inaugural address and a selection of his world war ii speeches. >> if you are enjoying american history tv sign-up for our newsletter using the qr code on our screen to receive the weekly schedule like lectures in history, the presidency and more sign-up for the american history newsletter today and be sure to watch american history tv every saturday or anytime online at c-span.org/history. >> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual fees. ery saturday american history tv documents america story. on sunday, bringing you the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more including fraud i broadband

♪♪ buckeye broadband along with these television companies support c-span2 as a public service. >> it is such a pleasure to introduce our extremely distinguished panel of the evening lincoln scholars to discuss lincoln's speeches and the american idea. seeing thech chancellor distinguished chair at the university of illinois springfield. the author of several books on lincoln including lincoln observed the inner world of lincoln and the two american abraham lincoln discussing tonight the black man's president abraham lincoln african-american and the pursuit

of racial equality. chair of the society of fellows andhe founding director for of e program on jewish and israeli law. the author of nine books including the three lives of james madison. and his latest book which he nwill be discussing tonight broken constitution lincoln slavery and the re- founding of america. professor of political science at the university and senior fellow at the institute. focusing on american political stuff and history. she is the author of several books including the space speech and song and the new book how lincoln moved the nation. welcome. let us begin with you.

tell our friends why you argue in the book that lincoln was the black man's president and you have several speeches including 1865 eulogy on lincoln. people have a better reason. what is the significance of that speech and why do you believe lincoln was a black man's president? >> thank you for inviting me. i feel little out of place. let's focus on lincoln speeches and writings and policies. the title of the book comes from a eulogy that was delivered on june 1, 1865. the premier site in the country. it was covered widely in the new york press.

it had been ignored on historians of douglas' speeches. in this remarkable speech he said abraham lincoln was predominantly the white man's president. rising among the country. by inviting c them to the white house to consult public affairs. by that gesture i am the president of the black people as well as though white. it is a striking contrast to the speeches a very wide known. that is the speech he gave 11 years later. at the dedication of the statue the emancipation memorial in washington. abraham lincoln was preeminently the white man's president. i remember when i first encountered the speech. i was astounded. i said surely i would have seen the speech in the five volume edition that was published or

the four volume study and then went back to the sources and those speeches were not, that speech was not included. .... .... and race in general. and then cape, missouri, very fine historian at northwestern university published an article recently on the white house receptions and black people's attendance people's attendance out white house receptions and they have a little bit to say about that but how much did i miss of the information? that led me deeper and deeper into speak will and in washington and lincoln's interaction described in his autobiography and detail but

little has been doneti about tht interaction with others so things to modern databases things to these databases so what i found lincoln interactive with all of whom commented on how kind and generous and it was gestures and actions based on appeals that indicates my way of thinking. >> thank you for calling our attention and it's transformed.

you argued powerfully in your book the original 1787 was broken in the new york times and violated core elements of the constitution and nearly all americansly in 1787 paving th way. tell us more about your thesis in the book. >> i came from the constitution itself and among those in 1787 the most part, there may be one or two exceptions and it was a compromise over slavery.

for these 20 years have this for states on their own r to acknowledge and recognize it the that is the setting for the way it functions from that time until the civil war. there were moments they compromised but congress managed to be inscribed and they supported that because we are mentioning this is written about extensively addressed to the youngy and was after the

constitution, we should be where of those and they are thinking of greatness willing to enslave freeman to enslave and pentax extraordinary and it would be wrongful because it was existed in illegally mandated in the states that chose to have slavery. once he becomes president, or have been in seven states and they decide what to do and that is the fundamental breaking of the constitution compounded by freeways. the first thing that surprising,

the decision to go unilaterally to return to the union not with these norms and the whole government. they are embracing the state of the union address and the authority to enforce it back into the union and the states have chosen no longer to give their consent to be governed and coerced himim back in. the secondnd which is the right for appearing in court is a reason on trial if you're not convicted, but you go early in

the war and even after the court via chief justice issued an opinion saying only congress has the authority and after the war repudiated the idea that martial law could be applied in 15 to 40000ot people over the course f the war without trial or opportunity to appear in court by a huge margin in the emancipation proclamation in

areas under confederate control. these are commitments to the idea slavery was protected so we'll talk about the second in the gettysburg address and that's what you see on either side and it's based on the temple and it opens with the constitutional power to change slavery protected by the constitution. overer o time it shifted and we spent a lot of detail time showing that came to believe it would break the guarantee of property right and it would have

said there would have to be returned slavery and the people who escaped would not be returned so that's a good breakup of the constitution. >> thank you so much for that summary of the book. i'm going to screen share unless anyone objects and it will inspiring and we can't force them in the rule of law and passion but theret are other

aspects so tell us.bo >> something about the overall pieces of the book so the book we should show them in a close reading of three lincoln speeches and the presidential address in the second inaugural and what i am struck by is how often lincoln anchored his speeches and significant dates. it begins with the constitution in 1787.

and that's with the bank gettysburg address did. the second inaugural is anchored in 1619. if you do the math, 2150 years of the slaves toil, it takes two to 1615 and rounding off so lincoln is aware of the origin date of slavery so i argue it tells the story of america and understands these significant dates, the relationship between those and slavery in the united states so the second inaugural deserves to be known as the original and better 1619 project

so the speech he gives to the young man, i think it's a remarkable address, the diagnosis of the dangers abroad at the time and a general diagnosis so this breakdown of law and order and is not talking about moving and writing, he's e'talking about vigilante justi, acts of vigilantism. driven by the passion for justice running the process so

there is this diagnosis and his solution is reference for the constitution and laws and is not simply law-abiding but attitude in which one obeys the law, attitude of reverence so the present danger of the second half of the beach and this is where the analysis is developed and goes back to a famous distinction and what happens if a person spells up after the

founding? what are they going to do for their ambition? to seizures and napoleon, the 41st or 42nd and the custodian of the founders and if there are good avenues to pursue that might be done if the evidence had already been tried, they will be sent forth enslaving three men. and that is the negative passion within nature, jealousy and hatred revenge and those

passions were harnessed. you could achieve liberty for yourself but in the future of those passions would be dangerous. it's very strong but conditional the more and the negative passion and you can look at the first inaugural and passion strained affection but we don't want it to separate us so the future danger is reason so this

is the book diagnosis and future danger and then a double solution, prostitution laws and solution to dangers ahead in ambition and runway passion. i tried to explain how these solutions could perhaps fit together. >> thank you so much for that. understand how it is because these are indeed on passion and

the ambition are native examples. it is the anniversary and wonderful toso hear, how does te gettysburg address, what you want to tell us about the gettysburg address? i think you are muted.

>> it striking gettysburg address appears but it does seem clear freedom we can reverse the gettysburg address and emancipation andma presumably first-class citizenship so even though the address doesn't have a great deal about race the implication does seem to herald not just complete emancipation expended not just the states but throughout the country but it happens 13 the moment but implication of the 14th a moment and 15th ah minute and

support for black voting rights articulated until his last public address which he didn't know would be his last public address and for the first time black voting rights among those who served in the armed forces and those who were intelligent by which we assumed he meant literate. he privately recommended that the governor ofis louisiana whih was the model for reconstruction and to rehabilitate itself after the war so in louisiana he worked hard to get something like voting rightsgh include working behind the scenes and

write a letter upon visited two black gentleman from new orleans then petition signed by men in new orleans and said we are literate, property owners, taxpayers and will go to folk and eligibility requirements for federal government and at this convention to do that so then he takes it further and writes a letter to the governor saying i suggest the constitution will include voting rights for the unionnt army and as part of this

freedom announces two days after it means he's shifting away from the moderate position to a much more radical position. that day in 1865 i was disappointed and spoke of the recommendation because iter waso limited but we should have recognized in the disappointed and recognize that was an extremely important speech because hesm statesmanship.

and that was john wilkes booth and that's the last speech that will give. >> thank you very much indeed for the period the gettysburg address w was a nonreligious tht he could describe in those

terms. tell us about the. and it is important help us understand. >> let me start by saying the classical greek overtones but it is the local language and the idea is the beginning and around thef conversation and it starts with the gettysburg address.

and it is difficult and almost all of them were protestant. that meant general morality and is believed morality was derivative and heavily protestant and read the bible and you would get access. lincoln could not interpret this in moral terms so long as the slavery in entrance in. he was committed to the constitution and full of law and it was a compromise and included compromise and that is what made it a contradictory. when they said result not only

this but he could not have said that about the constitution because it wasn't dedicated to the because of the train these. once it was an established fact by lincoln, he could. this is where the freedom part comes in and i talked about this, he's my audience, it's a resonant phrase of the 19th century protestant christian and they would recognize immediately the idea of new birth in christ. lincoln was making his conscious argument, he was drawing upon, threats to express a new idea and the old stuff was superseded by christian liberty so new birth of freedom was superseded

in slavery in the constitution so it be reborn as a moral country in fulfillment of the ideas p in the declaration of independence but not in the constitution. that i think is the explanation were able to use this language both in the gettysburg address and inaugural because he is freed up do so by emancipation which ended in moral authorities of the constitutional apparatus and the possibility of moral accounting and appropriate at a funeral and it was the deaths of the people at work.

>> and q for the period. >> i want to begin saying that i agree about the presence of the biblical language in the m gettysburg address and more so in the second inaugural but i don't think that's new. i think it's that way from the beginning" in the bible, gates of hell should not prevail draws a connection between the only greater institution, the church in the united states. and enslaved blacks it in the house divided each, the biblical

phrase and it's always been present in his rhetoric. a word about the relationship in the constitution and declaration, it is anchored in the constitution and a dedicated constitutionalist and i believe he renames a dedicated constitutionalist and nonetheless, it's true is the crisis over the house divided. lincoln's attention in the 50s shifts from the constitution to the declaration ofde independene and begins in 1852 with henry clay and begins that speech saying 1776 and every one of the

great speeches he delivers from the 50s, he recurs the declaration. i think the reason he has to do that, it shifts because americans in the 50s are beginning topu repudiate, they e doing this in an outright manner and they are grown in other ways and so i think is the principle of liberty for all lincoln has to demonstrate their error so throughout the 50s he appeals to the declaration in speech after speech, what properly

understood does so it's only the declaration the challenge by slavery and by extension can be met and i think his reflection on the declaration reaches its culmination in the gettysburgg address and that 30 word sentence when it begins the gettysburg address post gettysburg lincoln does not recur to the declaration. achieved form and that's the statement he wants all americans to memorize. one other point, i agree that it makes sense as a reference

emancipation steps that will follow emancipation but i also believe perhaps the freedom if the union is tory is then the heretical to discussion will be refuted and that reputation itself constitutes a new birth of freedom. that's what's necessary to returnrn to the original meaning of the founding partners. i don't know that that is the usual way but i think it fits with what lincoln says where the

work is so americans have the understanding between balance and bullet and there is no recourse back, a lesson in democratic theory. >> the second inaugural, i will give myself the pleasure of reading this which we do know so give us your thoughts on the speech. and it is a lasting peace the

donations. the final paragraph as one people know best, frederick douglass and that speech i mentioned, the markable paragraph is one that you can start off with jesus. the defenses, but by whom the offense comes? and it comes. passing through time to remove and goes north and south by whom the offense came so any

departure by those divine attributes always ascribed to him. we pray this gourmet speedily cost away but if god wills it continue until 250 years total to the paid going so it must be together and it is truly remarkable and reveals his commitment to racial equality and the address of the president something to the effect having

enslaved black people in the war has gone so long because he is heavily balanced, 250 years of colonel and income was generated by that equal to the wages to be displayed in the war was incredibly letting will and there were 150,000 is is seven and a half million men will was just thewa pope of the and it ws extraordinary for him later to say that it was profound.

it would not have sounded out of place for the minister to say this but for a president to say that is truly extraordinary and it was his understanding of that and how deep it was and how much it reflected his sense of justice and compassion for last, truly remarkable and that paragraph deserves to be more carefully scrutinized. >> the second inaugural. >> what we would call a liberal theology of the united states,

the use of religious ideas to explain a political event and give meaning. what we are doing is offering a version, political theology of the u.s. dependent on ideas about liberation so slavery is the original sin to describe what just original sin in theology and inevitable theology nevertheless evil.l. the only thing that can cleanse original sin is sacrifice of christ through blood and the blood is used by lincoln as a substitute for christ'sen blood,

it's christ suffering that is the original sin and that is what is going on, the blood of what was going on itself and is used to cleanse the united states of the original sin of slavery. this is a new world where it is possible for the entire picture as righteous in the eyes of god. there has been sin and the sin has been purged and because lincoln himself was assassinated, he came to function in a theology divided as a martyr of the process of emancipation of liberation and then because of the failure and imposition of segregation and

disenfranchisement of black w people, it's necessary for the civil rightsan movement to come and agree about further redemption of the guarantee ofee freedom and it was martin luther king jr. played that role and it's not an accident his most in the speech was ind the memorial and he, too was assassinated in a further order of this theology of the constitution in which a price is paid, blood and sacrifice paid in the sins of slavery and racism so that i think is still with us and made even more powerful and that's why we have martin luther king day official or unofficial american theology. i just want to add some might

feel troubled by the idea and we have this clause in the constitution and wee have to believe separation of church and state although not everybody agrees and it is a good way to formulate that. when it comes to the making by the people living in the country at the time and it was a christian country and very few muslims and overwhelming. now there is diversity and we have these ideas so much that we can't even realize christian origins of this or we might be troubled by it. we shouldn't be troubled by it.

as an american and not troubled by this theology most americans held in that time. i don't think that makes it any less capable of being respected or embraced by americans today as we are changing leaves we are making them more conclusive over time. if we didn't believe that, who have to think that it existed, we are doomed forever to be the same group of people and i don't think we are, we are capable of change and improvement. we don't always go forward, we

want that to be true so we do make mistakes but we are capable of going forward and it enables us to be more open. >> thank you very much for the period the second inaugural. >> and think it's great we read aloud the substantial part of the third paragraph but the question of the speech is the relationship between those paragraphs and the aim is to get to the fourth paragraph and make that call act with charity for all and set the task ahead so i think the theological interpretation opens up space for humanum charity.

think i would call it political theology, it's a political purpose but also important to know the logical interpretation in the civilil war is not presented as certainty. it presented as a supposition. if we shall suppose that and if god wills so a supposition or hypothesis and i think it's part of what protects it from being a crossing of the line between church and state or politics and prevented from being used for purposes. the interpretation is intended on the partan of human beings ad ies think the message is specifically t targeted to

different audiences trying to avert danger of northern arrogance andan persecution aftr the war blaming them as the traders so that wouldn't be helpful after the war. also trying to address the problem and i think that calling american slavery,la not seven or african slavery but american slavery by americans who share in the blame hopes to do what he can to admit and then i think the last sentence of the third paragraph, the one frederick douglass quoted whenever he referred to lincoln, true in

every reference after the war were douglas made reference to thinking he quoted that revelation drop of blood. in a way i think that's what offer african-americans it is admission of the nation's g gui, acknowledgment that god was all along on the side of the slave vision of divine reparations and the fact that frederick douglass lacks the, i think it is an invitation that he understood what he'sth doing there with th. >> thank you very much and thank you to all of you for these important speeches.

we have seven minutes left, i think that is enough time for one more question so how did they react to the convention and black women as well as white women? what final thoughts would you like to share? >> we have no direct of what he said or wrote about the i argued in my book he was a feminist, opposed to the sexual double standard and the wife had every right and in one of his speeches

legislature say he believed all who paid taxes should be able to vote and some people say no females paid taxes so here's the gossip about women and they were for having one tellinghe stories and he was reluctant for any soldiers condemned to death by a court-martial except they have been guilty of rape. and he v took action and acted s

a vigilante and they told him to stop and he didn't and he said lay into it. by temperament and whether the widows and black soldiers, the women have been wives of law holders even if they hadn't been formally married and lincoln said yes, they should be so he sympathized with him. so these were ideals. >> questions aboutt the argumens against possession and whether or not lincoln was correct.

>> the union was perpetual, the constitution did not say it was perpetual but would be more perfect and in the technical sense and obama liked to use it as a complete so the argument on said it was perpetual and made him more perfect and there was no way out. to say in any political union that does include a provision some group of people choose to withdraw and others think they

shouldn't withdraw. the object from the it was just something and in his one term in congress he gave the speech of mexican american embraced the idea in group of people no matter where they were, it revolutionized so he was a revolutionary people debate it was a legitimate will a person who was aligned with the country, he didn't think he had thest option and the way he described it was toci say congrs decided, not the authority to say it was, he felt he needed those efforts and they were not being executed in those states and felt it was his obligation

go e and do what it took to enforce the laws so those who argue it was legitimate can argue it was an act of revolution anticipated by political theories. on the other side they wanted that o knowledge and that's why there was a war. it's an question of saying what side was right or wrong and i guess my concluding thought is it is amazingl to me how much we americans still care about these questions and it's why we have a constitution center and struggle to get questions right today because these issues are central

to who we are as a people and it's the best thing, a mechanism for arguing who we are better than fighting although we did fight on one occasion, we ought not to in the future and they contribute to not fight each other to that will have much time left so i will. this, he had an article very

deliberate on his part and part in the gettysburg address will would be americans so we all have the second and. >> a wonderful challenge challenge 60 then i will send you a congratulations and this the civil discussion will inspire you.

the highest possible way, thank you, friends for joining us, look forward to seeing you again soon. thanks. ♪♪ >> if you enjoy american history tv, sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on your screen to receive a weekly schedule of upcoming programs. the presidency and more. sign up for american history tv newsletter today and watch american history tv every saturday or anytime online at c-span.org/history. >> watch c-span's new series, books that shaped america. we embark on a captivating journey in partnership with the library of congress which first created books that shaped

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