james rosen author of clear, rise to greatness 1936 to 1986 talks about the first of the two-part biography of the supreme court associate justice. >> excesses movement, unrest taking the sentencing and all that shapes in ways that made him a better justice you can understand how he got to be justice scalia without understanding. >> sunday night 8:00 eastern are you spans q&a and listen to q&a on podcast, free c-span now. >> it doesn't just look like this, it looks like this for americans and see at work.

get informed straight from the sources unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the nation's capital to wherever you are. c-span powered by cable. >> you opened your most recent book with this quote. the complexity devised your books the usually the way. >> rick does a tremendous job itself and it is true. no historic event happens, it is tied to many things in research

and writing. >> want to read a quote from you from 2021 in the times review. a lot of people want to learn things, they want nonfiction oks to reflect what they already believe. they reinforce their opinion and what books that tell them everything they believe is right and the other side is worse than i thought. if you look at the bestseller list for the last several years, there are three categories represented. the first by political commentators associated with one side or another talking about how the nation is in danger of

opposition. america is going to hell. ... and the third category is what i call the magic button here ten ways you can make your fortune, nine ways tog ensuring a happy marriage. there are fewerer and fewer tits represented on the bestseller list that are simply in-depth, fact filled, objective look at certain aspects of american history. but there are still people who want to read those and it's so important to get the history down. that's what i try to do.

>> host: d tell us vin jeff guinn, what do bonnie and clyde, wyatt earp, jim jones, david karesh, charles manson have in common, people that you written about? is there a similar, is there a thread through that? >> guest: oddly enough there is. my goal is always been to write books that capture the suite of american history from the final assembly of the west to the present day. in each of the subjects are iconic. we remember them. people tend remember them in different ways, and a lot of the time they want myth rather than factor i always thought the facts are far more interesting than anything could be made of. when i pick a subject complex use manson as an example, what i wanted to do is write about the late 1960s in america, which in terms of a chaotic time makes today look peaceful when we are

all living in unison. to write about that era you need someone or something from that era that will make readers want to pick up the book and open it. for better or worse, charlie manson represented a lot about the late 1960s, the culture at the time, the things people wanted to talk about, the things people got obsessed with. so ite wrote a book about manson but it's really about the late 1960s. everyone you name is representative of a certain area in america, what people were doing, thinking, believing at the time. >> host: regardless other topics can you tell me if i'm wrong about this, i find in your writing that you creature subjects and topics with respect, maybe respect isn't the right word but that's what struck me. >> guest: thank you for saying that. i think the worst thing you can do if you want to write a book about some aspect of history is to go into it thinking you

already know everything you need to know about it and you've already formed opinions about everyone you're going to write about unshakable. people who take that approach are really only telling readers what happened, some dates, some names. i think it's important to try to learn how things happen and why they happened and what things earlier might have precipitated the events that bring about bonnie and clyde's short two year spate of crime. if you do that you may not agree with the people who are the subjects of the book, but you can at least demonstrate understanding of what made them become what they were here and if you can do that that i think readers not only get a better sense of their but a better sense of the time they lived in. if you can do that i think the book is succeeded. >> host: when it comes to bonnie and clyde i almost felt

sorry for bonnie because most of that to you she was in pain from being shot and riding around in a ford through undeveloped america. >> guest: you see, that was what i need about mythology. there was a wonderful movie, 1967, 1968 about bonnie and clyde, was fascinating. he went to the movie, he watched it, you would were just gt and at least 5% of it was historically accurate. it was a fine movie but it was entertainment. i wanted to know what they were really like, and bonnie parker is a poor girl coming from a dreadful doll islam. her dream is to be famous, to be a world-famous poet or actress. people didn't come looking for pulitzer actresses where bonnie lived.pu she was tiny. she was theli brightest pupil throughout her school years but girls in those days didn't matter how smart they were, she

wanted fame. shett wanted attention. and for reported, when she got to get desperate for a poor kid, when she got together with clyde barrow and the newspapers did somethingg to write about beside thee depression and foreign farm foreclosures, here's the romeo and juliet of, crime pulled off their daring robberies and high-speed escapes. and they were bumbling criminals. they didn't rob banks much because they weren't sophisticated enough to do it. if youo look at them from the aspects of poor kids who when they have no other option in life, when they are ambitious, after turn to something illegal, that doesn't forgive the crimes they committed. people died. it's horrible. but at least it lets us understand why to them it was the obvious and the only way out of the poverty, poverty-stricken

lives they were going to be living otherwise. >> host: in the same light, how did a movie and the mythology develop around the okay corral? wasn't that big of a deal? >> guest: it was a big deal in a different way than it is remember dick let's first state the obvious. it was not issued out peer it was a police stop to take a couple weapons that went bad and it did not happen in the okay corral. but when western history became a thing in america around the turn of the 20th century, 1900s, bat masterson who we remember seeing on tv was entered with a bowler hat and they came to was actually a gambler in the buffalo hunter turned journalist, made his living writing these wonderful tales of authentic western heroes that still walk among us. why he picked was wyatt earp who

had a checkered past that best. and that five blue shootout at the o.k. corral, that's what we remember, the guns drawn around all the horses and everything else, bodies flying, but with the o.k. corral really meant was this was a time when the survivors, the brothers and doc holliday, were brought to trial for people dying at the hands using guns while they were acquitted, the case got great coverage and it really sent a message out to the frontier before you could always use the excuse if you pulled your gun and kill somebody, well, i thought he was going to kill me so i i went first. this meant law, the restrictions of law had come to the frontier and were going to there to stay. that's what was important about the subsequent trial.

the gunfight itself at the o.k. corral was popular mythology that help bat masterson sell his stories to a lot of newspapers, formed form the basis of a bunch of moviesot that people still like watching to this day. but it wasn't really what happened. >> host: how is it that wyatt earp became the known herb over virgil who is actually the sheriff into stone? >> wyatt earp in his law enforcement days was never as like to say in texas come the head honcho he was always one of the deputies who had to do all the work that the sheriff didn't want to. when wyatt was working for the town of wichita and law enforcement his job was scraping dead animals off the street and the sidewalks. but wyatt was friends with the notorious doc holliday, and you can give doc credit.

he was notorious even in his own times. and he looked right, is tall striking handsome man who was greatly ambitious. he wanted to be rich. he wanted to be famous. he wanted to be well-known. and in his later years after his name had become familiar to readers across the country through the newspaper articles, he worked to try to get his memoir out to take advantage of that. and so the marketing of wyatt earp is greatly responsible for we rememberat today. again, the truth is so much more interesting about a multidimensional man who, like all of us, had his good points and bad points but he was ambitious to make something of himself or his only regret i think at the end of his life was he was about to really get famous but he didn't make any money out of it.

>> host: sitting here in tucson or what, 45 minutes, an hour from tombstone arizona? the founding of tombstone, how did it become a town? >> guest: tombstone was one of those towns across the frontiers of america in that era where there were great mineral deposits discovered here in tombstones case, silver. the apaches had been moved out or at least partially moved out, and so l the minors came in, the prospectors and when they found a place that they settled in and actually begin producing large quantities of valuable minerals, again silver in tombstone mostly, that's when all the businessmen came roaring in. you needed restaurants for, you needed bars where they could drink. you needed ladies of the evening so they could have a little companionship.

and the towns would spring up and mostly died out within a few years when the mineral deposits are all used up. tombstone lasted a little longer than that, and it's still there, and for a lot of people it's the chance to gohe to where the old west stew really exist this is exactly what it looked like an the simulated shootout at the o.k. corral is exactly how it happened. people love going to tombstone. >> host: what is elected as a touristis attraction? >> guest: i say this with respect for the people in the town who have managed to survive and even thrive by making use of the things that happened there. for wild west history buffs it's the equivalent of disneyland. you can go there, you can meet larger-than-life characters. you can have a couple thrill rides, so to speak, and you can

feel like youan are back there just like it was. except there's nobody who's going to shoot you in the back. there's no drunken minors staggering around and there's nn dead animals in the street from jeff guinn, one of the things about the last gunfight that struck me was that every western town thatt you charted and researched cap gun laws. at that point there were no handguns allowed in the city limits. >> guest: see now here's the wonderful thing about writing history and a hope about reading history. one of the things i firmly believe is that history is cyclical until we make a final effort during the time of the earps in tombstone things with the great debates of the day. government, which did we need and how much of our lives should government stay the hell out of? immigration, we can't have these people crossinge american bords

and taking jobs away from real americans, andre gun control. this is my gun pick if i want to wear in town, who are you to say i can't? and yet the v pple today who sort of idolize the old west as they would think we could stroll around downtown with our sixx shooters scrap to both thighs with my trusty winchester or shotgun across my shoulder, they had gun laws. you weren't allowed to bring your gun into town. you had to check it because they knew that a combination of liquor, module tendencies, people who want to prove how tough they are, if you have guns that things are going to happen. said hewi wouldn't allow the gu. the nra would not last an hour in old tombstone when virgil or was in charge. i think the nra does not mention

that in any other popular literature and yet it's a fact. these issues that were splitting america part in the 1880s, we've we still got there. and the reason well do is we dot look back at history, see where all this began, and that gives us threads to decide okay, we now have to stop and get some common sense gun laws, laws regarding immigration, and we have to have some national assessment, some agreement how much government is necessary in our lives. we really don't have these debates. we have people lashing out and screaming at each other. some 100 yearsmi from now our grandchildren may very well be say, can you believe and grandpas time in the 2020s they were talking about the same things we are now, immigration, gun laws come government

intervention? if you're going to stop we have to go back to genesis and say okay, this is what we have to do or else we're going to repeat this again trend within your next book "manson" what was your goal with that book so much has been written about him and this didn't come out until 2013? >> guest: charlie manson in his lifetime was always the wrong man in the right place at the right time. ifth he had committed the crimes he was rigidly jailed for i think he was a most incompetent parent in history of american prostitution. he was a small town veteran smalltime car theater if charlie had been jailed in nebraska, let's say, and he suddenly had reappeared in downtown omaha claiming to be a prophet and handingbe out drugs to kids were looking for somebody to tell them what to do, locals would've stuck would have stuck him on a pitchfork

and put them out in the field al a scarecrow. but just in the time in american life where california was where anybody young in america was looking for inspiration. i was in college in austin, texas, and all i could think of, why can't i be in san francisco or los angeles where the culture is great, the music is wonderful, the philosophy is there? manson gets out t of prison. and ends up in berkeley, california, hotbed of protests, and vinegars across the bay to san francisco. these are places where young kids flocked. they were looking for gurus like the beatles had. and i found people who knew manson at this time, and they would describe how manson would go to golden gate park where every day they would be dozens of self-appointed goobers who would preach to the kids gathered around them. all the kids hoping they were going to hear some great wisdom.

charlie would call two or three things that seem to t be very effective, i think he would go to the free clinic in haight-ashbury where sick kids were just jammed in the lobby and he would preach to them very giving their patter down at that he would go back to golden gate and he would proclaim himself as a prophet. it worked enough with some ragtag kids that they decided charlie was some great profit, maybe even some religious figure. he made sure they had all the drugs divided, and he pursued history of musical superstardom. happen.dn't have you ever heard any manson tapes that he made at the time? i had this on to thea musician and at 12 he and some other sixth-graders formed a garage band before our neighbors asked us to close it down or move. that was charlie mansons level

of music sophistication. it was never going to happen. but only in that place and at that time could he have gained the followers he did, and been able to talk them into committing a couple horrific crimes that just at that moment caught the attention of the country. there's a newspaper war in l.a. and the papers were vying who could have the most lurid story about the tate lobby altimeters today. that rings in the national media. hence, the charlie manson mythology springs up this evil little hippie man with great powers. it was agrees astronomy little fog. but would remember them differently and we remember them differently because the times hw lived in it that's why i wrote the book. >> host: there's an image stuck in my head from 1969 aiken 1970 charlie manson with susan

atkins, leslie quinn michael, patricia van helton, three women who were part of his day, and it's stuck there in time. >> guest o course the desperate it's very dramatic. i spent a lot of time with leslie van helton and patricia quinn michael winkle ree book fair in corona california women's prison, for life they will never get out because no california governor wants to be the one to let any of the manson family out on the world. but they remember the whole trial, vince is the prosecutor and he writes that type of his true crime book helter-skelter which has sold over 9 million copies in thes years since the four charlie it is what he dreamed of. he's a center of international attention and every day before the trial opened and immediately came in, charlie, his lawyers and the three women who are untried with him conne for

strategy sessions and charlie would say i'm going to do this outrageous thing today, and when they do i want you three women to jump up and say this. he orchestrated every step of it if you got into selling vacuum cleaners instead of crying, he might've been a multimillionaire. but he hadma image and he told them, he told these women he was going to play crazy charlie, then that case until it became so obvious that he was too crazy to be incarcerated for the crimes that let him out. but they didn't see the crazy charlie, they saw the calculating charlie addington to attest to that gives us this whole different insight. and again, why write books about history that don't bring

something new that gives us a greater understanding? i did know much about charlie mitchell before i started. when hens finished the book i se didn't like him or admire him that you had to shake your head at some of the talent this man had. he knew how to sell himself and he sold himself in blood. >> host: jeff guinn, what was it like sitting across the table from leslie van houten and patricia krenwinkel, knowing what they had done? >> guest: you are not allowed in that prison if you're visiting them to bring in a pad eand pen or a recording device. so i would spend the day interviewing one or the other. they are not friends at this point anymore, were not going to sit at the same table and talk to him at the same time trend when . >> host: at their old ladies basically. >> guest: that's one of theanan shots to remember them frozen in time and in the way they still are leslie van houten the

lar pretty girl in high school, you got remember she's 20 when all this happened and she still has a little girl gestures. when she's talking to you she plays with her hair. she giggles beer she reacho pat her hand just like the pretty flirtatious girl in high school would deal. but they would talk and i would have to race back to my hotel and get my laptop out and try to write it down. patricia krenwinkel at one point, an old woman now, who spends her days in prison training rescue dogs to be guide dogs for the blind, she will not remind you as you see if there is anybody dangerous. and she is telling me about stabbing abigail folger on the lot of house on the night of the first murders. and she's remembering how it does it hurt your hand when you stab, unless you hit bone and then your hand really hurts.

and i went back to the motel and i was trying to transcribe as best i could. it was about three in the morning when i finished i try to go to sleep and i couldn't. and for months afterwards my wife would wake me up in the middle of the night because i was screaming. i was having a nightmare about women with knives coming toward me. it's not easy sometimes hearing what people say, but you have to listen to what they are saying here if they are honest enough to really come out and tell you these things, then you better not go oh, i don't want to hear it there you have to hear it and you have to write it in such a way that the reader is sitting right there with you, hearing something tell you this thinker you want the reader emotionally invested because that's when history counts. that's when it matters when it's

not a high school textbook. >> host: what was a process like of getting into that prison and convincing these two women to speak with you? >> guest: it was difficult. in some form they will occasionally talk to outsiders because they think if they talk about what they did admit they were guilty this will have weight with the parole board. and it took a little while. i think i went back five different weekends and spent the weekend there doing the interviews. but once people feel like they're having a conversation that somebody is listening, then they tell their stories a little differently. the trick is not to say to someone tell meme about this god-awful time you committed. i mean, does he keep you awake nights? people don't want confrontational questions, but if you can say, can you help me understand how this happened? what brought you to this point? everyone wants to explain, and

there again is the challenges of the history. make people comfortable enough to trybl to help you understand their viewpoint or that doesn't mean readers. read the manson book and oh, my god, patricia krenwinkel and lenses that help, i hope they are paroled and are my neighbors that doesn't forgive horrific need we need to lod what happened, why and how. that's when the story really matters. >> host: was your next book in jonestown a natural follower to the manson bo? >> guest: i have nevereally been categored as a writer of a certain type of history, and i never wanted to be known as a cold writer because i don't think there's a generic type of cult and for manson in the

manson family two people's table to david karesh and the branch davidians, there are some similarities and great differences. but haven't written about the late 1960s, i wanted to learn more because againi i'm 1819 -- 18, 19, 20, going up now. how do we segue from the chaos of the late '60s into let's go with ronnie reagan and conservatism sweeping the country in the '70s. what has to happen rex so if i split right about the '70s i figured there were only two real themes that would resonate with readers. one was watergate, ada felt there's nothing new i can bring to watergate. whatever the really is about that is a therapeutic but the other was people's temple and what happened in jonestown in supposedly the prime example in our history of winsome charge

and gets a bunch of sheepish followers to do his bidding up to and including themselves, and don't drink the kool-aid, is part of our lexicon. i thought, well, good to be something in that? i started poking around. i learned two things the first of all it wasn't kool-aid. it was a cheap knockoff called flavor aid, it is many as the third of the people who died in jonestown didn't voluntarily drink it. they were forcibly injected so it was mass murder. and the second thing was jim jones had been hit by a car and killed in the late '50s, early '60s he would be considered one of the leaders of the early civil rights movement in america. i felt people sit and i wouldn't beeo alive without jim jones and people's temple. how could he change into what he became? how could hee have attracted suh attention at this timent in

america? and why would he driven overseas by bad press decide on this final fatal and historic way of demonstrating his disdain? so i didn't think of myself as writing my follow-up cult book i was writing a follow-up book about someone who unexpectedly achieved great infamy but unlike manson had actually accomplished a great deal of good. how does thatll fit together? >> host: jeff guinn, the survivors of the people who left people's temple do they still hold an informal reunion in november? >> guest: the surviving members of the peoples temple are in a way kind of like your extended family. they have squabbles up until a few years ago every year they would all come together around labor day, not just to comfort

each other, but to know that there with other people who would understand. they were treated with such great disdain when they survive jonestown. oh, you are the kool-aid idiots what's the matter comfort you thirsty that they? what kind of fool are you that you could follow someoneyo like jim jones? the people who joint and followed jimne jones didn't materially benefit from anything. he was usi his church, and when i say church, i use quotation marks, because it was a little little bit as an institution to bring about social change, racial inequality, economic equality, gender inequality. they came to give rather than get in bit by bit they got sd into something far worse. they don't think people understand what happened. i will say this.

i've written 25 books now. when they did the road to jonestown, when i was done i had about a dozen new lifelong friend who i see to this day, former members of peoples temple who were some of the most intelligent, culturally concerned people you could meet anywhere. theyre are wonderful. and getting to write about them and the things that happened was a great privilegehi for me did i learn so much writing the book. >> host: good afternoon and welcome to booktv's monthly in-depth program. this month we are at that tucson festival of books in arizona and our desk is historian and investigative reporter jeff guinn for we talked about several of his books people go through a couple more in just a minute but we want to make sure that you have a chance to get involved in this program as well.

will be take yourr phone calls this afternoon along with your text messages and any social media, it that you would like to make. 202-748-8200 for those in east and central time zones. 202-748-8201 in the pacific and mountain time zone pair if you want to send a text message center to this number, 202-748-8903. at booktv as i have the jeff guinn, will get, we will get to a couple of the other books by want to go from jonestown your most recent book "waco." february 1993, what happened? >> guest: david karesh, formally vernon wayne howell, at the branch davidians live in a

largeia sprawling house that thy call s mount carmel on a hill outside of waco, texas. they pretty much keep to themselves. they literally believe in every word in the bible and they believe that david karesh is the lamb in the book of revelations and he and his followers are about to bring about the end of times from the book of revelation by battling the forces of babylon. they had come to the attention of atf, alcohol tobacco firearms, for being an unlawful possession of semiautomatic weapons that had been converted to automatic weapons. there's nothing illegal about doing thatll in 1993 if you register each weapon and you pay a tax for doing so. the branch davidians had not donean that. disgruntled former branch davidians had made claims to atf

that those that were left following david kareshd were quite likely to take some with automatic weapons, the ones that didn't sell at gun shows, and descent into waco or some other place and slaughter innocent people, as a means of bringing in the government, bringing about the end times of the bible. so atf thought it was not only acting to confiscate the legal automatic weapons but, in fact, public safety was involved. they thought it was going to be easiest operation possible. these obviously were dumb people if they believed this kind of garbage from somebody whohi clearly to them as a fraud. pay plan, did atf come e this a bloodless, hugely successful raid. their budget hearings were coming up in march and wanted to

fill the whole thing and proved to senators and congressmen they were not bloodthirsty people try to wipe out innocent gunowners. the branch davidians learned they were coming. they were waiting. that was w a horrible three hour firefight. sixda at the branch davidians died, four agentss died, 16 more polluted almost a third of the agents making the raid. a long siege ensued with the fbi surrounding mount caramel. negotiators thought they were making progress in getting karesh to agree to come out. the fbi lost patience. on april 19 they decided they would insert teargas supposedly gradually to smoke the branch davidians out over a couple of days. instead,e they filled the corns withme mount caramel with gray clouds of gas and a fire broke out that all the branch

ansn their died horribly except for n who escaped, all adults that became genesis and all the controversies afterwards that clearly have led to a number of violent instances ever since. so there's notof just the mount caramel story to tell but the consequences. >> host: the branch davidians, is it fair to say that they started out as a pretty legitimate offshoot of the seven-day adventists? >> guest: the branch davidians first called the shepherd's rod out in los angeles were started in the 1920s by an adventist named victor who believed that as all adventists did, that you are to live by the rules of the bible, and that at some time in the reasonably near future the end of days would come when christ will judge everyone. and the only people who would

survive that judgment and allow allowed to live in the new great kingdom of god would be the one who had strictly adhered to the scriptures. he believed the seven-day adventists had gotten into worldly. when windsor leadership didne he and his followers split off and they moved to waco, texas, because land was cheap there and they in the water group for all the souls that were going to be saved on the last days to be able to gather together. they kept to themselves when they tried to recruit new members that was mostly from seventh-day adventist churches but may they believed all te of godod through the church, tht faith them would ever be able to qualify if they straightened up. a couple different profits followed victor after his death one was a middle-aged woman named lois. she took as her disciple a young

stammering bumbling young guy from houston named vernon wayne howell under her tutelage. he revealed himself as being informed by heaven. he wasme king cyrus of the old testament. he had to takeest the name koreh because siegrist is pronounced koresh in hebrew. he was thes lamp of the book of revelation. he was going to lead his followers into the final epic fight with babylon. the end of days is not only coming soon, it's coming now and with wants to do. they were biblical literalists and whatever else we talked about today, this is what we must remember. they firmly believed, and the survivors today still believe this, that the god they believed in had told them through his prophet, david koresh, what they must do, and so they would do

it, even if secular law said no. because gods law is the only true law whatever else we may think with all the things that happened, they sincerely devoutly believed they were doing the work of god. i really had to work to learn that and accept it before i could start writing about their perspective on things. and if youth read the book, give it doesn't mean you're going to say all, they did what was right, but at least you will know why they did things and how come the really critical elements of history. >> host: charles manson, jim jones, vernon wayne howell a.k.a. david koresh. not very good childhoods. >> guest: no, but it is also true that children with much worse childhoods don't go out to

proclaim themselves prophets and lead people to their death. manson didn't want my book to come out when he found out i traced his history to us because that would be able to write about his somewhat pampered childhood. jim jones had an odd childhood that he was always loved vernon wayne howell was born to a 14-year-old girl and was raised with a lot of uncles and stepdad, but he never wanted for food or attention. we can understand when people have problems how it might affect them. that doesn't mean we have too also believe that it was inevitable that became what they became. >> how many children of david koresh survived, and why so many? >> guest: sodavid koresh

children, most of them, died in the final fire. that was deliberate on his part. all told, he fathered 23 children by just about a dozen women. he said that the bible quoted that the lamb shall spread his seed, so the lamb of revelation can't be jesus because he didn't have children, so vernon the lamb had to have children. obviously he could have those with just one wife. and that these children of israel really old souls being born again and when the end times came they would be the magistrate of the book of revelation, would help rule over the new kingdom of god. three of his children were out of mount carmel by the time the atf operation took place. their 2-twomac mothers had

become disenchanted with koresh and left taking the children with them. during the season itself he sent out other children from mount carmel but never his children. he set out the children of followers, but he fully expected his followers, expected, they will have to die here the fbi, atf previously are doing what the bible predicted. so their children, the little children of the followers can be sent out two or three at a time because they don't have any vital role coming but koresh children haveom to stay and his children burned to death on april 19, 1993. at this by99 the way points t one of the big mistakes the fbi made. they never bothered to learn what the branch davidians and koresh really believed.

they called it bible babble, a delusion, and it wouldn't even talk to them about it because they said we are just buying into the delusion if we do that. they did not know though that child welfare workers in waco try to tell them that koresh isn't sending his own children without. the fbis taking this as a wonderful son picked he'sid letting the kids out there he will send more, he will send more. he's not sending his children out there that means he's got some plan for a grand finale. but the fbi didn't listen to her they just said kids are coming out maybe it's working. think of how horrible that is. you are followers of koresh that you were in that there surrounded by tanks, forar god's sake. you expectre any minute you are going to be blown to smithereens. and you are pleased.

this means david's offices were correct we are going to be translated up to heaven and come back in the army of jesus. if the fbi knew that, do you think maybe they wouldn't have finally decided after seven weeks okay, we're just going to go in there and knock them down, there will not be able to stop us? everybody misunderstood everybody else chaos inevitably follows. >> host: jeff guinn, did you have good results talking to survivors, talking to dissidents of branch davidians? >> guest: there aren'ts? many left. a lot w of them were younger ony nine adults escaped conflagration. i talked to five and had a phone conversation with another one who is living in england now who so hated the questions i was asking him he decided i was sent by the devil. these people, the survivors, to

this day believe that david koresh really was the lamb, that everything he said was true, that the things that happened to waco really are the beginning of the end times that will happen any minute, that david is going to return just like you promised. they dono not regret what they did. they believe strongly that god approves of what they did there they were living for god they are still living for god. i talked to them. theyke were very open, very helpful. i feel like we have pretty good relationships. then the book came out. in it i prep what they say but it also printed the fact that vernon wayne howell, david karesh stole all his prophecies come plagiarized from an earlier koresh in florida almost 100 years ago almost word for word. of and these are people who fo0

years has sustained themselves by hanging on to this belief. that's what they built their lives around, here comes this outsider who said look, i respect you but you follow someone who wasn't what he said he was. now, it's that likely they're going to say make you. they haven't. i've got all the facts in the book and i invited them please come check , check for yourself, don't take my word for it. they are not doing that. they don't feel they have to because they know the truth and the truth is what david said, no matter what i may think of uncovered. >> host: we are talking with historian and investigative reporter jeff guinn on booktv, and that which occurred but we want to hear your voices as well. will put the phone numbers up and we will hear from glenn who was calling from friedland michigan. glenn, good afternoon to you. >> caller: thanks everyone. my question is about manson and

the idea narrative with a capital in like, for example, that jesse smiled at hate crime hoax which was quite obvious and ridiculous, yet lots of people immediately accepted and promoted it, including the current president and vice president of the united states, that was because it served a bigger narrative about racism and homophobia and blah, blah, blah in the case of manson and his supposedly abusive child, until you came along, jeff, pretty muchme entire world excet to destroy that he was a victim of his family and society at large and all that. even john lennon of the beatles bought into it. why do you think that was?

do you think what, if any, larger narrative do you think was being served by disorder blind faith in this fictionalized narrative of mansion besides , i think we've got it that we'd appreciate it. we appreciate it. second goes back to where we started our conversation about the mythology of american events. >> guest: you've got to remember that in 1968, 1969 in america anything seemed possible that would've seemed impossible just a few years before. you had young people radically changing, previously in america the kids were going to go up to be like their parents and all of a sudden you were finding young people thinking it's that old all right to be disrespectful, it's necessary because we need to make things better. you've got music becoming the cultural touchstone instead of books, instead of tv. for the first time you've got

national news that the broadcast pretty much on a 24/7 basis, but the evenings you can always listen to walter cronkite a man walks on the moon. the new york mets when the pan it. richard nixon comes back from obscurity to become president of the united states partners riotf in the streets. civiler rights just tell everything going crazy here and people want something that they can glom onto nancy and it what they want to see. charlie mansion provided that he was a very protean sort of figure. nixon got into hot water because he said in a news conference that it's obvious that man is guilty, and why is the news

media glorifying him? five course good mansion metric manson to say the president said the spirit he didn't get that. student rebels all thought that manson was great. bernadette dorn and some of those, they had their gesture like this. and the labianca murders, a fork was jabbed into leo labianca abdomen. so this was the tines of the fork but if you want to believe manson was like che guevara, you can believe that if you want to believe he was proof that all this hippie sky was not only disgusting but dangerous come he could be that if you wanted a great grizzly to crime mystery with sex and drugs rock 'n' roll entertainment, you could have that so manson fit so well into that time when every headline

anyway was sensationalistic in some way. that he served the nations need for something to believe in and all different categories of belief could see in them what they wanted. that's the fascination of the 1960s and charlie manson, that we were at a time and place where someone like him could mean so many things to so many different people. >> host: cornelius in alexandria louisiana iran with author jeff guinn. >> caller: hello, jeff and peter. god bless both of y'all. now jeff, i want to bring up having an african-american and you know the story of -- i try to i'm sorry, you broke up. >> host: cornelius, can you keep your mouth close to your phone? >> guest: can you hear me know? >> host: please go ahead.

>> caller: okay. do you know the story of the lone ranger? >> guest: yes, i do. >> caller: look, there is a guide made bass reads and he was an african-american marshal in the oklahoma territory and stuff, and that's what the real lone ranger was based upon their si smithsonian museum show about that and they had clayton moore's granddaughter or daughter other talking about that heat had an engine companin and he worked with a hanging judge and the ultimate territory. but he was an escaped slave and everything after the civil war and stuff and he had hundred headed towards oklahoma and they say he wase greater than bat masterson and stuff. i would love -- traveled let's

get a comment from jeff guinn. thanks, cornelius tragic cornelius makes an excellent point and that's another reason why studying history, researching it, writing about it is important. and particularly minority americanss have been so misrepresented throughout history there is a feeling right now that if you are white historian you can't properly understand and write about minority figures in history i hope that changes just as it will have more minority writers writing about white subjects will all understand each other better. bass reeves is an american -- amazing character i'd like to sit everybody out there who is e interest in wild west history, look thiss man up here you will be fascinated by his life and times. >> host: and there is a connection to the lone ranger. >> guest: very much so. >> host: let's move on to carl in chicago. carl please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: yes i have a

comment and a question. i accidentally met that jonestown boys sometime after the incident because they were flying from new york city to dayton where i lived within, to return home, i think the indiana. my question is, why does, why do humans have such a fascinating with cults? >> guest: that's a fair question i think the best way to answer it is at the word cult is misused. weekend now, we're in the habit, it really started with manson through jim jones w for the brah davidians anytime there's a group that is sort of separates themselves they may have some religious belief that is not mainstream, it's easy to say oh, there are colts.

you're probably not very bright and their following some fraud. that's not the case at all but because the mythology is so strong, a lot of the media picks up on it and puts it out there and that just intensifies the feeling. that manson family had nothing in common with people stable, have nothing, with the branch davidians. cults is just widely misused, and i think that's the reason people make assumptions about what a cult must be. >> host: jim jones son survived today, correct? >> guest: a couple of them, yes. >> host: did it talk to you? >> guest: jim jones junior am proud to say is one of my best friends in this world. he calls himself the first black child adopted by a white family in indiana. his wife wanted to develop a rainbow family, that

is, they are preaching the quality of the races come let's adopt children of different that we can sure everyone can live together in harmony. and jim and stephen, who was the only s blood child of jim and marshall and jones, still are unlike i've met both of them. i am much closer to jimmy and stephen who is very reluctant to speak to outsiders. we are talking about good, intelligent people who have become the kind of american citizens we all aspire to be, involved in their communities, have loving families. they managed, they have rough times. they got through it. again, with cults we always think anybody who is involved, what must they be quick they must be more on spirit absolutely not the case in any of these groups usually have highly intelligent people who have been looking for like-minded others that they can

feel comfortable with. and jimmy and stephen have very well adapted now to the world as it is, but they were there when the father was faking miracle healing curator they saw him during his drug usage. they understood what a flawed person he was. but it also saw that the peoples temple itself,le the causes, wee very just they were working towards. they say, and it's true, as jim jones deteriorated into drug addiction and paranoia, people stayed in people stable not because he thought he was a god or a great man, but because they of the templeals were what counted we will do this in spite of him, instead of under his leadership. i would say to anybody who met with them, you would like them, you would learn a lot from them i've learned a great deal from

cult members and grow because of it. >> host: jeff guinn, is it a fluke that both jim junior and steve are alive today? >> guest: yes. jim and stephen were part of the jonestown basketball team that had been allowed to leave jonestown which by the way is buried in the middle of the impenetrable jungle, to get in there to take a look at it i had to charter a plane, landed in the middle of the jungle, little by the landing strip and use machetes to cut a couple miles into the jungle to find where this had happened. the guyanese government tolerated jonestown, but were not necessarily enthralled with jim jones himself. the idea that jonestown would have a basketball team that could go into georgetown come by guyanese capital, employ exhibition games against the

guyaneseti national team, maybe that will help. so jimmy and steven and some of the other young man from jonestown werest in georgetown when the big moment came. a couplesman at members of the news media were killed. jim jones gathered everyone together to die as a political gesture. and he called the office they had in georgetown, and jimmy took the call. his father use code words, killed yourself. and jimmy and stephen no, we are not doing that. do it. and there were some followers who were there in the building they really still believe in jim jones pick one woman took a knife and killed herself and her children.. jimmy and stephen, thinking,

well maybe before has everybody died in jonestown he will do what it is four our sermons complete racing to the american embassy to see, can we get a helicopter? can we get a small plane? if we can get there we can stop this you know, we will go stand right next to him and say no, you can't do this to the embassy was closed for the night. would talk to them because they thought peoples temple were a work much t americans were doing questionable things. the next morning the surviving basketball team members in georgetown were arrested by the guyanese police and were held on suspicion of murder here it took a long timee to get out of ther. but it was by sheer luck that the jones boys lived through that. other think it was great good fortune. there great contributing citizens. >> host: government response to both jonestown and to waco.

did not save lives. .. not, -- it did not, though there are different circumstances in both cases. jim jones had gone to diana -- guyana after his reputation in america had been destroyed by some investigative reporting that indicated negative ministry people hadn't knownth before. he was still considered by the government to be legitimate. there is going to be investigation because relatives complained there family members were being held against their will. whether they work or not is questionable but when that pressure came and congressman chose to show up and say coming

in, i'm going to inspect, maybe two dozen of the people wanted to leave. he said fine, so over 900 people and he was a drug addict paranoid. soon, everybody is that's why she decided, killed the congressman and we are going to die here and to remind everybody congresswoman jackie retired the assistant she was down there in 1970. one thing i have to remind people of is there three groups

the ended horribly and didn't have to end the way it did. best result would have been t clean operation, nobody dies d we come out looking great. only the gender required people to die and that's a fact. we shouldn't forget it. >> mike, detroit. go ahead with your question or comment. >> it's great to hear. i lived in arizona and one thing that struck me about tombstone, the civil war brought west, the

union soldiers and texans and even the father was an abolitionist so it seems the war never ended, border states to 20 years later until that generation died out. >> that's a great observation and it's critical. thank you for raising that. up until the civil war, most pioneers out west are coming from the northeast because there's so little available land, they want to become landowners and farms and ranches. after the civil war, the majority of the people coming west to make their fortune are former citizens of the confederacy getting away from the union so now suddenly the southwest in arizona you cut

people moving in trying to a get away from government control. the government shouldn't tell us what to do, we came here to avoid that.t. then you get those who identified the union as law and order saying got to have cattle herds and for you can get your cattle and carry guns and taxes were a big issue. if i'm a former confederate soldier in a come to arizona to tombstone to make a new life, i want some yankee fighting on the other side to be the sheriff and telling me cattle looks was suspicious and might be wrestled and i'm going to take your heard to make sure so this exacerbated it and brought the conflict into

a different area of america where tension will rise so sectional rivalry is important, i'm glad you raised that subject. >> what is your favorite tv adaptation of this holiday story? >> i know i should say something deep and thoughtful but the thing i loved most is in tombstone, i think there quite a few tv shows that have been great entertainment and made a sacrifice and i'm still hoping somebody will say the movie but make it realistic. may the force be with you for asking the m question.

>> next call from ames iowa this is nancy. go ahead with your question or comment. >> or comment on history touching our lives despite absolute chance lbj ranch lady bird johnson in the center, we were doing a story and quietly during that lunch, i was sitting next to her and told her it is this memory in my mind get, thank you very much and she on her obligation of what we had but i could see in her face and body language her distress.

another thing, this happens to be me, marge anniversary history can touch one's life. my husband and i were married in washington d.c. the most wonderful man but those are my comments and i am enjoying this wonderful historian who we need to love and charge them and promote them in any way we can. >> you've dropped a couple of names, can you tell us about yourself? >> i can, i was a magazine editor, i found a magazine in 1987 my background before the in american history, i have been an observer, and under american

heritage for a short period of time and probably of the wonderful jason mccauley. we work together. >> are you associated with the state university? >> my husband is tired, however he is associated with the university because he's been involved with the foundation that maintains -- he has a 30 year career and we are both retired. >> any comment? >> it's wonderful we have people who not only care about history but an active part of it. good for her and thank you for sharing the story about lady bird johnson. lady bird had been in charge, who would never have had the

tragedy, would have been more thoughtful going to take time. >> the lbj library in austin ahead of time, he told a fascinating story others might like to hear. >> people always ask, when did you get interested in history? one of the important moments as a sophomore at the university of texas in austin, they began building the library on campus and lyndon johnson retired from campus by helicopter with his assistant and family or friends, he would take them on tours. this would allow college students maybe three or four at a time to join his group and a dozen times i was able to follow lyndon johnson talking about

this event or a that event liste said martin luther king at this moment and called george wallace his presidency and said and the testicles are like this but i got more involved. hearing these stories and seeing some great historic figure whose real made me want to know more and essentially dedicated my career to so thank you very much lyndon johnson and every time i see a bowlingth ball, i always think. >> i hope that story goes viral. jeff, i am a sucker for horses. i like westerns.

i'm puzzled by the fact that none of your books which i read contain footnotes, sources, bibliographies or documentation. can you help me understand that? >> if you're saying that, you haven't read my chapter notes. i'm careful to list everything, i urge you to go back and look again, thank you. >> next call from rick in kentucky, go ahead. >> thank you for taking my call. my question is about waco at the end of the operation on the assault have been collected attorney general and president clinton to sign off on that or was that made from the local level?t >> thank you for asking that, an

interesting story. janett reno sworn into office by the senate in the middle of the standoff the fbi had taken over, the fbi brought to her a written plan to end the siege, their idea was this teargas gradually over two days and everyone would finally get set up and come out. no approved this plan only after he was a short it would not be dangerous particularly to the children inside the compound. she finally said yes i think this is what you can do. what is a fact is that would

take place gradually over two days. except in great quantities. around 6:00 a.m. immediately fired all of its case supposed to last two days but last three to four hours. the fbi had cut off electricity, and rainy spring to warrant lanterns lithe fuel oil. re bound to explode if themount flamee was initiated.

the question of the, fbi that fire when the lantern got knocked over and today commit suicide. the fbi should not have done what it. in the media chief was lied to. the fact remains that it was done so we can say they approved the plan and they did but not plan so, it is sort of gray area. how much was true that thomas edison, henry ford and person all went camping together but.

>> this is one of my favorite books ever written because it was so much fun. for the camping trip started, they would take their cars and processional trucks hauling food, they would simply come out on the roads of america for trips. when the fir model introduced to the country all of a sudden your family can afford a car, people's transportation to and from work from afford the nation to understand that part was really no reason to go out on a family car trip in a 12 year. because the most famous men in america and media covered everyday of the trips, we

switched the horse and buggy or railroad culture to our culture when they started their trip is a hundred thousand voters in america. by the time they finished, there's millions of colors and well over half the model t the edison and ford love going out together, their idea of roughing it meant nice meal and they could have fresh closing the next day. if any of you get a chance to go to the ford museum in michigan, please do so. it is a full story shows a man changing but there's no blood or got involved and i enjoyed writing about tragedy. it's a wonderful story and hope more to learn about it.

can't the entourage might have eight or nine cars in the entourage remember no highways in america. this is the time in american history, west virginia, that there w twisting her tongue and you run to the roadside and that is henry ford, thomas edison. this brought important people out there.

everybody would say isn't it wonderful we are seeing someone special just for pennies. in writing the book, it's the only book i've ever written on trying to relax and look through to the number trips. >> he followed up were on the border and hunt. how much of that is. >> the greatest myth is a political campaign and an americani and candidate in the run up to the 2016 election and

am doing well on the border and mexico is going to pay for it and it's going to be i wonderfu. i thought to myself will well, don't you think somebody might have thought of it before? babyby research history and wrie a book about it. lo and behold there are plans to build a wall across the border between the united states and mexico, 1904, 1908, 1912, thinking 14, 1917 -- every time they were building the wall and there is no you couldn't maintain and people were determined to climb over or under a breakthrough, it never worked in the past. how can a candidate say that?

i guess he never studied the history. it might be helpful. you should learn about the pursuit, read into america, i never heard about in the of this stuff cannot fly i love researching history it will surprise you. some in the border history the understood 1916 time and money building the wonderful threat that took the u.s. army begun to

texas. >> americans have always believed the matter what else happened on our borders are here. they wanted to incite movement across the border into mexico. basically the billing about the only thing he could do people size of. to their territory. by attacking and killing americans they will have to aftere and they are trying to

take more of our country so first he killed american engineers in mexico, a lot of mexican territory in northern states is owned by americans and when the government came and decided you need to go to show americans they can do in the country so crossing to a little town for killed people, government had to do something in his mission. connected world war one stop that mission? [laughter] >> world war i stopped the mission but because of what happened, america was prepared for entry and that is part of the story. that's what's wonderful history, who chases mexico and there strengthsnt whatever you do, the

presence of trapped by the mexican army northeast mexico and the can't move in any election, a brilliant soldier and realizes the american army is prepared to go into battle. it is time to bring troops to drill them and they have never had this so america enters world war two months later andwa is te commander over the but if his troops he brought to mexico for the only battle troops they had to without punitive exposition, america had to hold out for

months and who knows how that would be changed. >> as we continued thepe conversation with jeff quinn, 748-8201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific. don't want to make a comment, social media and text a question or comment (202)748-8903. those are text messages only. include your first name and city if you would. let's hear from gary in sioux falls, dakota. hi, gary. >> thankou you for having historical facts. i am a history major and better. i'm curious, you are talking about turmoil kennedy and martin

luther kingg jr. were killed. were you doing about that time? >> i'm about to turn 72, i was in college. 1968 presidential campaign itself to the increase in paranoia and anguish inn americ. i was aa student in texas following around the library and felt guilty because i developed an admiration wouldn't be allowed to follow along these two wordsul but i was intereste, you need to share in your time into think a lot of us did that. people knew the people i write

my books forr and thank you for being interested. >> perry, st. louis, good afternoon. >> are you still there? >> we are listening, go ahead. >> are you still there? >> we will come back in a second look at some straightened out. we will come back in a second. one thing we always do here and it is only a reason to trilogy on the day of battle.

why have you picked this up? return late, i spent maybe three years feeling scared there are so many moving parts, so many people to include in theso story and i'm always afraid when i start writing the book, i think i'll never be able to do it then i realized there are great historiansea will and i like to look at their work and be comforted by the fact that it can be done. atkions one of the truly major hans of our time and i don't flatter myself but when i finished, i want to they could write about complex issues and

moving parts and not only make it as shady turning the page and it's such wonderful writing so just to feel good about the possibilitiesju and history. >> the 30 anniversary of the incident in april 1993 your book just came out. this is the most contemporary history ever written. >> why did you choose to write about this? >> there were supreme court decisions, five to four votes during thehe pandemic to mega- churches, one in los angeles in one who put a limit of 75 people because of the pandemic but it wouldn't be safe.

they violated their freedom of religion want to get in the same room and the supreme court found that before and the. reaction was to throw up their aunts and say oh no. any religious group that wants to say this is what, there is legal precedents. like to know more about this. where in american history have we have conflict between people believes that religious beliefs in the long it seems like a possibility. i read the different books office and there were some that were quite good but i also felt

there were things no mention of the you would be involved. gewill click sprouted full-grow, where did they come from? how and whyro did they get ther? about it's a story worth earning and telling you have to believe that if you screwed two or three years of your life lookingwo congress 247 researching and writing a book, not me. one child religious belief was attacked.

saying religious freedom outweighed this and something to think about. books in the last in america change all the way to present the the of us is melissa to the school for the actions they took.

and it has made quite the career of this and maybe these folks close look at m the we'll have o see. go ahead with your question or comment. the first here in florida and a lot of what you're talking about individual readers, if you want to get vaccination, he simply fun. it really goes. people are not aware and gets into issues of how guilty is

large versus the person the community was outraged not put to death because of his childhood. and what happens in our childhoodd continues to change it.he it's almost identical in ways that we are familiar with ptsd. >> a lot there, we are going to stop. >> big frustration is not going to live long enough to write the books i want to write and i

encourage people if you love history, if you're interested in it, is no trick trying to write books, you just have to tell a story that will interest people. maybe i'll get into florida, i don't know that i will, i hope some of the. >> is a fascinating discussion did either of the two women you spoke with display any acknowledgment or? to be interesting and they both

say they take believes mass murderers are more things you never know anybody like green shee agreed. i think she is think she sees herself as a. victim and just placed under. patricia told me and here's she did things and uses that was

scared she knew she was capable of doing terrible things that she had i know it is no excuse and i believe she is not see herself as a victim but somebody punished deservedly for something. i hope that helps answer your questions and i apologize for a the fascination of the was the first letter you wrote to the did they allow personally? >> an advantage of having written all books someone and saying i'm interested in fact in whatever you tell me is what i'm going to write the book. your perspective will get

previous books so they can see the kind of writer i am and i can make a difference i tried to pretty good at tracking people. they have not wanted talk, they've spent their lives in the have to respect that. no legal obligation to talk in particular the younger women

have grandchildren who have no idea they were part of the manson family and trying to hide it. what am i going to do, growing up for them? no. >> they allowed in the prison? i believe the story has been finally told. my name is doctor mitchell in new jersey, thank you for your work. when and what compelled you to become historians?

>> i think i started down the path are 13 and read a book called travels with charlie in reading the book like okay, this guy i only know because they made me read the program, got in ethe car parked in wrote about t got paid for it and then library he told the story, i thought it was superior to the biographies written in the autobiography he had written. they were formal and i kept thinking there are better ways to tell all of this. i became a list and was an investigative journalist and learned how to dig and look for things got very lucky. i was one of the fortunate when

i wrote history that fascinated me. shout out to lyndon johnson and charlie the poodle, you are my inspiration. >> we ask authors to appear and what their favorite books are. travels with charlie by john is one of his favorite among catherine bowen, and the once and future king, speak to those books as well? >> the yankee and over, i did not want to read the book when i was in high school because it was boring but nice flight attendant was the high school in san antonio we all had to read the book and i was mesmerized.

it was in m that book that i realized writing history didn't have to be born. it just created context starting with the grandfather, a minister and everything he learned into his times in place and the decisions he rendered on the supreme court that changed america forever were just based on law but experience. if can write a book like that and not make it try thought it must be possible to write history that is actual and tells important stories people don't know but you can enjoy reading it and it inspiration. i go back to the book a lot when i'm writing.

i think anyone who has read this knows that the legend and he could take the story we know about the sorting the stone and he could make it apply. he wrote it during the break of world war ii and was a pacifist and wanted to write a book that made people think about certain philosophies. i loved the book for its storytelling and the way they could bring something we thought we already knew and those were the people who inspired me and still inspire me. i read the books and again and again and it's like i learned something new. >> fifteen minutes left, donald in huron, ohio. go ahead.

>> a nursing home called twilight, i spent an entire summer in an enclosure down there and i can't remember who was in charge, and elderly couple, went to high schools and colleges and we were going around the country studying so we went down to waco and spent the summer there disagreed with the number of things they did, passover and day of atonement and we would observe all of

those. the only thing that carried over into the new testament was keeping the seventh day sabbath which we try to do. we spent days and we saw corruption.r we had all kinds of stuff we didn't like so we got out that we were atol waco for three mons and it wasn't a place for us. my daughter had gone to an academy she knew who he was so we had all this background and new the history started reaching out with the people we with and since we were there.

>> thank you for sharing your story. he first believed he had been called and he said god's message was to follow jewish celebrations rather than christian families and that's why they celebrated passover.

they came to her and revealed the holy ghost was male and female. for that she had knowledge to leader and acquired that from an earlier one long before she still hears and he was doing it. >> they are somewhat interactive the town of waco. >> one legal wife rachel and to take the guitar and for some reason no record producer in

l.a. wanted to fire. when mediawh can figure 28, the atf operation, they wanted stories, the more the better and find people. have you seen them do disgusting things? they said range but they keep to themselves and they are okay. they couldn't find people to complain. many yearsvi later there were quite a few people who said i was there the whole time suspect that they were terrible but nobody said that at the time. ahead with your question or comment. >> have you ever thought about christian scientists and what

they have done? >> i have to say i've not thought about getting into that. maybe another writer. >> john, go ahead. we are listening. >> hello they've been saying for years and years and he's doing a life sentence. >> i don't feel the zodiac killer has the historic impact across our culture of objects mike, i don't think i'm going to do. >> last gunfight book is how it

changed american west, what do you mean when you say that? >> the event itself wasn't a gunfight, it was stopped to take a couple of weapons and never happened in the corral but a couple of losses not as catchy a title. in and of itself, it is negligible, mythology but in real history, this was the time laws were elastic and if you got a shoot out and killed somebody, you could easily say that he was going to shoot me like in first. thought was going to be

operating decisive factor. it wasn't going to be law the streets anymore and why we need to look at it and understand. other stuff is entertaining but also mythology. >> message, does when consider himself something of a myth buster? the d.c. amid developing today? >> an awfulje lot of belief in history is based more on convenience than actual fact finding. i want tose call myself a myth buster, somebody people take country from it. i like to think of myself as a factfinder. number two let you know where i

got information and make your own decision. >> stephen kansas, go ahead. we are listening. >> the 19th century and it ensure there are comments about it. for me it is true for a myth but it is very real nickelback to

these characters. look at the names, they are real. and it has graduated and it's about 16 years old and it is the summer it is the world of that time in quite a place in 1918 and 1916 and then and then --

>> started in tombstone and ended in france. >> is family has been part ofa history for so long it's wonderful he knows about that. makes it more fun to learn about how he's evolved from a to z to be but come from a colorful family and adventures. >> the texas cattle drive and the term texas ranger does not have the same connotation and it

doesn't mean they are everything we want to believe they are. it happensy that texas rangersf written about so far, their wrworst than what they are executing. i have respect of the organization but i have to tell the truth and the truth sometimes is uncomfortable and it bothers people. as far as cowboys are concerned in my part of the country original turn cowboy was meant to be an insult. if you call somebody a cowboy are saying is so disgusting, he's outside normal society.

look into where the term came in first place. >> weys have one minute left. go ahead. >> that's it. we couldn't hear from doug. talk about book festivals of the beginning, you were mentioning tucson, where we are now and the mississippi book festival held every august. >> when you do a lot of festivals, it is inevitable. i can't think of an author who loves being invited to the tucson festival. it is wonderful and friendly and the best organized festival. i could be here all weekend so

look forward to it everyday. mississippi book festival is an up and coming festival but shows every sign becoming one of the great. it's well organized and takes place in the state capital and grounds of the state capital and a beautiful setting to help everybody gets a chance to go directly have been talking with investigative reporter jeff quinn. here is his most recent book called waco, david, the legacy of rage. appreciate your time. >> thank you for the great questions, appreciate it. >> thank you audience as well. ♪♪ >> set up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen. to receive a schedule of upcoming programs, festivals and more, but tv every sunday on

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