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through history. all people are created equal. the citizenship and around title ix. disciplinary obligations and you get a seat at the table in society so they will moderate tonight will discuss the topics for about an hour and ten minutes. after that we will open up for

any questions. we will keep her the homeless tonight. as our conversations go, don't worry if you miss anything. this is being recorded, indiana history. i want to take a moment to remind us all understanding as we navigate mental and physical health. holistically about what is available 100 years later and

introducing are panelists. >> thank you. i am a carrier here at the historical society, we are met with probably doctor james in pennsylvania and the indiana historical bureau.

a heritage political reporter advocate. it is the league of women voters in the seven association for medicine and science. history of medicine society but a politician and for state and local history. the film school is on this

treatment and development integration in that program and the consultant and the eca in the societies board honoring the lifelong and the chronically ill so leave it in at the end of the

rear and the state library and she is the organizing forecast and she writes regularly for the blog and the light long it may. she received two from the history and awards and indiana for humanities and science are. she came with husband and in the background.

collaborative first, since 2016 in the struggle society. so let's talk about eugenics. in 1883 it was psychologists term eugenics meaning wellborn. the practice is to improve genetic quality through selective breeding encouraging reproduction with strongest humans and discouraging for the weakest. remote early 20th u century eugenics programs received

public support and to two approaches. positive and negative. it encourages people to have above average intelligence to reproduce. negative discourages reproduction and advocated for sterilization and no undesirable traits. court rulings and promoters and early advocates director of eugenics office new york significantly shaped legislation policy in the united states. margaret, a strong advocate who also supported eugenics known as the founder of birth control

internalization of those were considerably unfit. in the 1820s and 30s american eugenics society in addition to societies across the country competing in better baby competition including division of infant and child hygiene at the indiana state fair 19221932 and she goes on. all to thank you all for sitting through the. let's get to the heart of the discussion. we know indiana was the first to make union, would anybody like to take on history?

>> growing in many parts of the country they have been introduced in other states so 1907, indiana had a unique that allowed this legislation and one of these was the same leaders havinguc successes in the public health w policy were also at the forefront so people like the indiana state and have led successful campaigns,

tuberculosis and sanitation he believed this would help make it stronger, not able to be separated. the interest in eugenics came from the core, a losing battle so he became a eugenics proponent and there is a long list of other people. after harry to help in conducting an jeffersonville so

these leaders were able to widely and it was scientific authority on one hand and moral authority on the other. >> the medical history museum in indiana, the attack about what your institution needs to be before. >> what we call the old pathology building, the first date that opened in 1848 and

cutting edge research facility dedicated to studying milton on his and hopefully preventing them in the future. even before, their doctors were pushing ideas in the early 80s about the hereditary nature and rediscovery and renewed interest in the idea of criminality and poverty and traits that were inherited so a growing sense

that they couldn't be cured by controlling the environment so it was to prevent people from breeding so the doctors called for castration at times. that was universally unpopular and people were advocating for it. restrictions of marriage and isolation of u people and is fairly new at the time and they

were perfect effective at preventing the production. >> great. well, not great but -- [laughter]to forced sterilization upon women you gave great examples of male and female in terms of gender discrimination so it is important to understand the intentions behind the movement within the lens of this medical knowledge, how can we better understand how they were approaching this to benefit societyy?

everybody from pennsylvania to chime in on this. >> certain understanding of biological principles from the origin of species, ideas of natural selection and genetics laid out and optimistic view we could in a simplistic way improve our gene pool.

>> the survival of the fittest those factors can lead to crime and a response to crime from traditional church led solutions and they are unfit in society and economically sound in the institution.

>> mental deficiency criminality of things that were inherited traits of person couldn't have sold hope was to pour money into care for these people so use services are not only helping these people survive but they are driving and it's believed they were reproducing at an alarmingin rate so there is this idea that services and charities keeping these people going, these are people who, in nature,

natural selection survival of the fittest, those kinds of things but ensures the died out so we are keeping them going in it was a drain on the economy describing people as useless not only for society and for the circumstances so it helped get that through.

>> this enabled this to link the cultivation to sterilization to be effective so we named some people, what were some of the organizations or basic ideological framework? >> sterilization instead of focusing on restricting only undesirable, this was moreas abt encouraging to reproduce and help so organized by the state board of health held at the indiana state fair and workers distributed returns and a lot of

educational components and they think their efforts to mortality rate and have to remember they have the time and resources to travel to the stateha fair and white healthy babies were receiving this information and these ideas about white supremacy and women babies were white and also educational

marriage laws in the country in 1905 prohibiting disease and workers and what we see in the legislative forefront. can we talk more about the? >> presenting people who thought to contribute, i think it was pretty obvious.

>> isolation segregation is the other side and restrictions on who's been married and a lot of people ended up just in those hospitals but institutions for able minded and other institutions who were segregated from society and isolated and if they were cap there out of society that they wouldve be prevented in the 1907 law comes after the. >> the legal f framework, producing families and also to

come into the united states in terms of immigration law, and he talked to us a little more about that? >> always been concerned about who is not american and the first naturalization law passed in 1790 excluded off americans from citizenship. in 1882 we regulate immigration which inhibited might become a public charter from entering the united states and prevent people

who are maybe impoverished circumstances in the chinese exclusion act which is that target so this kind of thinking which is more popular in 1824 through a system that target specific groups by origin so these undesirablewi groups included eastern and southern european groups and singled out jewish immigrants.

leaving eugenics thinkers and record office came up the beginning and collect the data claimingan immigrants in these areas are more likely to become a public charge. those deemed unfit which is probably a term that the people came in and made it american and this origin.

he talked about it will double times the model and at the same time say doctor indiana and it is his wording. fast-forward institution in the late 30s still advocating for this system. in the 30s to employees and they impacted them.

>> you can see a lot of that work in a public charge in the uniteds states with this movemt and you could look up paul s taylor and 20s, 30s era and they talk about early mexican population and all of that stuff for patronization, a fair 1 million mexican or nativeborn heritage.

>> we have needed them as laborers. >> you are encouraged to come across the united states and they should be kept out. >> it's pretty reactive. >> before we move beyond, circling the two before immigration, there was a movement and people who couldn't

take care of themselves or they needed to be cared for procreation part of a longer-term solution so it wasn't idealism and the realization they need fair and not part of the genetic disorder and sometimes increased understanding of infectious disease so you do get into where jermaine took in with no seat area. >> this was something and i, keeping doctors out of what we

now call psychiatry so baker started opening up stations for people be given a lot of fresh air and sunshine and they did have success, there was evidence people improved because of that when governments open he's hospitals and doctors get involved, we were limited in terms of these diseases we didn't have effective therapies and offenses probably should then quickly overwhelmed hospitalssa so all of these this

in these hospitals so mid to late 19th century bill of patient not being adequately paid for and they were in the first place in the staff are well-trained so you see outcomes so that contributed, mental diseases were not what we thought because look at the hospitals filling up with patients that they are not eegetting better so you start seeing that shift charity mentioned. you see a decrease in that's when they made it the most so

there is a difference in things like disorders not hereditary but it isst interesting how quickly that went. >> in bolivia and the quakers but people who were incarcerated, a very idealistic idea that was sort of spiritual transformation, quiet places. part of the idea that maybe something could be done with it. >> state institutions when they were getting overcrowded facing

former challenges so trading consent, trying to get out of the institution in a way that sterilizationhe increases in depression. >> both of them were done between the early 30s and 50s and let the state hospitals go, you don't really see them but the superintendent

more of lack of surgeons so what's unfortunate is we have an idea of the system but we don't know whoiz was paralyzed, we dot even know the different hospitals but he talks later in his life about how they were reporting zero because there was no one there to perform them.

>> institutionalization, what were common reasons to be is institutionalized but treatable and incarceration? >> the understanding of these things change but you feel mania and dementia in the early years you don't get a diagnosis but this person in this religion or

you know, more of the issues they were facing rather than a diagnosis and after the 40s. >> it's hard for greater than 50% of the people, syphilis by far was the most significant. at some time the separation between adults who required this children or use of have a

disability and a typical farm family would absorb slower individual intellectual disabilities but there was a sense that they went to an institution and the were some of the worst. at least made them more manageablerl as well as early parts of the movement. they have overcrowding and one

can really critique this. >> go ahead. >> things you might t institutionalized for, alcohol is more epilepsy, mental illness and a neurological condition and we wouldn't even consider it mental illness until they were listed as an official diagnosis. >> in the 40s and 50s we didn't have a two class system of both the hospitals and it

wasn't a lot of personal choice or autonomy but women had hysteria the most hard to stomach. >> i wanted to circle back because you mentioned, can you talk about what this is? some of have this understanding, a basic understanding if you could unpackaged that for us. >> now it would be symptoms that people now would have and either

unidentified although people kind of knew what syphilis was without knowing the specific cause but people would develop dementia, confusion, basically a brain disease easily prevented the often misdiagnosed us to bring you or dementia. >> we did talk during world war ii that a lack of sterilization, did discontinue in the united states beyond 1945?

that wasn't really declared. >> we are going to break away briefly to keep our over 40 year commitment to cover congress. we take you live to the u.s. senate where lawmakers are holding what we believe will be a brief session today. no votes are expected. l come to. the parliamentarian will read a communication to the senate. the parliamentarian: washington, d.c., september 1, 2023. to the senate: under the provisions of rule 1, paragraph 3, of the standing rules of the senate, i hereby appoint the honorable tammy duckworth, a senator from the state of illinois, to perform the duties of the chair. signed: patty murray, president pro tempore. the presiding officer: under the previous order, the senate stans adjourned until 3:00 p.m., september 5, 2023. making is,

okay.mber 5, 2023. making is, and just to kind of bring it up to little bit to present to bring it up to present day, other issues in healthcare around the ideas of reproduction education, medical care for institution or other ideas so what is medical care for incarcerated look like today

compared to historically, one of the biggest concerns regarding bodily economy? i know this isd a question more towards you. >> in terms of the treatment, the practices that involve that and i think the question of reproductive rights and choices can later on top of that but into the 60s and 70s civil rights emergence but included patients and people they deserved to have more autonomy

are better off with the family, often they were encouraged to go where parents weren't always t happy with that decision. the last will kennedy signed was the beginning of the health act which at its core, changed the decision about reasons for hospitalization, changed it from the model and psychiatrists but the best interest to be held against her will and dangers to self or others. declining treatment for

involuntary treatment and just because your spouse thought it would be good for you or your doctor wasn't enough to get them hospitalized against their will. that was happening the same time effective medical treatments for serious mental illness were they were so they like the idea of getting that money back, there was movement toward institutionalization. i think particularly folks with limited capacity, legal capacity to make their decisions and questions around

reproductive they change and pills in particular, longer acting echo choices for birth control which were temporary birth control, not permanent and entered the picture and changed the dilemmas and caregivers and family members. on the ground and recently i worked where there were programs for people who met the criteria for the wraparound program with .ousing we have a woman dhs services supported during that choice,

she lost both children and once we had to be the reporter, really was not in a position to doup that so those are some rare areas that occur now but where i see pressure there might be somebody on a three-month shot in their care member family member make sure they make that appointment. keep track of that and also the best interest even if it's their stated goal in the past so those are thoughts on where c we have come.

>> in the historical era, they do have historical markers so therea is a historical marker in 1807 legislation and you can't put itry in the ground so can yu talk about the historical marker program and what it looks like? >> 1907 and a few different

organizations to recognize those. more so people can see it. doctor william schneider who is a professor in history and professor of medical humanities

so the application for the barker as well as discussions kind of like what we are doing today and looking back on indiana so the kind of explains the law and some context. it is the state library so i don't have the information but it seems the first attempt was to put it and it did not go

through but also the library does the library does but i think the idea was to walk past itit and the statehouse, it migt have been ahe tiny step to unvel the marker, one of the last people sterilized in indiana and it was under that guise.

>> before we open up discussion tond attendees about this, dropt into the chat. all right, last question. we talked about a wide variety of topics in different areas but what you think is the most important thing we should take from the conversation? >> especially most vulnerable citizens and legislation has

these to make our own choices. looking at healthy societies, decisions on how to help people in the economics of politics for pseudoscience and humanity, fit or unfit, or the or unworthy, we note people cannot be those things and cannot be illegal and people seeking asylum especially children argue and allow these policies and policies mainly.

other hateful policies and a lot of this language organizing americans first and what we talked about today in protecting these rights. >> the idea of what if i changed over time, toit?

>> take away. >> one thing is is did happen slowly and notki without resistance but these things progress and can't argue and they want to people so many of them did think they were doing good works and they wanted -- they call themselves progressive and want to make positive change in society but it was colored by theirei own stances and situatis and they have diversity of background or religion or culture or worldview for

priority so very close minded effort to make things better and hurt people from also doomed to fail because it is based on their idea and something people could easily because they have misunderstandingser and genetics and science so they didn't really understand but it made sense to them and reinforce their own ideas. ...

trying to be diplomatic. it allowed people to very easily embrace this idea that people who w were poor or people who ae from someplace else or live different or who were suffering from mental illnesses or were mentally deficient, that they were less human, that they were entitled to fewer rights and

that they should be grateful and happy to contribute to society by giving us their own bodily autonomy in the name of the greater good, to improve society which of course meant for the most part middle and upper-class white american society. i should stop. >> okay. dr. bechtol, what you feel like his most important thing our viewers can take away from this conversation from your perspective? >> yeah, i have two thoughts. one, that in in a way when is to scientific information knowledge, that becomes part of sort of the lay language, like happened with evolution and mendelian genetics, that even the science didn't really have a lot of details and had its own

built-in humility to it. but people took that and ran. and i think that tendency is with us today. there are still a lot we don't know. in my field of psychiatry we still don't know much at all about the cost -- we don't know much about the brain. we don't know much about the causes most mental illnesses, certainly made progress. andd yet we are only one of two countries our planet that allows direct to consumer advertising, so everybody you know thinks the science is a lot further along than it is, that these medications that are on television have a lot of clarity in terms of the use. it makes my life crazy, go ask your doctor. no thanks. and in the other thought is if we really go back to the term

eugenics, better baby, eugenics is alive and well at a think the progress is that weng are not focus on cutting off the lower or purifying from below but there's a lot of pressure toward pulling up from above, human enhancements, fertility counseling and clinics, people who can go to a sperm bank catalog and pick from various traits who's going to be co-conceiving their child. so that impulse towards a better collective human race is there but we need to be cautious. we really need to be cautious about it. >> great. we have a question directly for sarah. wondering about the obsession with religion as a

mental disorder in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. could you please talk about that more? >> well, it was beyond just like somebody who would be devoutly religious to these would be people who took things too fanatical level. you might described as like mania but it was just, there were the same, and this is more mid m to late 19th not much the 20th century but you see might be like an obsession with anything. there were people who were obsessed with politics and to appoint what impacted their lives and other people around them, and so that's kind of what they were referring to. not just people who were deeply religious, but. >> okay. noel says i've heard the turn religious melancholia -- the

term. >> yeah, it's a lot in the same lines. the thing about these, and it wouldn't call them a diagnosis. these are more a description of symptomst that people were categorized before, before they were like systematic diagnoses, and even that changed over time but you see a lot of people who just, they just have this inability to deal with their surroundings and the world, and so they react in different ways. some people might become like obsessively manic about something, and others might go the opposite direction. >> another frame for that more from a religious definition is like dark night of the soul, sort of a spiritual crisis. it's been written about and

describe sort of a crisis of meaning especially for people who relied on their religion significantly and then have a real crisis of meaning. i'm guessing that might be what she is talking about. >> that some of it, too, yeah. >> okay. other questions also towards sarah, sarah, hot topic tonight. jill talked about the unveiling of thehe bureau, the marker in somebody who was a guest the last legally sterilize person ending yet it. sarah, with your work you do about of research on individuals and really kind of moving beyond being a a specimen and the pathology lab and giving them a story and kind of giving them a second life. but can you give us some specific examples of individuals and reasons from central state

that were from individuals that were forcibly sterilized? >> unfortunately, i can't really. one of the problems is that these numbers weren't reported in any detail. so the kinds of records that we have access to don't really indicate specifically who was sterilized or even how many from each individual hospital for the most part. where that information lies when it exists at all is within the patient's medical records, and they are protected after their death. some of those are now becoming accessible, but a lot of those records have been available to researchers to compile them. we don't know a whole lot about those. the kinds of things that, in

1907 law made it, made compulsory sterilization legal for people who were deemed mentally ill or mentally deficient but there were various terms that would apply in those categories, criminals could also be if they were like constitutionally criminal, but all those things are open to interpretation by the physician, that the early log required that two surgeons at the institution, i don't know why my camera stopped, required that two surgeons at the institution investigate candidates and then sign off on the sterilization. they were to interpret that -- they were free to interpret and how they would. in 1907 law billy focus on the mentally deficient, mentally ill and the criminals were sort of cut out of that second law.

anda the system changed a litte bit, the process. the superintendent of an institution could decide who was the candidate for sterilization make a awould recommendation to whatever that institutions governing board they would have a hearing where the patient and their family, , if the assembly around and physicians would all testify, within the governing board a decision about sterilization. it was expanded and i think 1931 to allow like courtroom judges to make that determination as part of the like commitment process. so you wouldts have these reques and before the person even ended up at the central did hospital or an institution they could be determined that they were eligible for sterilization. that did require that two physician sign off on it but it didn't have to be any particular physician. i mean, the kinds of things that

would make you eligible were kind of varying and open to interpretation. >> you talked about those recordss -- sorry, we're going o say something? >> to sort of people are interested in some of these case studies like sarah said, records are really far from missing. there is a e pretty easily accessible indiana magazine a history article, you can just search the archives online. the authors last name is stern and it's from 2007 and she does give a few case studies from the research on individuals that were sterilized. she starts off the article talking about the for sterilization of one of the inmates at the indiana reformatory in jeffersonville.

and so he was incarcerated for just for petit petty larcs one of the people that wrote to governor thomas marshall to say that he was forcibly sterilize come that he didn't agree to a vasectomy and even physically resisted the doctor in the operating room. so these kinds of stories with some of the things that prompted governor marshall to put a stop to sterilization, the constitution of theas law. so yeah, center is actually right the records are sparse but there are a few of those individual stores in that article. i could probably drop it inne. e jet. >> actually i think -- you can d see the pedigree chart from 1918 i think of this individual. >> that is it. that was fast work.

>> are there any other questions? let me check out -- >> nicole, we have some good questions in the, chats i will just go ahead -- >> go ahead. i'm trying to -- >> one question is back to present day, that there are some stories floating around the views in social media that is financially encouragingio sterilization for individuals whols are homeless and also opid addicts cannot injure a child -- seen some videos that encourages payments are going to get their tubes tied or vasectomy or

whatever the case may be. but this t is prevalent? what seems to be the psychiatric opinion about sterilization when it comes to the opioid addicts today? >> i don't know, that's interesting. i've notot heard that. i know threat been other assets mentioned earlier like around the intended to get release from an institution, there's been subtle and not just subtle coercion. i think states informally with people who are having a a numr of children who were on the welfare rolls, sometimes would be some conditionality, formal or informal, read some pressure toward that. it makes me nervous.

it also does have the distinction of not being sold against their will. so it's a different than other types of pressures. >> to me, that people would be encouraged to have their tubes tied or whatever specifically they are proposing, because when i was in my early 20s i wanted to have my tubes tied, and my doctor refused to do it. because hee was certain that i would change my mind and i would want to have children, and i was not smart enough to know what i wanted of what was for me. and so i i was not able to dot when i did want that. i think it's interesting. i didn't think about it like positive eugenics at the time, but that's --

>> yeah,. [inaudible] >> i would be more inclined to say that that's kind of disrespectful to people who are opioid dependent because i think especially for that condition, they haven't lost their sense of personal morality and responsibility, i do think it is sometimes hard for them to get access to the birth control that they want. so, you know, so i would see that. >> are there any other questions for our panelists? i see the question that is some states are, in similar vein as the opioid pandemic, epidemic, and that encouragement. some states are also offering

sentence reduction prisoners who volunteerco for ieds. since these are so cars but reversible sterilization procedures. in your individual opinions, do you think these reversible procedures that are coerced are still part of an example of eugenics conversation? >> in that vein, for sure. >> yeah, i would say i don't, i don't really see a lot, sort of i i would say don't see a lot of situations where i would imagine that coercion. there's a lot of prohibition against that type of coercion, more than it being likely. i think we've shifted to another place when we are managing, giving people access to their

choices. i think that would be a lot of forces up against that pretty easily. a lot of guardrails now. >> i think we talked about that historically earlier. the trade is your freedom. >> okay. in the last final thoughts, parting words that you really want our audience to kind of take away with them? be on the 21st century question that i asked e earlier. little bit more discussion about what this, more about this topic. >> i think we all kind of hit on, you know, being wary about

an infringement upon individual rights, especially healthcare, it's so personal. >> sarah? >> i agree. >> i agree. kind of, a bit of a closet optimist, and i'm aware of the progress that's been made sort of like that last question. i thought to myself that is not likely to be happening in many places.. we got lots of blind spots and we've got work to do, but we've come a long way. >> well, with that i want to say thank thank you so much, sarah, jim and jill in my teammate nicole for two nights conversation here in u.s. questions, drop in the q&a or chat? i will say thank you again and

closes out. we can dive into one of those, but otherwise as so often have a wonderful rest of your tuesday meeting but againin what to say thankk you to sarah, jim and you and nicole for two nights conversation. we very greatly appreciatee y te are brought to this incredibly important discussion. thank you as well to our participants who engaged with such great questions and took the time to join us this evening. and if you enjoyed this program we hope you'll consider coming back for more. if there by visit the indiana historical history center for dimensions and testimony through january 27 for an interaction journey into holocaust history. the story and legacy of eva court, a holocaust survivor an eyewitness to history who settle indiana and was sounder of the candle museum, the children of auschwitz.

and it effort to locate other survivors.ve also visit eva from auschwitz to indiana also through january 27. more about her who survived auschwitz as a child and experience of dr. joseph hinkley. and are likely to up to be one of the most influential holocaust educators and activist in theld world. come visit us also open now through january 7 him twilight tuesday i was until 8 p.m. next week through december 20. december 20. and all our othererts events, te families and nights out including virtual conversation. and extra shout to nicole cooke, that just got. nicole newly minted authorr through the indian the stork society we are all excited about. so her contribution to tell you all of indiana's stories also includes the history of latino american and -- drop today so

check out our website for their work. so thank you all for joining us tonight, especially thanks to sarah, jim angela my teammate nicole and every single participant. have a great rest of your tuesday. >> thank you. >> good night. >> american history tv saturdays on c-span2 exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 7 p.m. eastern best-selling author david grant yours is booked the wager about the mid-18th century mutiny aboard the british naval ship the wager off the coast of south america and the court-martial that followed. at 10:30 p.m. eastern south dakota republican governor kristi noem on the presidency of common college and the lesson she ceased for contemporary politics. exploring the american story come watch american history tv saturdays on c-span2 and find a

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"their eyes were watching god" by zora neale hurston, and free to choose by milton & rose friedman. watch our ten part series books at shaped america starting monday, september 18 at 9 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. >> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's stories, and on sundays booktv brings you the latest and nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 come some these television companies and more including mediacom. >> at mediacom we believe that whether you live here, or right here, or way out in the middle of anywhere you should have access to fast reliable internet. that's why we're leading the way to take you to 10g.