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c-span, powered byt cable. >> and now it is a pleasure to introduce our extremely distinguished panel of america's scholars to discuss lincoln's speeches and the american idea. michael holds the chancellor distinguished chair studies at the university of illinois o springfield. he is the author of several books onln lincoln including lincoln observed the inner world of abraham lincoln and abraham lincoln a life as well as his newll book which we will be discussing tonight, the black man's president abraham lincoln, african-americans and the pursuit of racial inequality. the frankfurter professor, chair of the society of fellows and founding director of the program on jewish and israeli law at harvard university the author of nine books including the three lives of james madison, genius partisan president and his latest book that he will be

discussing tonight the constitution lincoln's slavery and the re- founding of america. diana schaub is professor of political science at the university of maryland and a nonresident senior fellow at the american enterprise institute where she focuses on american political thought and history. she is the author of several books including [inaudible] and her new book is his greatest speeches, how lincoln moved the nation.h let us begin. tell our friends why you argue in your book that lincoln was the black man's president, and you have several speeches of frederick douglass that you begin with including an 1865 on

lincoln where he said people have a better reason for lamenting the death of lincoln than the colored people. what is thean significance of tt speech and why do you believe that lincoln was the black man's president? >> thank you foring the kind introduction andus for inviting us. i feel a little out of place because the central theme of my book is let's not focus on the speeches and writings and policies and the like but lincoln's interaction with people in springfield and washington. but the type of book comes from a eulogy frederick douglass delivered on june 1st 1865 in cooper union the premier site that gives the speech and it was covered widely in the new york press but it's been ignored by historians and in this remarkable speech he says abraham lincoln was preeminently the white man's president. the first to rise above the prejudices of his time and country by inviting frederick douglass to the white house to

consult public affairs lincoln was saying by that gesture i am the president of the black people as well as the white to honor the rights as men and citizens. it is a striking contrast to the speech that is very well known, anthologized and commented on regularly and that is the speech that he gave 11 years later at the dedication of the stitches the emancipation mario and washington in which he says abraham lincoln was preeminently the white man'she president, ani remember when i first encountered this speech in the papers and manuscript i was astounded. i said surely i would have seen this speech in the addition of the speeches at the publishing and i went back to the sources and the speeches were not, that speech was not included. so thatab got me thinking about lincoln and reese in general.

and then kate, a historian at northwestern university publishedly an article recentlyn the white house reception sand blackce people's attendance of white house receptions. in my 2,000 page biography there was a little bit b to say about that but i thought how did i miss so much of the good information she's unearthed so i decided to plunge deepert into that subject and that led me deeperer and deeper into lincols interaction with people in springfield and washington. ..

and so what i found is both an spring film and ind washington with a large number of a black people all who commented on how respectful he was. how kind in how generous. his gestures and actions. based on appeals that indicates to my way of thinking lincoln was an instinctive racial or totalitarian. >> thank you so muchou for that. thank you for calling our attention to the tremendous significance of digitized tax-deferred in our understanding of lincoln. you have argued so powerfully in your t book the original constitution of 1787 as you put it in the "new york times" lincoln fatally inserted under he consciously repeatedly violated core elements as it had

been understood by nearly all americans of that time lincoln affected broke the constitution in 1787 paving the way for something very different to replace it. tell us more about your thesis and the broken constitution? >> think of jaffa. it's an honor to be here with you. i constitution person rather than a lincoln person so i came out of from the constitution itself. among of those who fg work on te founding in 1787 for the most part it might be one or two exceptions, commonly accepted the constitution was a compromise document which one of the central compromises will compromise over slavery. so we have the three fifths compromise famously. in the slave trade would remain. did not recognize at all.

the way the constitution functions. from thatro time up until the civil war but there were moments with a constitutional compromise but congress for the most part managed to re- inscribe the compromise with the variations from the missouri compromise is the most example of this. lincoln supported that structure constitutional compromise throughout his career. because we are mentioning speeches are mentioned inon this context very briefly lincoln address to the young men and springfield in 1838. it mentioned from that is where he is actively defending the constitution is lincoln's statement that we should be aware of people like alexander the great or like caesar or napoleon who is seeking of greatness would be willing to enslave freens men or two free enslaved people. that is to say an act that would

be extraordinary and outside the bounds of constitutional norms would be wrongful he's clearly against it. that is because the constitution existed legally mandated they can s continued existence of slavery in the states that chose to have slavery. so that is lincoln's view. and once he becomes president confronts a reality there is secession at that point but seven states. het' has to decide what to do about that. that takes a fundamental breaking of the constitution. lincoln responded by himself breaking the constitution at mentioned each very briefly. the first is surprisingly don't asmess with think of it as breaking the constitution. the decision to go to work unilaterally to obligate the seceding states to return to the union was not under contemporary constitutional norms and obvious authority or right of the presidency or even the whole government for the buchanan administration official penned by the attorney general embraced

by buchanan in a state of the union address has said thatal although secession is revolution the president congress no part of the federal government the authority to force the t state back into the unit but nothing in the constitution authorizes it as a principal consent of the governor this point shows do not want to give their consent to be governed.ip violated that consent to coerce them back in. lincoln unilaterally in them with the support of congress took up arms to force them back in. the second c breaking was eight suspension of habeas corpus the rights the government grabs you up but has to appear in court you have a reason, put you on trial if you're not convicted let you go. lincoln unilaterally suspended habeaspu corpus war. in cap the suspension in place even after the supreme court via the chief justice issued an opinionn saying is unconstitutional because only congress has the authority.

i was of that is still the view almost all constitutionalel scholars. after the war repudiated the idea without a suspension by congress. martial law could be complied. number 1050 and 40000 people there's a lot ofw debate about how many. over the course of the war without trial without opportunity to appear in court. it's the largest oppression of free expression in american history by a huge margin. last but not least a much more uplifting really as he understood it when the emancipation proclamation. formally freeing enslaved people in areas that were under confederate control. lincoln himself when the war began reiterated his commitments to the idea but slavery was constitutionally protected for ethical talk a little bit tonight about his second to secondinaugural address in te

gettysburg address is received into the lincoln memorial on either side of thed enshrined front of the lincoln memorial is based on a temple. never hear about thehe inaugural address that opens with lincoln saying this is a will or the inclination of thetu constitutional power to change slavery which she said is protective of the constitution. and a lincoln overtime shifted in his view. a lot of details i'm trying to show that. he came to believe it was somehow within his authority as president, as commander-in-chief in wartime. to break the guarantee of property rights. break the fugitive slave clause quite literally is it anyone who escaped would have to be returned to slavery under the conditions of the war the emancipation proclamation the people who escaped would not bee returned and would be free. that's a morally good breaking of the constitution myev view.

but a breaking nonetheless. >> thank you so much the wonderful summary of your book and calling t our attention to e first inaugural. diana i'm going to do something which may not work is try to screen his shirt so one of the text in front of us. exiting everyone can see it. less anyone objects. your project is so inspiring. on the gettysburg address there is so much' here. law and the reason and passion jumps o out. there are other aspects amount to call our attention too. tell us how we should read the address? >> for a minute just say something about the overall thesis of the book and turn.

the book holding it here. we each have books that we should show them. it is a close reading i believe in close and carefull reading of three lincoln speeches first the address the speech he gave as a young man. then the two most famous presidential addresses the gettysburg address and the second inaugural. actually, what i am struck by is how often lincoln anchored his speeches and dates significant dates. it begins with the constitution in the days of 1787 for the 178e gettysburg address as everyone knowss fourscore and seven years ago it takes us to 1776 for the declaration of independence, that it's with the gettysburg address is anchored in. the second inaugural i don't think this is been noted enough.

if you do the reference to 250 years of these slaves unrequited toil it takes you to 1615. he's rounding the number off. so lincoln is aware of the origin dates of slavery on the continents. i argue lincoln really tells the story of american helps us understand america to these three significant dates. the two text and the relationships between those textshe and slavery in the unitd states. the second inaugural deserves to be known as the original and actually better 1619 project. but to go to the speech that he gives as a very young man. i think it is a remarkable address. it's eight diagnosis of the danger that lincoln sees abroad

in the land at the time. i had a more general diagnosis of the problems democracy is prone too. what lincoln notes is the growing prevalence of mob rule throughout the nation there's a there is abreakdown of law and . and the breakdown is triggered he's not talking about looting and rioting. he is talking about vigilante justice. acts of vigilantism. the majorities are driven by their passion for justice. they are running roughshod over the due process and rule of law. you can highlight this you get the diagnosis and then he proposes a solution and his solution is a reverence for the constitutional law. it is law-abiding and not simply

law-abiding this but an attitude in which one obeys the law. the attitude of reverence. that is a diagnosis of the present danger played the second half of the speech is not the present danger of future dangers. lincoln's analysis of passion is really h developed. here he goes back to my famous distinction the ancient full officers use the distinction between the few and the many. and so lincoln says what happens of a person of the founding type is up after the founding? what is that person going to do? what outlet for their vast ambition will be available? he gives his warning against the alexander's, caesar's and the napoleons appeared those who won't be content to be the

41st or the 42nd or 43rd president of united states. they are not consistent to be a custodian house of the fathers. this ambition is morally neutral there are good avenues to pursue like the freeing of the slates it might be done if the evidence of the good have already been trod they will set boldly forth enslaving freemen. there is a problem of an order not ambition there's also a problem on the part of the many. that is the negative passions of human nature jealousy, injury envy, hatred revenge. at the time of the founding those were able to be harnessed towards good ends. you could hate the british and achieve liberty for yourself. but now and in the future those passions would be dangerous.

his denunciation of passion is very strong. passion may have helped this book and do so no more in the future passion will be our enemy. it is significant to note he moved by passion the negative passion. though he does not mean bonds of affection he does not meann friendship. you can look at the first inaugural which says passion is the problem. think of the last paragraph, passion may strain the bonds of affection. we do not want separate us. so his solution for the future danger. he has a double diagnosis, mob rule. the present danger a future danger with the problem of the passion. in a double solution the solution to mob rule is a reverence to constitution and

law. the solution to the dangers ahead of an ordinate ambition and runaway passion. it is recent. i should probably stop there. but i tried to explain how these two solutions could perhaps fit together but how you could recommend both reference? for that. i did so fasten to read it closely with you. you help me understand. these devices of hate and v aree indeed the classical ones for its always negative that he has to constrain it. and then we see as you say the ambition manifested by caesar and alexander are negative examples. thank you pridgen of the screen showing would work.

thank you for inspiring us to do that.. as a jumping off point and do not want to constrain us to close reading. as the anniversary as i call it up how does the gettysburg address fit into your thesis on what joan tells about the gettysburg address? tori i think you're muted. concerts argued by some including commentators striking the gettysburg address does not say thing about slavery the word slavery doesn't appear. but it does seem clear to me the new birth of freedom for emancipation and presumably

first-place citizenship. so even though the address does not have a great tip to say about race and the like, the implication of a new birth of freedom not just the complete emancipation extended not just to the confederate state throughout the country. by implication the 14th amount in the 15th amendment establishing the civil rights for blacks and voting rights for blacks. it is implicit in that notion of a new birth of freedom. lincoln's support for black voting rights for example. it was not articulated publicly until his last public address which he did not know was going to be his last public address on

april 11, 1865 pretty call for black voting rights is to say those who served in the armed forces and those who were very intelligent by which we assume he met literate. now t he had privately recommend that to the governor ofia louisiana. which was the model in lincoln's mind for reconstruction. what can the north expect the south to do to rehabilitate itself politically after the war? in louisiana he had to work very hard to get something like a black civil rights or voting rights including working behind the scenes. he writes a letter upon having been visited by two black gentlemen from new orleans bearing a petition signed by roughly 1000 men in new orleans who said look, we are literate. we are property owners but we

are taxpayers would like the right to vote. lincoln tells him under ourti constitution the eligibility requirements for voting are established by states and not by the federal government. i am very sympathetic but you really have to get the cause additional conventionsns about o meet in louisiana to agree to do that. so he said that to these gentlemen but take the step for the writes letter to the governor g saying i suggest in e new constitution it's going to be drawn up include voting rights at least for the veterans of the union army in the very intelligent. and the fact lincoln as part of the new birth of freedom publicly announces two days after robert e lee surrenders is a noteworthy shifting away from a rather moderate position on reconstruction too much more radical position.

frederick douglas said i was in the audience that day on april 11, 1865 and i was disappointed in scope of the recommendation because it was so limited just to the veterans of the armed forces and the intelligence. we should haveon recognized the many my abolitionist friends were disappointed but we should have recognized there was an extremely important speech because abraham lincoln learned his statesman's ship and rail splitting it was through the thin edge into the log ain't driving with the big hammer, a mall. we should have known what abraham lincoln inserted the thin edge of the wedge publicly you could count on him to drive home the thick wedge. there is one judgment and the irs to appreciate his significance. not his last speech is ever going to give him going to run them through and three days later not to issue the emancipation proclamation and

not because he supported the 15th or 13thut amendment. bobby called because he call for black voting rights it's appropriate for us the 21st century to regard lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights iss much as martin luther king or midler evers or anyone who was murdered in the 1960s as a champion civil rights revolution of that time. >> thank you very much indeed for that. right biblical imagery in that address which change for lincoln which is a non- religious and could now describe the union and the constitution and very provocatively o argue new birth and the teaching of rebirth in christ. tell us about that fascinating. the gettysburg address and what else you want? you can also introduce in the other speeches you think are important to help us understand

the thesis of your book. thanks. well, lete me start by saying plaintiff people have seen classical greek overtones is unquestionably there gary wells is very actively into this. the speech suffused biblical language in a biblical idea of morality.in it's beginning of lincoln articulate in his own world vision of the entire history of the united states for the second inauguraln address which may be will come to the next round of conversations most explicit about doing that in my view starting to do that in the gettysburg address. the three score and seven is self-consciouslyns publicizing s asa biblical. almost all of whom. biblical language general morale 19th century americans believed morality was derivative of the bible. i believe protestant directed to

morality. the moral terms. enshrined slavery. until the emancipation proclamation but i was talking about. within morality. that put them in a contradictory situation after emancipation is able to describe is fundamentally moral. when you said that our country dedicated to this proposition all men are created equal. he could not have said that about the constitution until he broke the constitution. because the concentration is not dedicated to the proposition. the constitution in stride slavery. he could reconceptualize as country in these terms for this is where the new birth of freedom part comes in.

talked abouts this i think is n the office when the earlier readers of the book. a new birth is very resonant phrase for 19th century american protestant christians. all recognize immediately the idea of new birth in christ. i am not arguing lincoln was making a conscious argument. of protestant moral thought which was ideas. to express. the idea he didn't superseded by christian liberty in the new testament. the new birth of freedom would supersedepr the slavery presentn the original constitution. the country would then be reborn and we have this idea more fully in the inaugural address. going to be improper fulfillment of morality that were present in

the original declaration of independence. but were not present in the constitution. that is the explanation for why lincoln was able to use this religious language. both in the gettysburg address in the second inaugural he was freed up to do so by emancipation. with the immoral qualities of the constitutional pop and opened to a moral accounting. that was a very appropriate at a funeral that was in a way for people who had died. eventually in the second inaugural lincoln would give specifico meaning to the deaths of the people who died fighting in the war. >> thank you very much for that. not i'm going to call the gettysburg address. we almost know by heart. what should we know about the gettysburg address?

>> it began by just saying i agree with noaa about the capresent of the biblical langue the gettysburg m address. but i don't think that is new. in fact i think that is present in his rhetoric from the beginning producing at the very end of the address where he quotes from the bible the gates of shall not prevail against it. draws a connection between the only greater institution, the church and the united states. but soon i sit on the position of pharaoh and the enslaved blacks in the hebrews. the house divided against itself cannot stand. it's always been present in his rhetoric. a word about about lincoln's

thinking about the constitution and the declaration. anchored in the constitution. lincoln is a dedicated constitutionalist and unlike know what he remains a dedicated constitutionalist. the crisis over the house divided developed, lincoln's attention and the speeches shifts from the institution to the declaration of independence break begins in 1852 with the eulogy to henry clay but he begins that speech by saying on the fourth of july 1776. but the 1850s. the reason they have to do that that reason his textual horizon shifts is because americans in

the 1850s are beginning to repudiate the self-evident truth of the declaration. they are doing this in an outright manner who have taken to calling the self-evident truth self-evident lies. they are doing it other ways. more insidious ways folks like steven douglas and roger b tani. i think is as repudiate her's of the principle of liberty for all become stronger lincoln has to demonstrate their error. so throughout the 1850s he appealed to the declaration speech after speech and not just appeals to the gives expectations of the declaration. what properly understood what they mean.re it's only by re- adapting the declaration with slavery's extension can be met. hen i think his decade of reflection on the meaning of the

declaration really reaches its culmination in the gettysburg address. the 30 word sentence with the which he begins the gettysburg address. it is quite remarkable that post gettysburg lincoln does not again encourage the declaration. it's as if his thought about hat had achieved its final form. that is the statement once all americans to memorize. one other point about the new birth of freedom. i agree it makes sense for emancipation. the steps that will follow. i also believe that perhaps the most fundamental is that if the

union is victorious that of secession. will be refuted. constitutes a new birth of freedom. that's what is necessary to returno of the sounding fathers. that's a usual way of reading it but lincoln said about the meaning of the war and other places. the proper understanding of the relationship between ballots and bullets but one should agree to be bound by the ballots you do not get to have recourse back to bullets. that's basically a lesson in democratic theory.

>> thank you very much for that. >> the last text is the second inaugural. i'm going to give myself the greatgr pleasure as a moderatorf reading the famous last which we all do know give the thoughts on the speech. malice toward no attorney for all comp with fullness in the way as god gives us. but a strive on the work we are in. to care for him who shall borne the battle for his widow and his worker to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and our nations. michael, was snow but the second inaugural? >> the final paragraph as the one people know best. frederick douglass and that speech i mentioned earlier the eulogy of june 1, 1865 is

similar remarkable paragraph is one that immediately precedes it. he which lincoln starts off recording jesus. into the world because of offenses. the defenses come. but, go on to that man by whom the offense, and he goes on to say official suppose one of those offenses with theds providence of god must needs come. having pastors appointeded timee now wills to remove it. he gives to both north and south this terrible war as they do unto them by whom the offense came. we discern any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in the living god have ever ascribed and have always ascribed to him? i fervently do we pray this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. but if god wills toil shall be

sunk. all will be paid by another drawn by the sword. so it must be said as was said 3000 years ago the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. frederick douglass said this is truly remarkable notion. this reveals the depths of c commitment and racial equality. to say on an occasion the second inaugural address of a president. something to theeo effect god hs punished white people for having enslaved black people. in the war has gone on so long because the scales have to be balanced. there been 250 years of unrequited toil. a lot of income is generated by that it has to be an amount of white property equal to the back

wages that were denied the slaves to be destroyed. and then a notion -- we have to remember this war was incredibly bloodied. the tablet total number of deaths roughly seven or 50000. on a population basis one tenth the population. imagine if we lost seven half-million men in the war against terror. the scope of the blood shut was extraordinary. frederick douglass would sayay that. impressive frederick douglass profoundly as well it might. reflecting on the nation's ordeal but for a president to say that is truly extraordinary.

i think douglass' understanding of that and how radical it was and how deep it was. i might reflected a sense of justice and its compassion for blacks is truly remarkable. that paragraph deserves to be more carefullysc scrutinized thn the more famous final paragraph that follows it. quick thinking for calling our attention to it and thank you for reading it. andy now the second inaugural progressives agree with this emphasis on that paragraph i've seen that paragraph amount to what we call the political theology of the united states for political theology is the use of religious ideas distinctively religiousal ideaso explain political eventsha and o give them meaning. i think what lincoln is doing is offering a version i would not call a secularized but the theology that's heavily

dependent on protestant christian ideas so in this picture slavery could be a real sin. something had to happen. much as originals seem an early protestant theology. with it any. inevitable reality nevertheless a fundamentally evil and cynical. nothing that can cleanse original sin's as a sacrifice of christ through his blood. used bite lincoln as a substitute for christ blood. it is passionately technical sense christ passion suffering that forgives original sin that is what's going on o here. the blood of the civil war who were themselves martyrs is being used theologically to cleanse the united states of the original sin of slavery.

what emerges from t this is a nw world where it is possible to view the entire picture righteous in the eyes of god it because it is a judgment. there has been sin and the sin has beenel purged. i think as michael mentioned earlier because lincoln himself was assassinated came to function and the political theology he devised as a martyr of the process of emancipation. because of the failure of segregation of black people was necessary for the civil rights movements arm bring about a further reduction of the guarantee of freedom. here it was martin luther king jr. played essential role. i thought an accident is most

famous speech he too was assassinated becoming a further murder of this of the constitution p a price is being paid the price of blood and sacrifices being paid to try to cleanse o us of this length sine of slaveryry and racism. that is a fit theology that still with us. deepened and made more powerful but civil rights movements. that is why we have martin luther king day part of our official or unofficial american theology. now, i just want to add to that there might be some listeners that feel troubled by the idea are geologists so derivative of christian stories and ideology. after all we do have in our constitution and our free exercise clause. lots of us would like to bleed of separation of church and

state not everyone agrees i think that's a good way to formulate it. the key point to recognize as it comes to that narratives, including national narratives by the people living in theo county at the time according to their own moral incidents and judgment. there are a few jews or muslims are also overwhelming. now we are country of much greater diversity and as a consequence we secularize these ideas so much so we cannot recall or realize the christian or we might be troubled by it. wewe should not be troubled by . cards on the table was raised jewish. still committed to jewish tradition as an american i'm not troubled by the idea the lincoln spoke eight moral language most americans of the timeimim held t moral language was christian.

jumping makes it any less capable of being honored and respected or endless capable of being embraced by americans today. because we are capable of updating and changing our beliefss and of keeping our narrative keeping the more inclusive over time. and we havedi to believe that because if we didn't believe that we would have to think not with lincoln but unlike lincoln that because of the racism and slavery that existed in the origins we are doomed forever as a country to be just that same group of people. i don't think we are we are capable of change. we are capable of expansion per we are capable of improvement we don't always get what we do it right we don't always go forward. king said the ark of the universe tends toward justice be one thought to be true but it's not always in a straight line. we do make mistakes and sometimes go backwards but we are capable of going forward that enabled us to be more expansive and more open.

orcorrect thank you very much indeed for last ordered on the second inaugural is to t you. >> it ishe greatly read aloud bh the fourth paragraph any substantial part of the third paragraph i think it's a question of the speeches what is the relationship between the third paragraph and the fourth paragraph's aim is to get to the fourth paragraph to make that call to act with malice with charity for all. and set the task ahead. it is a theological interpretation makes it possible, it opens up the space for human charity. i don'tit think i would call a political theology. i think it's real theology with the political purpose. it's also important to note the meaning of the civil war is not

presented as a certainty. it's presented bite lincoln as a supposition. we shall suppose that. it is a supposition or a hypothesis. i think that is what protects it from being some kind of crossing of the line between church and state or religion and politics. it also prevents it from being used for purposes of fanaticism. it's intended to induce humility on the part of human beings. it specifically targeted for three different audiences. lincoln is trying to avert the danger of northern arrogance. northern persecution after the war. blaming them as for traders who started the work. i'm w though they were the trads

who started the war. that won't be helpful after the war. also he's trying to address the problem of southern recalcitrance. i think that calling it america slaves not southern slavery not african slavery went all americans are white americans being able to share inme that blame he hopes to do what he can to induce the south to admit the fault. i think that last sentence the one frederick douglas always quoted whenever he referred to lincoln. every other reference after the war work frederick douglass made reference to lincoln he quoted that divine sentence. the one about 200 years of unrequited toil every drop of i

think in a way that's what is offered to african-americans. it is an admission of the nation's guilt. heit is an acknowledgment god ws all along on the site of the slaves. it is a vision of divine reparations. the fact frederick douglass so it latched onto that passage is an indication he understood what he was doing there. >> thank you very much great thanks to all of you for this wonderful of these essentially so many. we have just seven minutes (i think there's time for one question to each of you i'm very brief closing thoughts.

how c did they react to the sena falls convention for black women as well as white f women customr as well as a blackman what final thoughts would you like to share? >> we have no direct allusion anything we can wrote about. i've argued in my book kind of a proto- feminist. the supposedly sexual double standard of a husband with marriage vows the wise had every right to do so. in one of his speeches and running for reelection to the state legislature he h believed all folks who payay taxes or served in the militia should be able to vote straight not excluding females. some people sneered at that and

said no female paid taxes but what widow certainly did. he also refused to gossip about women all of the men were forever telling stories the lack of virtue of this or that or the other. lincoln reviews have anything to do withh that. he also, as president was very reluctant to sign execution orders for soldiers have been condemned except that they've they beenguilty of rape. then he showed no hesitation during that, signing that. he took vigilante action. acted as a vigilante and punishing a wife beater. an lincoln and his friends told to stop it for he did not stop it so they went and hauled him out instantly into it.

lincoln was bite temperament a fair-minded young man who simply with the notion of feminism. and d as for black women during the war a question arose whether the widows of black soldiers -- --the women who had been in eft wives of a black soldier should get a pension even if they not been formally married. linda said yes, yes they should be given. he sympathized with the black women in that particular context. ii think in general he was sympathetic to the ideas and ideals that were enunciated at seneca falls. >> thank you very much indeed for that. several questions with the constitutional arguments against osecession and whether or not lincoln was correct to argue it was unconstitutional as well. >> thanknk you. the ark of the confederations of the unit was perpetual. the constitution should not say

it was perpetual. it did say it would be more perfect. perfect in the technical sense not in the contemporary sense by president obama like to use it but in the sense of complete. the arguments on the link inside of the articles of confederation made the union perpetual. constitution made a more perfect muslim injustice perpetual or more perpetual therefore there is no wayy out. probably most honest and sophisticate answers a state in union that does not include explicit provision of withdrawal of some group of people choose to withdraw and others think they should not withdrawal it's very hard to give an objective answer whether permitted or not. but the effective it is revolutionary. members of the free regeneration there's nothing wrong being revolutionary. this is true for americans of lincoln's generation revolution le something people did. in fact one term of congress

gave a speech was speaking about the mexican-american war wasan referring to embrace the idea in the group of people no matter where they work the best way to think about it he was a revolutionary and people at the time debated whether he was legitimate and just revolution or an illegitimate revolution. from lincoln's perspective as a person who is d actually were in the country he did not think he had the option of accepting this as a gesture legitimate revolution. but he described it was to say congress could decide that if it wanted to wish he onav his own d not have the authority to say it was just. he felt the need to execute the laws of the loss of not being executed in those states. therefore he felt it was his obligation based on the oath registered in heaven as he put it his first inaugural to go out and do what it took to enforce those w laws. those who want to argue secession was somehow legitimate can argue it was legitimate as an active revolution that is

anticipated by the political theory of theth declaration. those on the other side went to not legitimate also something to rely on for that is why there is a war. that is why we fought a war over this. it leaves the question of the outcome of the worst right or wrong. may or may not be true descriptively it's probably not true morally. my concluding thoughts on all of this is it is amazing to me how much we, as americans, still care about these questions. i think this will have national constitution center is what we struggles of constitutional constructions right today. these issues are central to who we are as people. that's the best thing you can say is the mechanism for arguing about who we are that is better than fighting for although we did fight on one occasion we ought not to do so in the future

and work of the national constitution is to contribute to not fighting each other. >> thank you for this kind words thank you for contriving so well to that inspiring commission which i know we all share. the last word is to you. some of lincoln's speeches are famous for being very short is that intentional does that impact the constitutional ideas, your thought as we close this wonderful program? >> yes and i don't think i've much time left to answer this. i will try to be as brief as lincoln. he acquires this gift for brevity you see it especially in the gettysburg and second inaugural. i think it's very deliberate on his part. part of it, especially the gettysburg address as he hoped it would be memorized by americans. my suggestionco is we all commit

both the gettysburg address and second inaugural to memory. >> what a wonderful challenge. let's take up that challenge. if you succeed and memorize it would say either the gettysburg address of the second inaugural, right to me journalism at constitution center.org and let me know i'll send you a congratulations. we will let diana, noaa and michael know about it. they will be as pleased as i am this a deep civil rigorous discussion will have inspired you to commit the sacred words to memory. constitutional conversation and the highest possible tradition, thank you so much. thank you friends for joining us thanks, good night.

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