in the past week alone. so some democrats feel like he's in a weaker position and now is not the time for biden to meet with mccarthy. other democrats would tell you atthat biden and mccarthy already met earlier this year. they had a budget cap deal, and at the time people thought that would make the appropriations process easier. >> host: watching it all on capitol hill is aris foley. you can poll her on twitter as she follows this debate over government funding@aris foley, f-o-l-l-e-y. thank you so much for your time this morning. >> guest: thanks for having me. >> host: the federal employees that would be impacted, edward kellypl is the national presidet of the american federation of government employeeses. mr. kelly, sir, how many federal workers do you represent? >> guest: we represent about 750,000, that's federal and d.c. government workers. >> host: and of those 750,000, how many would be fur if

allowinged during a government shutdown? >> guest: -- fur furloughs? >> guest: to be honest with you, that's a question that is unknown at this time. the last shutdown there was about 800,000 federal workers furloughed -- i'm sorry, that was affected. half of hem were furloughed, half of them went to work and, you know, just to get paid. >> host: and we're four days away from a shutdown. do employees know, do federal employees know whether they would be furloughed or considered essential employees, or are those plans still being put together? >> guest: well, those plans in some cases are still being i put together. some cases they know, and they're making preparations for what could happen. >> host: what are you telling your union members who expect to be fur houghed? how should they be planning for this? >> guest: well, first of all, i'm remaining hopeful. i'm telling them to continue to call congress and ask them to not allow a shutdown to occur.

certainly, i'm telling them to prepare, you know, in the event that a shutdown occurs, prepare financially as best you can. as we know, you know, the it's hard for working america to prepare to not have a paycheck. but the best that you can, you know, try to prepare, put away money as you can. you know, we are trying to make sure that we provide information and resources for employees that might be affected as we did on the last shutdown. >> host: we had a caller in our first segment of "the washington journal" today talking about the shutting down and hen the reopening process -- and then the reopening process. at whatever point it's reopened saying it's so disruptive, there's so much waste in that process. these shutdown plans, can you just talk through how it's affecting your workers and what they're telling you? >> guest: well, you know, first of all, it is a psychological effect on our workers, okay?

becausing, you know, or they're continuing to have to deal with this issueue that they deal with year after a year. and it has a psychologicalfect. psychological effect. it is confusing to them to have to deal with the fact that they could be shut down, you know, for no apparent reason. so that would be my answer. it's a psychological effect on them. >> host: a shutdown is about a lot of things, and this one whether it's the border security or other issues, but one of the issues is about the size of the federal government. the federal government is too big, too bloated right now? >> guest: oh, not at all. i think that the federal government's understaffed as we speak. and, you know, they need to consider how do we staff the federal government so that the american people can receive the services that it deserves. >> host: what's anse example of the federal government being with understaffed? in what area in. >> guest: well, i'm thinking particularly about the social security administration right now. they are very much understaff

thed. and, you know -- understaffed. a lot of times claims are not processed adequately because of the fact that they are not staffed adequately. >> host: everett kelly is the national president of the american federation of government employees, afge, as it's known. he's with us until the top of the hour this morning. if you want to join the conversation, democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002, and a special line for federal workers, keeping that that line open in this segment, 202-748-8003. go ahead and. start calling in now. folks -- focusing back on the federal workers, mr. kelly. if, whether you're an essential employee or a furloughed employee, youur wouldn't be receiving a paycheck during the shutdown, but you could expect to receive back pay after the government reopens. is that correct?

you'd be made whole after a shutdown? >> guest: well, you know, that's correct. you would receive back pay eventually. however, i don't think if -- i don't know if employeeses will ever be with made whole in the event a shutdown occurs because, number one, as i've said over and over and over again, federal employees are no different can than the rest of america. andde 60% of americans live, working america live from paycheck to paycheck. and the people that i represent, it's no different. and sond missing one paycheck ss you back. i mean, you know, you've got to figure out how am i going to feed my family, how am i even going to get to work, because it costs to go back and forth to work. and then when your back pay finally arrives, you know, it is one lump sum. that puts you in a different tax bracket. so i don't know if you'll ever be made whole. >> host: what would you say to the folks who question why somebody who wouldn't be working during a shutdown, why should they get back pay?

>> guest: well, you know, ultimately they've been locked out of the job not because they don't want to go to work, but they've been locked out of their job. i encourage congress to take a look at what happened with the senate, you know? they gave the congress a way out here, and i think that, you know, that's what we should be asking congress to do, is make sure that they don't get locked out of a job and don't have to deal with that situation. >> host: we talked about that in the first segment of "washington journal" this morning, about that short-term funding bill to keep the government open for several more weeks, a bipartisan measure moved by the senate yesterday. we'll see what happens with it in the house, but we're talking we've relate kelly this morning of the american federation of government employeeses. we do have that special line for federal employees. michael's on that line first out of suitland, maryland. michael, good morning. >> caller: hey, good morning. can can you hear me in. >> host: yes, sir.

>> caller: yes. so i just wanted to bring some light to the shutdown, a point that i didn't know that affected us, and both of my kids, they go to daycare on federal bases, on two bases that are close by. and essentially, if the government shuts down, we still have to pay for childcare, but the kids are home with us because at the base everybody's furloughed. so i don't know if other people are experiencing that, i'm sure people, you know, send their kids to these federal, you know, daycares have to still pay for this, this -- and it's about $900 for my daughter and about, that would be about $1500 for my, for my son. so i just wanted to bring light to that. >> host: mr. kelly. >> guest: yes. you know, and that's the point. michael, thank you for calling. the point is there's so many areas that the shutdown that the average person is just not aware of. so thank you for bringing that

to the attention of the american public because they will be affected many so many ways. >> host: here in washington, d.c., this is mary, line for democrats. mary, good morning. >> caller: good morning. goodod morning. >> host: go ahead. what's your question or comment for mr. kelly? >> caller: mr. kelly, i'm a retired federal worker, and i know that social security won't be impacted, but will retired federal workers, will we get paid? >> guest: well, you know, you will get your paycheck as a retiree. that's not going to be an issue. social security itself will be affected. the working, work force of social security will be affected, but you will get paid. now, in the event that, you know, if there's an issue with your paycheck, you know, i don't know how you would address that. i think that's something that we have to be concerned about.

or if there is a new claim many social security, you know, that's something we e need to be concerned about. >> host: i just want to kill into that a a little -- to dig into that a little bit more. my understanding that social security checks would still go out, it's just that processing new claims, and that happens everyit day at the social secury administration, that's what would not happen during the shutdown, correct? >> guest: absolutely, that's correct. >> host: jack's next out of wisconsin, republican. good morning. >> caller: yeah. my question was on the back pay, okay? the federal employees make all their money back at a given time, correct? >> guest: they get paid at some point, yes. but, you know, in the process of recouping if from loans or what have you because they didn't get paid on time, i mean, just imagine -- and this is what i ask everybody to do -- imagine payday, right in payday shows up, it comes around and you

expect a paycheck, but you don't get that paycheck. you still have bills, you still have childcare, you still have, you know, all these things. so, you know, getting paid at some point doesn't make a person whole. and then on top of that, you know, a person living from paycheck to paycheck, you know, and all of a sudden you get paid maybe threeer weeks, maybe -- i don't know how long it would last, but whatever it is, you get paid in a lump sum. that puts you in a different tax bracket. so the federal employees will never be made whole in a situation like that. >> host: jack, did you have a question?ho >> caller: but then instead of doing it all in lump sum, can't they just give you three paychecks, you know, or it's a week or a few days, you know? >> guest: but that's not the process. it would be nice, but that's not the process. >> caller: i'm sorry, the federal government makes the process. so why don't they make the process where it's fair to the

people that aren't working? >> guest: if we could get congress to do things to spare people from not working, we would be doing a mighty good job. do something good for the people that's not working. >> host: federal employee line, this is david. pensacola, florida. david, good morning. what agency do you work at? >> caller: well, i'm retired, and i was with the u.s. department of justice. >> host: what's your question or comment for mr. kelly? >> caller: well, the comment, you know, i hate to -- i'm not going to engage in an ad hominem attack, but i want to say this man is an embarrassment to all federal employees. first of all, i want to apologize to the american taxpayer who's required to save for a raney day. -- rainy day. if the government shut down, i was still required to work, and i saved up for a rainy day. government employees are very well compensated. this man makes it sound like they're basically in a form of slavery, and that's just not true. this guy is an embarrassment. but the one thing i want to point out, i'm -- he talks about

being made whole. every time the government is shut down, it's not shut down for 6 months to a year, at the most it's shut down for a month or so and, again, federal employees are well company sainted. if they know how to save like the private sector is required to save and scrimp, then they should have money for the rainy day. if you're being pushed in a different tax bracket, you're obviously beingvi impacted -- pr people don't have to worry about tax brackets. and another thing, and i call about this a long time ago, but during the last government shutdown, and it was on c-span, i wish i could remember, there was a congressman who was giving anecdotal evidence about a, not an airline worker, an air traffic controller. and he said on the floor of congress that this guy had to sell blood in order to make enough gas money to get his job. is that someone that you think is competent enough to handle air traffic? i don't think so. but it's these anecdotal things

that just embarrass -- so so, again, i want to -- >> host: david, got your. point. let me give mr. kelly a chance to respond. >> guest: well, thank you for your comment. however, i think there is a lot of misguided people in the world that don't understand that people are people, and everybody is not psalm. it -- the same. it has nothing to do with slavery, it has to do with a person's responsibility. now, what people don't realize is that the last shutdown, you know, this economy was hit by $11 billion, you know? and when you to don't have $5 billion going out into the economy, it affects everyone, you know? so i'm i sorry you feel that wa, but, youfe know, it's your opinion. and it's your right to have that opinion, i just think there are misguided thoughts this. >> host: just about 10re minutes left we've relate kelly, the national president of the -- with everett kelly. if you'rere watching c-span,

202-748-8000 for democrats, 748-8001 for republicans. independents, 202-748-8002. and you're a federal employee, a special line for you, 202-748-8003. as folks continue to call in, mr. kelly, a non-shutdown related question in the form of a autoworkers' strike. i want ton get your thoughts on president bidenen joining those united autoworkers on the picket line yesterday in what's being called an unprecedented visit to a picket if line by a president. >> guest: well, you know, i think that was monumental. i applaud if the president for making such a statement that i stand with america's work force. ica think that it has a lot of bearing on where a work force wouldbe go moving forward. iwo think that it will encourage people to understand, you know, thee necessity of being a part f

the labor force. and to have a union to represent you to insure that you are treated with fairness, dignity and respect on the job. >> host: i want your opinion about the column in today's "usa today," biden is scrambling to outunion trump, saying that it was days before biden announced his trip to the picket line that former president trump said that he was going to detroit to talk to some of the same union members, making that trip tonight, skipping that second republican debate to make that trip. >> guest: okay, i didn't quite understand your question, i'm sorry. >> host: do you think in terms of outunioning trump, who is more pro-union, joe biden or donald trump? [laughter] >> guest: you know, i'm going to try to answer this with a good face, but trump did not do anything to assist unions, in my opinion. i think that, bar none, this president has been a tremendous

help and assistance to the unions. i need to just say that, you know, under the trump administration he put forth some executivee orders that took away the powers, you know, of union, especially my union. and the third day on the job this president revoked those executive orders and gave us the power to organize, power to meet with our members and power to represent our members back. and this was taken away by the former president. >> host: back to the phone lines, back to that line for federal workers. this is clayton in marion, indiana. good morning. >> caller: good morning. sorry, i heard about -- [inaudible] local 1020, v.a. i have to correct the guy that called a few minutes ago. i live paycheck to paycheck. i'm among one of the lowest paid

employees, so i didn't exactly save moneyxp like he expects us to. and, yes, reagan did make it to where we can't go on strike, but if we could go on strike, we could prevent this whole government shutdown 'cuz then the government would be afraid of us again. is there a reason why our union has never done anything to be able to strike again? >> guest: well, thank you for your comments, and i appreciate you, i appreciate the work that you do every single day. a lot of people don't realize that as a federal employee you're not paid, you know, a bunch of money. matter of fact, you know, some of our people that represent make about $34,000 a year on an average. and and, you know, imagine living in a metropolitan city where you've got to pay for transit to get back and forth to work, you know, and then housing, your daycare and all thosehe types of things. it becomes important to save money, so i agree with you, brother, and i appreciate you. i appreciate what you do every single day. andy i will continue to stand

here and represent you. however, as you know, we take an oath as a federal employee and and we know we can't strike, and we don't even talk strike. we try to make sure that we get the benefits that our members need through congress, and that's what we're doing here today. we're calling on congress to do the right thing. take a, you know, take a look at what the senate did in a bipartisan way, you know? they came up with a way to keep the government open through november the 17th. i think that congress should look at ways to do that. and also keep the federal employees off the chopping block every single year. that's the issue here. you know, we can play it any way we want to play it, but the issue here, federal employees should not be used as political pawns and be put in this political theater, you know, because they want to do their job. it's congress that's locking us out of our job. it's not that we don't want to do it, it's not that we want to work without getting paid and

create all these other issues. that's not the issue. the issue is should federal employees be be allowed to go to their job and do their job and service the american people, you know? because it's the what the american people need and deserve. that's the questionha here. >> host: just to follow up quickly, when you say we know we can't strike, just to make that clear, is that a union bylaw? is that a federal law or just something you believe that federal employees shouldn't do? >> guest: that's a federalpl la. and we will abide by that. we won't even talk about striking, you know? we get it, you know? but we do expect congress to do their job. >> host: so george in bellevue, washington. line for democrats, you're next. you're on with everett kelly. >> caller: hi, yes. you're right about the not being made whole. i mean, might be when has to go a payday loan is going to pay an exorbitant amount of interest to try to make ends meet while they're not being paid. >> guest: thank you, george. and i appreciate your comments. and we will continue to try and

get the congress to understand that issue. >> host: on payday loans, could federal employees apply for unemployment benefits while they are furloughed if they are furloughed many a shutdown? and what happened to those benefits once they're made wholesome. >> guest: no, and i don't think that we would be able to apply for those benefits, no. >> host: new jersey, this is sharon, an independent. good morning. >> caller: good morning, america. i just want to state some facts. we bring in $5 trillion a year, we spend $7 trillion a year. the last administration gave a permanent tax cut of $2 trillion a year toe the american oligarh billionaires. now we're playing games in the back room, so the politicians get paid off because we don't hear what's going on by the american billionaires that they don't have to pay their fair

share. and it hurt our country doing it, and they don't care about the working force. so i believe that they should stand up. the last time we had a zero balance budget deficit, they paid 35%. now they're paying 0. that's not fair. biden's right, they should pay their fair share, and the american people should wake up and stop being punched mt. face by -- in the face by these american billionaires that that fly to space and do whatever they want to do by hurting the american people. and that's all i have to say. and ifve i'm wrong, somebody std up and say i'm wrong, but i'm not wrong are. thank you. >> host: mr. kelly, any thoughts? >> guest: no. i think i can totally agree with that sister. >> host: another federal employee, pau morning. >> caller: good morning. how are you guys? i want to -- i'm an ex-federal employee, retired postal worker, anday. the federal employees will yet

compensated -- get compensated s. and whoever doesn't have any extra funds has bigger problems than this shutdown. i would be required to work, and that's fine. the economy, the the hurting of the economy, who you should have there is the hot dog person who works at the federal building or the restaurants who don't get people to come. those are the people that are going to be huring. those people ain't going to be compensated. is so you've to got to wrong person here and whoever, like i said, whoever doesn't have any extra savings, they've got more problems. they've got to look at themselves and trygo to save soe money for rainy days. and d any principal employee cod save something -- federal employee could save something. >> host: mr. kelly. >> guest: again, i appreciate the sentiment from the brother. however, i think, again, that the point is being missed, okay? these employees are not saying i don't want to go to work. they're being tolday we're not going to allow you to go to work.

and, you know, you're not going to get paid, you know? that's the issue that i think people need to understand. >> host: one last call. tonya's been waiting out of seattle, line for republicans. tonya, go ahead. >> caller: hi, good morning. yeah. your guest, mr. kelly, he's stated about the employees are not refusing to go in to workplace, the government workplace. well, i'd like to ask him why is it that the government is not allowing i.c.e. to do n their js down on the border? and, you.c know, i want to say that i encourage the government shutdown. shut this shindig down. in other words, shut the party down. you know, shut the party, you know, with this wild spending out of control, the taxpayers' dollars that are -- the social security is not going to american people. i mean, it's -- they're getting, we're getting some of the

dollars, but the social security office, that's all that's there are foreign nationals that's trying, that's on the bus or or receiving social security. and i'm, frankly, with the -- >> host: tonya, running horse on time, and i want to give mr. kelly a chance to respond. give you the final minute and a half, sir. >> guest: first of all, tonya, thank you for your comments. however, again, i think that you're with incorrect -- you're incorrect. the i.c.e., you know, we expect them to do their job. they are doing their job on the border. but now there would be more people affected than, more agenciese affected than just te social security. you have veterans that go to war, right? and they give their lives, right, and they come back and we're in a shutdown, and they can't be serviced, you know? that's not right. the american people don't expect that, and the restaurants

don't -- veterans don't deserve that. i'm a veteran myself. andel i expect if i want to process a claim because i have some disabilities or what have you, that the veterans administration should be there and prepared to take care of me. not just that. you're talking about our food safety, you're talking about our airfo quality. all of these types of things that will be affected in the event of a shutdown. no. we are americans, and we expect america to be the best country in the world. and you don't do it by not funding your country. >> host: everett kelly is the national president of the american federation of government employees, afge.org if you want to find them online. appreciate the time this morning, sir. thanks so much. ♪ >> a healthy democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like this where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed. our republic thrives. get informed straight from the if source on