to achieve larger objectives. and in both of those cases, it was the working relationships of the commanders that fostered results. though charleston was essentially closed to blockade runners in 1863, perhaps if the united states commanders cooperated as well as their confederate opponents, they could have achieved more against. the sessions birthplace that year. good evening. welcome everyone.

my name is william sturkey and i'm pleased to introduce our guests for tonight's conversation. my immediate left daphne chamberlain, a native of columbus, mississippi and daphne chamberlain serves as vice president for strategic initiatives and social justice. and she is also associate professor of history at, her alma mater, the historic tougaloo college before the opportunity. before returning to tougaloo as a faculty member in 2013, chamberlain was founding director of the cofa civil education center at jackson state, and she is also served as a scholar consultant for numerous local, state and national civil rights projects. her scholarship on children's activism in the 1960s, civil rights richard lou her left grew up in a biracial family that was spiritually and intellectually guided by parents who were both anti-colonialist and culturally affirming. his artwork has been cited in

over 40 scholarly books and on the cover of five different books, the most of which chicano art a anthology was included by art news in the top 100 art books of the decade. lou served for a total of 29 years as department chair at three institutions of higher education, and he continues to exhibit while teaching in the department of art at the of memphis. project. also a mississippi native up the road in richland is co-founder of the emmett till interpretive center in sumner, mississippi. he has dedicated his career to ensuring that the tragic story of emmett till is not only remembered but also serves as catalyst for positive change in the state and beyond. he holds a master's degree from the center for the study southern culture at the university of mississippi and is a former monument lab fellow and w.k. kellogg fellow.

so thank you, everyone thank you for being here tonight with. so how we'll proceed is this as moderator i will lead with some questions for our esteemed panelists and then we'll dive into some from our audience toward the end of our discussion. if you're watching online, you can submit questions in the live chat on on youtube. with that let's go ahead and get started. i'd like to remind our to turn your mikes on please and hold them close to your. i'd like to start by getting us all on footing, so to speak. so for each of you, could you talk about what exactly monuments and what do they mean in our society today. good evening. and thank you all for the opportunity to be here on panel monuments for me. course, i was joking that i love alliteration, so i have a couple of words when. i think of monuments across the

state of mississippi, but a number of monuments that i've visited across the american south, particular. one of those words is remembrance, reflection reconciliation. and last but not least, reading occasion in some instances. so for me, in terms of defining monuments, they aren't necessarily relegated a physical structure because. i even think of people being monumental because of the work that they've done in communities, especially with my work around, the mississippi civil rights movement. but yeah, that's it for me. william is, is when i think monuments those are the words that come to mind too for me. but it's not just the physical structures or statues stand. but there are also people who continue to serve as because of the work that they've done in the legacy that they've left. richard. yes. and also, thank you so for inviting me to be on this august

panel monuments. to me as is a way where a region or, a country can create its own image sort of like nation building and expression of power and also to elicit fear and to make sure that and also it's a teaching artifact to how to behave how to keep people in line and and and not to transgress against those authority and power. and i would completely agree with daphne that i see people as as well. and also with technology. you know, i think of video as being monument monuments. i think. the beating of rodney king, that video being shown over and over and over and it becomes

monumental or the video documentation of january six, where they show it over and over and over and these expressions of power. and so they become monumental, in my mind and also whoever can control these monuments can control meaning, which for me the most critical aspect of monument making and monument retention or destruction. all right, i've got a little bit of a i think everything you said exactly. i would agree with that. for me, i think about in terms of of of peace building studies and think there's a term core called moral imagination, this idea of thinking how do we use

arts and storytelling monuments even to process past games. how do you use it in particular they think about it with countries that have gone through civil war, genocide, that the first thing they need is not new infrastructure schools. they need they need the arts they need the storytelling. they need the culture to heal from whatever is taking place. and that those monuments, those are can also lead towards how society is going to rebuild. and so while it can be this control, i think about the confederate t, i think about those type of statues. i also think that they can be used. reimagining past wounds and creating a narrative for moving forward. so is there much of a difference? monuments and memorials or even cemeteries? what are the functional differences between monuments and cemeteries or memorials. so that for anyone so, i mean,

one thing that comes to mind is, is that we're we're all trying to honor our dead and how do you do that? and i think one of the opportunities is, is we create a space that we honor all dead, hopefully in a respectful way. right. and in a to promote a mosaic democracy. right. that we're not lifting one person's dead over another, but we're we're creating that space. so i don't know about the differences, monuments and memorials and graveyards, but i think a commonality in how we are honoring the people that came before us. and just to add what patrick has stated, i think with regard to honoring those who have died. and we're also talking about inspiring who continue to live and continue those narratives of of members of those who have made these these significant

sacrifices, the history or historical spectrum. so this that's what i see in kind of like you, patrick. i don't understand, you know, really know the difference between the two, but that's way in which i look at it because of my own family's here is thinking about, you know, all these the people who laid the before me and these are the people who continue to inspire me. and of course, those are the shoulders that i stand on and will be able to have my stand on those shoulders as well. let me rephrase the question for the artist that i want to point out is often in cemeteries and, memorials, you look down to honor the people who are who are moved. see but in monument so often do i goes up so too to an artist's you know considering that fact how would you answer the question. well, i going to say that the the difference i mean, in my in my in my own brain is like a the difference between private and public imaginary and or the

difference between a story, a narrative, you know, where public monuments are part of a larger narrative. right. and cemetery, those are individual stories. those are people that we know and love rather than public figures that have participated in these larger events that have actually affected our lives. and so that's the way i see the difference between between those two private and intimate and and larger, larger than life, you know, heroic for one group of people and a non non heroic for others. so i want to ask about some of the harder things about monuments, why they're so hard. i want to talk about feelings specifically everyone in this room, everyone watching us knows that this is an emotional and very politically charged conversation. why is that what i mean, can we really sort of tease out why is

this so emotional? oftentimes, people are arguing over a monument those that aren't actually connected to own individual families yet. it's just as emotional as if it was your own you know, grandfather or ancestor or whatever. you know, if you want to talk about emotions, politics, whatever. but why are the stakes so high? there are some single issue voters and monument is their single issue that they that they vote on. so why they so important in our society? why is it so especially in recent years. i'll start. thank you so i guess i'll start with this there's a lot of anxiety around truth. and i think it i see mr. spears and the audience this evening but i think about a panel that happened several years ago and talking about historical amnesia and how if, you know, it's important us to tell the and it

course those stories vary from person person. but when we talk about feelings getting involved and of course depending on what monuments mean to you personally politically that is where of course you have this polarized issue that rises or bubbles to the top and it begins to fester. and then it manifests itself in such a way that it would begin to see the actions of people in places like january 6th. so for me, when we think about monuments and the role in which they play day to day and, you know, people are internalized, i think their meaning is is it's a very difficult conversation to have, but it's a real conversation to be had simply because of the fact that there is so much controversy around the conversation and in 2009, i did a performance i wrote and directed performance at the it

was called then nathan bedford forest park in memphis, tennessee. and and after the performance we had a panel discussion similar to this at the the powerhouse gallery. now defunct and and some of the sympathizers of the confederate monuments were there as part of the discussion. and this woman stood up and said that she had personal relationship to forrest. she would say that general forrest helped her family or ancestors get over a difficult time in their lives. and so she felt a very personal connection to general forrest. but at the same time, for people that have been marginalized and people of color, that symbolism, negation, right and is a and

it's a negation of who we are, who we and what we strive to be. and so in same room, those two opposing viewpoints were created, an incredible dynamic in regards to the conversation of how can one exist right in the same space as the contrary notion. so it's a very i mean and i think and i don't mean to speak on her, but her worldview was wrecked. and if that world view was removed, then how could she situate herself in regards to how she relates to everyday life in the same for me, my worldview to exist in in contrast in opposition to what nathan bedford forrest stood for. so its existence is a threat to

me. i to admit i've read a lot about nathan bedford forrest. i've never heard about him as a friendly or a help here. so that's a new one. but thank you. depends on the neighbor. so you really get these are these are really thought provoking for for me i'm thinking through that that we don't argue well we don't debate. well i the alluvial collective which is based here in jackson uses something called the welcome table where you engage in conversation around difficult i think that is a really good first step but we're also hearing the two museums, the civil rights history museum and mississippi, where we've got our traveling exhibit and the emmett till center upstairs and we put up a historical sign marker, the. one to where emmett till, a 14 year old child, his body came out of the tallahatchie river

and someone thought that the way to debate that, whether that memorial be there, was to shoot it up. and the first one was put up in 2018 was thrown in the tallahatchie river, the second was shot. so many times that you cannot read the writing on it. and then the third one was shot. and then some students, my alma mater, university of mississippi, stood in front of it with guns. and so i think on one side, i'm like, oh, we just need to argue better, you know? and then the other, there are people with guns using that their way to communicate. and so. i would hope we will lean into a better angels and we figure out a way to communicate with words. but it is it is definitely i mean, even for a 14 year old child. right. and you feel like you feel so threatened that that you have to destroy you sign it.

we got to do a lot better, that's for sure. you know that. that brings me to my next question, which is very much related. but so from the top down, there's a lot of silence related to conversations like this even even this panel, this the past few days in mississippi. i get the feeling there are some people that don't want panels like this necessarily happen. and that's not unique to this state. but that's across the united states. and then, of course, there are also different laws that are banning divisive, i think is the most common phrasing. but it's an odd thing because the monuments are everywhere. they're around us, the streets and the statues and the buildings. they're everywhere. you can barely turn around. and there are counties named people like nathaniel bedford forrest. but then at the same time, despite their omnipresence, we're not allowed to talk about them in some. if you speak about them and you want to work the state or you want to run for politics, that could into your career. so i have to questions first, what do you make of that observer mission? and then second is what sort of

a message does that send to children? what sort of a message that send if we're thinking future oriented about what monuments we deserve, you know, how do we reconcile the work that needs to be done based on that reality reality. i jump in. yes, silence is a almost been a great year. grew up in the city, jackson metro originally was. that's close enough. whereas born and you know i grew up in kind of a post-racial lens right and we didn't about race or you know confederate statues anything like that because we we had past it and we weren't going to talk about it. and so, yeah, it feels like we're entering a new phase. i mean, for sure, the that we we do in the mississippi delta to honor and until there was a 50 year silence where nobody

publicly mentioned emmett till 50 years and it wasn't until a highway memorial sign was put up route 25 and immediately wrote kkk on it. so yes i mean it feels different ways of silencing. i think at one point there was just so much power and control that, you know, no alternative story to be told. and as the as we're as as we're their muscles and telling more inclusive stories, there seems to be fairly new ways to silence. but i think we're finding new ways to communicate to i mean built a smartphone app after signs got shot up and you know there's we've responded with traveling bit so i think there's authoritarianism and silencing very difficult and i think we've got continue to find ways just to spread our.

a i teach in the university of memphis in tennessee and they have recently passed the divisive concept laws years ago and it a chilling effect on our campus and and so you know was carefully listening to what patrick had to say in regards to we need to debate better or it's, you know, lot better but if these laws continue we won't have the same. on those as hooks would say that, knowledge would be subjugated. and so how can we debate better if we're not going to have the same facts. since the reagan era, they have demonized education and educator laws, and so now they've they have create hate to say this but

into they have now created a fine art they have devised these to codify silence right not just at the k-through-12 level, but also at the university and college level. and if you do not abide by the silence, you'll be silenced economically. and so there is a large carrot and component to the divisive laws. and now you have to also report what you're doing to, balance the, diversity, the intellectual diversity on the campus as well. so there's a. it is getting very it's scary in to the the legislation that is has occurred and will is down

down the pike. so i have the great privilege of not having graduated from historic to college. i had the opportunity to also teach there and serve as an administrator. so of course we're not restricted by some of what you're faced with. richard. but patrick has heard me say this before is until the lie and learns to write his own story. the hunter will be the one who was glorified. so it's really important for us to make sure in spaces however we can, we can better the conversation around the history and how it should be taught. and you know it's not about teaching these what to think, but it's to teach them how to and expanding their minds and intellectual capacity in such a way that they go out and they understand that there are systems in place that are oppressed, marginalized groups

of people. but it's important that we make that these students understand the power of the pen on paper in articulating these stories and being inclusive and not silence. the history of of us sitting here on this day, those us sitting in this audience and even spaces that reflect this history here in the mississippi museums. but of course, that has been the one thing that has inspired me most, because as a student at zulu college, i was pushed to think, and i was pushed to ask questions of those sources that that i was reading, which is the reason i sit in the position that in now and doing the research that i do and that it goes to your your final part of your question, william, around you, how does this impact young people as long as you have people who are sitting on the stage like us and doing the work that we're doing, we can really fight against of these structures that are in place that keep this information from young people, these young people

to the history and make sure that it is not lost and that that's how you get it, that william and i think that's a really, really important part. everybody doesn't get the experience that i had as a young story and the tools, but that's our responsibility. let's shift gears just a little bit. let's start dreaming what would or so are our prompts here? what monuments do we deserve? what would our world look like? what would our region or country? what would mississippi look like if? we had monuments that we don't have to protect with removal laws if we had monuments that we don't have to say, well, we can't talk about the conflicts that those monuments came from. if we had monuments that were built into the curriculum, if we had monuments that every student wanted to go to, what would look like and sort of the way that i want to shift conversation next, i'm going to ask richard to start because richard, you once said that one thing that monuments could do or that they should do is empower children with a way to defend themselves. and i wonder if you could say a little bit more about what you

mean by children being able to defend themselves through. public monuments. yeah. thank. i shared that story with you when when i was growing up in the san diego tijuana area. you know, my my mom only had a second grade education and my father finished high school, went to a little bit of college. and and my from from mexico would come would, you know, come and visit. and they would ask me and encourage me, are you going to college? and i would say yes. and they would always say, okay, we're not. but they think that the good to defend yourself. so education our in our arena our familial arena was not how do you get a good job how to advance yourself etc. it's how to yourself and your loved from

those that are trying to exploit you and that stuck with me that this is how this is the purpose. this is one of the purposes of education of a education is not only to find joy, right? and and find purpose and knowledge, but also to to use to as a talisman to protect yourself and your loved ones against those that are in doing you harm. and i don't i hopefully am coming off as like the negative one on stage because i am filled with hope. but i wanted to give the background to that. and daphne said something very important at the very you know and i was thinking about your question, william, and what

would what would be my greatest wish it is to fully or enfranchise the human monuments that walk amongst us and to fully resource the human monuments that walk amongst so they can find full potential in this in this in this country and so that for me would be the investment that would be critical. and beyond that i, i don't have the to like say what would a look what would it look like without your community being subjugated. i don't know what that looks like. and maybe future generations with that in franchise meant with those resources can dream of what a society could look

like that's not subjugated and does not participate hate and perpetuate systems of domination. daphne and patrick. what kind of monuments do we deserve. i share this story quite often in thinking about as fifth or sixth grader. i remember returning to mississippi and reading the jet magazine and seeing one of the most gruesome images any child that age could see. and that was an image, emmett till. and in that moment, i saw myself in that story, despite how many years separate his murder and the i was living at that time, he was black like me. he was called in age with me and of course, his murder here in the state of mississippi. and i think one of the things that we really need to think about as we think about future generations is how can we allow our young people to see themselves in the narrative in a

positive way? because at that particular point in my life that that was a negative image of mississippi, and that's all i could think about. and i was begging my parents, can we please move back to where we came? but of course, i understood that that was a part of the story. this state, this state's rich history. but of course, that there were young people were motivated and that gave momentum or life to a civil rights movement that led by young people here in this state of mississippi. and i think that that's really for young people to see themselves empowered by the power and agency that those young people demonstrated during the 1950s and sixties. and you that when we think about monuments it is it lives in the folks who these movements and allowed their voices be amplified and the that they made and the sacrifices and be respected and also will receive by younger generations.

my highest hope is i mean i think we have especially here in mississippi, feels like we're moving from crisis to crisis. and, you know, it feels like that's you know, we're trying prevent something bad from happening. i hope we can get to a space and and again, like i there's there's many crises but but but how do we. my highest hope is that we could we could have a democratic process where we're able to show up where they were engage age. we're able to trust that actual leaders would listen after decision makings have been made on a on a community level and then we would find out that we have a lot in common. you know as governor winter would say, we all want a good we all want a good job. we all want safe neighborhood. we all want a car in our driveway. you know, we have these things

that and then how do represent those values into monuments into memorials? how do you create that that safety, that courage? yeah. i want come back to you, patrick, to ask about something that. there's there is a video you were interviewed telling this incredible story. and the thing that i took away from that video was this line that you said. and it was and i quote, we think it's really important if we're going listen to stories, that we listen to everybody story. and it made me think of so many of our debates over confederate monuments today. right. focus on sins of the confederacy in the sense of south and the sins of slavery right. but then, of course, many the arguments in favor of keeping confederate monuments sort of treat those monuments as memorials themselves. you know, the poor, everyday soldier who was sort of dragged off to war and of course many of those people, you know, did not have a prosperous lives. they didn't own packs of, you know, enslaved people and these

huge houses and things like that and i just wonder, you know, in light of the tone of our conversations how do we then also make space for for that claim as well? i don't i don't it's mutually exclusive. i mean i mean, i mean, specifically, the the i don't know, the. that that person there was that video can explain the video. sure. please. you know, this there's a video or a real life event where we we finally put up a historical marker, sumner, mississippi, where the trial of j.w. mile and roy bryant of the murderers, that that that and murdered and emmett till. we're and freed and finally there was. 5352 years later there was a historical marker put up and this community member came out and was was very frustrated, was

very angry that someone had put this up and he he wanted it came into the courtroom and he wanted to know who was behind this. and so one of the commissioners of the emmett till memorial commission came out and and said she said, we did what the community did. and so he was already thrown off because he assumed that somebody from, the state or from federal government had put this in his his community and. then he started the rant, well, why we why are we talking about this? this is long gone. we shouldn't be talking about this, mind you, 30 yards across from it. there's a confederate statue. but why are we talking about this? this is long gone. and she she just gave him space to rant. which is which is probably if he was a black man, he probably not would have had that space possibly. right. but, but. but she dignified him with space. listen to his story. and finally, after he felt

listened to, he was in a receptive. and so she said how, old is your son. and i think she already knew. but he said, i'm not sure. i think he's about to turn 14. and she said, well that's how old emmett was. we're not trying to force anything on anybody. we're not trying to change anybody's way life, but we're trying to tell this so it never happens to anybody. 14 year old and so when he went back to his house, he came to her house later and offered to put a garment over, the marker the day a day that our community was apologizing to the teal family for what took place, our community and, you know, offered as his his way. so he had a damascus change overnight, you know within, you know, 3 hours. that's not always possible. but i think that is a high hope. and i do i mean, i do i believe in humanity. i still believe that we have better angels.

and i think sometime that that was a white person talking to a white person. i think that sometimes is what we need. so yeah, how does that interaction is is a good story regardless. i'm going to i have time for just just one last question for each of you. we're going to open it up to the audience here. but i i just want to ask, is there anyone or any group of people in particular or any type of monument, even especially beyond the statue that you think we could incorporate as we build monuments in the future. i grew up in columbus, mississippi and i share with william earlier this week that just and i had some of my earliest history lessons driving around the community and big pilgrimage town every april you would have the pilgrimage and i

used to always be in awe of. the antebellum homes. so of course it was odd for people to hear me say at the university of mississippi that wanted to do civil war and reconstruction and completely went in a different direction with rights history. but i also shared, william, in that conversation that i think of those homes, monuments, but not to the affluence, those who live there, but really to lift up the stories and unheard voices of those built those homes. and as those people so that's that's my answer is when i think about just in my childhood and even thinking outside of the on who those monuments represent reflect their story, it's those untold stories or those voices that have been silenced that do need to be amplified. and we need to pay attention to their always sides of the story. i'd like to lift up.

patrick had to say a ago and part of is how do we dissent to the narrative right and localize it and and to provide opportunities where we can listen to each other and remind each other that that we're neighbors and that and not enemies, and that we have a commonality and commonalities our humanity and do we lift how do we lift that up? how do we find opportunities? how do we seize upon opportunities to continue to do that and then build a collaborative where we can amplify each other's voices right block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood, community, community. because if we listen to what is if we listen to the center, the narrative broadcast by the centers of power, we're never to be able to talk to each other. you know, richard, i'm going to

i'm going to take what you said just one step further. perhaps we need monuments that aren't just soldiers and too violent acts, but what the educators and the builders and the people that, you know, raised families. patrick i was going to say like a really big horse with a guy on top, but i guess. yeah i yeah, i really like the localized piece of this, right? that, that once you get to the local. that's where the real conversation happens. and and i do think is the possibility that that we are stars in the night, that we can help guide each other, that if sumner, mississippi can, take responsibility and change its own narrative, that we can light up for webb or for memphis wherever, and that we can we can gain strength off of each other. so i think that is. but i but i definitely think that that local pieces where we

can hear each other okay let's take some questions so. if anyone in the audience has any questions, please feel free to stand here to the right. but first question comes from are youtube live chat? this is a general question for panelist. how we often turn to the arts to help us confront fraught histories. what are some other modes of political imagination that you can think of. you see there being yes, we often turn to the arts help us confront fraught histories. what are some other modes of political imagination in that you can think of.

i think patrick mentioned the welcome table earlier just having meaningful, transparent, honest conversations. that is a perfect platform. not always the the easiest platform to be able to open in conversation. but i think that that's how you begin to remember, reflect and reconcile reconcile. to piggyback where, you know, we're a society that we're constantly looking at our phone and and ourselves and. we used to be a society of entertainment centers, right where instead of sitting on our porches, conveniently living with our neighbors, we like look and put something in our vcr or a dvd, but actually to return to a being porch and having, you

know, having conversations with your neighbors. right. and maybe even having monthly block parties where people can come up, have food, share food, tell stories, laugh, celebrate each other and that's doesn't take much effort. but they to our place. i do i really do think art is is is a pivotal way i think welcome table light conversations are key community is key trust key but but i think we under emphasize the power art and storytelling and literature and we've got to remember that those are those are sacred they're they're what cultures have relied on for generations. and that they are power what our

our stories are our power. our next question comes an in-person audience. hi, my name is cynthia gilroy. and first of all, i'm very honored to be in this setting. this is an amazing panel. patrick, you mentioned earlier that you grew up in a post-racial society household, whatever. and so you didn't talk about it growing up. and i wish you could just be elaborate on that a little bit. i'm an elementary school teacher. i teach art and i'm teaching about mississippi history and culture through the arts. i'd be fired if i were in florida right now, but i find that the kids don't talk about this. they have not talked about this. and that's a problem. so i'm just wondering if you could on that a bit. yeah. mean i, i grew up in mississippi. i grew going to a school, not here, far from here. and i, i, you know, one of my stories is, is having a racial

incident happen on on campus as a high school student and then someone used the n-word to a friend of mine, i was in the middle of of this kind of skirmish and, the n-word use other epithets were used against jewish students. and then we didn't talk about it. you know, we got punished. and then but we never really went to the root of why did when a fight began and people went to their worst punch verbal punch and they went to those words and we didn't deconstruct that we didn't use as a learning tool or learning moment we just had to wash tables and, you know, they were really clean afterwards. but i feel i feel like, you know, i've got two and a half year old. i hope that i am. i hope he gets as a lot of that from home. i hope he from school. i hope he gets him from his

church. that we are not in a post-racial society, that we and thank god we're not right. and so if you have ideas, share them with me. i think it's that we now learning i don't have the answers, but i know what i was what i what happened to me was not dancer. yeah. could you just then say what it was that turned on or made aware that you needed to start talking about it? what me aware was running away from mississippi because i thought it was broken. it would never change. and that's why i think memorials are important that we realize they can change. and we rise to societies and communities change. but i learned that from learning from the till generation and learning about civil rights movement, learning those stories, how young people did make change in mississippi and then giving me hope to actually stay here and make part of that change. okay. thank you. yeah. our next question.

hello, my name is michael woo. i'm a zocalo member from los angeles visiting jackson for the first time. thank you to moderator and the panel for scintillating conversation. my question to each of the panelists is if you could look ten years into the future could you propose a new monument in mississippi that does not currently exist and what message would you want that monument to tell a visitor could actually jump. i'm going to give you guys a second because to me, there's easy answer for that in 60, the number of enslaved people outnumbered the number of white people in the state by over 80,000. and everywhere you look, there's confederate monuments. there's virtually nothing that recognizes their existence. and it would be something that was big and important. and it said that these people lived here and that they mattered while they.

history is complex and complex, did it all at the same time. ten years forward, i would say perhaps monument. that is a labyrinth of sorts that captures. the good, the bad and the ugly. but of course it's inclusive and includes all of those voices that up this rich history that in the state where many of us were born raised and love. besides williams brilliant idea. a statewide academy where where students high school students come and learn strategies of resistance whether it's storytelling in art making journalism, investigative reporting research history, the language arts, etc. but all based around resistance.

yeah. williams was amazing and needed. i think it takes the best of mississippi to talk about the worst of mississippi, right? that's what casey lehman told me. time and i stick to that. i also think that there space for black joy. i think there's space for the chinese-american in the delta i think there's so many mississippi's there needs to be a memorial a monument for like we need more stories, not less stories. let's flood our imagination with stories. let's do a, you know, one for our writers. the amazing writers from mississippi, the major educators, mississippi. like, just pour it on. and then a couple of football one speakers our next question comes from professor david yates from millsaps. so when i think about the the grand monumental tradition, right, the sort of big statue, massive stonework and all this,

and you think about it, it sort of is context. it's almost always wrapped in power and systems of domination. look at societies like greece or rome those were powerful people, buildings statues to say a very specific of message, almost wrapped up in oppression. when we think about new monuments or monies, we deserve should, we be thinking outside of that tradition. maybe in a not post memory world course, but post grand tradition. you know, i'm thinking about you were mentioning the houses right the found monuments that are multivalent by definition and not built to transfer an actual specific message message. that's for everyone. i'll go first. so, yes, obviously i mean with the and i mean i hope every note i was joking when i said a bigger force and a bigger man i don't want to go to a space

where we're you're like, what is it? right? like hope that they emote some type meaning. but i think that that that you know that meaning is love that meaning is community. i mean i mean and how do you show that right. how do you express that maybe it is gathering spaces where communities who ordinarily would not have come to the courthouse square because felt that was not their space that becomes a gathering space that people feel comfortable there, they see themselves in place. so i placemaking could be a part of this, but i hope that again, we just flood the imagination with those possibilities. i, i, i really really like what patrick had to say, but in regards to like space making, but where there's ritual, right? and, and ritual is the coming together of different communities to reconnect to do,

to reaffirm the, the, the, the, how they bind, how they're to each other and. and i think those are i think, you know, and it could be very instructive you know, you do, you know, it's like by step, like like a game. you do this know the could be like walls that have text and says okay now do this hold each other's hands or or or, you know, go touch it. go, hold, embrace, stranger, etc. but, you know, i'm i'm just thinking off the top of my head. but the idea of not just objects, but does that how do those objects activate a space where it elicits an action by all of us right and action that really creates. oh, did did a.

so we are short on time but. our last question comes from our youtube chat. what are the most compelling monuments you're seeing young people? how will they shape, purpose and or impact a monuments change as our younger generations grow up. so i'll give a shout to the emmett till academy in sunflower county. gloria dickerson, who is a moore supervisor there. her family helped integrate the schools and drew, she unseated a man who was a distant cousin of the murderers of emmett till. she him twice as a black woman, but she started the emmett till academy to young people. emmett was murdered in town. i mean sunflower county almost, said tallahatchie in sunflower county and. that story has gone really

unrecognized. and those group of young people have created a civil rights tour of the mississippi delta. they're thinking through what a marker might look like in their community in drew, mississippi. so it's unfinished. but i just want to give them a shout out as a as a group of young people that are thinking through this type of work. the tougaloo nine, joyce ladner hollis, a color of lady i'll make arthur cotton. and i'm thinking about students who were at tougaloo during the height of the civil rights movement when i'm also thinking students who are currently enrolled at jp's tougaloo early college high school who just recently a documentary of short document untouchables role in the rights movement except it's

national day and they were led by mississippi's educator of the year, alexandria drake. so when i think about these monuments that young people are committed to putting out there in the public space, for people to not just be educated but also embrace and be empowered by and, that's been a really important when i just learned this the other day and i was so excited that young people are gaining this resurgence and wanting to learn more about history and they're taking into their own hands and crafting it into a way that is delivering a powerful message to the mass is and that they can also a voice in there. so that's that's what gives me hope. and i'm extremely optimistic the work that gloria dickerson is doing, the work that these young people, the jp early college, tougaloo college high school are doing. and i just look forward to seeing more across the state and also across the nation.

because i have the i have the great privilege of watching my students rediscover through the art making process and to use the transform the power of art to make the to make the invisible, visible and and i more and more of our of our students use the transformative of art to search for their own identity. and in such we continue to amplify what it is to be a human being in tennessee and everywhere else. and so that for is a grand monument. thank you all much. it's time for us to close. so i just want to thank you all for this incredible conversation. it's truly been an honor to moderate this panel. thank you to everyone in the audience who joined us here in person today and to everybody who joined us online as well. you will be able to find a summary of our discussion at zocalo public squares talk by tomorrow plus interviews with all of our panelists.

you can also subscribe to zocalo newsletter, the podcast and social media accounts. this conversation is part of zocalo series. how should societies remember their since supported by the melo, the mellon foundation? i hope that you'll all join us when we have the next installation of this conversation, which is titled why is it remembering enough to repair daphne, rach, richard and patrick? thank you all so much, everyone join me in once again taking our panelists. there we go. all right.