, need to to be humble k we all want to find these really interesting parts of our family history, but don't come in waiting to find a certain thing because that can lead to heartbreak t sometimes. >> fake you. i think that's good advice. much.you so this was a wonderful conversation and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. >> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's stories, and on sundays booktv brings youhe latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 come from these television companies and more including cox. >> it's extremely rare. >> but friends don't have to be. when you're connected, you're not alone.

>> cox, along with these television companies, supports c-span2 as a public service. >> tonights speakerou i'm very excited to introduce you to her, doctor fay yarbrough, professor of history and an associate dean at rice university. doctor yarborough is an expert on 19th century native american history and she's got special interest in the interactions between indigenous people and people of african descent during the 19th century so her first book was

>> we'll have plenty of time at the end.ou the way we do discussion. we this is through the q and a box at any time. feel free to type it in or wait until the end.f we'll get to as many of your questions as we can. within an hour and 15 minutes. around 8:15 eastern time.i i'd just like to say how grateful i am to have our

guest. it wasl. a wonderful book. thank you very much. >> thank you, so much. good evening, it's nice to be hereth with your virtually. thankh you for spending your tie with me and i'd like to thank professor for inviting me and a melinda miller for a stimulating fun chat this afternoon. i'll share some things in a moment. i wanted to share moment.

. the man carrying it when the win with it. it went h around the horses hea. around that time the rain came down hard. we just have to stop the wagon and sat did there. came along more soldiers i ever saw before. all white men and they were died with walnut and butternut. they were the confederate soldiers. davis, a full blood creek indian offers one of the few accounts of the battle of honey springs of late july 1962.

her account explains the roar of gunfire.ro it's off the blank bridge way off somewhere. this is about the far reaching power of battle and publication and on the plain landscape. what do we know -- so, hear i'll

share a space to make sure we are all on the same page in terms of location. so, i'm interested in the southwest corner. this is what i explore in the larger book project. this is my moment of shamelessub plug. dr. qwigley did some of it. this can be found in my new

book. it's best shown by the fact thae they passed the statute deeming it treason to say negative about the confederacy. that's how strongly that are committed toep the cause. by legislature. they could chose to align or remain neutral during the war. they early allied and placed a regiment of troops and brought men on the confederate officers andit paying 500,000 to arm and equip did troops. authorities enlisted the troops and the records titled deject. this is demonstrated by examining the listing

documents. i supplement the service records from firsthand account of civil war soldiers. these were w prepinted forms to facilitatein determining eligibility for pensions and other benefits. this includes a jacket and other cards associated with his record. there were sufficient numbers that the preprinted potion of the jacket first rifles. the jacket has a fill? the blank style. company roll and name and information was preprinted on the form as o well. listed the date and enlistment. this ask an example of one

record. the second he was enlisted and there is information from his company muster role july 18, 1862. this formed the backbone on this talk of military of part of the larger book project. i went through thousands of the records in the reverse background white writing with the handwriting on there and

compiled them into a database. especially useful ask the remarks section. it shows he was present but sometimes rich tidbits about leave and work duedy. payroll form whether they received communetation for clothing generally in the amount of $25. sometimes a bounty pay and petition f for official correspondents regarding the soldier. there areth other miscellaneous documents included in the soldiers jacket. i spent time giving you a description theree is the misconception there aren't a lot of records regarding native populations available. in fact, there are. we can do a number of things in

terms off creative reading of te records we haveee or looking moe deeply to see if there are other records we could find and combine with other information to create a picture of native experience. so, again, just to remind you of the kinds of information in these t records available. given ouril time constraints i will touch on the information you can get from the records. first they indicate more choctaw severed than we knew. the recordsds give us changes taking place in choctaw c society. we can infer connections between those that severed. i will look at what the records can tell us about enlists and how they are based on battle and politicalta activity. they provide a gleams of common

soldiers in the civil war and remind us the war wasn't a rupture between northern and southern stateshe but native groups were drawn in. the contemporary choctaw nation said over 3100 individuals for the totality of the war. they translate to 17 hadn't 2% of the total population or 20% of the choctaw population if you exclude enslaved persons. this was 14% of the population and 8.3% of the confederacy or border state. if you include the choctaw 12.5 severed while the 3100

soldiers might seem like a small number. as a t propotion of the populatn it's large and substantial. so, this figure, though, of 3100 troops is lower than the 10,000 troops coronal douglas predicted they would provide in a litter to the confederacy, jeff davis, given the number of the population was less then 23,000 people.d cooper w wrote the choctaw can furnish 10,000 warriors. they are extremely anxious to form another regiment. the data included in the compiled military records tell us about individual soldiers but the changing nation of the choctaw society. the s names can demonstrate the

influence of euro americans and changes ine practices. this is an look at some of the names we can see in the records.ou you will see several thomaser jefferson, jefferson david, private age 25. also, more traditional name like chubby. you can see blended names were there is a european root of a name but combined with choctaw name and prominent families. the leflorees and mccurtains are important. something as simple as these names on the enlistment records

reveals t broader changes that were taking place in choctaw society.ol the age data provides opportunities for comparison with similar data on american soldiers.rs just summarize to say choctaw soldiers the average age was a bit older than the average age of a enlistees in the union army and little data we had on confederate soldiers. again, they are older than americand counterpart. the age plus name data can reveal relationships between soldiers. there iss.s. a cluster of five greenwood enlistees age 20 to 28. we wonder if alex, gibson, and

harris that mustered into the same company on the same day were allac related. were they brothers or cousins that enlisted together. they also joined cubbee's company in 1864. theyey were a father and son tht joined together. these are maddenly silent about connections but other data from the indian pioneer similar to the wpa slave narratives but the informants are people that lived in indian territory during the h century,th data ta along with personal papers can augment the military records to confirm relationships. we know, for certain.

the union and confederate army family members did join together. cousins,on brothers, fathers, ad sons. we shouldn't be surprised we saw these patterns in the choctaw nation. another record or data that's straightforward is the question of company assignment. individuals divided into company a, k, or second d. as common among many other confederate troops. choctaw were known by names connecting to their commanding officers. this was also known as walking state company and company i. we have other companies captain colman e. nelson or captain

edmond garden's company. these names were preprinted. this is how frequently they occurred and people knew these companies by other names. the use, again, of choctaw language and english names were noteworthy. sintie is snake. that's walking snake company isa a translation of his name. i think it's interesting to ponder that traditional choctaw language name was included. similarly, shema means to embellish.

perhaps, thisoh job gibson also known as captain shemonto is a traditional name. the presence of the choctaw traditional names on civil war military records shows how much thiss american event included others that didn't identify as american. the date on the records, the date on the muster reveals patterns when and were soldiers enlisted. almost 70% of the records include this information that makes sense if you think about trying to track of how long the enlistment period lasts. you want to keep track so you know when there term of service

should end. we can see, in these records. most of the enlistments took place in 1861. june and july per popular months to enlist. 950in soldiers enlisted in the o months alone. this choctaw enthusism is more remarkable given they didn't sign a treaty until july of 1861. m there were choctaw men committing to fight before the choctaw legislature officially sided with the confederacy. the enthusism is high. the work was signed before. the government passed a resolution in support of the southern state in february of 1861 the formal treaty

alignance didn't come to later. the resolution was than response to the february 4th meeting of six southern states to form a provisional government and form the confederate states of america. this must have been in response to the meeting. the choctaw might have been waiting to the succeeding states before expressing support. the u.s. indian agent enrolled natives before an official treaty of aligns was signed. musterer roles show 180 troops. youan can see the description he in the northeast corner of largf

slaveholders in the area. that explains the high number of enlistments in the area or this might have been prompted by the neighboring state of arkansas to joinhe the confederacy one week prior on may 7, 1861. fort washington, sulfer springs. sugar loaf, perryville were all locations for clusters of enlistment in 1861. each severed as capitol of the choctaw nation. these seemed like logical sites for forming companies.

in 1862 enthusism was still strong and nearly 800 enlisted. january, march and july were popular time. the 200 men that joined the regiment were spurred to action by the november and december battle that took place in indian territory. round mountain and more. all three were efforts to subdue wealthy creek indian and his followers.s. initiallyo hoping to remain neutral they disagreed with the creek council's decision to ally with the confederacy. other native nations of negotiating treaties of alliance indiansnm loyal were around. we can see that in the rendering

here. she promised freedom for enslaved freedom and many pledged to join him. one woman spoke about her family joining. our familyas grew up with them there were ala lot of creek indians with them when they made a run away. many free blacks also favored h his union and joined the loyal creek camps that were growing. some estimated that opthleyahola joined so only 2,000 fighting men. cooper had 2,000 federates to attack pursue troop of

opthleyahola. he fleed to kansas. there were a number of deaths 105.er fourse of which was former horss that's something we can talk about in the q and a.is several were from the campaign for opthleyahola. the cherokee minister wrote in 1862, he heard about 14 men lost fighting. theem additional death came from the texas calvary that coronal cooper called in. despite thee losses the confederateau forces proclaimeda victory. they forced so many into kansas andpo neutralized the threat. with this threat remain outside of indian territory.

missionary warned once the conditions improved there were times in the territory again unless therere is considerable force of confederacy to impose old posey, another nickname. if this was widespread among the choctaw in particular it might explain the burst offendlessness in january of 1861. the men joined the regiment at eagle town. they were all located in the southeastern corner of the nation closer to texas and arkansas. 230 more men were marched from the same area. the companies raised in red river county in response to the b battle at p ridge that

was at the tavern in nearby r arkansas. here is oneht representation ofe the battle at t ridge from 1889. b after the war but still in the 19th century. here a is a 20th century rendering, again, we can talk about if you like that comes from the trading card company. this was produced in 1952 as part of a celebration of the war's centennial. it's the art of bob. the back of the card has a summery of the war and the whole collection included 88 cards, 87 with images and a card that was the checklist so you knew you collected all of the cards. you can see s the difference in terms of the depiction of the 1h

century verses the depiction in the 20th century. i'll pause' here. i don't want to leave us on this. we will goo forward to battles. you can see battles takes place. the a first mounted rifles faild to arrive on time and the confederate soldiers beat the troops. they left the indian territory isolated. the proximity of the fighting m might have spurred confederate choctaw companies to form. june and july brought another 200 troops into service. i hope, what i'm giving you a sens' of and trying to argue for, you can see that these battles can spur enlistment activities. enlistments are happening in

the larger world were they pay attention to events and politicall activity and battle. this can encourage or discourage enlistment among choctaw troops. so, because i want to be mindful of our time and i always have more stuff then i should. i'll jump ahead a bit. just to mention the massacre that took place in the least district of the chickasaw nation. i wantis to bring this up becaue it demonstrated during the war there would be tensions with end groups and tensions betweenha native groups that are magnatied with what is happening with the war. the wichita agency was at the

center of the action. they claimed their treaty was signed underd duress. groups such as the others were done willingly. as texans continue to make encouragements.. tension rose to the point that indian agent matthew moved his family to it safety of sherman, texas. this is members of the shawnee tribe infiltrated the agencies. come confederate agencies joined because of their flustrations of unkept promises. reports of o a boy and suspected cannablelism they eyed them.

they reported that they lost 23 warriors and 100 of their women and children in the massacre. the american civil war could exacerbate tension withins natie groups and between native groups p echoing the notion of e war. that could pit them against each other. rather then stokent enthusism ty spoke about how convoluted the alliances could be and persistence of old grievances. by 1862 the numbers declined sharply. 189 soldiers enlisted. we chart more then 1,000 enlistments in 1861. the civil t war had gone on much longer thenin expected. fighting and being poorly

provisioned extinguished before the war. as stated here i'm sick of war. surly, many soldiers would have agreed with the sentiment. captain davis perkens resigned his commandd in the first regiment of 1862 because of infirmity but also stated inn last but not least they knew the suffering of civilians as the war continued. the choctaw that did occur with nono enlistments after july.

of course, in january of 1862 we have the emancipation. whilee it was unclear if the proclaimmation applied to indian territory. the news spread. troops sometimes informed enslaved people of their change in status. so, this woman, charlotte johnson white learned of emancipation hedger soldiers arrived at the plantation. perhaps, more relevant to the military enlistments was the activity in the cherokee nation in 1862. a pro union fangs rightful authority torn govern and establishes a new legislation ad

of the first acts was to abolish slavery. many cherokee slaveholders didn't acknowledge this but the actions brought abolition and thend prospect of emancipation o the heart of indian territory. for some, choctaw events might have harden their resolve and let the clusters of enlistments andhe areas near the chubbee district.d this lead many other choctaw to see the see the confederate chances and soften the overall enlistmentnt numbers. in july, battles took place at cabin creek and honey springs.

you can see the choctaw nation map up here and some of the enlistments took place. if we go to the battle, hear we go. you can see the battle at cabin creek and honey springs. this also effected the numbers. cabin creek l was located along the supply route removing supplies from kansas to indian territory. the battle consisted of a series of families that attempted to capture supplies. they failed and blamed the defeat on famine. more remarkable is the diversity of forces present. troopsis wisconsin and kansas. confederate indian troops. texas partisans, and the first volunteershe clashed on the battlefield. private christopher kendle of

the calvary described the forces attempting the crossing. they assumed command that consisted of the indians. the men of the second colorado and captain charles steward company. majorap foreman of the third indian advanced. together they preserved the country. in fact, historian suggests the triracial army could have been a model foror future race relatios in the united states. here, you can see a pixeluated

version.n. likeon cabin springs honey spris was along the important supply route of the texas road. in july of 1862 confederate forces used this as a attack on fort gibson and push the federal forces out of indian territory. soldiers at honey springs former harper weekly and brought in supplies and preparation for the march against gibson. this included native-american ancestory. a fact not lost on the men involved. coronal james m. williams told the volunteers this is the day we have been waiting for.

this is for the freedom of their children ando children's children. they, the rebels received a lesson that taught them not to despise onn the battlefield. they realized they had no rights that thepi white man would respect. coronal williams understood the meaning of colored troops on the battlefield for themselves and the men they faced. privateou edward was on the othr side of the battle line and thee colored troops made an impact on him as well. he remarked. it wasn't long before the federal calvary found us and came over with nigro troops. it was a stand up fight. i never saw so many nigro troops

in a fight. soldiers were impressed by the combat action of colored troops during the war. they failed because of supplies and combined the actions of the two regiments. thenu confederates outnumbered e federalled but outdone 3 to 1. the inferior quality meant the downpour during the battle of july 17 rendered their arms useless. as the fight raged on the home guard misleadly the 20th and 29e retreating and was met with the en divorceable back. than the federal troops picked up the colors. walker arrived with choctaw and

chickasaw troops. they remembered the followed us a half mile out on prarie. they ordered the supplies and ammunition located in honey springs. they lead the squad. formerly enslaved person remembered the s smoke and fires the yankees burned up honey springs. in reality he saw the result of confederate action rather then

federal action. some enslaved people saw the battleea and retreated. davis heard the guns going all dayev and in the evening. they come riding and running by where we is and don't make no difference how much they holler. they can't make it stop. this matchesma the comments that confederate troops scattered that caused confusion. privateiv edward reported that s companyy stampeded and broke for thet mountains and almost got away. banks' uncle jacob told her the fighting at honey creek was the most terrible fighting he has seen but the union soldiers went back to fort gibson.

rebels wereth chased all over ad couldn't find each other. he returned with the troops. a disheartened private from theh texas calerervy confirmed uncle jacobs accounts. they were brought back to texas. we got soe much in the stampede wewe were three days getting together. they scattered across the country and didn't regroup for a counter attackme or another engagement. in battle proved to be the largest battle in indian territory.

9,000 here. nearly 6,000 close to 6,000 confederates and. union soldiers. the confederate lost what they opened for union control and allowed them to take fort gibson. some viewed honey springs as the turning point. white troops l no longer defendd the area in an organized manor. they gave federal troops an avenue into the nation this is as the fierces of the indian nation. given the scale of the fighting there comes as no surprise the first didn't see any more indian enlistments. back on theirere heels and choctaw soldiers might have used the effort as a losing

one overall. the service records for the soldiershe of the first choctaw provided windows into the experiences of civil war soldiers in indian territory. they didn't leave records such as journals or diaries. service records includes information about when and where they muster for battle and the kind of work they performed. the accompanying records and service jackets while uneven offered gleams of life for the troops. some of the records i haven't discussed track the movement of prisoners of war and showed some soldiers would chose to wear the oath of loyalty and join federal unions. other prisoners of war were exchanged. the records also included more mondain and consequential information such as petitions

for promotion, letters of resignation and certificate of disability. they offer the opportunity to add to their status about two movements and battle losses. the picture emerges on enlistees at the beginning of the war. the support waned as the war progressed.. choctaw confederates weren't so different from southern confederates in many respects. thank you. thank you very much. that was >> thank e you very much. that was great. we have goode questions coming in. i'd like to encourage the audience to keep the questions coming in. we saw a few questions if the choctaw people sided with the

confederacy. both people are asking this question partly on what you said and part on it was one of those cases where they joined with the confederacy because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. they had a very strained issue with the united states. one of the people asking this kind of question draws a parallel with the american revolution with some native-americans sided with one side or the other because of the way they had been treated in the past. what would you say about the primary motivation of the choctaw siding with the confederacy. >> i think they were interested in a few things. they were interested in protecting their sovereignty and preserving their identity of the people. i think, i sometimes make the joke that, i don't know if

everyone will like the joke. ike made the joke for the choctw the argument had real meaning. the choctawhe understood this aa moment they could protect sovereignty. people who are claiming to want to have state rights will recognize this. theyey promised a lot like recommending sovereignty. the costs relating to the war. i think one layer is attempting to preserve choctaw sovereignty. another level of supfort has to do with their participation. they are slaveholders and have

an economy that slavery is an important pause and produce for the market. the mix of what they produce is different. they produced more corn then cotton. they are using slave labor and they are creating a society that has a racial hierarchy. so, i think that is another reason why they support the confederacy. they are -- the funds that are due to the choctaw nation, a lot

of them are southern companies and concerns. there were a lot of factors that pushed them in that direction. i think, i argument that paramount is the concern for sovereignty and protecting choctaw sovereignty that's connected to they promise to protect that. so, that's an important factor in their decision. say they generally saw the choctaw as the

equivalent. saw them as fellow slaveholders that had the common interest. was it an alliance of the confederacy. >> i would go with the later. an alliance of convenance. i say that because there are moments were they are coming to the na tiff nations because they see the territory they don't want them fighting b with the federalt' government because its making an end road into a place were federal troops can easily attack southern states. theren is that that's motivating the desire to have native nations as allies. there arehe these, they recognie they are slaveholders and trade with them. there are moments in the treaty agreement they make with the

choctaws where confederate government w asserts authority n a way they don't respect their sovereignty. when they make the offer of you can have some one be an delegate in our government, they then want to super advice the election. why does the confederate government need to watch the election? they have been conducting elections foror sometime and thy know what they are doing. so,, you know, moments like that or where they make stipulations in the alliance that it's the choctaw's land or make any land session agreements with the federal government, they forfeit all of the land, that's the kind of requirement you make when you see yourself in some position of authority over that population. than you have these statements

from confederate soldiers where they talkhe about native troops. they talk about them in pretty racist terms. the language is familiar if you look at how soldiers, white soldiers talk about colored troops. of discipline. don't take care of their uniforms. that kind of language. there is definitely, they are not seeing them as equals. >> yeah. yeah. a different kind of question. a military question. you told us about a few battles close to indian territory the choctawid soldiers fought. didea they fight in any battleso the east. >> the native nations make a requirement of their allow answer with the confederacy they

can't be asked to fight outside indian territory without their permission. right, so they feel very committed to staying in the indian territory unless they agree to do it. the e example that comes out is it's were there is a massacre of colored troops and it's the choctaw troops that are described as being vicious. they can go outside of indian territory.y. not on -- they won't go on the eastern sea board. i'm sure there might be examples of scout. are scouts or whatever thatha are in other

areas. o i haven't seen evidence of them goingg all the way to the easten sea board. theye are quiet clear they have toto agree if they are going too outside of indian territory. >> all right, we have a few questions aboutpl the choctaw people. generally, what was slavery like in the choctaw nation? another question aboutut either the choctaw or crickasaw made a statement about slavery or enslaved people meaning their role and civil war and the place of slavery as motivation for the choctaw or chickasaw involvement. >> in terms of what slavery looked likee in choctaw nation, there is a whole chapter in my book.

for the chickasaw nation you can see thatt in barber's book. it's was like slavery in the american south. the mix of crop production could be different. there are large slaveholders producing cotton for market. the examples abroad marriages where the enslaved partners don't live on the same plantation. we see evidence of that in choctaw nation. iou would say something that's a little different in choctaw nation you see examples of en slaved people severing as interpreters.. sometimes you have enslaved people that might have been enslaved in o a place like geora

and alabama that speak english and versed in the choctaw nation. you have thates happening were there are enslaved people severingro as interpreters. that would come as a surprise. in many ways it was verisimilar to the larger american south. there are -- there are some accounts that you see wherein slaved people in their autobiographies that said k nate masters are kinders. we have accounts of them being cruel. i think there is a spectrum of treatment like in the larger american wouth there wasof a spectrum of treatment of enslaved people by masters that very base on the master not because they were in a native nation. if you take the accounts of some

white southerners that describe what is happening in choctaw nation and in the indian territory they will often say things which i think we can assume are tinged by racism. indianho masters are lazy and don't know how to control their slaves or don't know how to do wor' or not good masters or effective masters. i don't know if we really have evidence of that or if that's the just the narrative they are using to say something negative. h i lost the second half of the question. >> was there an official statement from the choctaw and

chickasaw came out and said we did this because of slavery or slaveryoh means this to us? >> oh, in that kind of way? um, there are, let me think. there are statements where the, like where the principal chief or other officials will say things like we are southern in every respect. they say things like that. we are southern in every respeco or talk about the purchase and sale of enslaved people. there is a letter from a prominent choctaw where he spoke about why lincoln is a problem and they are not for emancipation l or letters where they say the same thing you see white slaveholders say, you know, like, say howdy to my

people for me. their enslaved people. it's very similar in the way they talk about it. do we have an alexander steven corner stone moment. no, we don't have a corner stone moment that the nation is built on this. no, we don't have that or not that i have found yet. >> i like how you talked about the records and you showed us examples you spoke a fair amount about the militants and how you approach those and thoughtful and interesting things to say. i wonder if you could share that with the audience, you know,

what that is like and how you use them and what kinds of cautions you have to take in using those? >> yeah, so, it's folks aren't familiar with them the work part of the administration, the wpa slave narrative are an amazing resource. i think, at this point there is 50 volume. they are organized by state. that's a bit misleading because, like the texas narratives are people who were interviewed in texas. not necessarily been in place in texas. these narratives developed because during the great depression, you know, when they put people to work they are also putting people, writers to work to collect thehe narratives. the work starts with black academic who send their students

out from historically black colleges to go out and interview formerlyly enslaved people. they realized, that it's, you know, theyet are getting older. 60 years after emancipation. this is a valuable resource that's fading away. the black academics do early interviewing of people and the administration takes that up and have them go out

that many years after. there's a great article in the journal of southern history that's about how maybe these narratives tell you more about the moment of the great depression then you do about the past because there's a lot of description about foods but if you think that people who are

literallyde who are starving because of the depression, you can imagine a lot of discussion of good food that you had in the past. but other problems include that some of the interviewers, some of the people set out to interview the formerly enslaved people, are related to the people who enslaved the person being interviewed, right? so that's awkward. we see a difference in terms of, for instance, how the informants talk about punishment if the interviewer is white or if the interview is black, right? there's also some things that you have to think about in terms of how the interviewer is rendering the persons voice. so there are these narratives where the interviewer asks the

question, the informant responds and where the interviewer includes this in the transcription which i always find kind of amazing. is this how you talk when you're with your own people?ou i want you to talk to me the way that you wouldou talk to n people. so you have this first part that's in standard english, then once the person has asked the informant i want you to talk to me the way you talk to you on people, everything else is in dialect pair up b with and you wonder if it is in dialect because a the person actually spoke to you in dialect or did you decide they should be speaking inn dialect, right? so i'm giving you all these reasons why we have to be careful or a little bit skeptical of these sources. however, if you use them carefully, if you think about like another transcription problem, i don't know how old i am, itt will say. i don't know how old i am.

but the person will write it as i don't know, n-o instead of i don't know peter how do you know your informant doesn't know the difference between n-o and 202-748-8003 or if you read them carefully and then compare them to other kinds of material that we have, look for patterns withn the narratives we see a common thing mentioned by many informants over geography, right, then you can make some good suppositions about how accurate they are. the last thing i will say about that is, two things i will say about them. one, they are held or to f scrutiny that sometimes this seems like that other source is

not aboutd black people are not held up to. we should be asking these questions of all of the sources that we look at, why is it that the sources inn particular have to be so concerning for people? so that's one peer and number two is that there's this amazing opportunity to from enslaved people in their own voice, as much as we can see that as her own voice. that is, it's so unique that we have that, that we have this way to access some of their thoughts and feelings. for population that was illegally entered legallyou prohibited from gaining, supporting themselves at this time. so i think they are really valuable and really powerful peer if it also they sometimes include photos. so you can actually see the person being intervieweded which

again i think it's amazing to tell my students in class all the time. slavery is not as far away from the present moment as we think. these are people from the 20th century who were alive and experienced enslavement, right? that it's not the distant past it's much closer than perhaps uncomfortably close to us in time. >> absolutely. i couldn't agree more. maybe we can move on to the postwar period black w minutes which also get into in your book. one of the questions is about relations with the u.s. government, and so attitudes towards the confederate governmentft after the war after the confederacy was defeated. i guess one would ask it would be, the choctaws regret what they've done and did they suffer fromhe what they have done in te relations to the u.s. government after the war?

>> yeah appeared so which will be interesting because you get a kind of rewriting of what happened later. i give all these examples of wow, vendors and listing for the treaty of alliance has even been signed. they are thronging these locations in order to sign up to muster and for service. what you get after the war is you get statements from the principal chief that say things like we had no other choice. we were forced into this position. we would've chosen something else if we c could have. you definitely get a rewriting and a minimization of that enthusiasm and desire d to enlit that we see every look at these records. so that definitely happened. yet

definitely affects the relationship between native nations and the federal government. they get reconstructed just like the larger south does and so there's you know a treaty that forces them to accept formerly enslaved people that they owned right so they don't have to take formerly enslaved people from texas say, right? they have to accept them as citizens and because land is held in common this gives those freed people land. and that's a huge difference obviously than what happens in the larger south right? so for the freedman, it's a it's a very different picture because they're in choctaw nation or nation or chickasaw nation versus in georgia or alabama etc. they get access to land now, do they get access to the same amount of land as other people

as citizens by blood? no, but they still get access to land and that has real consequences which melinda miller could tell people all about right? so there's that consequence for the freed people, but the larger consequences that the federal government can use the participation of the choctaws and the chickasaws and the cherokees on the side of the confederacy to make more inroads to make inroads on native sovereignty, to be punitive in ways that then allow them to get access to more land and to chip away at native sovereignty and native self-government. so there are definite consequences, bad consequences for having made that decision. >> right. you mention the choctaw, the chickasaw immaturity has been similes in a similar boat and

situation here one attendee is asking about the comparison between the way those three nations treated formerly enslaved black people after the war. you mentioned in the choctaw case that they were required to give black people citizenship of a kind, maybe not full citizenship. was not the same in all three nations or was it different? >> so i should first say that initially when the federal government makes this demand, they say or the people, the freed people will have to leave, the choctaw nation says yes, make them go so their initial response is no, we don't want to make them citizens and you should, and the federal government withholds money waiting for the choctaws to citizens ofake

these folks. and in the federal government gives them the money and so the choctaw government sayse yeah, e still want them gone. you gave us the money. we told you we didn't want them here. so the freed people actually exist in a weird kind of legal limbo in choctaw nation until 1883 until they passed a bill to clarify their status. cherokee nation, since that's a the subject of my first book, they do i things like put in a newspaper free people which is tough because some cherokee and slavers actually. did what many other southerners do in refugee elsewhere and you know took their enslaved property to texas and so, you know, it's hard for the again a largely illiterate population you put an ad in the newspaper that says hurry back if you want

to be eligible for citizenship, right? that's tough. so the cherokee nation does that and they they like the choctaw nation? are forced to grant citizenship? grant citizenship, but then do all kinds of things to limit your political rights, right? so they're the freed people are able to be citizens and to access land but they are there are other kinds of limitations placed on political rights and civil rights. yeah. >> yeah. well, on that note, i'm afraid to say that we are actually out of time. i really, really enjoyed our conversation. i want to think the audience for providing us with great questions. i apologize if we didn't get to your question but i really appreciate all that i also want to say i appreciate the sentiments of the people who

simply say, this is a great talk, thank youi very much, and that kind of thing, guys. i couldn'to agree more. so thanks to the audience. thanks to the donors to the virginia center of civil war studies. they are very generous and they have been very generous over the 20 or so years the center has been in operation, and they make possible everything we do. so thank you. but most of all thank you to our speaker for tonight, dr. yarbrough, for giving us such a wonderful talk, answering the questions as well. we really appreciate the conversation at the time you took. edgy when i think is going to be interested to rush out or at least go to the website of their choice and purchase your book, "choctaw confederates," eddie think you'll enjoy it. intimated in the q&a session, there's lots moree in the book and you felt about even tonight so it is definitely worth going out and getting it.

>> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's stories, and on sundays booktv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more including charter communications. >> charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers and we are just getting started building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. >> charter communications along with these television companies supports c-span2 as a public service. >> i'm alice baumgartner an assistant professor of history at the university of southern california, and this is my first in-person conference sincein the pandemic. and after two years where giving a conference paper w