plus and q and a. listen to c-span bookshelf podcast feed today. you can probably c-span and all of our podcast on the frequency fruitc-span now mobile video apr wherever you get your podcast. and on our website c-span.org/podcast. ♪ weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's story. on sundays book tv brings the latest nonfiction boo and authors. fending for cspan2 comes from these television companies and more including spark light. >> the greatest town on earth is the place you call home. at spark light it is our home to an right now we are all facing our greatest challenge. that is space bar client is working around the clock to keep you connected paired we are doing our part so it's a little easier to do yours.

spark light along with these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> now on book tv late one to introduce you to jennifer his book is called levi's unbuttoned. the local mob took my job but forgave you my voice. jennifer, what was your career path at levi? >> slow and steady but almost all the weights the top i started 1980 i am marketing assistant entrynt level lowest f the low but work my way up to chief marketing officer by 2013. of that post for eight years which is a really long time most people averaged 18 -- 28 months they get fired. but i. did a good job but help and helpthe company go public. became the brand president but then i was very outspoken about the need to open public schools during covid and affect to your conflict internally i was told there is no place for me the company anymore.

>> host: what is the job of the chief marketing officer? >> let see how can i put this into words for you are responsible for the brand's image for your responsible for generating demand revenue, profitable revenue ideally. really all of the communication that goes into establishing what the brand stands for what the product stands for, all of that. all of the advertising. the pr. and the tactical search market with the website looks like, with the stores look like a lot of stuff. still it is and was levi's a good corporate citizen? does it live up to its profits through principles model? >> no i would argue absently not. see what we are part of play should not? i was i was really proud of n that. i believed in that that's a mantra forma people who do not know the company often sites we are all about profit to prince

but weve believe i'm sick we lie us to work there. we could make money do right by people we can offer them a great product that makes their lives but we can treat employees fairly pay workers failed fairly. fail fairly. i believe in that. for a very long time for their employee principles i was proud of the integrated factories in the south before the law required it.e they were the first fortune 500 company to offer same-sex partner benefits. this is about extending rights to all employees. in the last five -- eight years that is not really how it is. it's really about conformist culture that demands obedience through a single point of view. everyone else is either smiling or pushed out the door. >> host: what is the conformist point of view? >> it is left wing orthodoxy simply put.

speech at what would you haveo considered your politics to be when you were working? >> left wing. i would have considered my sole left of left to center my whole life. i wrote a democratic sometimes voted green party my whole life. asked a lot of questions during covid about the policies that were primarily furthered by left-wing governors and mayors. policies around lockdowns and school closures. i found these polities to be not only completely illiberal but harmful to the people they were claiming tohe protect which is true, this is what we have learned. these did harm children in the most disadvantaged children the most. to my mind was obvious as well. what it meant to be a democrat to me. we were supposed to be the champions of the underdog and yet we were punishing them while

keeping spoils for ourselves send our own kids, not mine, to. private schools. i really found that hypocrisy intolerable and harmful. it made me feel the entire dogma platform was a lie. do it as levi's brand president you could explain exactly what that is? are you reporting directly to the ceo? were you tracked to be potentially ceo? >> i was. amnesty m know i was which is sort of unusual. i became the brand president which means that went from not just owning all the marketing communication but all the products the genes, the shirts, the design team reported to be at merchandising which isth the business side of product and a bunch of other stuff but that's the main difference. anything you interact with as a levi's consumer that came from me and my team. you saw an ad you put on a pair of pants we did that.

it is chip berg that remaining today? lexi is the ceo he has stated he will probably retire soon i think he is about 65. military guy in his youth, worked at procter & gamble for over 20 years and then moved over to become the ceo of levi's in 2011. he called himself a brand guy. i think his politics were fairly conservative when he joined levi's he said that to me directly. but moving to san francisco open his eyes. he took more and more left-wing stances i am fine anybody wants to do that personally i have done so as well. forcing that on all of your employees disallowing them to express any different view from that is not profits to principals. principles. what do you consider chip berg a

friend and mentor? >> no. >> stew would dig at one time? >> not a friend but a mentor. >> host: did you trust him at one time? >> guest: not entirely. no. i mean, i guess i had a love/hate no one's asked me this before but it's a good question. to what you write about him a lot that's why i'm asking. >> guest: i was very grateful to chip in 2011 when he joined britt i've been at the company for 11 or 12 years at that point i started as a very young person your managers have a tendency to see you as you were then so i had a hard time breaking through a chip senate with fresh eyes i don't know what i was at the time. e'vp of something he said she is good and gave me a lot of opportunities. he also overlooked me for a lot of opportunities i deserve some ofof which i did not include in the book it's a boring is to inside base.

i was passed over for several jobs he promised me. do believe he thought is really good at what i did. effects why did you not get the l,ceo job in a nutshell? >> i was outspoken about covid restrictions. suet n and you say outspoken social media? >> guest: yes social media but he also wrote up beds, attended school board means, lead rallies to get school grounds open i was notn a keyboard warrior i was active in my community. i take my >> responsibility seriously so i wasas participatg in that process. suet did you enjoy your time at levi's? >> guest: i did until the last two years. the last two years were very difficult. you have to understand i spent over two decades i had a lot of friends you spend that long at a

place you go to baby showers, weddings, funerals these are people you believe are your friends and not a single person stood by me. >> jennifer and the subtitle of your book youou talk about the local mob i want the quote from levi's unbuttons, woke capitalism seeks to build consumer loyalty through social justice stances rather than what the company makes themselves. woke capitalism tries to convince buyers companies arm business to do good and make the world a better place not make money. woke capitalism seeks to brainwash the world with the message corporations care about employees even when they lay them off at the same time as they are delivering on immeasurable wealth to shareholders and e executives through dividends and stock price increases. >> sounds about right. yes. that is my issue it's not that it's a lie it's reputation laundering.

what stated inside the boardrooms in executive ooconference rooms as something akin to if we take this stance in line with their values the value being the consumer or the perceived consumer they would like us more and buy more stuff. that's what they say i was in that room for 10 years. that is what they say. the younger employees believe in it. they areso true believers. some of the executives believe in most of them it's a cynical way to wrap themselves in virtue, appeal to consumers they think although we see that backfiring to some extent. but keep all the money for themselves are so much hypocrisy in it i will give you one example which i cite in the book. under the cover of covid levi's laid off 15% of the corporate workforce. we said we did with empathy is what the headlines read. at that same time in the same

time frame cashed up $43 million in stocks that is not empathy for the common worker. empathy would have been fighting to keep the jobs. fighting to open the store so they can keep working. that would've been the empathetic response. stu and this is a bit of an autobiography you talk about your early life and what you were doing before levi's. where did you spring from so to speak question request as elitee gymnast as a child i wrote my first book called chalked up about experience which was another little bit of that whistleblower account as well. i shake from the time oh six until his 19 loved it it's a pretty cruel and abusive culture is exposed by larry nast of the team doctor for usa gymnastics. >> you are that national champion in 1986, correct? >> it is correct but for quick

habits paid were youat in? >> a lot of pain i one that on a broken ankle my ankle was broken that night. >> was that typical forye gymna? >> gap. >> what did that do to you as you grew into adulthood? >> is pretty soul crushing to lippmann that much physicaln pn is very, very difficult. to be told at the same time there's nothing wrong or being a wimp and a lazy piece of garbage to have doctors tell you there's nothing wrong there being influenced by the coaches. it will make you a little crazy. i started to unravel i think emotionally, physically. i could not do the sport at the end i lost inability to do it i was mentally unraveling. we were also starving ourselves to death for anorexia is very common in this portion. it was enforced forcefully by our coaches meeting you need to lose 3 pounds by tomorrow i don't care how you do it.

these were literally said to us. i was starving, my ankle was broken, i was deteriorated by the day i end up walking with the sport a few months before the olympic trials in 1988. stu and like simone biles in tokyo? >> i did it before not during the. >> what was the reaction when you walked away? a defendant national champion? >> i was not in 1987 so two years prior. i was not a national champion that was really embraced by the community. even the net i what is very difficult member said she didn't deserve it she is the worst national champion we've ever had i had a very conflicted relationship and a 17-year-old kid who never expected this to happen. i was the best on that day whether or not i was the best that you're doesn't matter it's a competition it's who's best

that day. and they tore me down. i should mention though, note and expect me too even be competition i'd broken my femur and i'm out for the account, con for the count as of the 1985 world championships and i was the comeback kid. sue and how much of identity from age four to 17 or 19 was wrapped up in gymnastics? >> itwo 100% all that i did not have an identity outside of theh sport that's what so difficult about leaving it. not just for me but in the elite level athlete you have no identity outside of your sport and then you go become a regular person is very difficult. very hard. stu what interacting regularly with people was a new thing for you? >> in some ways as very auteur sophisticated i traveled all around the world i have lived on my own and coached. ien was so completely immature i had never been on a date.

i do have normal social interactions. i took college. >> and you went to stanford? >> i was on a mission to be a normal kid and i got a little rebellious. >> on gymnastics scholarship? >> no i did not go that route i wanted to get in on my own merit. >> after stanford what happened were to go? >> and moved to san francisco in 1982 upon graduation is the best place i ever live in my whole life i loved it so much it was the home for anyone who ever felt like a weirdo it was embracing everyone was woke up you could be as weird as she wanted to be. ii wanted to beat weird i've ben so obedient as a child i went to push the boundaries a little bit so i really loved it was an artist and young people that's not true to where they to live there.

but i loved it for so long it's difficult i love san francisco to my children could attend school i miss what it was it's not what it was provocative 21 just a second took a series of jobs roommates no money et cetera but. >> that's what you do when you'rewh young. i was with four or five other girls i worked odd jobs. it was fun and eventually landed an advertising agency 1994. i found myself on the levi's account that we know how that all ended up happening. >> at what point in your career were you making the kind of money scm oh or a group president would beat making be making couldlive comfortablyn francisco? >> pummeled by the time most cmo which was 2013. i was very bad at advocating for

myself with compensation and all of that i was terrible at it. i remember when i became the cml someone accidentally sent me i don'tok think this is in the bo, like a spreadsheet with everyone's salary at my level they did not mean to send that to me i was the lowest paid person. i was like a what? i am the highest performer but i had not been very good at that. but you do tell the story in the book about meeting with hr and them telling no increase in pay. >> i agree to that. that was stupid. at what point did you start to become known as the troublemaker? i hate to use that word for. >> it's a nice way to put it. i think the real way would've been not a troublemaker q&a on

conspiracy theorist is what i became known as. was pretty outspoken rate from the start of covid mike march 2020 i question school closures. i did not get a call from anyone until september of 2020. i knew it was controversy over my friends like what you doing question nobody because i said okay maybe they're not on twitter they didn't notice boy it was i wrong about the first: september 2020. >> from? >> my. who is head of corporatete communication sink people are noticing and don't like it. i saidd so? your kids areid in school, right and she said yes for. >> what were her kids in schools and your is not? >> private schools open. >> the private schools were open her kids were going to private public schools work and still at home? >> mine and more importantly 60%

were low income and had no strong why fight no parent at home. my kids were luckier than most in public school. i was concerned about all the children for. >> that level you were at is it tempting toi go the private route? >> is never interested in it. i feel like we are part of the city in the community we live in and i do not want to be cordoned off from it. like raising veal and a pen when you cordon your children off from real life and their neighbors. i want to be part of the city we live it we are not better than the people we live around. >> back to levi's unbuttons quote this is your inner voice talking to yourself this is the way you wrote this. we care about profits to acprincipal phase and you can pt

about lgbtq all of these but when the rubber hits the road it's about the benjamin's as theyey say and desperate to maintain this heart it right over easy or wrong we really care or eat those you strike down into the view that veers from then orthodoxy the san francisco bubble, democratic party orthodoxy because yes you are about party not principles of her you are about appealing to the woke to sell genes because they seem cool to you like they might buy more and spend more than some midwestern unstylish self about a patriot. patriot. that is the loudd part that's te quiet part being sent out loud, correct? >> yes and i get to do that now pay. >> is it refreshing is it scary to be able to say things like that and write things like that? >> it is refreshing. my absolute said what he thought on the issue of covid before but i was restrained i looked back

and i am proud of how i comported myself. >> he sent a lot of the tweets in the book. >> ite is important because any reasonable person reads them now things are perfectly reasonable. i wanted to make that clear. ian would challenge anyone to challenge anything i said. i am nice, i'm diplomatic, i am restrained, i'm never rude. most people now look at the things i'm posting and get i don't get what's wrong with that exactly. i am more free now to let the inside voice out which is freeing it ist liberating i dot have to think what is someone going to think? i've also beene called every ne i'm not afraid of what they will call me i laugh at it now. >> who remembers the woke mob you refer to? consider various cohorts.

there are young employees which is a small but punitive minority like sending e-mails to my boss and hr. there's a cohort of employees who called racist, bigoted cuban on conspiracy theorists and attempted to struggle these ideas out tost be a quick struge session i had to do an apology. .i was briefed before the apoloy to her. >> brand president? as already brown president i was told i need to do an apology tour. there's anep e-mail that prepard me for this apology tour i found after i wrote the book. that basically said you need to prove you are one of us not one of them that you are o one of te the bads not one of guys. people think you are a racist. they think you are a conspiracy theorist and anti-vaccinator you need to prove that you arear no. >> awarded the racistme part coe in with your tweets about covid? >> i will explain that.

it's very convoluted i can do quickly. the idea was if you wanted the schools to open which were disproportionally populated by black and brown children you did not care black and brown children died. that was the convoluted rationale. stu and awarded qanon fall? >> i don't understand that one. i am not sure it is real to this day that i do not know i cannot explain that. >> the anti- vax part are you vaccinated would you talk about the book? >> i am. but i did not want to be i did because it was mandated. stu and for your job? >> yes. stu and why did you not want to? >> guest: i looked at my risk profile it was very, very low. it seemed unnecessary to me. >> of the quote from the book

don't get me wrong i'm not against capitalism far from it i am against the charade that is social justice capitalism. i want to buy stuff it's the best stuff on the market win me over with your excellence i will even pay more for it. i will express my political affiliation with my vote not my sneakers or soft drink of choice b to yes. >> host: can you walk through a crowd and identify people's political affiliation by what they are wearing or carrying. >> certainly if they are wearing like a remote swish, swish is the nike symbol rainbows or pride month t-shirt there are very few brands that are aligned arwith a more conservative unthinking apparel right now i can't think of apparel brands that are aligned.

they are all left that's why i have no job. [laughter] quickly financially secure because of your past employment which is none of my business but asked. >> yes but i can't not work for the rest of my life i'm not that kind of financially secure. i am in no danger of my children going hungry and i need a job. >> she left the city of san francisco after all this happen, correct? >> eight left in the midst of it. in the spring of 21 schools still showed no sign of opening i had a kindergartner who would never set foot in a class or my four children from a kindergartner had never been in a classroom. his first year of school i did not want to be such a disaster. i wanted him to have a good experience and have a good feeling about school. so we move to gender our offices were closed we were working virtually. so that my son could attend school in person. >> why denver?

>> a few reasons i wasn't prepared to move to the burbs i just was not ready. it's close enough to san francisco to get there in one day there and back and i still had some and person meetings with my team. i like and colorado there is a libertarian streak. it isco very blue right now but they're very welcoming to all viewpoints. i have never felt afraid to raise anything andop have an opn honest conversation with my neighbors. and even the governor's called himself a democratic libertarian so i like that. sue and jennifer do you talk to anyone from levis anymore? or were you shunned? >> guest: i was shunned. i talked to a few people who have left it since and have reached out to me since leaving. stuart has anyone said sorry?

>> no. sue and you think you deserve a sorry? >> i do but i'm not waiting for one. >> how is that youe are able to write what you write here did you not take a buyout? >> no i was offered -- my michal has told and gender 22 that i needed to leave, you need to go now. you've lost the trust of the team and the employees there's no room for u.s. leader in this company. if you sign this nondisclosure agreement we will give you $1 million. that was the offer. i decided not to do that because i did not want to sign a nondisclosure agreement so i could write this book. not for the money it's not that much money. but because i thoughtt it was o important to tell the story of censorship. the fact is a fight related to my story in particular, we have been able toon collectively have an open and honest conversation about kids, schools, walk that

we would've reached different decisions. c rather than having an open conversation people like me were demonizing the platform. and that is very dangerous. >> host: the fact you were demonized and deep platform rather than having an open honest o discussion regardless f what the outcome of tha' discussion is a thing that drives you to sense? >> yes. in this particular instance if there had been a societywide conversation withor doctors and epidemiologists are not government led talking points. there were people, renowned doctors pushing back. they were censored if we were permitted to have a conversation would've reached a different answer a right answer our children in california would not have been out of school for close to 19 months. that cost a lot of harm we need

to have those answers when public concern they were demonized as well for what your husband daniel had to say misogynistic? >> that's a good question. i think so that's all conjecture but i don't think anyone was asking the ceo what his wife thought but then again wife wasn't like my husband no one is all that concerned. >> is not in favor of the locked on your husband? is not in favor. he was making that known on social media. >> guest: is very vocal who went and tight lockdown rallies at cap minded kids i thought that was a bridge everyone could get behind we going to harm children i has most outspoken more broadly about a range ofid issus he had a more aggressive and challenging tone than i do but so eddie doesn't work there who

cares. but apparently give a relative ntwith the viewpoint the company doesn't like you don't get to work there anymore and hope everybody thanks about how dangerous this is one of my data as a republican and he's a trump odor question mckee's not does that mean i can't have a job at levi's at the world who want to live in? when did you know when the conservative republicans who voted for donald trump at levi? >> no. not part of the company culture? >> i will tell you the headquarters are in san francisco. the acute review a burning or biden? that wasas acceptable there areo republicans we had an office in texas for distribution i'm certain there's lots of folks in those locales it did vote

republican or trump i also other didn't feel comfortable saying that are made that known to the friends and colleagues. sue went back to levi's unbuttoned yet as i write this still puzzling over where i think the line should be drawn. when is it appropriate for corporations to move beyond protecting employees to taking overtly political stands beyond the walls of the company? still, wherever that line is it's pretty clear when we along with just about every large corporation and america crossed it. quick summer of 2020 piglets when we talking abou' here? >> we are talking about the rallies in the accelerated of privilege and a bowing. the rush to hire hundreds of people elevate hr power and

influence in these companies. i have noo issue with inclusion this is not inclusion. if it were inclusive why does it matter what i say and advocate? which by the way helps the people they say they care about. the student population san francisco public school disproportionally black and brown. there's so many stories of people getting canceled in the summer of 2020% errant comments from 10 years prior that is somehow in today's context perceived is not antiracist. there is a witch hunt going on for quick speaking of that do you think you could have withstood this if you had not been in gymnastics and that fire and that cauldron for 12 or 15 years and had that pressure on you? i don't think having competed in gymnastics is sufficient.

i will say this. wonder of my first book about gymnastic there's a ton of blowback there in the sports community i was in vilified and dragged across the internet. ultimately i was redeemed it took 10 years but i was. everyone came around and said jen was right. i felt clear isa about what i ws saying and that data i was a logical and irrational and that people are going to catch up their emotional right now but they'll catch up. did not beat the clock. but throughout levi's unbuttoned you bring up what you see is hypocriticalr behavior by elite executives and the rest. especially when it comes to schools.

>> guest: yes. the crazy part is i do not know how schools and covid it should not of been political. we should have been concerned about the children. it became a woke pillar of the democratic party platform. that is what started it and then it just became part of the ether. and it just kept going and going and going. and then the harm became so great couldn't admit it was so bad were going to stand by these atrocious policies i think. but yes there was hypocrisy on utthe part of the senior executives who were going to their vacation homes and doing whatever they wanted and claiming we are all in this together which is not true. their kids were in private school or pods and flying to europe but you had the workers

that was not the case for them that was like a frenzy by doing that people believe they're fighting the good fight you could stay home and do not think and feel like the most virtuous person in the world. who doesn't want to feel virtuous for doing nothing? >> you talk about keyboard warriors. >> i get accused of but i would push back on that for. >> what is a keyboard warrior what is the danger of a person like that? >> the key board warrior are people who try to cancel people online on think they are doing good activists and work because they're tweeting a lot and trying to take good people down. i get accused out because ultimately my twitter presence

is was part of my demise is doing all these other things i was attending every school board meeting i worked on the school board recall in san francisco which was successful. i let it rallies i was a real life warrior two. >> do you still tweet from at jennifer? >> i do piglets when you tweet about? life covid? excite tweet i don't have rules for myself and marketed tweet about whatever i want. i talk a lot about the impact of children.ge do not want anyone to forget about this. it cannot happen again. our kids are suffering this has isimpacted a generation of children. i tweet about issues of censorship and other various liberalism's that are happening right now in this country. anything that interests me in the news. nything that you did

during this period? no no, i think i did the right thing and i was true to myself. and so i you know, i try to be grateful that i have the to say >> i try to be grateful that i have the freedom to say anything i want and i'm not hurt by the names they call me now, so i don't regret any of it. >> who is chris and what happened? >> chris is my brother. we used to be close so i thought. we did not agree on covid policy. he was a fervent lockdowner. i was a pretty passionate antilockdowner. in the beginningng of the first year we talked about our disagreement but it became too fraught and we haven't spoken in several years, 2 or 3 years at

this point. his wife is a doctor and find my views to be dangerously critical of doctors. i find the position that not a doctor individually but doctors in public health took to be dangerous and violation of civil liberties. >> levi's unbutton, jennifer writes i like some have no real issue with rich people, that's capitalism. some people, very few will make a lot of money. what i do have an issue is rich people mascaraing as social justice warriors and fierce advocates while they are laying off 15% of the workforce at the same time they are adding tens of billions of dollars to their bank accounts, they can't have it both ways. >> yeah, i don't like hypocrites.

>> people call me a drifter, i don'tth know. i standby my word. >> what's the drift part? >> they think i'm getting money andd i couldn't authentically believe in the things i'm saying. of course,em i believe them. i gave up a lucrative career. i gave up not just the job i had but the future job of ceo which is --- would have been incredibe honor of a company i worked in 23, 24 years. a brandi love and wear and brand i had worn since i was a child. $43 million of stock. i gave that up so i could use my voice. i mean, if -- i think it's incomprehensible to some people that you would give up money to speak the truth, it's

incomprehensible so they think you must be getting paid by someone to o do it. there's no one paying me. >> jennifer sey, levy's unbuttoned, the woke mob took my job but gave me my voice. >> this year marks 23 years on shining the spotlight of nonfiction authors and their books. 16,000 events. book tv is provided viewers with 92,000 hours of programming on the latest literary discussions on history politics the and biography. you can watch book tv on c-span2 or online at booktv.org. book tv 25 years of television for serious readers.

>> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv the documents america's story and on sunday book tv brings you the latest of nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span 2 comes from the television companies and more including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? no, it's way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with a thousand community centers to create wi-fi enabled so students from low-income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. come cost along with television companies support c-span2 as a public service. >> so matt is wonderful to be with you and delight to be able to get to do this with you. we've known each other for years and i find you to be a singularly happy, hopeful and patriotic person and a