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>> a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this. it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are lose the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span powered by cable. >> we are joined from philadelphia by michael kerr, director, cowriter and coproducer of the frontline document tree clearance and ginni thomas, politics, power, and the supreme court, welcome to washington journal. >> great to be here, thanks for having me. >> what got you interested to begin with in justice clarence thomas and his wife, jenny?

>> 6 months ago somebody told me, they made a reference the thomas court. i said what do you mean the thomas court? i thought it was the roberts court and they said no, if you look closely, the cards have lined up with the population of the court is such, the endurance of clarence thomas as the person writing concurrences and dissents for the past three decades. it is really lined up for clarence thomas to be in charge. this is the moment, we started to dig into it and to know this is the clarence thomas. we started to make an hour film, and the unlikely story of them coming together and becoming what somebody calls the it couple of the far right in washington.

all of the information about harlan and other gifts that have been given to clarence and ginni thomas and our film expanded it to two hours. the whole package in this film, the back story, the reality of the court, the lies of these two remarkable individuals and that is where we found ourselves earlier this week when the film started to where on streaming and pbs. >> how did their story begin? clarence thomas and ginni thomas, how did they get to know each other? >> they were at an anti-affirmative action conference in new york city. she was an attorney, the national chamber of commerce, very big into not getting equal

pay for women and other issues. very contrarian issues. clarence himself was far from the aao see in the reagan administration. one of the people in the top upper reaches of the reagan administration. in the story we tell, how did clarence thomas find himself in that position? her version of the story is she saw this powerful, attractive man and says to him how can you work in the reagan administration? how does a black man do it? he pulls out some prayer cards. when i'm up against challenges and that did it for ginni thomas who has a binary view of the world, part of is the religious fervor against the other side, the democrats, the

progressives, whoever she is up against. that was it. a kind of kismet moment in new york of all things, no iron he intended, affirmative action, anti-affirmative action conference where they have been together ever since. >> you mentioned a colleague of you're saying it was the thomas court. you view it, you also view it as the thomas court and how much of an influence his wife has been in that regard? >> that's the question about supreme court appointees appointed to life. as almost everyone knows. with very few walls, not even the rules of conduct that apply to federal judges, the united states supreme court is relatively free, the idea of the appearance that it should

be pretty good but for a long time the institution of the supreme court has felt unsullied but the idea that clarence is there, longest-serving justice, and she is such a close companion of his, they say all the time, we are each other's best friends, we discuss everything. than the question is if she's involved in things, but she's very political, should he recuse himself especially around january 6th where she is quite visible in the incursion into the capitol building. not that she was there but she was part of the events, donald trump was speaking at the sense is maybe he should, probably he

should declare potential conflict of interest if any of those cases come forward but he said he will not and that, on top of the lives of others to his unwillingness to not only talk about them but recuse himself but it might come forward. that is where people worry about and lose faith in the sanctity of the supreme court. >> the new documentary on clarence thomas and his wife is out, on the front line youtube channel, streaming on the pbs video apps, the new documentary, clarence and jenny thomas, politics, power, and the supreme court. we welcome your calls and comments, 748-8,000, the longer democrats, 748-8001 for republicans and for

independents and others, 202-748-8002. i want to start with one of the earlier clips in the documentary, the logic off point of clarence thomas and what surprised me was his interest in and participation in the black power movement at holy cross college in new england. before that, how did clarence thomas wind up at this school, what was his background getting to that point? >> affirmative action brought him to holy cross. many people argue, as it did to the supreme court when george hw bush picked him to fill what was known as the black seat on the supreme court. .. black seat on the supreme court. even affirmative action in play there, that is one of the great ironies about justice thomas's profound dislike of affirmative action as an issue or a way to elevate minorities and others

into positions and others into positions of power or education and whatever. so he gets to new england after series of rejections in his life which are provided, heartbreaking back story on clarence thomas thathe o the fim spends a considerable amount of time on,pe trying to understand where his mind was. it's 1968, 1969 bobby kennedy has been murdered. martin luther king has been murdered. clarence thomas is in college as part of, a college that has 2000 students, catholic catholic college, all-male, and 28 black students there as an affirmative action early-stage affirmative action approach taken by holy cross. it's there for the first time in his life really where he has a cohort of friends were also black. as a child he was made fun of by the black kids and you can see

why in the film. so by the time he gets to holy cross it's great for him to do with a group of black men. they are all in various stages of frustration and anger at america, at the american political world, after opportunities, the streets, rage in the streets is strong both by the police and by the protesters. clarence decides he loves the notion of the black panthers as a way to exercise his own anger or dealrc with it. he dresses like a panther. he wears the break, he was a combat boots, he wears the uniform and he fights and i and all of this process and that is malcolm x. sos clarence gets the name clarence ask from that experience. >> host: let's take a look at a portion of that piece of the documentary. here it is.

>> he definitely was inspired by the black d panthers. he dressed like them. he talked like them. he had ever a and army fatigues and he had the army boots. >> he wore an afro. he was out there with everyone else. i think part because he had a group he wasn't although now. he became part of his group. >> i don't know if he had a well formed political philosophy before he got to holy cross. maybe he was simply going along, but the year is 1968, 1969. gosh, i wasn't there, and the forces of conformity to a sense of outrage topiary, resistance, the throwing off of oppression by any means necessary was very seductive. it was very compelling to many, many people, among whom was clarencee. thomas.

>> and he had a hero, malcolm x. >> we want freedom by any means necessary. we want justice by any means necessary. we want equality by any means necessary. >> they had a post from malcolm x in his dorm room. justice thomas boasted of one point he had read all of his speeches and he said want done he could quote you some of them by heart. so he really did pay attention to malcolm x. >> host: michael kirk, where you as surprised as i soon some of us are many of us may be about that part of justice background? >> guest: yes. it's part of one part of the matrix, whatever you want to call it, the complications of clarence thomas is approach. he's very surprising and every step of the way as he gears from one side to another and begins to form is political ideology and also his way of living in his life. ohe was, while he was a campus

radical, for lack of a more specific term, he was also extremely against intermarriage between black people and white people. in the end of course he would marry janie. so the back and forth, the pendulum swinging of clarence thomas approach to the world life, approach to the law and learning all surprised me as much as you could surprised anybody like me. you think i know the story, i have broad outlines but i've no sense of either clarence or jenny and him started to make this film, , as a said so months ago and take months, make one of these things and the dignity, the deeper we dug the more i realized oh, my gosh, this is a tremendously complicated figure were tryingem to explain trautmn michael kirk is a cowriter, the director of the new front

documentary clarence and ginni thomas, politics power and the supreme court. we will play more from the documentary in a bit. we'll get into the propublica revelations which you talk about some in the film as well. let's get to calls first. a few waitingde with clyde first up in atkin minnesota. independently. go ahead. >> caller: good morning. i hope i have time to get my thoughts through. this is going to be hard for me in somee ways as you understand. i'm a 75-year-old combat vietnam veteran. in 1969 i married an african-american lady. so that doesn't make me an authority on anything but it gives me some insights into some things i i experienced act in those times. clarence thomas definitely is and still is i think an angry black man. as you seems sitting around with all white powerful men smoking

his cigars, he's basically giving the middle finger to america. he could've doneav so much bettr and benefited from affirmative action which is tantamount to like the reconstruction back after the civil war. but from that the action hn played down. i don't believe that the man has the character that you should have to be a supreme court justice. and as he got a leg up and realize he was l going to make t and make it prettyan big, i thik he kind of stopped his nose at his roots and where he came from. and moehring ginni thomas back k in the day, if a black man married a white woman whether she was dropdead gorgeous when that didn't matter. if you married a white woman that was status. that was another part of what is going on at a that time and i still think it is with clarence thomas. one of the thing i would like to say come you take any average

100 intelligent people today black-white whatever and school in the constitution for a year, we could make just as good if not better decisions in the supreme court is making today. this doesn't make me an authority on anything that iton does give me some insight. i think i would put him in a category as far as angry black goes like billl cosby. >> host: michael kirk, a lot better but if you want to respond to any way, go ahead try do it's the conundrum that many americans, especially once they learn the clarence thomas and ginni thomas stories, they find themselves in the exact same place of scratching your head saying wait a minute, he supposed to act one way as a black man. he's come up from the hardest possible, most debilitating childhood i could imagine virtually, there's a couple of other things that are horrible that could've happened, but really he had a a rough road l

the way up and he switched between all these things trying to fit in, trying to be somebody who could be who he is, and he has come up with a kind of amalgam of who he is that minimizes his blackness because of a lifetime of trouble being black. he freely now has kind of walked away from that over the last few decades, and people we know who know him who are his friends when he was a child all the way up to now, and there are people like that all over the cell, they are just as a surprise and as astonished and scratching their heads as anybody could be. it's hard not to easily characterized clarence thomas, but he doesn't fit that easily into it. that's why have to know he is a story and her story to get a sense of how you really feel about what they're doing and

how, in fact, he's determined and has been determined since his really difficult confirmation process and the anita hill, against the anita hill allegations, sexual harassment at work. he has been, he's kept a list and he's been some say engaged in revenge in all of his jurisprudence. others say he's just he's going his own route and he doesn't care that he's, like people are liberals may think because he'sc a black man, he should go certain way or have a default position that is a certain default position as somebody was raised away clarence was raised. he's determined to go another way and not let the fact that he's black characterize where he stands on a number of issues that people might voting rights and other things that people might easily characterized him and drop it into a slot. that's not what clarence thomas is like. >> host: in the moment we will shows a portion of the

partnership, , how the partnersp was forged between clarence thomas and hisar wife jenny. barbara is in texas on the democrat's line. you are on. >> caller: good morning. i have yet seen the document but i'm looking forward to doing so. i understand that harlan crow wasn't an old friend from clarence thomas youth but only approached him after he was seated on the supreme court. but in contrast, a group of high school friends of elena kagan sent her a box of bagels and justice kagan had such a high ethical -- that she refused to accept a box of bagels because it might look like a conflict of interest. what can you sayks about that? >> host: barbara brings up harlan crow. let's introduce reporting of propublica on the lavish vacations and gives that harlan

crow gave to justice thomas and ginni thomas over the year. over the years. is your documentary deal with thosee reports? >> guest: essentially first off someone said this in our conversation this morning. clarence thomas is in the company, let's do it this way. as a child he really due to the world and himself in it as an untouchable, like a cut sitter in america. he is been working climbing out of that untouchable status of to get the equivalent of e the highest caste in america, if we had brahmans he would be come he would consider himself a brahman now. what that meant end-of-life experience was you had to become extremely friendly with, in this case, with white wealthy people, white wealthy men. he gets there as he, after his

confirmation hearings. he stops reading the "new york times", the "washington post", any national media and he relies on information in the world on two people, his wife ginni could tell them what's happening and what your take on it is. we know what her take is, very minor and very black and white, very evil and good. and he relies on, this might surprise a lot of people, rush limbaugh. he and rush become very close friends over the decades. he officiates at one of russia's marriages. and it is in that, from that world, the portal through rush and other wealthy white men that clarence finally arrives here he only make something less than $300,000. i say only because of people he's hanging out with our making two and $3 million a year as lawyers and even more if you're harlan, or other super wealthy people. but that's the world he lives in and he lives kind of lavishly in

a kind of strange way relying on the gifts of strangers like wealthy strangers, wealthy white strangers like harlan crow. no doubt they are friends from clinton's perspective justice thomas' perspective and also apparently, according to mr. cho, from his perspective, but there is the appearance problem. there's no obvious quid pro quos here. clarence hasn't done what apparently harlan crow once him to do, but he's been in the company of lots of people who are friends of harlan crow who had business before the court and that's really the reason that some people now are beginning to say we have to tighten the standards of conflict of interest. >> host: why was the extent of that relationship the financial relationship between harlan, and justice thomas such an open secret? and took the reporting of propublica to reveal the extent

of that. >> guest: i don't know how to open a secret it was. they were seen together a lot. he flies on crows play and can sometimes to do some business, give a speech or whatever it is. it is open in that sense but i think the wonderful thing tremendously important thing that from my perspective of someone try to pull this whole story together, what they delivered was actual facts, thei kind of digging that investigative reporting is great at, which is going to addressing how much is cost to fly a plane how many planes and justice of the court flown, how many private planes so that the information about thomas grew organically out of the fact checking their doing about thehe activities of various members of the supreme court pick it wasn't like there was this open secret and they decided to step in and go for it.d there was a lot of sweat and blood in the effort to uncover the extent to which clarence and

ginni thomas and harlan crow and his wife are connected as close friends, who every year, vacation, travel the world and the question i i was asked ofe people i interviewed from propublica and other places is,, so what happens when you are harlan crow and you are in a boat in a room with for a weekend or you're on a trout stream or on your jet on the way to a speech? that's the question everybody should be asking, and hoped that justice thomas and other justices to a strangely they see connections as well should come clean and tell us and tell us if they decide to try to with some rules and regulations they can follow. >> host: let's go to derek in randallstown maryland on the democrat's line.

>> caller: good morning. clarence thomas come he can travel the world. he can travel to the moon. clarence thomas is a sellout. s. clarence thomas could be a role model for black people, too young, black men who decide to be attorneys. he refuses to be. for some reason, i do not know why he thinks being treated unjustly -- where i come from, he is called an uncle tom. he is a sellout. he forgot where he came from and did not bring any black people with him. clarence thomas, i hope everything that happens to you is not good. you deserve everything you got that black people want to get. thank you. host: your film points out he is a role model to a number of conservatives in this country.

guest: it is true. it is an interesting problem for justice clarence thomas. he is aware a lot of black people in america no longer like him. his name in itself is a joke, a derisive act in many circles. he has always been at odds. at a momentary time, at a holy cross, he was a member of a largely black group of friends and contemporaries. the people we talked to who know him best say it bothers him that he does not have that kind of sway with young, black, would be attorneys and others. but, he is in that position where he says, i am going to steadfastly do what i think is the right thing with the law and color be dammed. host: you were able to speak to

a couple of his former clerks. was it difficult to find folks who worked with him to come on camera with you? guest: it is. i do not know if i would say difficult, there was a lot of unwritten rules about what you do if you are a clerk or if you are not. any of the people we talked to, we never asked -- we ask, but we never expected inside information about decisions on what cases to do and whatever. that was less important to me than understanding who he is and who ginny is and how they operate in washington, first during trump and where their power was at their absolute pinnacle. now, during biden, where it continues to be quite powerful. their impact in the world, and the way things will change, which becomes long-lasting

changes -- the dobbs decision about abortion, for example. the impact of clarence thomas on that and many decisions before the court are long-lasting and done, according to justice thomas and some of his clerks, independent of race and gender. he wants to think of himself as a person above that. the clerks, by the way, love him. the people at the supreme court, even people you would think are -- of rgb and others, were very friendly with thomas. he is like building -- he knows everybody, the names of their kids, he is apparently fantastic and his clerks are foremost some of the best clerks on the court. they have formed a group ginny

runs of former clerks, really talking all the time and advising at a distance and have the thomas view and are therefore quite supportive of them. some of the people we talked to were not critical necessarily of this jurisprudence, but work right -- were quite knowledgeable of the difficulties he has faced coming up in the world. host: let's go to philip on the republican line in ohio. welcome. caller: taking my call. my only problem is, in the documentary, do you stream all the trips every supreme court justice has to, the mistaken foreign? as far as you are doing ginny, on her advising clarence thomas, what is the difference between that and michelle obama advising barack obama? it is the same cat -- is it the

same cat and mouse game? guest: michelle obama not have a business that was in politics. as far as i know, no supreme court justice's spouse has such an active, "independent" career in business. she wanted to be a congress person, she is very active in issues. she is a long-standing, apparently follow where of qanon and other conspiracy theories. very much into that world. access to a lot of trump's and trump's family and mark meadow'' chief of staff. she is in the business of shaping the politics of this country. michelle obama, i reported on the obama administration, i had plenty of negative things to report on that. not that michelle obama was

playing the role of ginni thomas. ginni thomas is a unique character. as far as i can tell from the people we talk to, the way justice thomas has handled the harlan crow moment is, and the hundreds of thousands of dollars in gifts and apparently crow has bestowed upon them with these trips and other things, other gifts, it all starts to complicate the smell test there. it is not about ginni. it is about the very wealthy, very conservative, white people doing something that has never really been done with the supreme court justice, a very powerful, supreme court justice. i happen to know in trying to find out how many other trips were being taken by members of the supreme court. this is by any standards that anybody talks about, this is the largest case of the biggest

example, the most fragrant example of the supreme court accepting gifts of the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars, including $500,000 given by harlan crow to ginni's political action group she was running. she was paid $120,000 a year out of that. these are all things that are factual and accurate. i think, very different than anything michelle obama ever did or could conceive of. host: let's take a look at the portion of the film from the earliest days of clarence and ginni thomas. here is a look. [video clip] >> she sees that outside world attacking her as something that needs to be beaten down, something that needs to be destroyed. >> in spiritual warfare, good

versus evil, we are fighting something we did not understand. we needed god. ♪ >> it is a reprisal of the ideology ginni thomas had from her first society days. they regarded their opponents as enemies and practically satanic. so, she said you've got to fight back against the evil tormentors. host: michael kirk, how different was ginni thomas's background versus clarence thomas? he is black, but how economically different and experience wise, was it different from his upbringing? guest: in some ways, the geography of where she lived and grew up and where he lived and grew up is equally interesting and impactful. clarence, in a segregated jim crow south of the 1950's.

absolute poverty, living in a house that did not have running water or a toilet. everything you could imagine, horrible. ginni thomas, on the other hand, grows up in omaha, nebraska. goes to a high school with 750 students in her class. there are very few, if any, minority students in this. she started living in a world where she has a sophisticated understanding of people of color and different kinds of people. her world is largely white. her father is a wealthy real estate developer. an engineer. her mother is incredibly active in politics, especially conservative politics. the john burks society of -- her mom, marjorie, runs for office. she is a supporter, a partner

with philips wellfleet on the equal rights imminent. ginni grows up in that world. she sell -- she describes herself as a mistake child. all of her siblings were a lot older. her mom and dad surprisingly have little ginni, and they take her everywhere they go. she sees reagan as a young girl. she sees nixon as a young girl. she is at the convention when the reagan revolution is beginning and picking up steam. and, is an assistant to the local congressman from omaha when she first moves to washington. so, her life story is privilege, tremendous privilege in the black and white, good and evil upbringing in political terms that comes out of her parents

allegiance to the burks society of the world. her mom was a goldwater girl in that campaign in 1964. she is steeped in it. clarence on the other hand is pin bolling through one terrible circumstance after another in search of home. when they finally come together, you find somebody who can nurture him. somebody who can help him create a home psychologically, emotionally and practically. host: here is louise in fredericksburg, virginia on the republican line. caller: well, i give it to you. you have thrown out all the old bogeyman, the john birch society and all and all and all. i want to ask you something. when you were a young person, aren't you searching for direction?

aren't you searching for what you truly believe in? this man is a godsend to the world. he is a good man. he is an intelligent man. he is a man with wisdom. all i can see is, this is a hit job on somebody that is black. you are anti-black. you are anti-black and white marriage. you, it is you. you are projecting. you onto clarence thomas. host: all right, louise. we will give michael kirk a chance to respond. guest: this is the enemy of the people counterattack. i spent six months of my life, i do not know how much time you have spent out there, ma'am. with all due respect, you've got a right to your opinion. i think with an open mind and our own prejudices, to be sure to identify and work against, we went out and wanted to find out the true story. i think we did.

as i say, we did not talk to enemies of these people. there are a lot of friends, a lot of supporters, coworkers who talk about them. john bolton, name the conservatives you would like to hear from and watch our film if you can with an open mind or even with your prejudices and not just anger at somebody who tells you something you do not want to hear. watch the film and decide. call me and see if you still feel the same way after you watch the film. host: jay sanders says this on twitter. justice thomas ventures beyond elite schools to film clerkship in a system where justice is whole from their alma mater's and a handful of other top schools. justice thomas cast the widest net. in your film, you point out justice clarence thomas elect el

school graduate, very disappointed that he did not get hired by some top law firms in new york or washington. why -- what were his expectations coming out of yale? guest: many of clarence's friends, some who went to law school, were themselves beneficiaries of affirmative action. say what clarence was after was what they were after. go to yield law school, this is an automatic ticket to the top rung. you are a graduate of yale law school, you will get a prestigious job on wall street if you want. you will get the money. you will have arrived. i think clarence had an expectation that might happen. when he got there, he realized the school -- even though his housemate at the time was john bolton and they were having regular conversations about the

conservative perspective of the world and whatever, clarence realized as he graduated that the school -- bill and hillary clinton were just ahead of them. a lot of people believed they were going to try to change the world were in those classes. that was not clarence's style. he was outgunned, he basically never spoke in class. he did not get any offers, like many of the other people. one of his friends tells us he realized because of the affirmative action, a way he gets into school, he feels in his mind the little checkmark that says not qualified, just receiving progressive, liberals conscience -- there was an asterisk next to his name that said black recipient

affirmative action graduate of yale law school. he keeps the rejection letters. one person tells us, it stacked up neatly, even as a supreme court justice, even after all these years. he remembers them. he has a $.10 price tag put on his diploma from yale law school because he said that was the price of -- that was the worth of the degree from yale law school. he has memories from things of his past life, including his graduation from law school or he leaves to be an assistant attorney general in missouri for $10,000 a year, one of the few jobs he felt like he wanted to take. host: we have time for a call or two more. we will get to mike in springfield, virginia. independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. a couple observations. the first was during the hearings for his confirmation,

there was a contentious moment. he was in the hall with other people. my friend had heard them talking. they came up with the tagline, high-tech lynching. that was the thing he had spouted. the second observation is, where i live, over the course of the year and a half or so, i have run into him twice. the first time, i spotted him. i was walking toward him. his wife stepped right ahead and he does not have time to talk to you. he has things to do. i was kind of shocked by that. that actually happened a second time. i know she seemed very controlling of him. i got to give it to her, she had one eye on the parking lot and one eye in the front to see who is approaching him. i thought that was strange. thank you were taking my call. host: michael kirk as we wrap up here, any final thoughts you

think viewers should know about the film and why they should watch? guest: >> guest: let's just paused for one second on the phrase affirmative action, which the court will make a decision about in the next, could be tomorrow, could be the next week or weeks. this has been his position on affirmative action has been an accumulation of all the slights and all of the rejections of his entire life. and as a policy it's something he's determined to take apart. he no longer believes in long that's been found by the supreme court is settled law, that's the usual three.oe he's reopening lots of things, and affirmative action would be the first real sign since adopts decision, antiabortion decision in doing away with roe v. wade. so watch closely, and then watch the film are watch the film and

then watch closely and see how it works out for affirmative action. at least you might know why he's come down and the court has come down in the way that it will. >> host: clarence and ginni thomas, politics, power and the supreme court. our guest michael kirk directed at, corroded and you can watch it d available now pbs.org/frontline. it's a also available at the pbs the upper thanks for joining us this morning michael kirk. >> guest: my pleasure, thank you. >> this afternoon entering a u.s. national security and relations with china. we will hear testimony from fbi and homeland security officials starting live at 2 p.m. eastern on c-span2, c-span now are free mobile video app, and online at c-span.org. >> earlier today members of congress took a look at the biden administration's immigration and border security policies by hearing testimony

from a former u.s. border patrol chief and the mother of a woman who was the victim of an alleged ms-13 gang member. watch the entire hearing tonight at nine eastern on c-span. it's also available on our free mobile video app c-span now, or online at c-span.org. >> booktv every sunday on c-span2 features leading authors discussing the latest nonfiction books here at two p.m. eastern design mom.com founder gabrielle blair shares her book responsively where she argues the abortion debate should focus more on the lack of accountability by men and preventing unwanted pregnancies. at 8 p.m. fox news columnist bethany mandell author of stolen news contends leftist ideologies passed along to today's young people through education, entertainment and culture. watch booktv every sunday on c-span2, and find a full

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