cspanshop.org it is $29.95 plus shipping and handling and every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations. ask the very first president white house correspondent centers calvin coolidge in 19204. i had just been elected to the united states senate. [laughter] >> the white house correspondents dinner washington's premier black tie event is saturday april 29 watch c-span's at live coverage from the washington hilton hotel including red carpet arrivals of journalists, politicians and celebrities for this year's headliner is a daily show and president biden is expected to speak. that white house corresponnts dinner wife is saturday april 29 on c-span c-span now our free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. >> we are back with catherine is

a law professor at george washington university. we are going to be discussing dominions defamation lawsuit against fox news. good morning catherine. >> good morning to you and thank you for inviting me. >> of course thank you so much for joining us this morning. let's start with the status of this case. there is an update over the weekend without the trail was going to start today. that is no longer the case. what happened? >> apparently the parties resumed talks which had broken off in december. while it is common for cases to settle as we say on the courthouse steps on the eve of trial that showed there was no reason to want to settle this case. had such a strong case. but, after last week's events in the court room with the decisions the judge made, i

think fox has incentive to settle in enormous risks effort moves forward with the trial. i would suspect fox may be motivated. this is all speculation, may be motivated to make a serious settlement offer and of course any time you go to a jewelry no matter how strong your cases there is a risk one juror about the other way. and also runs the risk a strong verdict and damages hearing could be reversed and the appellate courts could be tied up for years. and so given that in the judge's unhappiness with the fox lawyers it is possible they will be able to settle. ask him to go ahead and give our viewers the numbers to call once again so they can ask you any questions they have about the

trial for related issues. or share their thoughts on the case. republic's (202)748-8001. democrats (202)748-8000 and independence (202)748-8002 because the numbers a colleague start coming in now and we will get those calls in just a moment. catherine, is this case unusual? we are talking about a private company suing arguably the biggest cable news network. is there much precedent for what we are seeing unfold? >> there is no precedent at all both in terms of the parties but more importantly the absolute extraordinary almost on immeasurable fact what we have seen in discovery. this is by far the strongest case that i've ever seen for a

defamation under the very stringent read a "new york times" versus sullivan to protect the news media. overt traditional defamation law iwhich you only have to show there was a falsehood. here the news media are protected unless they proceeded with what is called actual malice that mean something very different than when you and i is that in conversation. >> he talked more about that, the standard of malice and that's the precedent that was set i believe that is that "new york times" versus sullivan case. i want to bring up we have a little bit of an overview of that. it said the landmark case which held in 1964 that if a plaintiff in a defamation suit is a public figure particularly a public official or candidate for public office, he or she must meet the higher standard of proving

actual malice in order to make their case. so, how does that apply to what are seeing in the dominion voting system of fox news? >> first public concept of a public figure has expanded a great deal since then. but also under new york law, which applies here the public figure standard applies. even though this is a delaware court it's applying the laws of defamation in the orchids look complicated actual malice means the personn who spoke or publish the falsehood either knew the statement was false or behaved with reckless disregard of the truth. meaning they had reason to suspect that it could be false and they did nothing to

follow-up and find out. in this case we learned in discovery that fox had internal fact checkers. they especially said we do not want to hear the facts from you. it is not good for our business model i am paraphrasing of course. strong indicator among all the other e-mails and behind the scenes communication in the testimony and deposition the speakers up fox and the network officials who publish these falsehoods knew the statements were not true progressive going to read a quote this is an article that the hell route in which you were quoted in. he said fox does not appear to have any plausible defense, particularly in light of what dominion and discovery of

real-time knowledge of falsity. so, i w wanted to ask before weo and take some of our viewer calls does dominion have any incentives to settle at this point? i think you have made it clear why you think fox may have incentive to settle because there were some rulings that indicated their case might not be very strong before a judge or a jury. does dominion have incentive to settle? >> i think dominium has very limited incentive to settle. they have a very important point to make in t this case in additn to wanting the damages. we do not lose contracts moving forward the competing testimony

about how much they have been harmed in terms of dollar amount. there is no question they have suffered reputational and business harm. >> all right. let's go to the phone lines now mario in new york on the republican line what is your question or comment? what's my comment is how come c-span is not character of the judiciary committee hearings in york city today? >> etisalat off-topic just so you know you can go to seat -- man.org for the c-span mail app. we are streaming that judicry hearing live. it was scheduled to start at 9:00 a.m. eastern time. back on the topic at hand. dominion voting system dave in florida on the democratic line. what would you like to ask our guest? >> well you know the thing is i think we need more regulations

and news and information. if you put out bottles of medicine that were mislabeled they drag you into a criminal court and put you in j jail. at this company this fox news has been getting away with labeling their products news for over 30 years and it is not news. it is simply propaganda. its allies packaged up it is an echo chamber some the less informed people in the world to pair of mind edited that is all they do is sell lies. murdaugh personally confessed to these facts. he said in his deposition quote it is not about blue or red it is about green. now information current events i'm not even a basic single celled organism can survive without access to facts, the truth, to accurate data.

even a virus in order to mutate has to operate on factual data. yet this company, fox news has been able to spew lies, toxic propaganda in absolute bs into the public consciousness of this country for 30 years it's operated by a foreign alien murdaugh slithered into the country and made himself a billionaire on being able to con and dupe some of the most uninformed people of the world. >> will meet but in. let's let our guests respond to some of the points you raised. >> there was a question at the very beginning which is awh reay important one. why can't the government regulate the media to get rid of the information allies? that is really the central theme of my book, the right to live.

that is because the government, if itt were to regulate many courts have compared this to 1984 and talk about what happens when the government decides what you can and can't say based on the government's own assessment of truth. that is almost an impossible undertaking. it's the whole point of the first amendment. but we, the citizens are supposed to hear a variety of ideas. a variety of interpretation of fact. and decide for ourselves what is truth and false. that said i want to add one more thing. the judge in dylan versus fox case already went through each of the more than wondered 30

instances of falsehoods at the dominion company listed and concluded each and every one of the statements that appeared on fox was false. they use capitol letters and he was very, very clear there is nothing for the jury to decide about whether it was true or false. the judge says that spirit different from the government knowing the executive branch tells people you can't say that. >> was take another collar now. mary lou and connecticut on the independent line. go ahead mary lou. >> okay. don't know about the domain in case that i live in connecticut. my first vote was in 1962.

i have gone to the same polling place every single time of the election since then. i went to the election polling place thisth time, the same onef her i walked in the door i handed mymy license. they said we do not need that. i said you don't need it? no, we don't need it. i said do you want to know where i live? okay where do you live? i said on willard avenue, okay willard avenue we got that go get your ballot. i live in a rooming house that has nine apartments in it, they could not have known who was voting from that house. now, do you think that was up there a real election? i am telling you the election in 2020 was fixed. i live in connecticut were blumenthal, murphy, all of them are democrats and very seldom do

the republicans get in. but i am telling you i have voted there my first vote was for eisenhower. catherine, this collar believes the election was fixed. believes what fox news and others have said what are your thoughts? >> first of all you signed a voter book they look at your signature and see if there disparities they have some sort of check. mower importantly we have had report after report of official agencies. including under the trump administration federal officials. we have had audits in numerous states. we've had many, many lawsuits. and in each instance fair.

where there any instances of fraudulent voting? a handful. in almost all of them by republicans. but the phrase that everybody used was not in sufficient numbers to affect the outcome. we had more evidence than we have ever had before because of the challenges the republicans brought. so you should be able to sleep easy. host: on a related note, we had a color in a previous >> why can there not be or why is there not a universal system for voting making it consistent nationwide? how we cast a ballot? >> wonderful question. because the constitution gives the power to conduct elections toe the state governments. that is part of our federal system. it would be possible, of course, for the states to all agree to

do it in one way. but they don't have to. >> all right. let's go back to the phonelines, calling on the republican line, don is calling from lancaster county, pennsylvania. go ahead, don. >> yeah. i'm a hunter, and the last election in 2020 left the house at 2 a.m. in the morning. and all of the swing states that's pennsylvania, georgia, so on troubles leading other states. now i live in p.a.. and p.a. -- like 10% of the votes left and the only way trump was going lose pennsylvania is if biden got all of the votes. well ain't that amazing all of the votes allowed for were for biden if we want to talk about fox news not being fair and being for republicans, you know let's get our heads out of the

sand. yes, most of the people in this country think that 2020 elections were rigged and did what they have to do to beat trump we don't stop trump it is trump it's trump here's not even in officing right now and we're still going after this man. i mean, that man was greatest thing in the last 40 years now if he's going sit there and lie and say that dominion voting machines were rigged, she's full of it. >> katherine can you respond to those withes concern how those later votesla tend to go to democrat candidates or a little bit beyond my central area of expertise but it is something that i followed closely. one reason might well be and for many, many states is

geographical area and they're watched and when they're coming in fliects, very often a particular county or city reports later than other parts of the state. and we live in segregated silos right now in this country and so the zip codes that are coming in latet are let's say 90% one pay it won't be surprising. but most of those took one way. >> all right let's take another caller next is sandy in texas calling on the democrat line. sandy. >>ca hi thank you so much for taking my call and i just wanted to say that, you know freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences and we're glad that fox news is finally getting what they deserve after the

misinformation they've put outs and one other thing, the election, the election process itself is broken because how is the electoral college system -- how is it that there are presidents who have not have won -- who have been elected through the electoral college system but not through the popular vote. like bush and trump, they did not win the popular volt. but low and behold they became the president that's all of to say and subscribe -- >> kalt written. thawnch for that. you're rightht that the electorl college was designed to give smaller states more power and today we have a far greater disparity in where the population is based compared to geographic spread so they can take away from who won the popular vote thatho would requie constitutional amendment to change and it is very unlikely

that we could achieve such a change. in addition, we have real problems and let's go a little bit beyond theme of this segment. but we have real problems with voter suppression in the states. and extraordinary levels of jerry that makes it to flip congressional seats and those are plaguing our democracy. >> let's hear from alan he's ohio who is calling on the independent line. >> i would like to take your attention back to a number of years ago to a program that was started called war of the worlds. and this kind of relates to what we're dealing with right now in the fact that after the aftermath, they came up with rules and regulations from the fcc that made it illegal for any news i media to report something

falsely. that that would be wrong to do and illegal by them. that's something that government presented. it was a phrase that it coined back then called false radio. trump later on comes up with false news. well welcomeup it's very accurae with a lot of publications that are done through the country by different, you know, companies. and i take my hat off to c-span here because i've seen them a lot of times refer to articles written or something passed that they might pull up from the internet or past history. but we have to take in account that these are a lot of times opinions. we have to be very careful opinions.. my concern would be that everybody is held to same standard if fox news would have said something differently like they absolutely knew and/or it could happen, it would be a different scenario. so i would like to see that these companies if it's fox news

that violated that fcc ruling they should be held itablable to that as well. >> all right katherine. >> that's great. so first of all, for any listeners who don't know about war of the world that was a very notorious radio of fiction done by well -- in which it seemed that aliens from outser space were invading the united states and it was so realistic that many americans panic that i had got in their cars they hid in the basement. it was a extraordinary event. so that's -- that's the it context here. the rule about false reports i don't know status of that rule but it was decades before a number of supreme court decisions that protected the

right to share falsehoods and it wasn't until 2012 that the supreme court expressly said rise and untruths are not outside of the protection of the first amendment. and we are still trying to figure out what that really means and how far it extends. so if something is fictional, i think it would be very hard for the government today in light of all of the emerging first amount doctrines since war of the worlds to regulate it. and in terms of other falsehoods, there's really no question from the discovery material that fox knew it was lying. and that each of the assertions that dominion pointed to were falsehoods, and that fox knew much of this was false at the time it broadcast. and after that dominion told fox

in more than 3500 communications this is false. you can't back it up. here's what happened. and fox just kept broadcasting. so that's a very, very different scenario from the fictional it war was worlds. >> so you mention it bringing it back to this pending defamation lawsuit, and it does center on the first amendment. here's a statement fox news made about the lawsuit our source cbs sa dominion lawsuit has always been more about what will genete headlines than what can withstand legal scrutiny and now forced to slash their fanciful damages demand by more than half of a billion dollars, after their o expertebund its impausabl claim their summary judgment motion took view of defamatioaw that would prevent journalist from basic reporting in their efforts to publicly smear fox f covering and commenting on

allegations by sitting president of the united states should be recognized for what it is, a blatant violation of the first amendment. fox is making a first amendment case here. how do you think that is being applied or how are they trying to apply the first amendment here?nk >> well there's a lot to unpack in that question. so first of all, fox's statement grossly misrepresents the first amendment, the judge davis in the delaware court has made it clear to fox that they cannot repeat these kinds of statements in front of the jury. he will stop them mid-sentence and he will tell the jury that they have misstatedhe the law because he's already made pre-trial rulings about fox's offered defenses. so the first amendment does not mean you can say anything you want, any time you want. and defamation law is intended

to stop these kinds of lies even when we're talking about the very hard to satisfy sovereign standard. and what's io ron ib ironic is fox is saying that we should be able to law fast and loose withe truth as a news media organization or the first amendment is in trouble. but that's exactly what sullivan says no you cannot do. we'll need robust political discourse. but it has to take place within some kind of confines. and the court has made it very difficult to stop the news media when they say things that they can't fully back up. but if this case does not satisfy theng sullivan standard than i cannot imagine a case that will and that means it wouldil be a message to irresponsible journalist that

they can lie as of as they want and there's no remedy and that would certainly spill over into the next election cycle. >> all right. let's go back to the phonelines our next caller is patrice on the republican line from south carolina. >> yes. first of all i would like to say that trump is going down in history as the best president in our time. okay we're in a war right now gooderer us evil. and i want to go back to the caller i think he was from massachusetts that stated about the powerssa that be the elite. they are the ones that is behind scenes running this show. and our news media is propaganda. they are the ones that the biggest whip used against american people because they haveve a platform okay, and i

would like to also state that a lot of americans are waking up and have woken up and so we see right through all of this. now if biden got 80 million votes, where are these people where are these 80 million people following himwh like they follow trump? there's no way i believe in most americans believe that biden -- 80 million vents won this election. it is no way. katherine -- >> it's a hard statement to respond to. people often believe what they want to believe. regardless of the information, and you know, i think a lot of 80 million people who voted for president biden may be sitting in their homes wondering where are the people who voted for trump because i don't know any of of them. so we have a very --

disturbing absence of trust in the mediating institutions that are essential to democracy. and that's a whole other question in one that we have to really grapple with. >> uh-huh. >> let's go to the democratic line now christina is calling from illinois. >> you got the name of that right. i have a question is fox not registered with the fcc as a news organization but it registeredt as an entertainment organization? if you could answer that question for me, and also for the lady who just called, sometimes us democrats are a little more quiet about what we like. i'll take my answer off the air. thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> she said she wants the answer off the air -- >> she was saying she went ahead and hung up so she could hear

your answer. >> i'm sorry confused go ahead -- so yes. i don't think we can say that there's a consult of president bides incline s same way that there's a quote unquote cult of trump and that can confuse those who are watching what's going on.. i don't know whether fox is it technically considered an entertainmentsi corporation or x news a news organization. but we have to assume they have news kres den cials because they are allowed at the white house breeftion and they have press credentials to cover everything and there's a lot of controversy about whether they should be treated as a news organization with those privileges. >> let's bring up tony on the independent line you're on tony. >> yes, ma'am can you hear me? >> yes, sir.

>> okay. i have a question for you, do you know anything about the cisa reportsca for all c-span viewer? could you please google cbs article on cisa report on dominion voting machines. in this report, i called in before next bill he was only one that ever discussed the cisa report and in this cisa report it talks about all of the as a rule nernts of these dominion voting machines and vulnerabilities where -- hacker or somebody want to forge and get into the session and print numerous ballots please read this article and it will go and explain all of the different vulnerabilities of these dominion vote machines. now my question would be did the government print this report or put out this report in 2022 for

a 2020 election and in report it says that they -- some 2019 they've been going over all of these vulnerabilities? did they check every single dominion voting machine to see that nothing happened that was no forgery, no hacking you know ito seems unreal to me and whei read this article, i just can't believe that we still using these voting machines. >> all right go ahead katherine. >> okay. here again this is getting to a very technical area, and i may not have a deeper understanding of those reports than you do. but from what i have read, there were a very small number certainly distinct minority of machines that could be accessed theoretically like all

technology that companies continue to refine and improve. but while it does not appear nor would i think it would be practical to go to look at every single voting machine and every voting district. there has been no evidence at all that we're actually accessed andd changed and one of the explosive pieces of discovery in the lawsuit was when rudy giuliani after claiming that folks would change in many districts and swing states the hostst at fox when we have no evidence. i got people working on it. so we can assume that if highly motivated people with some access were looking for evidence and they never found it, it is probably not there. >> w and i do have the -- the reportob pulled up it is at krirks sa.gov i want to read a

crucial part of the smeafort report while these vulnerabilities prevent rifts that should be mitigated as soon as possible, cisa has noafd that these vulnerabilities have been exploited inn any election. let's go back to the phoneline, jane and in albuquerque, new mexico republican line you're on, jane. >> yeah. for katherine ross, i'm more of a conservative than a republican. but i don't believe anything you say i don't care what credentials you have but cnn, msnbc, fox, everybody lies all of the media lies. the administration that's in place right now from biden on down they all lie. they don't tell the truth. when you talked about the first amendment before musk took over

twitter, there was, you know, they were shutting down free speech. so who is the truth detective here to say what's true and what's a lie? people in this country don't believe the government anymore. the government ise involved in lying to the public we're not stupid out here. and you know, they put people like you on here to try to defend that you say that you're speaking the truth well i don't believe anything you're saying. but -- you. know, you got the media doesn't stop lying every day. and the president doesn't stop lying every day it's unbelievable where our country has gotten dominion -- >> we have to -- we have to let you go and wrap up this segment. katherine give you the final word. do you think this dominion voting system sister stocks trial could change any minds of people who believe what they've heard on fox news and other channels about the 2020 election?

>> that is perhaps the biggest uphill battle of all in our current environment as terrified by some of the calls we've gotten today during our discussion. i very much hope people will listen with an open mind. i hope fox and other of falsehood will rethink the limits on what they can get away with and try to behave more responsibly moving forward. >> all right we've been chatting this morning with george washington university law professor, katherine ross. she's also the author of a book right to lie, presidents other liars ando the first amendment. thank you again for joining us, katherine. >> thank you it was a pleasure. ♪ ♪ c-span washington journal, every morning we take your calls live on the air on the news of the day. and we discuss policy issues that impact you coming up tuesday morning, pollster author and communication strategist

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