have to get that resolved so we can get back to a lower level of incoming calls and increase the level of service. host: is there a partial solution less than the phone and a more robust presence online? this is how people are doing business. is that something the irs is looking towards? guest: yes, and that is

something i have been pushing since the day i got there. i spent 20 years in private practice and as a practitioner helping my clients, best thing for me would be to go online and get access to the data. we have been pushing pretty hard for what i call a robust online account. i do envision the irs is having equal or better in a financial institution. how many of us walk into a bank anymore? most of us do it online. i would like to see the irs, not only access records but get correspondence and respond and maybe chat with customer service through an online account. with this additional funding, i am hoping it comes to the top of the pile for prioritization. host: we will hear from troy calling from mount vernon, new york. caller: i am a tax professional

and i am talking about amended returns. a lot of clients move by the time the returns are processed. what are they going to do in the area? guest: i am sure you know this and knowing is easier than having your client to it, but if they move they need to contact the irs with the change of address. that is easier said than done. that is a challenge that by the time the irs gets around to processing since there is such a delay, a lot of times they have moved in the irs is not able to locate them and that is a real challenge and partially the taxpayer needs to notify the irs so they make sure it happens. they need to be more timely so we don't end up in that situation. host:, calling from somerset,

massachusetts -- tom, calling from somerset, massachusetts. caller: i have a question for you. i tried working by the mail with you guys. i went -- i have to pay additional tax and i sent a check and return by mail. i usually get it in early, before april, and down the road after april, i get a letter from you, from the irs and it tells me, if you don't send us your return, you didn't cash the check but i get from my bank

that shows it was processed. the process the check in you guys put the money into your account. and then the letter says if you don't find within a certain amount of time, your return will be disqualified, whatever, and that money will be like it's never existed. the letter says -- and the thing was, they never return that they got the check. host: they got your check? caller: they thought it -- they got it but it says they never got the return. guest: your situation is not uncommon. they may have the return sitting in one of those piles and haven't gotten around to processing it but the computer doesn't know it. the computer it sends out an automated generated letter saying don't have your return,

probably indicating they have the payment but it is a problem of the paper getting caught up with the computer and vice versa. last february the irs postponed or suspended those letters because it was very confusing to taxpayers. the computer has to stop sending letters until they get caught up. as of right now, all of those letters should be suspended. host: is the taxpayer better off making the initial filing online rather than sending in paperwork? guest: at all if you can, e-file is the last way to go. it will process weaker and less chance you will lose the paper somewhere, or more importantly the timeliness. host: in some areas of the country, there have been reported increases in mailbox theft. is the irs cognizant of that

being a potential issue for people who use those postal boxes to drop off their returns? guest: i think identity theft and thefts of payments and other things is a huge issue. you have a lot of personal information on those tax returns. i understand people being uncomfortable using electronic filing, but at the same time electronic filing is probably more secure in that sense. having paper going through various processing going to the post office to be received at the irs, they are both -- we all have concerns about security and it is huge issue. if you want to be secure and file electronically, you get proof that they have received it immediately. host: your calls are welcome, (202) 748-8000 for eastern and central, and (202) 748-8001 four mountain -- for mountain and

pacific. you also released your 2023 recommendations to strengthen taxpayer rights and improve tax administration. what are some of the top we should know about? guest: the purple book as we affectionately call it, a mix of red and blue, because we are trying to be nonpartisan in our recommendations, this goes directly for congressional recommendations to change the law. there are things that are minor. a different rule on timeliness than paper. with think it should have similar rules. one of the -- we think it should have similar rules. if you are owed money from the government, you are required to go to district court or claims court. that is a harder court for taxpayers to present themselves. about 70% to 80% of people who

go to tax court represent themselves, a high percentage. the text court is comfortable working pro se and have special procedures if the issue is less than $50,000, a much more informal procedure. district court and claims court is more formal. i would highly recommend you hire a lawyer if you have to go that route which makes it more expensive. a recommendation for congress we are making is consider giving tax court jurisdiction to hear refund cases so that the normal people, we can all go to tax court. for individuals, the tax is a lot better venue. host: are there tax court throughout the country? guest: the national is in d.c., but they go out across the country and they have what they

call "trial sessions." for something like los angeles or new york, two calendar sessions per month. some smaller areas like honolulu and alaska, one or two a year. host: sergio is up next in pompano beach, florida. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? host: fine, thank you. caller: good morning, ms. collins, how are you? guest: i am good. thank you. host: sergio, are you there? it looks like we lost you. we go to reach in marion, ohio. caller: what a great weight to solve a problem -- what a great way to solve problems. i know they are trying to get everyone electronic and everyone is not skilled. one thing that happened at the

post office, library, they stopped putting them in and you have to get what forms you need ahead of time. you can't walk down at the last minute. it forces over to e-filing which is the game that is going on to have the people do the work for them, which i understand, but it gets abusive. if we multiply the man hours, it is immense that we are put on and it is affecting our happiness. the other thing is, they don't play nice. if you have a check you cash for a customer, you can't sue them because of the form. that game has been going on for a long time and it drives customers crazy.

we have a 50% penalty if you don't do it all. the senior citizens, a 50% penalty for not doing it, when we have checks for covid not coming in and refund. this is people's utility bills and it could be a foreclosure on the house. i know it is money here and there but some people are getting real consequences. host: several things if you want to respond. guest: i certainly understand the complexities of e-filing. not everybody has a computer. now people's smart phones have become computers and you cannot easily print from your smartphone so i understand that concern. that is why the vita program has those offering time to prepare free returns and they will file them electronically for you.

that program is a great group. they also have tax counseling for the elderly that does a similar function, where they offer free services. i believe they have a dollar cut off, around $58,000 and below can use one of these facilities. there is software the irs is looking at that congress asked them to look at for online. it is online and i understand those challenges. the irs offers free filing of your returns at no cost. there are capabilities but i understand a lot of people like the paper and feel more comfortable having paper. host: for people who make quarterly payments for taxes, are they penalized if they make a late payment? guest: it depends. i am sorry, it is a difficult answer.

it depends how much they are late and how much they are short. they could incur additional penalties. most of those are really an interest charge for the tardiness of the payment. host: susan: tomb -- host: to marilyn in florida. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am 80 years old and i have been retired for several years. i worked until i was 72 and kept filing tax returns for several years. the last time was in 2015, the tax preparer told me i no longer had to file taxes because my total income was from my social security and small union pension from my late husband. i wondered if he told me right and i haven't been filing and do not want to get myself into a lot of trouble.

i don't have any other income, just that. i just want to know if he told me right and what is the cap? host: to be clear, the last year you tax filed was what year? caller: 2015, i believe. guest: an answer that there is an amount per year that if you are below that amount it is not necessary for you to file a return. the government provided what we called stimulus checks are economic impact payment checks, both in the 2020 and 2021 years, and you have to file a tax return to receive the patient. you might like to go back to an accountant use the vita program because you might be entitled to money didn't receive. there were three separate payments made and you have to do it within three years of the

time you should have filed the turn. in 1920 -- you need to go in before the april date. host: does that make sense? caller: yes, i did receive all three payments. guest: so you may not have to file the returns area i would trust the accountant and if they are telling you you are below the amount, i would feel comfortable with that advice. host: we have peter in las vegas, nevada, go ahead. caller: i appreciate everything you guys do at c-span. how do i know when it comes to the irs if i am a victim of fraud? i had a letter from the irs in september of last year that stated that i had a back tax and filed something incorrectly that i just received a letter a week ago saying that because i didn't

interact with that letter or call, now i/o 9800 -- now i owe $9,800. i called and then some and called me back and there was a dog in the background in they were washing dishes and it felt like a scam. how do i know if it is true or false? guest: the challenge is if you call you are not getting a high percentage of chances it will be answered. that is something you might be able to reach out to my office and they can at least put you in the right direction as to who you need to talk to to verify that it really is an irs agent and they should be able to check on your transcript if the irs has been contacting you with respect to potential identity theft or outstanding payment or

corrections. host: one more call, -- before we get one more call, tax filing season opens today, january 23. we will hear from nick in ann arbor, michigan. good morning. caller: good morning. i will try to make my most important point first. i hear every word your guest has been telling us. it proves how abysmally inefficient how government is. what is happening in the irs is what is happening at every other government agency. today she has revealed in her own words how mind bogglingly inefficient the irs is. if all of your viewers think

about it, her descriptions of room full of papers, first of all e-filing should be mandatory. the waste is abysmal. some said it was 30% and some senate -- some said it was 10%. either we raise taxes or doublet is what they say in congress. host: erin collins you come from the private sector, and his claim of inefficiency at the irs and throughout government. guest: it has been a challenge. i originally started in the irs and then on the outside. i see it from both sides of the table.

inefficiency is probably a good word. i think the irs could tell you there are reasons why, one of which is budgetary constrictions and have had challenges hiring. our systems are outdated and need to be modernized. additional funding, if applied correctly, i think you will see a different irs in the next three to five years on the moderna nason -- modernization side. they have been limping along with paper and until covid shut the system down, they were getting by. i think everyone is well aware that the irs needs to improve. host: with tax season starting, we know you will be busy. thank you for making "washington