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companies and more including charter communication. clark's charter is progeny recognized on the best internet providers. we're just getting started to reach those who need it most. quick target communication support c-span as a public service. along with these other television providers. give you a front row seat to todimock. the government accountability office managing director for strategic issues at the gao. thank you for comingff by. i think it's a pleasure to be here. >> tech about the height risk a list explain the work of gao for maybe those who do not know what you do pay. >> indefinitely. gao is a congressional watchdog who work for congress to evaluating federal programs and financial audits, investigations

and effective governments. we are objective, fact-based nonpartisan and independent. recommendations to federal agencies as well as sometimes recommendations to congress to make government work better. next to that end he put out something called a height risk list how did thatt come about? >> it has existed for more than three decades. started in 1990 and an oversight agenda to attention to the areas at greater greatest risk for mismanagement or in need of fundamental transformational. we started the list in 1990. since that time we have been issuing a new update at the beginning of every new congress. so that congress can be aware of the core issues are that really command their attention. and as we do that we are

highlighting areas that are being added to thehi list. areas being removed from the list. and for each of those areas we are showing what progress has been made. by the eight meeting the requirements we set out? is there more work to be done? and within that figure gao.wcl the underlying work that informs all of this. everything on the list. if you want to dive deep this a lot of detail there for you to the facts and figures behind it. you can also see recommendations we have major federal agencies as well as agencies were congress can take action to improve government operation for. >> generally what the program on the list? or a combination of factors that go into deciding what goes on the list. these include qualitative and quantitative factors starting with the quantitative factors that has to be something that is $1 billion or more that at risk of fraud, waste, abuse may be improper payment has occurred or

is at risk of occurring. n things that are at risk of threat that life national security as well as privacy. so look at all the specters in combination as well as her ongoing oversight of federal programs and also foresight for things we think are on the horizon that congress should be paying attention too. that all goes into the determination of what his high-risk area. >> the broad category and this list would coordination public health emergency being on that list. enforcement of tax laws, human capitol the defense department weapons acts, improving and modernizing disability program on the federal level the management of the federal prison system in the nation security. starting with the first one when it comes to public health emergencies was a specifically covid related or their other factors and looking at this? >> we have lifted public health

emergencies over the last couple of years. that is a part of it. this iss an area we added out of cycle. we added in the middle of a congressional session in 2,022,000 part for congress to be aware of this. we also wanted to focus the agency's attention on this area. f health and human services, leadership of and coordination of public health emergencies, as well as responses and recoveries from national disasters, this is informed by the most recent experience. it goes back more than a decade as we look at sica and ebola and other public health emergencies across the entire federal, and then also with state and local governments and private sector engtgt entities. >> how does that directly relate then to looking at the pandemic issue? >> looking at the pandemic issue

it plays out in a number of areas and another area out of cycle in 2022 we added to the high riskk list unemployment insurance benefits. this again, is an area that we had done a broad range of work on over many years, but that was really a spotlight on this program during the pandemic because there were millions of people inn need of unemployment assistance.ic and so as that was happening, there were a lot of difficulties and providing the administrative operations for this federal state program to provide that assistanceni effectively and efficiently unfortunately there was also a fair amount of fraud along the way where people who didn't qualify for benefits were receiving those benefits so we added that to the list last year in 2022. >> apology i imagine some of the response from various agencies doing this in heat of battle ultimately it will sit some time before we realize what we've done as far as putting out money or things that we shouldn't have. sm it is always attention because, of course, there was an

emergency and congress provided assistance and agencies wanted to act quickly. but at the same time, you really need to build it in that accountability at the outset and have some kind of smooth certification system that requires documentation to make sure that the people who really need the assistance receive it and that the bad actors the fraud stores don't receive it. >> in general if they've put out money that shouldn't have been put out what's the potential of getting it back? have they told you the potential there? >> we work closely with the agencies and closely with federal agency and counterparts that the individual executive branch agencies and when appropriate we also make referrals to law enforcement agencies. so some funds have been recovered. some funds unfortunately probably will never be recovered, and these effortses are ongoing but to identify fraudware happens buts to recover whatever we can as a federal government. michelle here from the gal

the government accountability office for the discussion taking a look at their high risk you can phoned it online and c-span if you want to look at some of those categories to the list and if you want call and ask questions about what they've discovered 202-748-4,000 and 7481,000 one for independent and republicans and if you want to tex us a question or a comment you can do that, at 202-748-8003 one of the other categories was tax law in particularly enforcement of tax law what the gao find? >> this is an area that was added to the original list back in 1909 and remained on the list and it is important to point out even for some of these areas that were charter members you will -- there has been incredible progress in various ways over the ensuing decade. so in this case there are really

two areas we're looking at one is the tax gap which is difference between taxes owed and taxes paid. and trying to narrow that gap so that the funding that is due to the federal government has people file their taxes is actually received. and the second area is identity theft refund fraud where people are claiming others refunds when they'refr not really their refus and so we've been working with irs on a number of areas including these and we have a number of recommendations to irs. that agency recently received new leadership and so he is in place and as the new commissioner as internal revenue service irss has a new strategic that is playing out as we speak, and then congress provided about 80 billion dollars to the irs through the inflation reduction act. and those funds will help both fillin gaps that have been cread through some budget crunches over more than a decade. so they've already hired 5,000 people. they have plans to hire 5,000 more it this year alone.

and as all of that is happening they're also working to employment gao recommendations. >> that second part of the -- how does that work and what was discoveredly there? >> refund fraud. there have been a number of efforts put into place so for example, if you are a worker who hadto a w2 that becomes availabe sooner than it did a couple of yearsat ago and that then allows you too file for your taxes sooner than you might have been able to say a decade ago. and that has been somewhat successful. another thing that is underway is as we have recommend, recommended irs to take action own this that there's still more work to be done in terms of digitizing paper returns and that then allows that return to be tracked as it goes through the review process. j and to first one as far as the tax gapt is this just a simple enforcement of finding bheem owe taxes making sure they pay ?em >> itis is that but then also things such as complex large

partnerships where you have multipley entities that are part of a return corporate return. soav it can be very complex butt is also the individual tax filing as well. >> michelle here for this conversation first call for you comes from cornelius you're on with our t guest from government accountability office. go ahead. >> yeah ms. michelle i used to work for the federal viewer prison i saw you have a federal bureau prison on your list and essentially they abuse me along with the fbi they've sent me up and everything. so what i want to know from the government of accountability office is if they use their money to set me up, is there anything y'all can do thank you pedro thank you c-span. thawnch for calling and thank you for that question. the caller talked about federal prison system management a new area that we added to the list this year. i am story hear about what you

have experienced an you call attention to part of thes reason for the addition of the bureau prison system to the high risk list this year. and that is -- staffingng challenges, and that creates issues for both the inmates as well as for the staff in the bureau prison system in terms of their safety. so that is part of the problem and then in addition to that it's the program that are in place throughgh the bureau of prisons to make sure that as inmates are serving their time there are opportunities in place for them to work towards their relief and able to become productivele contributors to society and knowing what works and what doesn't along the way. so our leaders comptroller general of the united states has met with new leader of the bureau of prison system just having a leader in place is good news there were 6 leaders and six years, there is now a leader, she iser committed to working with us to move forward on these areas. and we look forward to working

with the bureau of prisons as they implement our recommendations. >> story in "the new york times" one of the things they highlight they say nowhere has been more a problem inin hiring when it coms to bureau of prisonnings about 160,000 inmates at 122 prison camps and employing a work force about 3400 -- people who everybody less in state and county correction workers. >> human capital issues are certainly substantial for the bureau of prison systems and, in fact, for 22 of the 37 areas on the high risk list skill gaps are part of the reason why areas are on high risk list so affects all sector of society it includes both hiring as well as retention, as well as just helping people understand what positions are available. in this case, it's the office personnel management but it is at the center of government both for their own human capital challenges but also revising other federal agencies and what they can do to hire and retain

people who are dedicated to public service. so thiss is an area that we again, have seen progress in. there is a director at the office of personal management so that is good news there's that leadership commitment at the top. but then goingel forward, we wil continue to work with them as they are working on their own human capitale challenges and also working with federal agencies across the government as they are trying to meet their hiring challenges. >> let's hear from john jonathon from minnesota, democrat line. > yeah. two things -- i'm fromll a rural district, of course, many farmers here -- when the ppe -- or being given out during the pandemic some of the farmers werere splitting their farms to have the mother that 20,000 or father got 20,000 and son got 20,000. some of that money was to go to payroll, then they used that

money to pay each other as employees, and further more the bankers told these people and they're good republicans. you know conservative people the bankers told them do not pay those loans back. they won't come after you so i think that was a huge fraud going on and second of all farmers are getting every year --- every farmer in this country has 30 dollars paid by the taxpayers towards their insurance 30 per acre and own 10,000 acres not uncommon anymore that's what 30,000 dollars right off the top. and it doesn't matter the fact that we have now had three years of the highest commodity prices in the history of the united states. these guys are floating in money.. and they're still being subsidized. >>ys okay we'll leave it there. let our guest respond to that. >> well thank you for the call i'll respond specifically to the

questions you raise about the paycheck protection program and that was also the economic injury disaster loan program. and these are areas that we're also very much focused on and collaboration with our other accountability partners. there's a pandemic response accountability committee as well as the inspector general community across the government so in a case where you or others,ne others who are listeng have noticed fraud, you can certainly reach out to gao at fraud net at gao.gov or go to our websiteao to find more informationto about how to repot fraud. similarly, for example, at usda department of agriculture if there's a specific fraud issue you can reach ototheir inspector general and that will help begin the process to respond to the fraud and to responsibly use taxpayer dollars. >> you talk about action plans or agency that try to resolve theeshzs that you bring up. what makes a good action plan in gao opinion? >> there are a couple things action plan is one of the five

criteria that we use assessing high risk areas so first, you need that leadership commitment that i plengs to make sure that the person at the top in their team arere dedicated to initiatg action. and then you need to have capacity that includes not only leader but also the other staff who are at the agencs well as the funding and the management systems and the technology. and then you need to have the action plan, and that action plan needs to include goals, metrics and a way to monitor thate plan so that you see whrrnght you're making progress over time. and then the final criteria that we use is demonstrative progress. so leadership, capacity, action plans with which needs to include those metrics, milestone, goals and then monitoring allll of that to hopefully in the end be able to demonstrate some progress. >> let's hear from frank frank is in chicago independent line. >> hey, good morning i need a quick question for you --

appreciate learning all of this i saw that the d.o.d. was on the list in a couple of areas particularly weapons -- acquiring weapons, financial management they never passed an audit and they can't be audited what happened to your report as you're reviewing department of pentagon, the state department, i kind of want you to go more into that action plan because you know they spent about almost a trillion dollars of our money every year. >> which caller we'll leave it there. >> so caller has landed on really importante. issues that e are focused on and we work very closely within d.o.d. to both acknowledge the actions to have happened but also acknowledge what needs to happen and getting to a clean financial audit remains elusive unfortunately that is something that we have very much focused on that we raise with congress that we work with the department of defense

on, and then another area that the caller mentioned is an area that has been on gao high risk list since its inception in 1990, and that is d.o.d. weapon systems acquisition, and there it really gets down to basics that are so important to any acquisition at any federal agency.cs performance, cost, and schedule, and when the cost are out of control, when the schedule is not met when the goals are not met, that signals a problem. and although progress has been made in a number of areas over the decades, that just given the scale of what d.o.d. does and number of evolving weapons systems that it acquires it is an area that we remain very focused on. >>ac if you go to the website ad look under that category part of it says that legislation such as acquisition reforms from the 2016 and 2017 prompted d.o.d. to take actions to improve outcome of systems costing more taking longer to develop and performing

lower than anticipated levels you elaborate on that? > definitely so what you land on is something that does happen when we issue the high risk list is that it becomes kind of a catalyst for action. it becomes a road map for congress toa take action and conduct oversight, conduct congressional hearings right oversight letters to executive brarnlg agencies in this case congress also passed legislation which is sometimes necessary in order to c prompt that action or to allow that action to happen. and so that's what has happened here that is good news. but more needs to be done. >> h and what will be the recommendation because you make recommendations what would you rmed on that front then? >> on that front we are continuing to monitor the efforts that are underway. we also have a report that we issue every year looking at defense weapons systems across the board and so you can look ford that in about the june, julyyo summer time frame, and tn in the midst of all of this i also would be remiss if i didn't point out that actually this year, we saw great success in

terms of high risk outcomes and so 16 of the areas on the list show progress. and that's the most progress that we have seen in the eight years since we've used our current ratings is so that's the good news story.ea and then in addition to that we also measure financial benefits about and since our last update in 2021, we were able to record 10 billion dollars in financial benefits. so that's incredible, and then going back a bit further, from 2006 to 2022, we've recorded 675 billion dollars in financial benefits resulting from actions taken on high risk areas. so -- areas that defense weapon systems acquisition remain critically important we will absolutely continue to focus on that. but we also want to acknowledge action taken by both congress as well as executive branch and we want that momentum to continue. >> there's a lot to this viewers if you want to see more gao.gov,

the specifics when it comes to high risk report. and the sub category too and gao.gov let's hear from anthony in staten island republican line you're on with our guest. >> how are you? you must be real busy. but i have two quick questions -- we know this m administration lt time was reached when it comes to money. but number one, where is all of the unspent covid money that hasn't been spent and number two real quick -- put the budgets before congress, they always allocate money for in that budget and we all know it is not spent on those things. do you follow that? i mean, i say i'll spend 500 million on a certain program and take money and don't spend on that program and other things isn't that sort of fraud? >> thank you for those questions because those -- allow me an opportunity to talk about two additional things that gao does and one is in terms of

the covids spending we have responsibility under the cares act and then the related pandemic legislation to follow the money. so looking across the whole of government at all of the funds that were appropriated for pandemic response o in recovery, and to see what agencies were going those funds. so we have issue those reports and continue to do so and then those often serve as the foundation for additional congressional oversight, and so i mention the phraseng f the money. certainly we follow the covid money, there was also an infrastructure investment in jobs act that was passed recently. we have a number of mandateds under that act to follow the money and then next week we will issue a product that we have seen a number of years called nation fiscal health report that looks holistically in terms of our revenue and expendture and whats the long-term outlook is and so we'll continue to do that and we do work with agencies as they're submitting their budgets to congress often congress calls

on us to learn more about what they're seeing in those budget submission and understand where there are targets of opportunity for increased efficiency that's where they often lean on gao recommendations to facilitate their action in congress. >> when it comes to human capital we saw administration make call for people working at home from the pandemic to go back to their office has any measurement been done about the impact of federal workers at home and how that's impacted overall efficiency? >> we do some ongoing work specificallyy? on telework we've previously done work on telework prepandemic, and the current administration has urged federal agencies to tie those decisions to perform its metrics. so that is people need to be in say a customer -- service, facing, occupation, that they are then available to meet with the public and to make thee decisions based on those criteria so we will continue to follow that as all off that plas out and it's individual agencies

make their decisions about what their future operating posture is. >> let's hear from harold harold is in florida democrats line. good morning, you're next. >> good morning, michelle. i'md concerned with all of the government agencies whether it's federal, d.o.d., state, or even county government. there's a structural waste situation that a goes on in evey single department in office. where the budget is allocated in a year and if the money is not spent by the end of the fiscal year, each manager and director comes in and says, we need to spend d this money otherwise wee going to be taking away for next year's budgets. so what's your wish list would you like new oak desk or do you need a new chair or -- we've got to spend this money so there's an incentive to every

single government agency to use or lose the money rather than having incentive to save the money that they didn't need to use to do their duties. and this is across every single tiagency i've ever seen. and just don't understand why this is not addressed. >> that isen issue that gao has lookinged at kind of end of the fiscal year spending and incentive for agencies to rapidly spend those dollars at the end of the fiscal years that something we have complete work own and continue to complete work on as well as how agencies make their budget decisions and other related topics such as unobligated balances but it's balance remaining in account so then what happens so that's an important issue and one that fits into our overall consideration of fiscal health. >> the scenario he described is

it true does it happen as far as the scenario he was describing? >> it can happen so part of what we do and our work is go to federal agencies to understand times of their decision and what the reasons are. there have been some cases where -- we have had a continuing resolution in place pretty far into the fiscal year and so that then delays agencies decision making as they're waiting for final appropriation certainly another cases you do see rampeds up spending and latter months of the fiscal year so that's certainly an issue that we keep an eye on as we're doing our overwall work looking at budget. whafntle the side of the gao that's specifically looking at list and how long does it tack to put together what's involved in putting it together? >> so this list is one of the kinds of projects that it's large there are 37 areas that remain on t the list at this point. and it kind of never stops because there's underlying work that is informing all of the decisions that i talked about that quantitative mix of factors, so as we are issuing a

list we have also other work that is underway and we're meeting with federal agencies to follow-up on our recommendations making sureer that we kind of touchll each recommendation at least once per year. so that we understand what is happening in the federal agency and what actions that they are takingat gao as an entire agency legislative branch agency over 3,000 employees. located in washington where head quarters is but offices around the country. >> let's hear from mike. mike in california -- independent line. >> hi pedro hi michelle, good morning. hows stall most of my thunder he's absolutely right -- it's kind of like, you know, i think i mean no disrespect michelle but you're when this elephant is -- ramping through our country. the government is way too large. they do have incentives.

former auditor and that's the structural problem. is because they always spend to budget and it's got to be stopped. you've got to come up not so much with finding guy who's got some money in his drawer but you have, you havein to if the government -- if we're going control this, they have to build incentives to accomplish goals more efficiently they're always going to meet their budgets because that's how next year's budget is set so it's indemic to fund the county i'm sure you fund the county but unless that gets changed, and now at this stage, our biggest risk with monetary policy is that we know it doesn't work. the government spending all of this money is not helping our people. >> okay thanks caller. >> i would like use this as

opportunity to focus on what i think is cause for hope and optimism across the government through the high risk list and so i talked about smflt areas that we added to the list this year. the bureau of prisons unemploymentta insurance, and hs leadership, last year -- we also removed two areas from the list this year. and what that reflects is our work with corning and case of benefit corporation they provided additional funding for the multiemployer pension program, and that then helped that program maintain solvency so that date is farther out in the future.in and that is one way that that whats, ouren work with congress and then thes other area that was removed from the list this is that 2020 census and in that case we had worked very closely with the bureau of the defenses as they were conducting the dewe were clear when they were added to thehe list in 2017 that the rampant cost increases we had seen in prior sense were

not sustainable so, in fact, census was able to bend cost curve they have now procedures in place and plan in place to monitor that spending for the 2030, and they, in fact, responded to all of the items that i mentioned as criteria that we use to measure whether or not an area remains on the listr now we don't walk away frm these areas once we take them off the list we continue to monitor. but i use those two examples of areas where we work congress, we work with federal agencies, and we saw significant progress and then in addition to that as i mentioned the 16 areas on the list that showed progress that is a good news story. as well as the hundred billion dollars that we've seen in financial benefits since our last update two years ago. >> this was in maryland republican line. >> good morning, thank you for all g you're doing i'm great believer in what you do. my question and i was just a

guest you said and this i've heard before, the out of the defense department is elusive and i don't buy that. how could it be elusive with so much money being spent i can't believe that's not something we can get ahold of somehow -- i know that congress doesn't really mind that we spend money on defense i think that's something nobody ever questions but i'm questioning we can't account for it and spending trillions to other places in the world and -- we don't know where it's going and what's been whatting to it so i -- on what you mean is elusive, thank you. >> thank you for raising that. and that is something that we fundamentally agree on and comptroller is clear on hearings he did when he testified before the senate on april 20th, and then last week before the house oversight and accountability committee that it's not acceptable and that's why we continue to work with the departmente of defense as we ae

seeking a clean audit opinion. and soo that is work that has been underway for a number of years. it is unacceptable, and we will remain committed to making that happen. .... hat happen. host: one of the categories is federal disability programs. three of the largest programs paid about $300 billion in cash benefits to the programs in the fiscal year 2021 to 20 million individuals, both both these struggle to manage their work load make timely decisions on benefit claims. can you elaborate? asked the strategic human capitol challenges that are also a separate high riskll issue, ty have both skilled staff as well as challenges feeling possessions to examine those disability claims as well as the appeals. what that means if if you are someone who has filed for disability or you filed an appeal that process is taking longer than it should, you areg

waiting and you are in real need. that is a lot of what is happening there the veterans affairs of harvard a small social security administration. those are the two primary agencies that arens responsible. and similar to a number of other areas spread impartially during the, pandemic posed challenges increase, the human capitol challenges. and in addition to that part of the challenges there programs across the federal government that also focus on disability employment some way. for example there's an office of disability employment policy at the department of labor. but they do not have the same kind of authority thaty a white house office for tests. so they are working across the government they do not have the same kind of leadership capability as they might as if they are the center of government. pulling that together at addressing those skill gaps as well as human capitol and hiring challenges are all related to that.

closes hear from failing colorado independent lightly or just about out of a time but go ahead with your question or comment please. neither yes i spent most of my career working on military bases. in the rocky mount area particular colorado springs. the fraud, waste, and abuse is just rampant on these military bases but it is totally unbelievable what they waste and how it works. if they spent a little time on these bases they would see, i often made the comment that if i can have all of the money the ghost of a single person and saved up and have him save the money or look at the budget, that person -- and i can just take 1% they walk out there every year's millionaire. it is so rampant it is unbelievable especially end of year. they spend like crazy just to

waste it. i do not know how you can say you're doing a h good job in w saving all this money when it's not happening. stew and colored forgive me for that but thank you for the call. >> the work is certainly not done personal 37 errors in the high-risk list and their focus of the department of defense. import reason for that is because it waste, fraud, abuse and mismanagement. so we continued this work assignment should with never stop work in the heightng risk list week i'm going to work we are engaged with the agencies trying to get their action on the recommendation as well as consult with congress is there some of their appropriations hearings this month today in fact in the senate we continue working with them as we encourage implementation. certainly for anyone who is listing who does have evidence deof fraud, waste, abuse would encourage them to consult. or in that case you mentioned the department of defense inspector general to report those issues.

cooks the government accountability with strategic issues managing director is a website and check out the report and other things. thank you for your time. >> thank you so much. into journal every day we take your calls live on the air on the news of the day. we discussed policy issues that impact you. coming up wednesday morning we will discuss supreme court's role in the debate over abortion access with heritage foundation senior legal fellow. also demanded justice cofounder brian talks about progressive groups push for code of ethics for supreme court justices. watch "washington journal" live at seven eastern wednesday morning on c-span, on c-span now the free mobile app or join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, texts and tweets. succumbing to send the u.s. will hit its federal debt limit at the end