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before the senate foreign relations committee. the ambassador discussed ways russia could be brought to justice and accusations the pentagon withheld evidence of war crimes. this is an hour andn 15 minutes. the. [background noises] the senate foreign relations committee will come to order.il for well over a year noticing the horror of putin's illegal unprovoked invasion and the brutality he has inflicted on

the people of ukraine. russian airstrikes have destroyed schools, flattened apartment buildings, killed mothers and babies in maternity wards. we have witnessed bombs on children and caregivers of government protection attacks on civilian nuclear facilities and a systematic targeting of civilian infrastructure but it is a night here it does not let the current human rights organizations russian forces occupied village schools, airport hangers whatever they them find and converted into makeshift torture chambers with a beat, electrocute and threaten to mutilate ukrainian detainees. they have kidnapped children raped ukrainian women and girlsi exit rate executed men and start civilians. make no mistake. these acts are war crimes and crimes against humanity.

mass atrocities putin and his underlings must be held responsible for. even as the war rages on in ukraine we must do everything we can to gather and preserve evidence on these atrocities to lay the groundwork for justice. some bath and i would hear a few of the u.s. government efforts. i commend the state department early on in the war.russian atrocities what they are, or crimes the department determination earlier this year's crimes are not too widespread and systematic attack against ukraine civilian population. in other words there crimes against humanity. now ambassador i commend you personally for your tireless effort and work shining a light on atrocities around the world to combat impunity not only for russian crimes but war crimes and crimes against humanity burma, sierra, and north korea. but it cannot just be you and

your colleagues in the department of state and justice. our entire government and the international community must always follow up with actions. ukraine prosecuted more than 88000, 88000 alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity to date. 88000 that number continues to grow who suffered unspeakable horrors and risk their lives the world and this body are rallying to seek accountability. it is not taking concrete actions to bring putin and those responsible for theseioti atrocs to justice but set a dangerous precedent. last year on a bipartisan basis, congress gave the executive branch important new authority in the right information and other to war crimes investigation.

commend the icc for issuing the arrest for putin and his so-called commissioner for children's rights. but here in the united states, we may be saying the right words when calling out these crimes the administration not use the tools we have provided to help hold putin accountable. it is simply inexcusable. it calls into question our resolve and commitment to justice. there are real consequences to this an action rest of the world is taking note. no i know there are many who support assist in icc including our witness today. state department is encouraged work with icc during putin to justice. it is noo secret the department of defense is the holdnt up. i asked the department of defense to participate in today's hearing so we can better understandy why they are blockg implementation of federal law.

whatever they are thinking ever fusible is unacceptable blocking critical u.s. assistance for investigations into atrocities in ukraine. it is dangerous to our system of government. did the department does not get to pick and choose which laws it will obey. let me repeat that. the defense department does not get to pick and choose which laws it will obey part of the night they provide full support for investigations that could lead to holding russian officials accountable. we continue to hear about russian forces boiling people's and water, systematically raping women while threatening their children. killing in cold but we cannot sit and do nothing. much of the world must come together impressive unity and response of the unjust war. we must make sure our efforts to an with condemnation must seek and deliver accountability.

so ambassador, i look forward to exploring with you what more can be done to ensure putin and others are brought to justice for the work crimes, crimes against humanity and aggression including by supporting the icc. show this is about more than words. there must to be and it will be accountability for the crimes against ukraine and people with that when we turn to r distinguh ranking member. click send it mr. chair. to start with what we say for the record i'm an absolute full agreement with remarks determined man in his opening statement. i'm glad we are discussing this important discussion which had ukrainian witness to testify that has all been publicized i understand time is an issue like the term i like that someone from the defense department to talk to us about why they think

they do not have to comply with the laws of the past. we are not done with that yet and i'm sure they know that. the atrocities putin has committed to ukraine very quickly rose to the level of genocide after the fact this can be possibly resolution last congress leaving despicable crimes. the diligently targeted civilians and infrastructure to erase ukraine off the map. one of the most egregious crimes was a russian bombing of maternity hospital last march. countless citizen civilians have been killed in their own beds the international community must've been steadfast in documenting and prosecuting putin's work crimes the vast reins multipronged response with a variety of jurisdictions to cover every aggressor from the master planners to the foot soldiers. i welcome icc's recent decision

to arrest warrants for putin and the russian commission for children's rights. from there despicable roles in particular children. the filtration camps russia is detaining torturing ukrainian citizens before transferring them into russia depraved as russian steel ukrainian children with the van by the thousands can the iccs work the office of the creighton prosecutors general over 85000 potential work crimes as the chairman noted. it's importantnt ukraine exercie its jurisdiction over crimes that can prosecute domestically. probably made states provide essential assistance for documentation of work crimes and this committee is going to see matson for centerrc oversight capacity i look forward to

hearing from you on the different avenues to pursue justice as well as what the myspace can do to increase its support for accountability for the ukrainian people. other department leadership on issues related to the prevention of and response to atrocity crimes including war crimes, crimes against humanity andri genocide. ambassador is a world renowned scholar on human rights law, international justice issues with significant experience in practice and academics she taught most recently at stanford law school she directed stanford international human rights conflict resolution clinic. we welcome investors are your for a full statement will be included in the record without objection. i would ask you to summarize in five minutes or so. so we can have a conversation

with you on that, you are recognized. parts wonderful good afternoon. mr. chairman, ranking member distinguished members of this committee. opportunity to address you today. senators, vice president zelensky so aptly noted earlier this month there can be no peace without justice in ukraine. this is justice for the millions of people whose lives have been disrupted and destroyed as a result of the senseless unlawful unprovoked terrible war off territorial conquest launched by president putin. my office in collaboration with others in many international partners solvent and civil society are working to strengthen five pathways to justice so pull the norms that we all hold dear and to ensure those most responsible for these abuses are held to account.

supporting each. the first pathways international courts and institutions. our efforts here include e workg to establish then to renew the mandate of the united nations commission of inquiry devoted to ukraine. multiple invocations of the muscat mechanism for security and cooperation in europe. we also sought to intervene in ukraine's case against russia under the genocide convention for the international court of justice. finally as mentioned the prosecutor of international make his first move opened an investigation into the matter in ukraine and a successfully achieved two arrest warrants. we are grateful for the bipartisan legislation congress has enacted in support of the icc investigation in ukraine. consequential work crimes investigation and history. the second pathway to justice aims to strengthen increase the capacity to document investigate

prosecute crimes in the pretty importance of bright light justice. the prosecutor general as mentioned potentially prosecutable crimes to the atrocity crimes advisory group funded by my office with the european union and the united kingdom we are providing expert assistance and expert training on the whole range of investigative needs of the prosecutor general. workingne with them to strengthn their ability to prosecute these cases and sift through the 90000 crimes. this includes. focus attention to consecrated sexual violence we know is rampant in ukraine is documented by the united nations and other reputable bodies. the third pathway to justice a supporting strategic litigation may happen in third states. in europe we witness that mass globalization operating under the umbrella to coordinate

strategies and share information and evidence. the state is participatete in these efforts the memorandum of understanding to engagement with the joint investigative team formed by a number of european states and also by work with civil society organizations. intake impunity organizations are providing potential evidence witnesses et cetera due to national authorities. prosecutions for the crime offo aggression offer a fourth pathway to justice. permitting impunity for russia's illegal war of aggression will embolden other actors who will engage in blatant violations of state sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence. for this reason or support in the of a tribunal dedicated to the prosecution of aggression. one that is rooted in ukraine's domestic system but is enhanced by multiple international elements in the form of

personnel, expertise, structure, support, information sharing, financing.. the final pathway to justice lead to rigid united states states. this involves continuing to strengthen u.s. law and ensuring the united states is not become a safe haven for those who commit international crimes such as those committed in ukraine but elsewhere. congress is taken a monumental step in this direction might pass the justice for war crimes act. this movie can be done to provide us prosecutors for the tools they need to process international crimes for deputy attorney general lisa monica said before the senate judiciary committee united states lacks the crimes he could see many statute. crimes against humanity encompass a range of abuses including murder, torture, rape, when they are committed in the context of widespread or systematic attack sibling population and pursuant to a policy of estate or organization to commit that attack. they can be committed during armed conflict but also in times of peace so they can be quite

useful in other situations such as while jon brc has subjected the uighurs. crimes against humanity. beth and crimes humanity legislation will better align u.s. law with all of our friends and allies. and also empowered to prosecute the whole range of international crimes. senators, there can be no secure or lasting peace without justice. holding russia to account for his work crimes, crimes f and community than other atrocities within ukraine because ukrainian people is essential to the u.s. values in the maintenance of a peaceful, just insecure world. we welcome the support of congress to achieve these goals. to advance the five pathways to justice to decision united states as a leader international justice. with that i think you and i welcome your questions. thank you. we'll start around five minuteso

relaxers at the criminal court i spoke with the prosecutor general prosecutor of the hague. we had a good conversation. assist in the icc investigation to open the door to prosecutions of u.s. service members. largely dismissed by legal experts i raise this issue with thert prosecutor general. it was not his intention by any stretch of the imagination to do that. if anything he actively solicited the support of the united states. particularly in information to substantiate the cases. you shared the concerns raised by the department of defense? what's in my role in the lead diplomat i would work tirelessly

to ensure no will be brought up that would ever come to pass again i do not think that's an acute risk at this type for the prosecutor is already announced his de- prioritized anything into forces in afghanistan instead turning his attention as is appropriate to ongoing crimes against humanity committed by the taliban and other nonstate actors in afghanistan in addition another court operates under principal that if the national system s set up a court will back but so the prosecutor said with a robust system of military justice and we have the worker exact. we are in a very good position to any matters might emerge in the t future and some few people future hypothetical situation. i do not think the argument that by assisting in this matter which involves a national nonstate party, we are all undermining our ability to robustly protect against any charges that might be brought or interesting u.s. personnel future.

once i printed that analysis but my only discussion with him in front of other members he said exactly the same thing. i do not understand why the department of defense is not providing critical information so we can ultimately get accountability here. why does the state department support information and we ukraine investigation. what do we have to contribute to the cost? you mentioned some in your opening statement. how critical is our assistance versus otherri sources? >> 's disturbing hard to imagine united states senate on the sidelines and this investigation given all that we have done the assessment we have made in ukraine for the investment we have made pursuing justice in ukraineis. we are unique of the unique assets we have for the intelligence that we have it. the brilliance of our diplomats

as public manner and regional experts in the state department and elsewhere. there are many ways we could be supporting this investigation and respected witness protection,wi insider witnesses that may want to give testimony. all of those ways the past we have assist with international prosecution before international hybrid courts. there are a range of ways we could be of assistance. none of that would jeopardize. in fact it strengthens our positions because it shows as engagement works. it is important to maintain open lines of communication with international organizations. not just the corporate other international organizations that might make decisions we might disagree with. it's important to engage in constructive helpful assistance when we can. that shows we are in good faith trusted partner in this regard. with issues with international organization we know who to call permit lines of communication open. we have built a relationship of trust we can then rely on it and call upon you for fighting

yourselves and defensive posture. sender kunz was with me on this trip. one of the things we heard is the icc we've never had a challenge as large as russia. and as an adversary in a sense because putin dictates that nationstate does. for example how does the icc protect witnesses who speak truth to power about putin's atrocities? the reach other attacks of what russia is capable of doing going far outside its borders into otherrs countries. to speak out against the regime.

this anything like this ever taken to speak to that? >> are exactly right in my visits other key principles have come here to the united states. the court feels like it's under a false witness is adverse or that they've never seen. has skills and ability to infiltrate the institution that previous situation countries did not present for you may havere read recently there is an attempt to place a intern masquerading as a brazilian graduate students but we are prosecuting the individualcu person fine and other measures here in united states states they were living undercover here. these are the memes they are taking to try to protect themselves against a particular investigation. given our tech sector. giving our excellent cybersecurity understanding, skills and personnel we are uniquely positioned to audit

what protections the courthouse. to make recommendations about a public how open source evidence is out there there are terabytes being generated. these cases will always rely upon individuals as you say willing to speak truth to power but willing to step up and put themselves and their families at risk they can tell a story they can bear witness to what they have experience we need to keep this individual safe of these cases will not proceed effectively. >> think it mr. chairman. ambassador it's pretty obvious to most people the issue we are talking about here is not a partisan issue. do you agree with me in that regard? what's i do my purse at the bipartisan cooperation we've seen on the new legislation in supporting my work in the work of my office in the hor portfolio. >> i appreciate that there are some loud voices that dissented but any involvement in ukraine.

they get a lot of ink but my experience here in congress that's a pretty thin layer are you in agreement with that in your dealings with congress? >> if duncan had'v nothing but support for many of the members and staffers i've spoken with. click save or shake that. interesting about the german attack on opening statement for whatever reason the department of defense pushing back doing what we congress told them to do weng don't like that lower not going to enforce that we are going to be doing something about that. the other thing i would point out for the record is intimately drawing that legislation. it could be pitfalls that could be a problem has specific

language receipt that didn't happen. i was not contacted by anybody from the department of defense as we drafted that legislation we did not drafted under a bushel baskets no one came forward and said it's a problem. when pressing what needs to be done here. >> thank you center i agree the legislation is very carefully crafted. it is surgical. the various parties promise not to refer their nationals to the court. all of those protections remain in place. there are ways we can prep provide assistance without jeopardizing u.s. personnel. that's exactly it is designed to

do to provide assistance without in any way affecting the other strong provisions that had been in place for many, many years. and it has worked very well. i'm to hear and reiterate that we will be reentering that with the department of defense soon. you talk about in detail the international tribunal and i'm talking something, i guess what i envision in that regard iss something separate from the icc. i really appreciate hearing your thoughts on this for. >> they do not have over the crime of aggression brushes not ratify the statute that is given rise to proposals to establish a dedicated special tribunal in this regard.

ukraine is the crime of aggression as the original sin. that unleashed the war crimes and rightfully so. sweet looked at at the different models i drip i bite out as international hybrid tribunal i was guided by five main principles we want to maximizehe nimble and efficient. number three t went to great institution that's legally sound within the un charter system under international law. number four we went to matrix complementary to other efforts out there and clean icc but also the international center for the prosecution of aggression medicine stood up in the hague. wiggins international support for this effort. look at all those factors in various models we landed on a proposal for internationalized

special chamber or special tribunal that will be deeply rooted in ukrainian national system but would benefit from assistance from a number of international sources. states, even if private sector can be assisting this endeavor. this could take the form of personnel the way the nine seasons i was on international court. courts around the world. could beat funding, information sharing it could be based outside of ukraine for security but then moved back into ukraine the time was right. it has the added benefit of continuing to invest and the ukrainian judicial system s prosecutorial authority et cetera. which we know will pay long dividends into the future as ukraine continues to modernize and reform itself and to align itself with the rest ofel europ. that is why and we are proposing internationalized tribunal. we are promoting this in an entity called the core group

ukraine has convened to bring experts together both at a diplomatic level but at a technical level to explore the various models and find consensus to move forward. >> at the really important effort. no i'm out of time but i want to ask one more qio. i was fascinated. we all know common law develops whether it's the annual or international. i was fascinated by i think it was the germans use of what one would call international jurisdiction or unified jurisdiction. i forgot the exact name. atroci. are you familiar with the concept? , is there some thought given to using got is a jurisdictional foundation for this type of an organization?

>> you are referring to extraterritorial jurisdiction, u.s. has not in our own code. >> we have usually an added requirement that the defendant be present here in the united states but it doesn't matter nationality of the perpetrator victim or place or the crime was committed because international crimes all states have been deputized to prosecute these crimes. so i'm very familiar with the german experience it has been remarkable to see they have been able to move against high level figures of the asod regime in syria alsoes members of found themselves in germany and they have i think in many respects inspired other european states to utilize crimes that were on books but had not really been used. aggression does not work as well underr that model precisely because states have not codified crime of aggression in domestic about penal codes there's a sovereign trespassing kind of provision and they are doing some active prosecutions now. crime within their domestic system, but i think

they would like to see an internationalized effort because they see russia's war is not just assault on their territory. but on t assault on the whole international rules based order that you and charter system are at large and they want international community involved in this effort so that's a secondary reason to i think pursue more off an internationalized body that would have a lot of international support. >> i guess i wouldn't be as concerned -- i detected your concern with countries not having a specified statute in place regarding this. i guess where we're with new ground on this new jurisdiction all idea i wouldn't be concerned about the fact that other countries did not necessarily have that in their body of law. so -- hope you'll give that some thought. >> yeah it means they would have to prosecute for war crimes or crimes against humanity and perfect sense many of the act of

aggression are by attacks on critical elements of the civilian infrastructure. so it can be done is the short answer. thawnch. thank you. >> thank you. i'm going to follow-up on senator risch's point and -- reference a resolution that senator cain and i filed today that supports your efforts for international tribunal that takes a different approach that and i want to go through that with you if i might. there's no question about russia's crime of aggression no question about their committing creams against humanity and genocides we have had hearings in this committee that have established that and the fact that this -- all of the conditions for genocide have been committed by russia. and yes, i strongly support our efforts to help the icc. i strongly support our efforts to help the ukrainian prosecutor any way that we can. but these are crime against

humanity and they really do need international tribunal as you've acknowledged. the problem within european model is that you're using the ukrainian system and it raises the question of the perceived impartiality i don't know how you overcome with the method that you are pursuing you will also y have legal immunity clais because the -- entity that has committed or individuals who have been committed these crimes are not going to be party to this. so to me there's a very simple approach. establish it under the united nations -- that's the international body that is responsible ultimately for international tribunals. it's not only bring appropriate attention to this -- these atrocities but gives us a pathway to accountability and gives us the greatest hope that it will deter our future atrocities. so, tell me how, why we're not

going through the entity that would remove any question of perceived impartiality and any question of immunity. >> a yeah thank you for that question senator a couple of responses. number one, i think there are serious concerns moving forward under the general assembly and legal front but also on the practical front so starting with the legal front, the body within the united nations system that has executive power is the security counsel. of course it is completely paralyzed at this matter because russia has privilege of the veto. >> i agree normally but general assembly has ultimate power in the united nations. >> general assembly, however, under charter scm only make recommendations it can't take cohearsive same objection can't come tell states to act nor compel statess to act and legal question is could the general assembly create a court to exercise compulsion andnd hold n individual and -- >> they have a stronger claim

than one state establishing an international tribunal under their law? >> well it would be an international tribunal so the -- >> ukrainian system -- this is the international, i think you run into a comparable if not more severe challenge to thee legitimacy of the -- entities that would be coming before the tribunal. >> as my -- civil procedure professor used to say jurisdiction is power so pongt of power with this ukrainian model is to the ukrainian national system this has plenty jurisdiction over crimes onio ukrainian territory. general assembly doesn't necessarily it is not clear if this would be breaking some serious new ground to try to exercise cohearsive jurisdiction over an unwilling defendant. and then to subject that defendant to a you know limitation on their liberty if that person was ultimately convict sod that's a legal concern but toipght talk about

the practical concern which is -- speaking to our diplomats in new york there's some serious concern about whether we have the votes within the general assembly to create a body of this nature. i so if you look at voting patterns what we see is general -- resolutions that are calling for justice condemning russia actions, et cetera, garner in range of 140 votes. thes minutene that the general assembly is asked to do something that drops considerably so even just blessing the creation of a register of damage, got only 90 something votes kicking russia off the human rights counsel garnered 93 voaghts and serious concern that some of the kind of states that don't want to get caught in the revival of cold war dynamic they don't want to be on record here voting for something. they would on stain so you would lose the legitimacy that -- >> i understand we don't go down that path unless we have the votes i recognize that. but i would think that we know to engage other countries they cannot be a sole u.s.

effort united states cannot sit on the sidelines as you pointed out. it's got ton a collective action that you got to nurture this before you take it to a vote. but it seems to me that the legitimacy here and the final attention given to accountability is worth the consideration. and i would just urge you to -- i'm glad to see that you're looking for international tribunal i think you need one. i just don't know how you can get the remove the challenged when you're using one country legal system for an international tribunal, and to me as an attorney, that seems like it's problematic for the -- for the type of attention you're trying to get international legitimacy. >> there are legal questions as to whether and i interrupted prior questions about immunity and impartiality a nice segway there are questions whether

tribunal under general assembly or within ukrainian system can be over the so-called trika first impression really here. so in this case, the assumption is that we would not have custody over president putin or other members of the trika unless in those positions in which caser international ukrainian court or international body would be free to assert jurisdiction because head of state immunity dissipates when person is no longer in that position. on the impartiality question i think the response to a that is international communities need to step up and invest in this process within ukrainian courts and that ensures that it does not appear to be some of victim justice but this is scrap fair and those are brought to justice. so -- >> i want point out you have the same problems of getting

international cooperation for internationalat tribunal under ukrainian as you would under general assembly perhaps even more senator rickets -- >> thank you very much mr. chairman.to thank you and master. starting in april of last year, the horrific images of corpses littering streets of beauka surfaced and made world realize that putin goal was not just territorialing conquest in ukrainian but the repression of the ukrainian people. and the nightmare that began in buka helicopters to this day in ukrainian and that's why this hearing is so important. the ukrainian people deserve justice and i want to thank you madam ambassador for efforts to help get the ukrainian people that justice. and even though we're talking about a lot of legal and jurisdictional aspects of how to bring putin to justice, i want to make clear that in the short-term the biggest single

thing we can do to make sure ukrainiann and ukrainian people get justice is to make sure that ukrainian j wins and putin lose. that has to happen. and -- that's where if you think about what the biden administration has been doing it's been slow to respond to the request for ukraine regard to type of weapons they need and advance high markets the patriot missile systems abram tanks now f-16 training seems like they're always a step behind almost as if they're trying to live up to winston churchill's that americans will do the right thing after exhausted their possibilities. but in in case you know, erratic and slow behavior is costing ukrainians the opportunity to achieve the victory and also costing ukrainians lives. but the question i want to again too has to do with the abduction that senator risch mentioned about children in ash according to databases russia has

forcefully transferred over 19,000 ukrainian childrenta to s territory. however this numberr is likely much higher. some children have been taken from occupy areas where their parents, asked to sign a release form without being told that the children would be taken away and not coming back. others including those whose parents wereot killed by russian forces have been adopted into russia in february jail universities humanitarian research lab identified 32 immigration camps where children areps indoctrinated in russia history propaganda language and culture. these monstrous abduction are part of a genocide which we've talk about about already to erase ukrainian identity by stealing their future. they have rightly been condemned as a war crime by international community with the icc arrest warrant in march for vladimir putin and his children's rights commissioner maria --

so -- even though we've focused our information on this and attention on this ukraine government and advocates trying to get children back but number is around 400 out of the potential 1900,000 or more and what more can be done to assist as a poser three children myself this is most heart wrenching something having your children taken away from you never to see them again what else h can we be doing? >> it is a horrific future of this war i agree with you as a mother of w two it is terrifying to bhaj children are experiencing in the anguish those parents must feel. and i know that there are -- multiple efforts afoot so some of them are in accountability space but there's also very quiet humanitarian work to get those children back and create a list of them so we know when they were last seen where they may have gone trying to utilize open sourcee investigative techniques to identify them in photographs, for example that the russians are trotting out of, you know, happy ukrainian citizens as they're now being

subjected to reeducation to forget home culture so much that can beir done here i was happy o see the icc move forward on this as their first set of charge it's a great reach of the geneva convention and it will be interesting to see whether additional charges forthcoming on basis of that so i share your concern and i think this c is something we should be working -- across government to rectify. >> is there enough legal support to recover their children? >> there are -- there are. i've been to ukrainian and i met with the teamch that is focusedn the families, survivors and they're working very hard to get them resources they need in order to try to find where children a wrenn do what they cn to get them back and many time it is requires parents traveling to russia to actually physically bring their children back and they're doing that. which is remarkable. >> what about targeting perpetrators of this for again for war crimes prosecution, all of that? are we doing enough there to be able to target people who were facilitating this? erchghts well what is remarkable about this particular scream

that the two key defendants now have essentially admitted to. and i've bragged about it and have, you know, praised each other for what they claim to be doing and humanitarian basis when we, in fact, know there's no humanitarian grounds especially when it is russia itself that is creating the dire circumstances that put those children at risk in the first place. so -- the yale study that you mention which is if you fund bachelor'se state department they're looking through a whole series of open source information including many of the photographs trying to use facial recognition software to identify individuals who may be future defendants under war crime and crimes against humanity for this crime base. >> i have one more question -- thank you. so also, last week i think -- ukrainian government is talking about belarus complicity in removing 10,000 ukrainian children what is state department doing with belarus and themm going along with this horrible crime? >> yeah belarus there's no question is quite complicit in

ukraine and it iss important to focus when we think about the tribunal that belle russian individuals could be and we tend to focus on russia but the fact that they areus complicit and oe of the grounds of committing grounds of aggression is allowing territory to launch aggression against a third state to belarus is implicated in this in this set of crimes. >> thank you very much. thank you mr. chairman. >> senator, thank you mr. chairman and thank you ambassador for being here. there's been a fair amount of discussion about justice for victims of war crimes act that was passed. i was proud to be a cosponsor of that.. and i know that as the chairman and others have mentioned there have been obstacles to actually fully implementing the legislation.im but can you talk about we've talked about dod i understand the national security council has also been obstacle. can you talk about how you're

working in thes interagency process to actually administer this legislation and are there other barriers that you've encountered that this committee could be helpful with or congress would be helpful with? >> yes, thank you we do proceed on basis of interagency consensus so those conversation remain ongoing and we are very grateful to t the new legislatin i know that department of justice as well is quite happy with the new prosecutortorial authorities and they have war crime accountable team an appointed a very seasoned senior prosecutor to be the war crimes counselor, focused on looking at those cases that might have a u.s. as well and -- contradicting to what our friends and allies are doing in their own national systems within europe it is a full court press here. >> are you also discussing idea of restitution and reconstruction and -- i noticed that one of the asset forfeiture items those dollars

put towards ukrainian reconstruction are you discussing how that will unfold as well and can you give us some insights into that? >> that's right, in fact, we've had the first circumstance in which an effort has been it liquidated which is exciting to see this is an enormous endeavor to rebuild reconstruct ukraine given the damage that's brought by russia war of aggression and ukrainianss have a proposal for damages that's been well received by international community and indeed council of european recently at its summit which not had a summit has blessed this projects it would be based in the hay -- the idea is that individuals entity group, businesses can register the damage they have experienced at the hands of russia perpetrators when there's a body of assets those available could be helping to assist individuals to compensate them for the harm, the, you know, tangible psychological harm but small businesses have experienced. so the idea is to build earchl

some sort of a claims commission that would be adjudicate claims and helpom individuals and help businesses get back on their feet. >> i think that would really be helpful and if there's anything that wey can do to be -- to support that. please let us know. >> thank you. you also talked about the commission on aggression that could be formed. one of the other sad commentary on some of the s conflicts is te sexual assault and rape element that is so much a part of crimes and particularly war crimes and, obviously, we've seen a number ofs reports about that with respect to the a war in ukraine. one suggestion that has been made to me that i would like get your -- analysis of is the idea of setting up a separate commission that deals only with those sex crimes.p do you have any thoughts about

whether that might be helpful and if that would set up a duplicate process that would not be helpful or if because that's been such a focus of so many conflicts that that would help to shine a light on our ability to address those kinds of crimes? >> yes. thank you senator shaheen. we know these crimes are historically underreported and under prosecuted. and for c reasons that we all understand including stigma that is f associated with this in families and communities and i think we all need to work to rectify that. one of the main goals of the atroughs if is advisory group and supporting with the u.k. and eu is to bring a survival approach to prosecution in ukraine and that is often first to admit that that was not really thes way they've done things. witnesses were witnesses for the prosecution they were asked to give their testimony and then, you know, asked to go on their way, and he really wants to change that i think he's

genuinely quoted to changing that and thinking about hi war icrime unit is kind of a -- kind of a pilot in a way that could then extend into his other areas of prosecution. so he's very keen to strengthen ability to prosecute conflict related sexual violence and we have a number of experts that have been deployed through the atrocity advisory group that have deep experience in a this y to do trauma inform prosecution. whether or not we need a whole separate body it'sti interestini would like think about it a little bit. obviously, i always want to shed light on it this, on these crimes because they are underreported it is important that we acknowledge they exist and we empower survivors to come forwards and feel safe. speaking about it -- but i doo know that the prosecutor general and international criminal court is very focused on this and they're doing so in a way that's trauma informed and survivor centric. >> and that certainly is appreciated i know -- but that's also very much dependent upon who individual prosecutor is and what makeup of

the icc is thinking about at the time and one of the advantages to codifying this kind of an effort would be that it would make it a focus for the future. >> no i agree completely. >> thank you, thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you chairman mendez and ranking member risch for leading this important hearing and for your joint and clearly shared passion about this. as youea mentioned chairman earlier you and i and a bipartisan group and senators went to the hague, met with the prosecutor the icc many of their senior staff had long conversations about it. and then angted promptly and effectively in a bipartisan way and amended underlying statute. under the i think it's the apsa for many years. the u.s. department of defense and the u.s. government has resisted cooperation support engagement with icc about concern for potential for u.s. service members to at some point

be held in front of the court. we acted toking amend that in the case of ukraine in reliance on the circumstances like many of my colleagues, i am outraged at russia's conduct in ukraine during this war. i believe there's been something like 88,000 documented atroughs if is crime against humanity, you've gone through them my colleagues have gone through them. and i'm grateful for all of the different international partners of the eu and u.n., and icc but i'm struck by two quotes frerlier in this hearing. u.n. response to line of questioning said it's hard to imagine a stapgding us on the sidelines. and you mr. chairman said department of defense doesn't get to choose which laws it obeys. help me understand what the challenge is here in getting our government to cooperate with the icc. you putoo it well --

they've never faced a challenge like this. russia can be counted on not just in the case of the brazilian student to infiltrate their systems to attack witnesses, to undermine chair capacity to successfully prosecute. we have a wide range of important resources we can provide, intelligence documentation financial support, operational advice, partnerships in terms of protecting witnesses. why would we not fully partser in with the icc in this undertaking? >> thank you. we have had a long standing objection to the icc proceeding against u.s. personnel. >> understandable. that guides work all of my interactions with the court that is in essence i thinking thes fear is if we in this matter assist with the prosecution that involves another nonparty state another state that is not ratified icc treaty that we would somehow erode our ability

to protect our own service members -- because we're also we're similarly sichghted in the sense that we are also nonparty states. the reality is that that argument has no purchase before the icc. and all elements of the court has already shown that and proceeded against nonparty states in the burma and ukraine and democrat and in the sights at one point so it has no protective power before the courts. what has protective power i think is engagement, building trustedd relationships, keeping lines of communication open, and -- not committing gross atroughs i- and if there are credible allegations against u.s. service members having a credible process so that we can say we're handling this we're handling thisis ourselves because our service members deserve the full -- constitutional due process protections under the code of military justice so that i think we can help in that matter and

also maintain protections that we have and as i praised they're surgical and leave protections in place that have remain untouched. two other quick questions if i might toha claim act which is 281350 was some time viewed exactly as statute enabling prosecution or action claims for crimes against humanity. that has been narrowed -- why not legislatively strengthen that why not use that as the platform for action by congress? >> i think there is grounds to amend and revisit the very old statute right it was among -- it was founding of our nation and as you mention the supreme court has narrowed it considerably with their doctrine so i would imagine discreet to the statute that would open it back up to individuals that have access to u.s. courts being able to advance claims against individuals or entities.

so long as 14th amendment due process exist over personal jurisdiction. we also met with the prosecute general what else can and should we bend doing to strengthen ukraine ability to investigate, prosecute, hold accountable perpetrators of war crimes in ukraine? >> i think there's more they could do if they have resources to do so in terms of their expert personnel to work side by side with ukrainian prosecutors. i know the attorney general is very to do that he and general have developedo a close relationship very trusting relationship so -- while i'm working through civil society actors through academic entities and experts drawn from the war crime tribunals we have expertise in hogs. i cannot fund that with funding that i have but our office can help with the department of justice so that would be another way that i think we can helicopterpa to assist prosecutr general in the task. thawnch for your work in this

area.sa >> senator, yield. >> thank you. mr. chairman, welcome -- ambassador good to be with you. last month senator rose and i introduced the ukraine human rights policy act. this would among other things establish a process for congress to nominate individuals for human right sanctions through katsa through this legislation, it's our hope and per belief to respond to the goth atroughs if i and continue to uphold commitment to stand with ukrainian andnt fight for democracy as well as their own humanity. can you describe our governments current processes for selecting both on the ground perpetrators and senior officials for targeted sanctions for human rights violations and -- tell me to what extent the process is working or not working. >> indeed thank you senators for

that question. we have a sanctions coordinator now within the united states state department which is very helpful working with treasury andd commerce to coordinate whoe range of sanctioning that do exist. i know we have deployed them robustly in russia context and 4,000 subject to travel bans under 7037c and we have dozens of individuals subjected to the group subject to sanctions so the key, of course, is to have designation packages we need to know the name and in order to tell banks around the world to freeze assets they happen to have them and it is not enough to say there's a grainy photograph of some dude in bucha. we need information so to the extent that we can continue to collect that information from sources ukrainians are keen to assist us in this regard they want sanctions exercise to the maximum extent as possible as well.xe but also civil society actors

with unique sources of information and we have civil organizations that want to feed into these sanction packages. ♪.... were in power to nominate individuals for human rights sanctions through caatsa, how would interaction between your office and the sanctions coordinator have to change? >> i don't know it would. i've had to look at legislation. i have seen the draft text that i'm happy to take that back and give it a give it a close reading. we work quite closely with them. it is their job so we are often more in a support role. we come across names and appropriate in any situation we have sanction authority we will help k s them. we're also quite encouraging of them to make sure our sanctions parallel justice processes have around the world including the icc. we should be sanctioning individual serving prosecuted by the icc. there are reasonable groundsds they make keep accused of a

crime. >> will follow-up later later. if you have any technical feedback we would welcome them. we all agree people commit war crimes and crimes against unanimously held criminally accountable it remains an open question as to how this can best be accomplished but how to assess the likelihood of any accountability for russia's atrocities in ukraine? is it likely to c be confined to those plucked off the battlefield? or is there a way they're sure it's battered and stroke. god willing the conflict thesis. >> my hope is that various pathways to justice that exist will be ready, prepared to move forward the minute there's a target of opportunity. tor be for the finger on the rel challenge which is the custody over the accused. there are individuals in ukrainian custody they have perceived they have thebe abiliy

to proceed we don't get our courts many courts do many don't depending upon the framework. to see that having to answer to those particular charges. the get the final judgment. now, decades after the war in the former yugoslavia and likewise last week went of the few final rwandan look captured in south africa dropped to justice. we have to think about this in terms of generations not the next year. my goal to collect evidence, strengthen the system to the foundation is laid for what we do get that individual who chooses to traffic it's tossed out of russia.

>> you anticipated my next letterec questioning. we would not bank on russian government constituted once violence has ceased cooperated and sent nationals to us. should our bilateral diplomatic behavior towards russia change? until russia were to comply with international criminal justice efforts? >> yes we are all hopeful for a political transformation within russia. the hope is the.. russian people and others in leadership positions recognize the terrible disaster this has been for russia. militarily and standing on the international stage for their international pariah. the passage of resin around the world. many will not be able to travel. you are hearing all sorts of b limitations placed on russian

russian figures we need to strengthen relationships that we had tried to do always with moderates, with reformers of the democratic camp into civil society actors and stand ready to build a society movement within russia. but there's's only someone can o when put in a still in power. >> think itth mr. chairman. good afternoon. as you said in response to senator young got to the core of the issue is this is the long game. but it is essential resend theha message we will pursue the long game and pursue the perpetrators of crimes against humanity and other crimes until we achieve justice. in the example he gave him yugoslavia is a good one.

determinations and findings of war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocidee determinations. unless we can find a way to get jurisdiction over the individual we are not able to follow through the prosecution, is that right? >> that ists right. >> one thing congress did recently was try to provide more avenues for the administration to get jurisdiction over the individual including their extradition. my question is have you been able to use any of those additional tools with respect to prosecuting these war crimes? do you have any plans in place to do so? >> yes, thanks. the d.o.j. is in better position to answer that question. i am grateful to that. i'm very grateful congress recently helped our status with those in europe with prosecute year old authorities and a

constellation of overlappingla statutes to do this work. this is about internationals cooperation. you may have witnessed located one country testifying proceedings against an individual of the third country we need to be coordinated extradition is a key tool. >> are you aware of an example is we the justice department are seeking extradition where a third country is not? >> i'm not. i can know if you will indulge me point out a a little gap that does exist in the penal code i have not mentioned. but the d.o.j. cares deeply about that the ability to seek extradition of a perpetrator would torture a u.s. citizen. because we have present jurisdiction they need to be present in the myspace to press charges against that connect person but we cannot seek their extradition if they are not present. under crimes he required their presence, you have to have presence of the person to press the charges but you cannot seek

extradition unless they are presence of the bed of a catch 22. if you would do amendment to 182340 and usc 2342 allow for jurisdiction if heve knew u.s. citizens have been subjected to torture abroad we could seek the extradition of those in individuals and d.o.j. would appreciate that perkins look forward to working forol you to close the loophole. >> it is inadvertent it's a quick fix. >> let me follow up. which is we pass legislation ciinstructing all agencies in te u.s. government to cooperate with icc and provide evidence that would support their prosecution of war crimes. the defense department is clearly draggingy their feet my question to you is what is the impact of that then? what evidence might we have been able to supply to the icc that

we have not supplied because the dod has not been cooperative? >> we generally do not discuss the types of information that gets shared it is safe to say there is a range of actionable information we have been able to collect that might be helpful to a justice process anywhere. sure that with other entities. we can share that with the commission of inquiry for the event we can ensure that the individual states and maybe prosecute we can ensure that the prosecutor general but we cannot shirk theha icc. >> because of the position they've y taken? and the one agency not consent his deity is that right? as you did hear the secretary of defense of the preparation committee because of the yes or no. right customer at the defense department's not cooperating that way? rate? >> yes. >> thank you, thank you,,. mr. chairman. >> think it mr. chairman in the bathrooms good to see you.

i want to ask you about 2014. a lot of the focus has been on justice and accountability from the february 2022 invasion of ukraine by russia. this invasion began in 2014. in efforts to pursue accountability against russia for abuses in ukraine that began in 2014 progress we forget that, don't wait for this work really did begin in 2014. while you do not see the level of hoar that you see today there were were crimes committed then. we do not even have access to some of those territories to have access. we have as ukrainians take back their territory to see the consequences of russia control and occupation very starkly. there are number of efforts underfoot. the project i am funding we have begun to fund before 2022 is much smaller project we had to

scale that by the massive explosion of war crimes and other atrocities since 2022. there is already prosecutor general in exploring how to bring potential cases individuals have witnesses and evidence available to do that. united nations also has had a long-standing monitoring mission focusedha on ukraine that has bn collecting information from the beginning but that information is available and can be shared with authorities around the world. >> talk to us a little bit about the challenges of dealing with abuses committed by fate nonstate agency. set up with a certain kind of defendant the wagner group is a nonstate actor. talk about the challenges that presents. g >> there's no question it is a maligned force and central

african republic. now were seeing in libya and moving into ukraine they are a nonstate actor. most of the crimes that are prosecutable by the domestic system and others at the icc make no distinction between statenc actors. in crimes against humanity or other degradations they might commit wherever they find themselves . i know the prosecutor of the icc is very interested in making them wagner part because they're operative and so many other situation countries were he already has jurisdiction and is investigating. so to the extent we can be of assistance in that regard that can help further isolate around the world. >> like to change topics. i sometimes do this in a hearing. take advantage of a great witness not on the advertised topic but you have expertise and that is venezuela. while with you here and went to ask about in this hemisphere estimated 7 million people have

fled venezuela's 2015 rivaling the 8 million that fled ukraine. i will be reintroducing the effect human rights in venezuela act which direct department to push for an extension in the un fact-finding mission to investigate gross violation of human rights in venezuela. that mission issued a detailed report last september assessing the venezuelan regime to the states t intelligence services have committed crimes against humanity of killing sexual violence, the icc has indicated its intention to resume thets investigation. what is your a assessment as you liaise with the icc about their ongoing effort in venezuela. document crimes against civilians. ? send her cane this is been a long-standing interest of yours the venezuelan people really do deserve our full attention here. ukraine is important to take my title are serious and the

basilar at large for global criminal justice. i do try to get out into the field of the situation countries and to continue to push for justice there. the fact-finding mission, we supported that very strongly predicted excellent work. the reports are quite telling in terms of documenting various crimes against metadataga been committed across venezuela innocent protesters it comes to members of the opposition. the courtsme have become tools f oppression rather than tools of justice. as you mention there is an icc of the prosecutor has been there. he tried valiantly to work collaboratively with the government to encourage them to do their own investigations here and show good faith and rooting out the perpetrators of violence against protesters and others. he has reached the end of his rope in this regard he's moved tole move forward in a more adversarial context and adversarial posture.

>> is there a chance some of the other natures in that region that resume relations with the columbia, brazil, could if they are willing to do so a pressure the government to be more cooperative with icc? >> instantly hopes up for that case exist because of it then unprecedented collective referral byde that region. this is a region same with international court engaged in venezuela. we cannot manage on international level. we would hope they'd follow up on that commitment and put pressure on venezuelan to cooperate with the work of the icc. to do the hard work. once i'd hoped they would do the same thing since columbia is very much on the frontline of the consequences of the disaster in venezuela. this should not be reticent to call it out and encourage the

government to cooperate with icc. >> i think they see that value and investing in the justice sector here. >> thank you. mr. chair i appreciate it. quick for me thank you for raising these issues brace chair at center cane's concerns and interests in this regard. i appreciate you pursuing it. i'm basilar, let me just say i presided over a lot of hearings. i have declared some of them as the worst hearings i've ever presided over. you were there, right? you know what i was talking about the. >> this is one of the best hearings. ihe appreciate your clarity and your directness in terms of your answers to questions. something is refreshing you could hold the seminar at the state department. [laughter] parts the record for the ceremony open to the close of business on june the first 2023.

please ensure questions for the record are submitted no later than tomorrow for the saints of the committed steering is adjourned. respect my >> [background noises] [inaudible conversations] [background noises]

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