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video app or online at c-span.org. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we're funded by these television companies and more including charter communications. >> charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet provider s, and we're just getting started. building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. >> charter communications supports crues span as a public service. c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> joining us now is wisdom cole with the naacp. he serves as their youth and college division national director. here to talk about the topic of student debt relief. mr. cole, thanks for your time. >> guest: thanks for having me. >> host: and if i understand it, you were amongst those of the many outside the supreme court as the court heard this week about president biden's student

debt plan. what was your impression if not only of the gathering outside, but eventually what the justices were questioning those in the case about? >> guest: you know,es outside ws a people's rally for student debt cancellation recognizing that folks have been working on student debt cancellation for over a decade. young people as well as seasoned organizers joined us in front of the supreme court from across the country. youni know, almost over 2.5 million in student debt was present many front of the supreme court -- in front of the supreme court demanding and making sure that their voices are heard, recognizing that we know that student debt cancellation is legal, we've been working towards it and that the stories that impact our lives are what's necessary to insure that we finish this. it's's absolutely important that we understand that it's not done until it'sd done. i know there's discussions being had in recognizing the plan, but i recognize that this is an opportunity for young people to make sure they have their voices uplifted in this space.

>> host: as far as the court, the justices themselves, several headlines reflecting the fact that there were many skeptical about the plan itself. what do you think about that skepticism, and what do you think ultimately it means for the biden administration should it not be allowed to go forward with its plan? >> you know, i think that skepticism is unwarranted, right? you know, people have been burdened by student debt for far too long, you know? the naacp just celebrated its 114th birthday last month, and we have members from multigeneral rations who still carry -- generations who still carry the burden of student debt, you know? folks who are educated, folks who have contributed to our societyks in impactful ways feea burden with this student debt, right in keeping them from having an opportunity to the become homeowners, business owners and to really build generational wealth.h. so we need to recognize and reshift our thinking about how we're thinking about student debt, thinking about this as an opportunity to right the wrongs of the path, an opportunity to

reduce the wealth gap, an opportunity to have a path forward out of this pandemic and insure we are building a strong economy. >> host: the plan itself, it will be 20,000 to pell grant recipients according to the pelling grant people telling us most are low income borrowers, 10,000 that would apply to those making under $125,000 a year and put those cap on monthly payments to undergraduate loans at 5% of monthly income. what do you think about those specifics in themselves of president biden's plan, mr. cole? >> guest: you know, in the conversation with the biden administration as well as the senioron advisers, you know, i applauded the racial equity lens when it comes to that decision, recognizing that there is a difference when it comes to student debt. student debt impacts the black community in a different way. the average black bower holds about $53,000 in student debt, and when we began those conversations, we were really pushing the to cancel a minimum

ofel $50,000 or more. obviously, we'd like to see all student debt be canceled, but this is a first accept in the longer conversation about value and cost of higher education. how do we insure that young people who are going to higher education have the opportunity to really see a bright future, righting? these -- right? the financial barrier shouldn't be with impacting young people 's decision to actually pursue higher education. i myself am a millennial. many of us feel burdened by their student debt. we know that 35% of millennials have reported that they have delayed their plans to become homeowners because of their student debt. and so this is really an understood to to give those who are most in need the most support necessary, right? s the an equity lens insuring that we have true justice when we come to this plan. >> host: the brookin institution told us back in 2016 that after earni a bachelor's, black graduates owe about $7400

more than their white peers. those are the numbers, mr. cole. why is that happening, in your opinion? >> you know, that is,st the happening because with of the interest that is occurring once that loan is taken out. in addition when we're thinking about the work force, right, there is still racial discrimination that happens when it comes to hiring, right? people can graduate from the same university with the same degree and the same skills and because they are black not receive that job, right? black workers are twice as likely to be unemployed than white workers. so we recognize that there's still discrepancies in our system at large. let's not even get started on the folks who start college and still have that student debt and aren't able to finish, right? there are so many barriers and hoops for black folks to actually really enter into our economic system, eliminating student debt is one way for us to begin to really allow folks a future within the country. >> host: again our guest with and if you want to ask him

questions about student debt relief, the president -- the administration's flash it, the other factors, 202, 748-8000 for democrats, 8001, independents. 202-748-8002. if you want to put your own perspective into the discussion and you have debt, it's 8003. you can use that same number to text us. ing mr. cole, i want to play you a little bit from chief justice roberts when it comes to the president's plan and some of the questions he had about its approach. i want to play a bit of a sound bite and get your reaction to it. >> i think it'spppriate to consider sef the fairnes arguments. yo know, you have two situations, both -- twoid come out of high school, they can't afford college. one takes a loan, the other ys well, i'm going t to, you know,onry my hand at setting up a lawn care service. an h aches out a bank loan -- he takes out a banoan for that.

at the end of four years, we know stastally that the person with the college dre is going to do significantly financially better over the course of life than the pern without. and then along comeshe government and els that person you -- tells that person you don't have to pay your loan. nobody's telling the person who was trying to set up a lawn service business that he doe't have to pay his loan. he still because even though his tax dollars are going to support the forgiveness of the loan for the college graduate who's now going toto the make a lot more than h or the course of his lifetime. now, it seems to me you may have views on fairness andhe don't count, i may a have views on the fairness of that and mine don't count. we lik' to ually leave situations of that sort when you're talkingta about pending e government's money conce which isis the taxpayers' money -- to the people in charge of the money, which is congress. >> host: and that was just some of the arguments including the chief justice. mr. cole, what do you think of that comparison he made?

>> guest: you know, when we put that duality, we actually to neglect the different challenges and barriers that many young people have even getting into college, right? i think it's absolutely important for us to recognize, again, shifting the mindset that student debt cancellation is an opportunity for folks to pour money into our economy, right? instead of having to pay back your with student can debt, you're able to become a homeowner, you're able to become a business other than, you're able to build generational wealth. i think it's important to think of this as an opportunity, right? folks they say that student debt cancellation is unfair. they may say that biden's plan is unfair. but when you think about it, actually canceling all student debt is what needs to happen. we need to make sure we give people the opportunity to see relief right now. we are seeing still the impact of this covid-19 pandemic which is exacerbating many issues within our system at large. and so this is an opportunity to give people the much aid necessary to continue on,

support their families and to insure that they have an equitable future inco america today. >> host: this is wisdom cole with the naacp, he serves as the national director of the youth and college division here to talk about student debt relief and related issues. our first call is from oregon, this is terry, democrats' line. you're on with our guest, go ahead with your question. >> caller: thank you, pedro. good morning, mr. cole. i've been following this, and yesterday because we've got a right-leaning supreme court, it didn't look that good. they've been fighting it. and then i was reading different articles, and i read about the woman, the lawyer that is arguing for the biden administration, solicitor general elizabeth. her preparation, her poise and the power were impressive said

higher education experts. could you tell me, do you know anything about her? i guess she might have, like i think i said, she might have swayed a couple of the justices to pay attention. i think one of the issues she broughtt up was standing, and i'll take your answer offline, and i love your first name. [laughter] >> host: terry in oregon. thanks for the call, terry. mr. cole, thank you so much. >> guest: thank you so much, erie, i appreciate that a lot. i know she's fighting the good fight and that there are borrowers who are outside of that supreme court supporting that fight because they want to recognize that it is absolutely necessary to make this happen in this moment. when we think about, you know, this fight for student debt cancellation, president biden, you know, ran on the fact that student debtll cancellation wasn the table within his plans, and so what we want to insure that we can see particularly thinking

about young voters or is insuring that when our politicians make promises, that there's policy, and implement asian to actually back that up, right? concern can implementation. no just coming into our communities a couple weeks before our election and making promises. we want to actually see the policy and the planan moving forward. and so what's happening in the supreme court is ini suring that policy and that plan actually moves forward. at the end of the day, it's not cone until it's done, until we see that student debt relief that's needed, we're not done with this fight. >> host: craig from nebraska, republican line. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes, thank you. i just have two comments or questions. number one is it's always in the details, the devil's in the details. and part of the problem the carte blanche discussion that goes on concerning debt relief. there's lots of reasons why people don't pay debt back, not just the fact that it's it's wrong to begin with. number one is what about all of the encowments that the -- endowments that the universities

have? harvard has over $50 billion in endowment available to them. the payments for the grants go to thosee colleges, they bo to those universities. -- go to those universities. that's where that money initiallye went. and so if you added up all of the endowments for all of the universities in this country, it would be in the trillions of dollars, yet it's expected that the taxpayers will pick up the bill on the forgiveness of the loans. number two is the details of how people spent their money to begin with. are they out driving mercedes, lex us? -- lexuss, yet they're paying off student loan debt? it comes down to the details of who ends up getting their debt forgiven. that's what has to be worked out in any plan that goes forward, not just a carte blanche forgiveness of debt. just like the pandemic dollars were spent, billions were wasted

in that program. >> host: okay, craig in nebraska, thank you. >> guest: i really think that you're getting at the root cause ofhi this issue is the rising ct of college education just over the course of, you know, the last 40 years. recognizing thatat it has grown exorbitantly and the cost has really, you know, kept people from the opportunity to actually see a true higher education. when thinking about these young people, these students who are going into universities, many of those who are taking those loans are also working jobs. i know myself when i started college,ed i had to take loans,i had a job day one on campus. had to save money over the summers every single time, making sure i'm able to make my payment, pay for school but also is willing to take out those loans and support myself, right? ive lived in a quad bedrooming with three other people. i that to find food on the weekends, i had a 5-day meal plan. many students are going homeless, are going without

food, right? there are all these barriers that keep them from actually being able to focus on the purpose of being in college. and so, you know, when you make remarks such as a folks are using it to buy cars and things, people are using it for transportation necessary to get to and from school, right? we need to think about this, again request, as an opportunity. we need to make sure that this is an opportunity to change the game but also have a deeper discussion about how we value what the cost of higher education is. ideally, this fight should lead to the fight for free college, and we're seeing this discussion happen all across america where folks are discussing free 2-year community college, insuring people have access to those places. >> host: our guest has a bachelor's in chemistry from the university of california-santa cruz. if i may ask, mr. cole, kid to you take debts for those, as you mentioned, and are you still paying them off of? >> guest: oh, you know it. i ott -- got $30,000 in student

debt. recognize that i still have that debt, i'm still paying that down, but i want to see this debt relief happen right now. >> host: and if i may, if you don't mind sharing, what are you paying there? >> guest: you know, when it comes to those interest rates, we've got to recognize that those are things particularly for the black community that is continuing to hold us back. often times when we think about interest rates when it comes to loans, you know, look 10 years out, black folks are still having to pay trouble the amount that their white peers do. so when i'm thinking about my own interest rate, those are some of the things, right? i've been paying down my loan since i graduated in 016. 0 the 16. that's almost 8 years now, and i'm still at the same amount that i had when i started. >> host: steven is next, seattle, washington, democrats' line for wisdom cole with the naacp. good morning. >> guest: good morning, pedro. thank you for c-span.

mr. cole, i'm kind of surprised that such a young man like you would be speaking for the naacp, but you bring a lot of legitimate points. our president has said he supports many of the causes of the naacp, but do you feel that just because a man is black, thatus makes him qualified for concern the. >> host: okay, watch it, caller. i'm going to lee it there. let's go to ben. ben this crystal river, florida, incompetent line. good morning -- independent line. >> caller: good morning, gentlemen. a little bit confused. you're talking about policy that biden put in. but not constitutionality. even democrat nancy pelosi mentioned that, that this was unconstitutional. and just wondering where you're coming from with that. i'm a little bit disturbed,

forgive me for saying this, but isn't it a little self-serving that you want this loan reduction since you have loans? i paid my way through college, never took a dime from anybody. two jobs. while in college. and, jeez, i hate to see everybody in this country become like a tin cup society holding oute their hand. sure, people have issues. talked to them all my life. come from the '60s, talked to them all my life. >> host: thanks, caller. >> guest: you know, there are multiplee avenues that we've examined and discussed, and the president's well within his rights to talk and discuss with the department of education to cancel student debt. when you're talking about, you know, unfairness or the fact that folks have paid back their

bills, we have f to recognize tt in this country, you know, every time we want to do a public good, anytime we want to put something in place that serves the people, often we have a problem with it. we can bail out the corporations, we can provide $9 billion in bailout to exxonmobil in the middle of a pandemic, right, but we can't giveon $20,000 in loan cancellation for borrowers who took it out in 1988 and are still paying it at 67? at what time does it end? we have to recognize that the way student loans is dispersed --ki disbursed is proportionate. black borrowers are consistently having to pay back more than others. when you're talking about unfairness, that sounds unfair to me. at thes end of the day, it's about insuring that people have the opportunity to pursue the american dream or to enter into the economic system. ask isre we need to do everythig

within our power to insure that ityt happens. editors of "the washington post", mr. cole, write about the law that mr. biden used to approach his plan. they say that mr. biden's debt forgiveness scheme is far more expanse conservative if a questionable reading of the two-decade-old law. law makers passed it in the wake of the terrorist attacks and it was up likely they were issuing student loan relief. the straightforward reading of the law's purpose is it permits -- to those who struggle to repay their loan as a direct result of a serious emergency. i guess all that to say this: could the president have used a better approach in this plan of his? >> guest: well, we didn't know it would be an entire pandemic for almost three year at this point. recognizing there's still a lot of people who have been impacted

by covid-19pa that often times those who are most impacted come from poor households. we havete to recognize that student loan. cancellation is a tool to really crease this moment in time. folks are still facing economic barriers. folks are still recovering, folks are still struggling to have jobs. young people have had to be in school and still pay tuition but do it virtually, right? and, you know, regardless of your learning style, that may be a plus or that might be a negative for you. we have to recognize that there are so many more amazing things that that we can cowhen we proside this relief, when we cancel student debt, when we give people the opportunity to really apply the system. and i think that the president is really using everything in his power to insure that this happens, right? we've been faced with so many key issues if in america today, you know? thinking about the young people that i serve, folks are facing issues of gun violence. our history is being taken away

from us. the cost of college is continuing to increase. in this moment in time, we need policy that's going to give us hope. we need policy that is going to allow us to participate in the future. we need policy that is going to insure that we are able to be here not just for a moment, but for a lifetime. and so in this moment in time, we need to make sure that we are putting all hands on deck into this movement toha insure that this gets done. >> host: in connecticut this is steven, republican line. go ahead, you on concern you're on with our guest. >> guest: wisdom, i'm a father of two millennials, one is 36 years old, us in practitioner, debt-free. she makes quite a bit of money, like yourself, and myy if son who's a communication major, both are debt-free, paid their own debt. i paid my own debt, and anything that you choose in your education is what you're looking at on dollar amount that you may have to pay back, and that's the

big problem. you chose the education that you chose that's very expensive. and i'm not sure you're utilizing what you're going to school for. it doesn't look like you are. i think what should be happening is that you keep bringing up the back race. i think that -- the black race. i think that let's make everybody go into the trades. electricians make a good $100-250,000 a year. plumbers. all of thosese things are depled in our country at the moment, and that's where we should focus on, not giving away entitlement money, free money for your education. and that'st a problem right now, is that when you give free money, it's not -- it's going to raise the price of education. and that's not what we should be focusing on. >> host: that that's steve in connecticut. wisdom cole, by the way. >> guest: my first name is wisdom, not winston, so please get that right. when you're talking about this choice, when you're talking about this idea that, you know,

people make the choice to become borrowers, people make the choice to take those loans, what was sold to us, what was old the us that if you go to school, if you get a higher education degree, then you can get a good payinge, job, that you can buy a house, you can support your family, that you can do the things necessary to operate in this society. but that was not what happened. folks go to school, folks graduate, folks don't graduate and still bear that burden and are not able to get the jobs necessary. when you are excluding that racial equity lens, when you're not understanding where different community of colors are coming from and the struggles that they fair, right, oftentimeses young people who are many these college spaces have to send money back home to support their families. when they graduate from college instead of getting support from their family to buy a home or start a business, they have to continue supporting their family, right? whereasnu our white peers often times will be supported with their families to be able to do

those things, right? that is not equitable. that is not fair. not an opportunity that gives everybody a true justice in this country, right? and so we have to recognize, again, that we want to have a future where everybody has the opportunity to participate. if we say that we care about racial equity, about social justice, if we they we want a society where everybody has the opportunity to achieve their dreams, right, i heard you talk about trade school. trade schools are a phenomenal and fine opportunity. but if you want to be a thought leader, if you want to be a chemist, if you want to be a doctor, a lawyer, a journalist, whatever, ann activist, an organizerser like myself -- organizer like myself, you should have the opportunity to do so, and the financial barriers that are presented in college shouldn't be not permitting you to do that. >> host: mr. cole, have you or the naacp talked to places of higher education themselves about the kansass they charge and -- costs they charge and why

higher education is so expensive? >> guest: yeah, you know, the naacp has been on the forefront of insuring that young people have more access to pell grants, that we can cuts a better relationship -- discuss a better relationship between federal and state dollars, even understanding the way in which loans are disbursed thinking about first dollar loans for last dollar. i think that's important, that we re-examine those systems, and we have to do that as we continue to fight. it's absolutely important that as we fight for student debt cancellation that we are rethinking our value and the structure of higher education, the way in which young people are receiving these loans, the way in which these loans are being explained to people, right? these are folks just graduating from high school, entering into college. it's absolutely important that we understand what's happening end to end. >> host: here is greg. greg is in texas, democrats' line. good morning. >> caller: yes, good morning. sir, i see you're young in age, andou and i want -- if you can,i want you to step back and rook

and see exactly what's going on in thehe naacp. what's happening now, you've got to look back when reagan was in office. gotyou with young people out of college looking for jobs and people say, well, you're too educated. you take my job. and then all americans, educated people went overseas to get jobs. aring beinghools taught this -- in this country is for people who9 got jobs and mainly hispanic people, they got an education, and they've got air-conditioning and all that, they'ree educating their people in these trade schools. our young back people are running around here, reason to me, thinking about everybody's their friend and they're sitting around, smoking weed with you guys on the job, and they're getting set up. then they -- >> host: let's bring it back to the conversationy of student loans. what would you like to ask our guess -- our guest? >> caller: the student loan thing is, the fact is when the

student loan keeps being handed out, we start getting educated, so the professionals gotta headache their money, because they're the ones getting paid for educating us, so the student loans got high because of the fact we started going to college. >> host: okay. we'll let mr. cole answer. >> caller: -- >> guest: i find it very interesting that the time when black focus are integrating in precome significantly white institutions, the cost of college tarted to increase, right? these barriers are being put in place that we're not allowing the people who need if it or want the education or to have the degrees to insure they have att better future, the costs started to increase. i think it's absolutely important that we reck that trend, that we recognize where we're going00 can and that we ge people the opportunity to see a better future, right? you know, something that you touched upon is the mental health9 implications of student debt. we have generations that have been defined by student debt for so long.

and so we need to make sure that we are eliminating that mental and emotional trauma. we a have gen-zers who are interested in pursuing higher education, but they're looking at older generations and the burdens that they face and recognizes this is necessarily not for me. we need to make sure we give people as much ample opportunity to enter into these systems of education too better our futures and to also help us think about the path forward, right? we want more diverse minds in these institutions of higher education, because we have a plethora of problems that need oure diverse skill set to solve moving forward. >> host: mr. cole, there's a story in the "wall street journal" this morning about the current pauses that are in place for student loan debt, but those pauses are yet to be pulled out, and student loan department's starting to be repaid. what happens amongst those you talk with once that happens? >> it's going to be devastating. i think it's an absolute

travesty if these loans get turned back on. but we have to also recognize that the system is not going to be ready for that in this note time. i think it's absolutely important thatis we recognize tt there are multiple plans that are being put into place to support borrowers in paying back their loans and that we have to recognize that we have to have an ease of access to be able to do so. but o until we really see this plan put into effect, nobody should be having to pay their student loans back. it's not to done until it's done. we have to finish the job. we started a journey, and we need to finish it. we need to continue to make sure that weee are evaluating these systems of higher education and insuring that this plan is put into place. >> host: a viewer off twitter makes the comment saying a one-time debt the forgiveness doesn't solve the problem for future students. >> guest: you're exactly right, right? i think that's why, one, we need to cancel all student debt but, two, we need to continue to fight for free college. we need c to insure that people have access. again, the financial barrier

shouldn't be put into place. if we truly belief that education is a right for every american, everyone should have access to higher education, period. >> host: fromti connecticut, incompetent line, we'll hear from -- independent line. we'llne hear from annette. good morning. >> caller: good morning. you somewhat answered one of my questions about where do the colleges' responsibilities lie. itsp seems a lot of the younger kids are now doing online courses, so doesn't that reduce hair the overhead? and my other -- their overhead? and my other question is, is there something in the plan that say says that they have to use this towards their debt and maybe not something else? aka, a vacation? thank you. >> guest: no problem. yeah. so, you know, in this plan it would directly go the eliminating that student debt. and so that would be a correct cancellation of debt -- direct cancellation of debt. we're thinking about the emerging world that we're in where we are vastly moving in a

hybrid reality where we are courses online, in person, and and all people have the option to engage in however seems best for them. but thee costs for these courses continue to remain the same. regardless if you take them online versus in person. the only thing that may switch is different you're paying for housing versus living in your parents' home or the dorm room. but recognizing that people have different learning styles, you know? some of my fondest memories from college was being in the classroom and having those conversations, talking with my peer, talking withti my professors, building a culture of knowledge and recognizing for me in the community i come with, really building that black genius and since understanding who i was at that moment in time when i was in college. i truly hope and wish for every young person who has the opportunity to two to college for them to have a trans-- to go to college for them to have a