i did discover an angle most people think of clara barton as the founder of the american red cross. and there is only one and that is the one. >> our guest for the past two hours on in-depth this morning, do appreciate your time, sir. >> thank you. honored. ♪♪ >> weekend on c-span2 are an intellectual piece. every saturday american history tv documents american stories and sunday's tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more including comcast.

♪♪ >> book tv continues them. looking for serious readers. >> we want to introduce you to jennifer, levi's unbuttoned. it took my job but gave my voice. what was your career path? >> i started in 1999 marketing assistant marketing will lowest of theie low but i worked my way up and held that post for eight

years which is really long time. most people average 18, 20 months get fired but i did a good job to open public schools they felt there was no place of the company will for me anymore. >> what is the job asse chief marketing officer? >> who are responsible for the brand image generating revenue, profitable revenue communication that goes into establishing work the products are from the brand, all the advertising and pr and with the stores look like and a lot of stuff.

>> did it live up to its profit through principal? >> i would argue absolutely not. >> were you pushing that? >> i was, i was proud of that. we are all about profit through principal, we can make money and do right by people and offer a great product and treat employees and i believe it not. for a very long time employee principles i was proud of the integrated and they were the first fortune 500 company that could offer benefits. i was proud. it's about extending christ to all employees but i would say the last five to' eight years

exactly how it is, it's a culture that demands obedience to its single view and everyone else is pushed out the door. >> what is that conformist you? >> left-wing orthodoxy. >> what would you consider your politics to be? >> left-wing. i wouldha consider myself left center my whole life. sometimes i voted green party my whole life but i asked a lot of questions during covid, policies furthered by west wing governors and mayors and block thousand school closures. i found the police not completely liberal but they were claiming to pick tech them, it

has harmed children in the poorest most disadvantaged the most. we were supposed to be the champion of the underdog yet we were punishing them while keeping it for ourselves. i really found the hypocrisy and it made me feel the entire platform was a l lie. >> could you explain, or you reporting, tracks to be potentially ceo? mckay was. reporting directly to the ceo which was usual, he became the brand president which meant the

jeans and shirts and designs, merchandise and other stuff but that's the main difference. anything you would interact with as a consumer, it came from me. if you saw an ad or put on a pair of pants, we did the. >> so who is chip? >> the ceo of levi's. he's still the ceo and stated he will probably retire soon. a military guy and procter & gamble over 20 years in the ceo of levi's in 2007, he would come up with the brand at and i think politics were fairly conservative when he he joined levi, he said that to me directly.

he took more and more left-wing stances. i've done so personally as well. forcing that on all employees allowing them to express is not. >> you consider him a friend and mentor? >> no. >> did you at one time? >> not friend but a mentor. >> did you trust him at one time? >> not entirely. no. i had i guess a love-hate -- >> you wrote about him a lot. >> i was very grateful in 2011 when he joined. i've been at the company a lot of years to as a young person and managers have a tendency to see you as them so i had a hard

time breaking through where chip saw me with fresh eyes. he was like she's good and he gave me a lot of opportunity. he also overlooked me for a lot of opportunities which i didn't include in the book. because exploring but i was talked over for several jobss so i didn't really trust him but i do believe he thought i was good at what i do. >> why did you not get the ceo jobas in a nutshell? >> i was outspoken about covid restrictionsoc. >> you meet on social media? >> not just socialye media, yes but i also wrote off as and got schools and playgrounds open. i wasn't just a keyboard

warrior, i was active in my community and is a responsibility to stay and i wai participating in the. >> did you enjoy your time at levi's? >> i did until the last few years. the last fewdi years were very difficult. i spent over two decades, i had a lot of friends. you go to baby showers, funerals, these are people you believe are your friends. >> in the subtitle of your book you talk about woke mop, i will to quote, woke capitalism seeks to build consumer loyalty social justice stances rather than what the company makes themselves. woke capitalism tries to convince them that they are in business to do good and make the world a better place. woke capitalism seeks to brainwash the world and corporations care about employees even when they lay

them off at the same time as they deliver unimaginable wealth to shareholders and executives through dividends and stock pricingt. >> sounds about right. that's my issue, it's a lie. reputation laundering. inside the board room and executive conference room. if we take the stand and will align with their values, they will like us more and buy more stuff what they say. i was in that room for ten years, that's what they say. the younger employees believe in it. they are true believers. most of them, in a cynical way in virtue, alo consumers

although it backfires and some ways. i will give you one example i put in the book., we laid out 15% of the workforce and said the headline. at the same s time $43 million. that is not empathy, empathy would be for people's jobs. that was the main response. >> an autobiography, you talk about your early life and what you're doing before levi. where did you spring from? >> i wrote my first book, another whistleblower account as well, from the time i was sick

until i was 19 until i didn't like levi's, cruel and abusive culture, there is sexual abuse rampant in that was exposed. the gymnastics for 30 years. >> you are the nationall champion. >> correct. >> how much pain were you in? >> a lot of pain. i won the autumn broken ankle. >> was a typical forgiveness to perform and that type of shape? >> yes. >> what does that do to your as he grew into adulthood? >> it's very crushing to live in that much pain is very difficult. to be told there's nothing wrong and you are just being a wimp and you are a lazy piece of garbage and doctors telling you there's nothing wrong because they are influenced by the coaches, it will make you crazy and i started to unravel i think

emotionally and physically, i couldn't do this for, i lost the ability to do it because i was mentally unraveling. starving ourselves to death, anorexia is common in sports and it was forced by our coaches meaning you need to please through pounds by tomorrow, we don't care how you do it, they literally would say that. my ankle broken, i was deteriorating by the day and i walked away in a few months before 1988. >> simone biles. >> she did it during the competition, i did it before, it was before not during. >> was the reaction when you walked away? >> i wasn't in 1987 so two years prior.

i was notch a national champion embraced by the community. this is very difficult and she didn't deserve it, she's the worst national champion we've ever had but conflicted relationship, and the k k 17-year-old kid who never expected this to happen, whether or not i was the best doesn't matter, it's a competition, it's who's best that they and they tore me down. i should mention though, i had broken my the mayor only nine months earlier so everybody fell down for the count. >> how much of your entity from four to 17 or 19 disruptive? >> all of it. i didn't have an identity outside of sports and that's what's so difficult about leaving, regular person, it's

very difficult. >> interacting regularly with people was a new thing. >> i traveled around the world and own my own and i was completely immature and i have never been on a date and i was on a mission and i got a little rebellious. >> the gymnastics fellowship? >> i wanted to get in on my own merit. >> and where did you go? >> 1992, upon graduation, the best place i ever lived in my whole life, i loved it so much. it was home for anyone who felt like a weirdo and you could be

as weird as you wanted to be and i wanted to be weird, i had been so obedient as a child, i wanted to push the boundaries a little bit so i loved it but that's not true anymore. i loved san francisco so my children could attend school that is not what it was. >> who took a series of jobs made no money. >> that's what you do when you'reyo young. we worked on jobs, it was fun and eventually landed in advertising agency in 94 and found myself eventually on the levi's account.

>> at what time did yourr caree, were you making the kind of money a cmo or group president would be making? >> 2013, i was very bad at advocating fors myself. i remember when i became cmo somebody accidentally sent me a spreadsheet with everyone salary and i was the lowest paid person like what? i'm the highest performer but i was not good at the. >> you to tell the story about meeting with the hr and take the good job. >> right and i agreed to that.

>> so at what time did you start to become known as the troublemaker? >> that's a nice place to put it. i think the railway would have been not only good but qanon conspiracy purist is what ime kd of became known as. i started, i was pretty outspoken from the start like march 2020 i questioned. i didn't get arn call until september of 2020. i knew it was controversy and my friends are like what are you doing? but nobody called so maybe they just didn't notice. i was wrong. i got the first call in september 2020, mike here head of corporate communications saying people are noticing and they don't like it and i said

so? your kids are in school, right? he said yeah. the private schools were open. >> so kids were going to private. public schools, your kids were still at home. >> yes mind and more importantly, 60% of low income. my kids were wealthier than most and i was concerned about the children. >> at that level is attempting to go private route? >> i was never interested in in. i feel we are part of the city in the community and i don't want to be cordoned off from it and raising of ten, your children off from their neighbors.

we are not better than the people we live around. >> back to levi's unbuttoned, this is your inner voice talking to yourself when you wrote this. we care about profits to principal place and you can post about blm and lgbtq and other letters but when the rubber hits the road, it's about desperate to maintain right over easy or wrong, we really care. you strike down any of you from the orthodox. the san francisco bubble, because yes, you are about party, not principle. appealing to woke to tell jeans because they seem close to you and they might buy more and spend more in midwestern unstylish patriots.

that's the quiet parts that out loud.t >> i can see that now. >> is it refreshing? to be able to say things like this? >> obviously i said what i thought before but i look back and i am proud of how i contorted myself. any reasonable person thinks they are personally reasonable and i wanted to make that clear. i would challenge anyone to challenge anything i said. i'm restrained, never rude and most people now look at the things i was posting and say i don't get what was wrong with that. exactly. but i am more free now and it is

framing and liberating. i've also been called every name you can be called, i'm not afraid with the call me, i laugh at it now. >> who remembers the woke mob you referred t to? >> sthere are various cohorts, young employees which is small but punitive minority school conspiracy theorists who will will who already president and it prepared me after i wrote

basically says you a bus, not one of them and people think you are race is missing your mommy and you need to prove you are not. >> come in? it's very convoluted like i. we want they were populated by black and brown children will. >> where does qanon fall? like i don't understand that with i'm not sure it is real.

>> why did you will look at nine profile, and it was very low. >> another quote from the book. not far from the market. when we over pay more for in my boat, not my sneakers or soft drink of choice. can you walk through the crowd and identify people's political affiliation i what they are wearing?

>> wearing of swooshes, nike. rainbow would be pride month. there brands that express, i can't think of apparel brands. that's why i have no job. >> are you financially secureu because of your past employment? it's none of my business but -- >> yes but i can't not work for the rest of my life, i'm not that kind of financially secure. i'm in no danger of my children going hungry. >> you left the city after all this happened, correct? >> i did. i left in the midst because in the spring of 2021, schools showed no sign of opening, i had a kindergartner who never stepped foot in the classroom. my kindergartner never been in

the classroom and first year of school i didn't wanted to be a disaster, i wanted him to have a good feeling about also we moved to denver and offices for closed so my son could go to school in person. >> why denver? >> i wasn't prepared to move, i just wasn't ready. i still had some in person meetings in colorado, there's a bit of a libertarian free. it's very blue but they are welcoming to all viewpoints. i've never felt afraid to raise anything and i would have an open and honest conversation with my neighbor.

he called him the democratic libertarian so i like that the more you talk toto anyone from levi anymore? or were you shunned? >> i was shot. i talked to a few people who have left who have reached out. >> has anyone said sorry? >> no. >> do you think you deserve a sorry? >> to do what i'm not waiting for one to i mark would you say you're able to write if you right here? >> i took no, i was offered an arm you need to go now the employees, there's no room for you and the company and that willll offer and he said that tt

but i didn't want to sign an agreement for thene book not for the money but it was important to tell the story. the fact is, if i relate it, we've been able to have an open and honest conversation about kids in schools and lockdowns, it would be a different decision and open conversation mom. it was very. >> the fact that you were demonized rather than having an honest conversation regardless of the outcome, that's what drives you in a sense. >> in this together sense, i think it would be a societywide competition and epidemiologists

and government led talking points, there were people, renowned doctors pushing back and we were permitted, i think we would reach a different and and our children in california would not have been a school. not because the law firm and we still thoseub discussions. >> you were demonized for what he had to say, correct? >> that's a question for a charge on the link anybody was asking the ceo but his wife probably wasn't but nobody was concerned he wasn't making the

known on social media. and he was a trump order but what if he was? that the world we want to live in? >> did you know any? in the headquarters are definitely not.

in their work no republicans but we had distribution centers and i am very certain there were a lot of folks and preparations to move beyond and just about every large corporation in america and

it accelerated. and it was that division and hundreds of people, the power and influence, i have no issue with inclusion, if it were inclusive, why does it matter what i say? and was disproportionately black and brown. they are being tackled and fired in 2020, but it's perceived as a witchhunt going on could have

stood this if you have been in gymnastics and in the fire, called in for 12, 15 years with the pressure on you? >> it's a good question. i don't think having competed in gymnastics is when i wrote my first book, there was blowback and i was vilified and dragged across the internet and it to ten years and they said it was right. and that people are going to catch them. i believe that is true.

>> you bring up hypocritical behavior by elite executives especially when it comes to schools. >> yes. and we couldn't admit it was so bad, we will have to stand by.

there was hypocrisy going to their vacation home and doing what they wanted and it was not true,fl there flying to europe d hawaii but it wasn't the case for them but it was so uniform what people believe, that's what this was about. you like the most virtuous person in the world. they feel virtuous for doing nothing. >> i would push back,. >> what is the danger? >> the keyboard where, people

who tried to cancel people online and think they are doing gooded work and trying to keep people down. i get accused because my twitter presence is but i was doing all these other things attending every school board meeting and work on the school board recall and lead rallies so i was a real life warrior, to. >> do you still tweet? >> i do to mike what do you tweet about? life? t covid? >> i don't really have room for myself anymore so i guess whatever i want.al i definitely talk about the

impact of children, i don't want anybody to forget about this. this cannot happen again. censorship and other liberalism's happening right now, anything that interests me. >> anything you did during this period? >> no i. i think i did the right thing and i was true to myself. i tried to be grateful but have the freedom to say anything i want. i'm not hurt by the names they call me now so i don't regret any of it. >> who's chris and what happened? >> my brother.

we used to be close, so i thought. we did notot agree on covered policy. i was a passionate anti- lock down. the first year we talked about the disagreement but we haven't spoken in several years, two or three years. his wife is a doctor and what i say is dangerously critical to doctors. the doctors in publicc health took it to be dangerous and violation. >> levi's and buttons. i, unlike some, have no issue with rich people. some people, very few make a lot of money, what i do have an

issue with his rich people masquerading as social justice warriors and employ advocates laying off 15% of the workforce the same time they had tens of billions of dollars to their bank accounts and can't have it both ways. >> i don't like hypocrites. i'm not a hypocrite, i stand by my word. >> what is this part? >> i don't know, something they say online. i couldn't authentically believe in the things i'm saying. of course i believe in them, why would i give up everything? i gave up not just the job i had but the future job of ceo would have been an incredible honor

and the money is insane. i gave it up so i could use my voice. >> levi's unbuttoned is the name of the book, woke mob took my job but gave me my voice. ♪♪ ...

in the past 25 years, book tv has been on the air over 1300 weekends, covering 13,000 authors covering this event. >> i thought it might be fun to write a simple little story. we had to work the cattle and conduct the roundups and do the work at the ranch you had to do

quite a bit of it on horseback. in the early days we did not have motor vehicles that want themselves to much ranch work. four-wheel-drive vehicles came after world war ii. they would get worn down. it was too much work. my favorite and my childhood was a horse named chico. those of you who speak spanish no means small. he was a beautifully formed horse. just smaller. i did not have to find a big rock. i could get on from the ground.

every horse has a distinct personality, of course. very pleasant and friendly. chico would just stop and wait for me to get back on. chico is remarkable and wonderful way, to. a unique instinct of how to turn a cow and go after. it was quite impressive. he liked it a lot. it was close to 30 years. getting enough work in the lifetime.

he has an amazing retirement. somehow he made france, we had deer on the ranch. i know you've seen plenty of those in arizona. this dear had somehow strayed from his deer herd. he made friends with chico. that went on for several years. chico's next best friends turned out to be an old boxer dog we had on the ranch. the boxer dog attached himself to chico. day after day.

they came back to the ranch alone. sure enough, chico had passed on i remember him with such pleasure and the fun i had writing that i thought it would be fun to give him a little bit of a book. that is what i tried to do. >> book tv programming available online. just visit to watchful programs on your favorite authors. >> you are watching book tv every weekend. book tv, television for serious readers. >> now on book tvs author interview program u.s. court of appeals discusses the philosophy of supreme court justice clarence