things going on. anyway i like that. you always are doing interviews and statements and people and i know you're trying to do that relevant to somebody what is asking betty cuts into the open phones and i think it should be a half-hour every day. i'll tell you what if you watch this for 30 years we've been doing a lot more of the open quorum in the past year or two that we did previously and we did a lot during the covid crisis and got a lot of reaction from people and what happened in their part of the country and their reactions to responses. >> were leaving this year to the 40 year gavel to gavel coverage of congress read the senate is coming back in on a vote to block the blighted administration student loan

repayment plan is set for 2:30 p.m. eastern. live coverage on c-span2.

mr. cassidy: madam president. the presiding officer: the senator from louisiana. mr. cassidy: i request the quorum call be vitiated. the presiding officer: we are not in a quorum call. the senator is recognized. mr. cassidy: i was misinformed. okay. thank you. madam president, the senate will soon vote on a congressional review act. the resolution of disapproval to

overturn president biden's new test student loan scheme. just like president biden's original student debt cancelation scheme, this idr does not forgive debt. it transfers the burden of $559 billion in federal student loans to the 87% of americans who don't have student loans, who chose not to go to college, or who already responsibly paid off their debts. i want to emphasize this point. there is much said in this chamber about those who do less well, and the implication that a policy like this would benefit those who do less well. this benefits folks who, couples who make over $400,000. they went to college precisely to get a degree to earn more money, and many of them are earning more money, and this forgives their -- no, it doesn't forgive their debt, it transfers their debt to someone who never

went. someone who he and his wife, she and her husband, they're making $60,000 a year, are going to have to pick up the slack for a couple making over $400,000. this is not a benefit for those who are less well off. this is a benefit, a political payout to folks who have done quite well. precisely because they went to college. under this rule, a majority of bachelor degree student loan borrowers will not be expected to pay back even the principal. 91% of new student loan debt would be eligible for reduced payments subsidized by the taxpayers. where is the forgiveness for the guy who didn't go to college but is working to pay off the loan on the truck he takes to work? what about the woman who paid off her student loans but either bought a less-expensive home but is now struggling to afford the

mortgage she has? is the administration providing them relief? no, nada, of course not. instead, the administration would have them not only pay their bills, but the bills of those who decided to go to college in order to make more money or who made a decision not to pay back their student loans so they could buy a bigger house. this is irresponsible, it is deeply unfair. aside from being unfair, this student loan cancelation scheme does not address the root cause that created the debt in the first place. for example, president biden's policy does not hold colleges or universities accountable for rising costs. in the last 30 years, tuitions and fees have jumped at private, nonprofit colleges -- nonprofit colleges, by 80%. at public four-year institutions, they've jumped 124%. now, college is one of the

largest financial investments many americans make, but there is little information for the student and her family to know that they are making the right decision where they are attending or the amount they're borrowing. my republican colleagues and i recently introduced the lowering education cost and debt act, a package of five bills aimed at directly addressing the issues driving skyrocketing costs of higher education and the increasing amounts of debt students take on to attend school. by the way, some of these bills are, by themselves, in a package, but you divide them out and some of them are bipartisan in support and in sponsorship. our legislation puts downward pressure on tuition, empowers students to make the educational decisions that put them on track to succeed, both academically and financially. we're providing solutions for students and working to solve the student debt crisis. not a band-aid that merely

transfers the debt to someone else, someone who is oftentimes poorer, less financially well off than the person who no longer has the responsibility to pay back the loan. president biden's student loan scheme is not a fix. it appears to be a politically motivated giveaway, forcing taxpayers to shoulder the responsibility of paying off someone else's debt. we need real leadership to address the issue. i close by encouraging all my colleagues to join me in voting to pass this congress review act resolution to prevent this unfair student debt cancelation scheme. unfair to the hundreds of millions of americans who will bear the burden of paying off hundreds of billions of dollars of someone else's student loan a student loan they took to make more money than almost all those other people. that, i yield and thank the president.

the presiding officer: the clerk will call the roll. quorum call:

this is an update over existing rules that govern the ethics and operations of the judiciary that only the supreme court but throughout the judiciary, throughout the country. this document was important because questions have been raised about the practices of the court and about public disclosures of some of their activities. but the good news is this was adopted by all nine members of the court and codifies ethic rules and principles that guide the justices conduct.

i'm glad that the court took this step to make clear to the american people that they were committed to operating with the highest ethical standards. but i rise in strong opposition to senate joint resolution 43 that we'll be voting on today, and the reason for that is that we have got to be very clear as to what's happening in america right now. today, while the very wealthiest people in our country are becoming much wealthier, over 60% of americans are living paycheck to paycheck, and many are working for starvation wages and under really bad working conditions. in america today, while ceo's are making nearly 350 times as

much as their average workers works tens of millions of our people, in every state in this country, are struggling to pay the rent, to pay for the child care they need, to pay for health care, to pay for prescription drugs, and to put food on the table. that is the reality of america today. while that is true for people of all ages, it is especially true for our younger people, who by the way, if we don't change the nature of our economy soon, will have for the first time in the modern history of america a lower standard of living than their parents. now, madam president, if we lived in a nation with a rational set of priorities, we

would not be giving more tax breaks to billionaires and large corporations, as many of our republican colleagues want, not at a time when we are more income and wealth inequality than we have ever had. we would not be spending, in my view, $900 billion on the military while the military industrial complex makes huge profits in cost overrawnsd -- overruns and while the pentagon not audited. what we would be doing if we had a set of priorities, like a number of other countries around the world are doing, is to understand that the future of our country rests with the young people in america. that's where our future is. and once we understand that, we would be doing everything

possible to make sure that every young person in this country, regardless of income, receives the best quality education that our nation can provide. that's what we would be doing if we wanted this country to succeed. our goal must be to make sure that we have the best educated workforce in the world in a highly competitive global economy. and i would point out that that is not only important for individuals, for the young people themselves, it is vital for the future of our country. everybody understands that if you have a poorly armed and poorly trained military, they don't win battles. if you have a poorly educated

population in a radically changing world economy, dependent more and more on technology, if you don't have a well-educated resource, our economy is not going to succeed in this global economy. madam president, in 1990 the united states led the world in terms of the percentage of young people between the ages of 25 and 34 with college degrees. we led the world in 1990. today we are in 15th place. not number 1, not number 5, not number 10. we are in 15th place behind countries like south korea, canada, ireland, australia, the netherlands, and belgium. 15th place for the richest country on earth should not be the place we are in if we are concerned about the future of

this country and the need for a well-educated population. 40 yes ago a federal pell grant paid for over 80% of tuition, fees, room, and board at a four-year public college. but today, because of massive cutbacks in education, pell grants cover less than a third of those expenses. 40 years ago it covered 80%. today less than a third. and, madam president, that is a major reason why more than 45 million americans are drowning in over $1.7 trillion in student debt. and, madam president, i'm sure it's true in nevada and i'm sure it's true in vermont and i'm sure it's true in louisiana, we have hundreds of thousands of bright young people who have the

ability to get a college degree or to get a good trade certificate, but they cannot afford to do so. how absurd is that? if we love this country and we're concerned about the future to, say to young people you're bright, you're smart, you did well in high school, but you come from a lower-income family. too bad you can't afford to go out and become a teacher or a doctor or an engineer. too bad. i think that that is absurd. and let's be clear, we don't just need more four-year college graduates. we need more welders and electricians and plumbers and pipe fitters and carpetten -- carpenters and electricians. this congress passed a record-breaking amount of money

to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. that's the good news. i think almost everybody is proud of that. the bad news is we don't have workers to do the work, to build the bridges, the sewer systems we need, the water plants. we spent huge amounts of money in dealing with the existential threats of climate change. we don't have the twoa help us with solar, wind, and other forms of sustainable energy. now, in my view -- and obviously i speak only for myself, not the president. my view is if we had a rational set of priorities in this country rather than worrying about tax breaks for billionaires and for wall street, what we would do is make all public colleges and universities in this country tuition-free and cancel all student debt. that's what i think we should do that would be rational. 100 years ago people fought and said you know what? it's unfair that working-class

kids can't go to high school. and they're working in factories, working on farms, working in the fields. people fought and said you know what? we need to make public education free, and they did it. today any kid in america, any state in america can walk into a public school, doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, you get the best education that system can provide. the world has changed over 100 years, and what was good 100 years ago or 50 years ago in terms of a high school degree has changed, and we need, in my view, to make public colleges and universities tuition-free. and, by the way, what we are seeing all over this country, in this state, that state, this city, is a movement in that direction. i applaud all those public officials around the country whose states and cities are moving in that direction, making community colleges tuition-free, public colleges tuition-free. but, madam president, what i

would like to see happen is not what the president's plan is about. not at all. but this is what the president's plan does do. it cuts student loan payments in half for americans who have taken out undergraduate loans. in fact, under the president's save plan, student loan borrowers will be seeing their monthly payments reduced from 10% of their income down to just 5%. further, the president's plan eliminates monthly student loan payments entirely for people who are earning less than $15 an hour. and it gives student loan borrowers the ability to wipe out or to substantially reduce their student loan debt over a ten-year period. madam president, if senator cassidy's resolution is

enacted, it would repeal president biden's plan and it would eliminate student debt relief for more than 5 million americans who desperately need it. that would be absolutely unacceptable. now my republican colleagues tell you that they want to repeal the president's student loan plan because it costs too much money. we just can't afford it. well, i'm not going to deny that it does cost a lot of money. but what i find amusing is that when we are saying we need to help working-class and lower-income young people, what my republican colleagues say we can't afford to do that, but what we can do is vote to give away over $1 trillion in tax breaks to the top 1% in large corporations when former

president trump was in office, without paying for it. we can't help young people with their student debt, but we can give tax breaks to the richest people in this country and large profitable corporations. so, madam president, if we can afford to provide trillions of dollars in tax breaks and corporate welfare to the wealthiest people in this country and to the largest corporations, we can help out millions and millions of young people in this country. i've talked to young people who say you know what? i can't afford, we can't afford to get a home of our own. we can't afford even to buy a car. we were thinking about having kids, we can't even afford to do that. so i think we have got to get our priorities right and understand that a vote for this

resolution would deny student debt relief to millions of americans across every state and across every congressional district. a vote for this resolution would place millions of americans at risk of eventually delinquency and default on their student loans. we cannot allow that to happen. i urge may colleagues to vote against this resolution, and i yield the floor. the presiding officer: the senator from louisiana. mr. cassidy: i move to proceed to s.j. res. 43. the presiding officer: under the previous order, the motion to proceed is agreed to. the clerk will report the joint resolution. the clerk: calendar number 244, s.j. res. 43, providing for congressional disapproval under chapter 8 of title 5 united states code of the rules submitted by the department of education relating to improving income-driven repayment for the

william d. ford federal direct loan program and the federal family education loan program. mr. cassidy: madam president, i ask for consent that the vote begin now. the presiding officer: is there objection? without objection. the question occurs on passage of the joint resolution. is there a sufficient second? there appears to be. the clerk will call the roll. vote: the clerk: ms. baldwin. mr. barrasso. mr. bennet. mrs. blackburn. mr. blumenthal. mr. booker. mr. boozman. mr. braun. mrs. britt. mr. brown. mr. budd. ms. butler. ms. cantwell. mrs. capito. mr. cardin. mr. carper. mr. casey. mr. cassidy. ms. collins.

mr. coons. mr. cornyn. ms. cortez masto. mr. cotton. mr. cramer. mr. crapo. mr. cruz. mr. daines. ms. duckworth. mr. durbin. ms. ernst. mr. fetterman. mrs. fischer. mrs. gillibrand. mr. graham. mr. grassley. mr. hagerty. ms. hassan. mr. hawley. mr. heinrich.

mr. hickenlooper. ms. hirono. mr. hoeven. mrs. hyde-smith. mr. johnson. mr. kaine. mr. kelly. mr. kennedy. mr. king. ms. klobuchar. mr. lankford. mr. lee. mr. lujan. ms. lummis. mr. manchin. mr. markey. mr. marshall.

mr. mcconnell. mr. menendez. mr. merkley. mr. moran. mr. mullin. ms. murkowski. mr. murphy. mrs. murray. mr. ossoff. mr. padilla. mr. paul. mr. peters. mr. reed. mr. ricketts. mr. risch. mr. romney. ms. rosen. mr. rounds. mr. rubio. mr. sanders.

mr. schatz. mr. schmitt. mr. schumer. mr. scott of florida. mr. scott of south carolina. mrs. shaheen. ms. sinema. ms. smith. ms. stabenow. mr. sullivan. mr. tester. mr. thune. mr. tillis. mr. tuberville. mr. van hollen. mr. vance. mr. warner. mr. warnock. ms. warren. mr. welch. mr. whitehouse. mr. wicker. mr. wyden.

mr. young. senators voting in the affirmative -- cassidy, cotton, cramer, crapo, ernst, lummis, ricketts and rubio. senators voting in the negative -- cardin, casey, gillibrand, heinrich, hirono, kaine, kelly, king, merkley, rosen, sanders, shaheen, smith, van hollen, warren, and wyden. mr. peters, no. mr. cornyn, aye. mr. reed, no.

the clerk: mr. kennedy, aye.

mr. welch, no. mr. ossoff, no. mr. marshall, aye. mr. rounds, aye.

the clerk: ms. klobuchar, no.

the clerk: mr. fetterman, no.

the clerk: mr. schmitt, aye. mr. risch, aye. mr. carper, no. ms. cantwell, no.

mr. grassley, aye. the clerk: mr. thune, aye.

the clerk: mr. lee, aye.

the clerk: mr. scott of florida, aye. mr. wyden, no. ms. cortez masto, no.

the clerk: mr. menendez, no.

the clerk: mr. lujan, no. mr. hagerty, aye.

the clerk: mr. bennet, no. the clerk: mrs. fischer, aye.

ms. stabenow, no.

vote: the clerk: mrs. hyde-smith, aye. mr. boozman, aye. mr. hickenlooper, no.

the clerk: mr. young, aye. mr. moran, aye. the clerk: mrs. murray, no.

the clerk: mr. tuberville, aye. mr. schumer, no. mr. wicker, aye. mr. graham, aye.

the clerk: ms. collins, aye. ms. duckworth, no.

the clerk: mrs. blackburn, aye.

the clerk: mr. durbin, no.

the clerk: mr. tester, no. mr. johnson, aye.

the clerk: mrs. capito, aye.

the clerk: mr. paul, aye. mrs. britt, aye. mr. whitehouse, no.

the clerk: mr. barrasso, aye. mr. sullivan, aye. mr. blumenthal, no.

the clerk: mr. hawley, aye. mr. budd, aye. clerk: mr. hoeve.

the clerk: mr. hoeven, aye. mr. brown, no. ms. baldwin, no.

the clerk: mr. vance, aye.

the clerk: mr. braun, aye.

the clerk: ms. butler, no. the clerk: mr. cruz, aye.

the clerk: mr. mcconnell, aye.

the clerk: mr. daines, aye.

the clerk: mr. coons, no.

the clerk: mr. booker, no. the clerk: mr. schatz, no.

the clerk: ms. murkowski, aye.

the clerk: mr. tillis, aye. mr. padilla, no. ms. sinema, no.

mr. murphy, no. mr. lankford, aye.

vote:

the clerk: mr. romney, aye.

the clerk: mr. manchin, aye. the clerk: mr. warnock, no.

the clerk: ms. hassan, no.

the clerk: mr. markey, no. is

vote:

the clerk: mr. mullin, aye.

vote:

vote:

vote:

vote:

vote:

[inaudible] [inaudible] >> good afternoon, everyone. house democrats came in to this week with three principal objectives with respect continuing resolution. first, no spending cut. second, no extreme right wing policy changes.

mission accomplished. third, no government shutdown. democrats and republican the bipartisan path forward and watching house republicans are unable to govern on their own. , no further observation. today should make that clear as has been the case from the events of the congress january 3 all the way through to this moment. from the very beginning house democrats have said we will work to find bipartisan common ground

with our republican colleagues on any issue whenever and wherever possible. the jobs of the congress problems for hard-working american taxpayers and that's what house democrats are going to continue to do. reasonable partners on the other side of the aisle to join us to make life better as opposed to literally fighting each other. >> the notion of the right wing policy so what changed?

>> it was successful in stopping republicans from imposing a letter resolution. andy biggs of to 12 possible expiration dates. it was nonsensical, extreme and an effort to try to set up 12 opportunities for republicans to set up. the latter continuing resolution. what was then presented to us were involving for appropriations bills, all that

are noncontroversial and three of which passed the senate in a bipartisan way that expired january 19 and the remaining eight included labor age. together to get support and expire february 2. it is certainly something we could live with the fact that on substance every redline we articulated. >> can you pull back the curtain? >> we have an open and honest

candidate relationship that i had with kevin mccarthy. at times we will strongly disagree with each other but my approach will continue to be agree to disagree without being disagreeable. it is working to accomplish the objectives and onto house republicans conference and we will continue to work in good faith to accomplish what we believe is important. >> obviously we are going to be able to fund the government but it remains for the fiscal year, how confident are you house and senate can find an agreement on what we have seen in the house?

conversations started between house and senate leaders to make the deadline? >> it will be important to immediately begin and negotiation led by our appropriators on our side. to articulate the values are important for the american people, that should happen in our view medially. in a matter where spending numbers are consistent with bipartisan responsibility act that everyone agreed to end his not a matter of law. it is time for maga republicans to end, but can't even pass their own bills.

why are we wasting time? we have a tough time spending numbers established in may through the responsibility act and house republicans themselves negotiated to not be clear the entire world the only path forward is bipartisan will be proceed with appropriations discussion amongst house democrats, house republicans, senate democrats and senate republicans in a manner consistent, that is the path forward. the senate agrees on the all the biden administration agrees and house democrats agree on the, many house republicans agree.

>> just put speaker on notice and come up with a plan and responsibly and things like that, your reaction that it was another motion? >> yesterday it a new low including actual physical violence and my hope they will dial down the temperature and join house democrats putting people over politics and delivering for the american people. the house republicans reality show is out of control right now and undermining the ability of congress to solve problems for hard-working americans.

>> he has not been convicted in the court of law. none will. [inaudible] >> any expulsion shall be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. it seems to me santos is unfit based on clear lies he told to the people of the district in new york but in terms of any resolution before congress potentially at the end of this march will have reserve judgment until i have the opportunity to the report. >> i what time you voted on this

previously, would you like to see it reintroduced? >> let's wait until the ethics report is released in half an opportunity to review it because it will be an actual investigation with actual findings that will happen arrived bipartisan way. being evenly divided i think it requires serious analysis of that ethics report and hopefully bipartisan conclusion is the appropriate way deal. >> twenty-seven off democrats. >> the case that i would make to the entire congress and the

american people the report really justifies expulsion. >> some republicans just their desire but do not include the irs budget, would you be considering that give about some have even? >> israel's time of grief and urgency but also ukrainian people. ...

the house republicans have lost their legitimacy with respect to governing on this issue. they can't even pass their own appropriations bill. so i do think that house democrats and house republicans can engage in negotiations at a four corners level with our senate colleagues but the notion that house republicans should lead on this issue or any issue that the train has left the station. [inaudible] butcher take away -- what's your

take away with democrats in 2024 especially that biden has been polling well so what do you make of the democrats? >> my confidence is high right now and i think that's because we have a credible track record of accomplishing in terms of what has happened in democrats had the opportunity to pass the american rescue plant infrastructure investment in jobs being brought to the american people, clean water and every community high-speed internet manufacturing jobs back home to america and the chips in science act in the course striking a dramatic against the crime it -- climate crisis and the stark fashion in inflation reduction act and dropping the price of insulin to $35 a month for millions of americans. we have an incredible track

record of success success and we have a vision for the future. we will continue to put people over politics and fight for the things that matter like lower costs, growing the middle class, safer communities, reproductive freedom, as the strengthening social security and medicare and building an economy that works for hard-working every day americans and we have the clear contrast with the chaos and the dysfunction and extremism on the other side of the aisle. coming from house republicans which repeatedly have demonstrated the inability to govern and responsible fashion. >> mr. leader you mentioned the national security supplemental

[inaudible] >> it's my hope in the context of the negotiations that are ongoing in the senate right now with respect to national security issues that are before them that they will also consider the domestic supplemental funding request that came from the biden administration including on childcare, on affordable internet access, and as it relates to the women infants and children program. in my view those critically important domestic policy priorities should be part of the ongoing discussion and hopefully will be part of any legislation that emerges from the senate and to send it to the house of representatives.

they are many democratic senators who believe in the urgency of addressing the domestic policy priorities that have been articulated by president biden and the administration so i'm still very hopeful we'll see that taking care of in the legislation that ultimately moving. and house of representatives are closing in on impeaching president biden. what's your reaction? house republican extremists cannot get out at their own way. i mean republicans were routed electorally last week because they continued to peddle extreme things like criminalizing abortion care or imposing a nationwide abortion ban. the american people know that republicans have put a target on

the backs of social security and medicare. many don't believe in democracy as we know it. house republicans have no interest in solving problems for the american people in terms of reducing costs and addressing affordability issues and if they were to go down the road of an illegitimate impeachment of president biden, all that will do is reinforce the notion that house republicans are too extreme and unfit to govern. and knott. >> their ongoing discussions with respect to fisa reform and legislative activity that has taken place and i'm very hopeful and optimistic that we will see fisa reauthorized by the end of the year with some reforms

agreed upon in a bipartisan way. democrats and republicans on the house judiciary committee are working on some fisa reforms and democrats and republicans on the house intel community led by jim hines are working on fisa reauthorization as well. that's why the i'm pretty confident we'll are going to be able to find common ground necessary. it's not a highly partisan issue. they are democrats on the house judiciary committee who agree with republicans on the house judiciary committee who may have a different position in terms of the house judiciary committee members than democrats on the house intel committee who agree with their republican colleagues on the house until committee who may differ from judiciary committee members. when you see that kind of lineup, it usually means there's a clear path forward for

congress to find common ground. >> mr. leader how would you characterize the morale with the stalemate in the conflict? >> morale is very high. earlier today, i usually have an opportunity to give a report to the congressional caucus and in my report this week was very short. no spending cuts, no right-wing extreme policy changes, no government shutdown no votes tomorrow, happy thanksgiving. [laughter] that's the type of report that when you are able to give it, means morale is very high. >> two dozen members of the

democratic caucus and knott [inaudible] seem. >> my opinion is very clear which is that we have three things that need to happen in the context of the israel hamas war. first, israel must decisively defeat hamas and make sure that this brutal regime never rises again. decisively defeating hamas is the right thing to do for israel but it's also the right thing to do for the democratic aspirations of the palestinian people. in gaza. second, we to do everything possible to bring the hostages home safely. third, it's important to support

the biden administration's efforts to surge humanitarian assistance to palestinian civilians in gaza who are in harm's way in the midst of the fog of war through no fault of their own. that's the approach that the biden administration has taken and that's the approach that i strongly support. >> she condemned the fact that leaders in both parties -- at the march for israel. you have any response to that? >> i was on the stage with leader chuck schumer, speaker mike johnson and senator joni ernst and i have no idea what she's talking about. last question, last two questions. >> clarifying in ukraine in

israel is sounds like you are working with the senate to pass something to send over. have you spoken with speaker johnson about the possibility of passing something in the house? it sounded like he was eyeing something that would begin in the lower chamber in the second part of that question is that something that would get passed by the end of the year or is that something that will get kicked to ser? >> there's nothing that will happen in the house of representatives in a partisan fashion that has any shot of becoming law. to the extent that house republicans are interested in addressing issues relative to america's national security and strengthening the situation at the border, my suggestion would be show a willingness to support

president biden's funding request to enhance the situation at the border, higher more judges to process the asylum applications and do other things that are designed to change the situation on the ground. house republicans have instead continued to simply show a willingness to try to make a political issue out of the border and the company that with an unwillingness to find common ground to actually solve the challenges they say exist and need to be addressed. last question. >> will they get it done by the end of the year? >> there is no circumstance where we should leave congress this year without making sure that we have provided funding for ukraine, funding for israel,

funding for humanitarian assistance, palestinian civilians who are in harm's way and meeting the national security needs of americans. >> speaker johnson you have this relationship with former speaker mccarthy. have you've been able to strike up much of a relationship with him and house that going? >> we have had a very positive communicative open and honest and candid relationship over the last few weeks and i think that will continue. [inaudible] >> good luck. [laughter] happy thanksgiving everybody. [inaudible conversations]

vote:

is

[inaudible conversations] >> the senate foreign relations committee will come to order. this hearing of the senate foreign relations committee, the subject is the ai revolution and i look forward to our testimony from our witnesses. as i think most members know our

leadership including senator young have been busy setting up a college for us to learn ai. we are getting continuing senate credit for our attendance at the ai conference. thank you senator young leadership and putting that together. this is just another opportunity for the role that the foreign relations committee will play in regards to what is our preferred policies as it relates to ai. the ai revolution is going to change economics. it's going to change societies, it's going to change the entire world. that means it's also going to change the way we do diplomacy. advanced ai models are 5 billion times more powerful than just a decade ago. the kind of technology growth is unlike anything that was invented and we are just in the

early stages of ai revolution. it has the potential to usher and unpredictable complicated challenges like empowering digital authoritarianism were spreading bias and disinformation or locking us into a spiraling ai varies against our adversaries. at the same time ai revolution will bring about positive possibilities and. predicting the outbreak of war, proving harvest to solve food security, curing deadly diseases, unlocking green energy. i want to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today. i know you and your team faced challenges. preparing the world to responsibly harness and deploy ai is difficult. repairing the department state for the future won't be easy either. i want to thank you for the accomplishments you have advanced so far and for your rogue efforts that you are engaging in. your dedication and commitment in serving our nation is

appreciated. your teams include some of the sharpest minds in our government. that is what i want to challenge you even more. much of the discussion around ai is centered around the military. making money and making war is too narrow of an approach to the ai revolution. we need to proceed with an ai agenda that's wrapped in american values. that is why think the state department is not only crucial to this effort, the state department must be a leader in global ai governing efforts. the state department has valuable data and the data has not only -- always been well organized. this includes well-timed -- real-time information from stations around the world and voting records and includes environmental and economic trends. this is highly valuable information. we know how much we are trying to gather information today and how valuable that is for the

private-sector. the state needs to unlock insights from this novel data and you have the workforce to do just that. the department has concentrated on public service to advance beyond foreign policy. your data science experts are going to be vital in this effort. our diplomats also must be involved as the manager ai ai competition within nations like china and russia. we will take on complex and multifaceted problems. they know how to balance in peak competing ideas in making policy and most importantly american diplomats know how to drive an agenda based on american values, values that need to be part of the ai revolution values that protect people's privacy values that lead to democratic elections respect for human rights and peace and security for people around the world. if we are going to lead on global ai governance we are going to avoid dangerous ai arms

races and harness ai to improve the lives of people the state department must he and the lead. this cannot be left to generals without diplomats but i believe congress and this committee in particular must play a central role in guiding america's ai efforts. i hope you will share your thoughts on how you think congress can accomplish that. now i recognize their distinguished ranking member senator risch. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. the ongoing wars in europe and the middle east are reminders of the threats and instability that define the era of strategic competition in which we live. amidst the images of chaos and destruction splashed across the headlines yet another competition is arising. new advances in ai will transform the way we live, do business and interact with the world. these advances also have significant implications for our foreign policy and importantly

national security. the united states and our allies will develop the transformational technologies and the standards that govern them. that will shape the future. if harnessed appropriately ai driven algorithms can provide the state department is real-time data. this includes everything from how effective policies are different parts of the world to which i.t. vulnerabilities are most likely to be exploited by an adversary to which oversees staffing models are most efficient and effective in meeting the department's needs but we must also prepare for the way their adversaries like russia iran and particularly china are trying to use ai. ai power cyberattacks could exploit our identities. certain segments of the public to confuse distractor paralyzed

the decision-making practice. ai could give our adversaries decisive advantage in targeting u.s. forces in striking key points. since ai machine learning are relying on accurate data are adversaries could manipulate or corrupt publicly available databases to ensure predictive models for analytics used by the u.s. government to work properly during a crisis. the opportunities and the threats posed by ai driven technologies of the state department should focus on two aims and i hope our witnesses will be able to talk more about those today. first we need to work with our allies to set the standard that will govern how ai is used around the world. we need to collaborate or researching key areas and identify specific national security sensitive technologies that adversaries like china will try to steal or copy and thereafter developed tougher

standards to -- tougher safeguards hazardous issues. ambassador digital policy which elite in part to spearhead this type of engagement. i look forward to hearing more from you about the work you are doing in this area and i'd also like to hear your insights on how ai could transform cyber threat landscape and what you are doing about that. second we need a workforce that not only understand how data and ai and machine learning learning works but also how to integrate these tools into their daily work. i am pleased to see the department began to her soon added driven approach to diplomacy because it has the potential to improve our foreign policy. using all the information available to make national security decisions it's a crucial part in getting to the right answer. data-driven diplomacy also helps counter act -- within the department which limits options

and critical thinking. data-driven diplomacy can't just be a talking point for the department has two truly commit to immigrating data into the policymaking process and changing course if necessary when it receives objective feedback whether policy or procedure simply isn't working. the state department center for data analytics established better analysis and expertise into foreign-policy decision-making and to develop a workforce with the skills needed. i look forward to hearing more about the progress at the center for analytics has made an expanded data access and utilization throughout the department. any insights you have on the challenges and obstacles that remain would be greatly appreciated. thank you you. >> thank you senator risch. the cases are opening statements are comparable and similar so thank you very much for your leadership and i look forward to working with you.

say thank you. >> i'm suggesting we might want to combine some of our staff -- i'm just saying that. but it's always interesting to hear an opening statement for my colleague. we have have two distinguishes the witnesses they ambassador thicket inductor gravis. your full statements will be made part of the record. he would ask that you received in five minutes and we have time for members to ask questions and to have a discussion so first let me introduce ambassador pick who leads the state department's bureau of cyberspace and digital policy is the inaugural abbasid are at large. he has taken the reins at a critical moment for strengthening u.s. diplomatic efforts on cyber and digital issues particularly the rapid development of ai technologies. prior to his leadership of the cbp bureau ambassador thicke had an extensive credit

private-sector is technology executive and entrepreneur and also served as a marine corp imagery and an officer including combat tours in afghanistan and iraq. we thank you for your service to our country in so many different ways. the department chief data officer since december 2020 and recently selected service departments in our group chief artificial intelligence officer in a dual headed capacity. this comes at a critical moment is the executive branch agencies reacted development and deployment of artificial intelligence and other data and analytical tools prepared to his leadership at the department of the center for analytics dr. graviss 13 years leadership positions at the department home security as well as the private-sector and holds a master's degree in mechanical engineer from texas a&m ended doctorate in systems engineering

from george washington university. we'll start with ambassador ficke. good morning chairman carton to say which measure the committee on the part -- him to have the department is dave thank you dave thank you for the appended speaking more broadly thank you for your support over the 14 months i've been in this new role. i'm pleased to provide you today with an update on her work in the service of united states international technology policy priorities and will speak specifically to our efforts to strengthen u.s. global leadership and unlock the potential of ai while addressing its challenges. at the state department i oversee the organizations that coordinate the departments work on cyber space, digital policy and emerging technologies and their two of them. the bureau of cyberspace and digital policy and also the office of the special envoy for critical and merging tech. building on years of bipartisan work secretary of state blinken

establish these organizations in partnership with congress as part of a conference of effort to modernize american diplomacy and make technology central to u.s. foreign policy. he gave us a clear mission to shape the terms of the technology future and to expand america's industrial and integration strategies into the international round. together the cbp and stec with her interagency partners were to advance u.s. global readership on topics such as trust and technologies and digital infrastructure dance wireless networks quantum computing biotechnology, cloud service for data centers under siege cable communications systems ai. we worked in the cybersecurity capacity to strengthen international technical standards to advance global cyber's stability and direct in cyberspace and family reduced technology to protect and promote human rights. an important distinction between

my work and the work of my colleague who is with me today doctors graviss i focus on leading technology with external national audiences club dr. graviss's work is on ai within the department. after couple of combat tours in the marines i do believe fundamentally responsible technology innovation is increasingly a foundational source of our geopolitical power. over the past year i've seen first-hand how these technologies are transforming every aspect of our societies from how we work to help you learn and how we communicate and are transforming every aspect of our foreign policy. many traditional measures of national strength such as gdp or military capacity are increasingly downstream of the nation's ability to innovate in key technology areas. put simply geopolitical

competition terms tech is increasing. it's revolutionary, accelerating in the united states must engage boldly on the half our values and interests. as the president recently said we stand at an inflection point in history. nowhere is that more evident than with ai. the decisions we make today about how we shape the parameters around ai will define the world in so many ways for decades to come. it's a responsibility we must assume together with their private-sector civil society and our international partners. american companies lead the world in ai innovation and the united states is increasingly strong momentum domestically to lead in ai governance. the recent executive order on eight ai directs the most significant action of any government anywhere in the world has ever taken on ai safety security and trust and it's the natural next step after having secured the voluntary

commitments that were great to live meeting with ai companies in the presence commitment to working with congress to craft bipartisan legislation to establish an enduring domestic policy framework. at the same time we work internationally with their closest partners to advance our shared views on ai policy. the g7 with strong u.s. leadership and engagement just released an international code of conduct for ai developers which draws heavily from voluntary commitment. i attended the uk's safety summit two weeks ago hallowed ground of the history technology and national security and we continue to work to advance shared approaches to ai through mechanisms including the trade and technology council for countries around the world realized that ai is a foundational technology driving advances that can help solve some of her most pressing shared challenges in science and energy and agriculture and education.

my team chose to engage the world in these conversations to synchronized multi-stakeholder approaches on governance and to harness the benefits of ai alleviates risk and to do so while always ensuring our innovation ecosystem remains ours. we do this in three oriented principals in mind. first is essential for united states to leave with an affirmative vision of the role of technology in our shared future pretty well even text power to accelerate and salt major global challenges and support future prosperity for their permanent vision reflected in both their engagement but also our foreign assistance through programs such as ai connect and other recently programs delivered to ai to help address poverty and energy needs and improve public health. by committing resources these programs are able to secure following vestments and the private-sector that leverage our commitment of $15 million, to

leverage that commitment several times over to accelerate progress on sustainable development goals when using ai. the u.s. is the world leader in innovation and if we don't champion the benefits of technology, who will? second we know we must do this work in partnership with others. international partnerships on everything from r&d investment to standard harmonization of regulatory interoperability and policy underpinnings that are necessary to seize the moment. no one country regardless of how big or powerful and no one company garth is of how dance. over the past year the state department has been engaged constantly with their allies and our partners with multilateral venues like the g7 figi 20 the oecd united nations to achieve tangible commitments on the responsible development deployment and use of ai and to

the executive order the u.s. is leading by example. we are providing a model for responsible use of this critical technology and our government to our government is committed to increasing participation in ai voluntary commitments from leading companies both in the united states and around the world. third, we recognize all of this is happening while a determined and well-resourced set of adversaries than competitors tirelessly advance a very different view of technology's role in our future. they are aggressively trying to reshape international rules-based order and are investing heavily in the world be prioritizes authoritarian tactics over democratic governance. technology governance specifically a covenant is when the geopolitical -- we need to lead international conversation to shape the global technology landscape of the future so ai advances democratic values and human rights protects her safety and security and supports our

prosperity. when the united states pulls back our adversaries pullback. technology with global impact requires global action and the state department is delivering on the important work of technology diplomacy of the american people. thank you get for the opportunity to join me today and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. doctors graviss. chairman card ranking member rich and distinguished members of the committee think you've for this opportunity. i like to echo ambassador fick's message that we want to understand the role of the artificial intelligence at the department in our global efforts. serving as the first chief data ai officer formerly launch in 2020 and evading pilots while instilling ai use across the department. two elevator collected data and

add proficiency are add proficiency are deep team of scientists and engineers and analysts partner closely with dozens bureaus and offices across the department. her work delivers on the president's executive order on safe secure interest with the ai which emphasizes the transformative potential of ai government. just last week the secretary released the department's first-ever enterprise ai strategy. the this strategy will provide her world-class diplomatic corps with ai governance and analytics training and infrastructure to prepare them both for enduring and emerging thing policies challenges. in as ambassador fick noted our technology is or we set a compelling example for let that affect a share for important sites from her journey thus far. first we see them combing command and data and ai services across the department. over the past 33 years the center for analytics has received over 350 project

projects from all quarters the department but some of them have foreign-policy objectives while other brings about operational efficiencies. upon the tone for their positioning data cited skills as close to the mission is possible for their efforts range from hiring data scientists offering extensive ai related training for department employees at all levels. third we are elevating her diplomacy enhancing operational efficiencies. for simple by including data scientists the u.s. delegation had access to real-time modeling on other countries proposed policy changes which elevate our country's negotiation position. as an example of her partner bureau of passion plays computer deficient to document war crimes in ukraine using satellite imagery. in another area the bureau of international organization affairs employs ai to better strategize their approach for the united nations in

elections -- resolutions. these examples show how data ai have diplomatic capabilities and we use it as a force multiplier to increase efficiencies. an example is the statutorily required declassification process. traditionally a resource intensive manual test the declassification process is now accelerated by machine learning achieving over 97% at present reducing human effort by 60%. last but not least our ai advancements must rest on a firm foundation of sound and responsible policy and governance. to achieve this we formulated the department's first ai policy update their ai inventory and launched in ai tool. it also pointed responsible ai officials initiated ai committee to focus on upholding ai principals and federal guidance. his ai continues to involve -- evolve our commitment to

responsible use remains unwavering. as we promote it vision for department must and will lead by example. secretary blinken beliefs believes her workforce is more equipped to lead globally when provided with timely relevant data. ai enhances the data's power mocking her workforce potential. we are committed to harnessing ai potential is committed to doing it in a manner that is safe secure and trustworthy. thank you for your tension and i'm here to address your questions and collaborate on responsible ai at the state department. >> thank you again both of you for your testimony. we'll go through five minute rounds. mr. ambassador u. pointed out that america's leader in innovation and technology and except that but i don't want to be naïve about it. doctors graviss you are talking about how you are implemented in our own use in our department. we have seen this before when we have lead in technology development only to see the

autocratic regime not playing by the single so we do and try to steal our information and although we will perceive on cyber in the ai and our values are adversaries do not share that commitment to our values. so there are lots of tools in our toolkit to executive orders that you have party mentioned and executive orders and treaties. i am just interested in learning by what we do and that works up to a point. we know the prc is not going to be as nice as we are in the protocols and adhering to standards. so where do we go as far as establishing international guardrails? are we looking at just america leading to example or are we looking at more enforceable ways

to establish international guardrails? >> thank you senator. let me share a perspective on that and try to highlight a handful of things. first, we started with the voluntary commitments for two reasons. first voluntary by definition does not constrain innovation and again we are in a race with their adversaries and we cannot afford to hamstring our innovative competitive advantage. voluntary equals innovation. voluntary also equal speed. voluntary commitments are not intended to be the last step in our domestic or international governing structure. they do a couple of things. they allow us to build international consensus around a fairly robust set of commitments on ai safety, security and

trust. safety means ensuring that the models don't return most dangerous result. security means ensuring that cybersecurity another integrity models themselves and trust means helping to ensure the users, the consumer can distinguish between ai generated content and not ai generated content. and that's fine for our allies that we have a relationship with but the autocratic competitors we have rented the brc or brush or whether it be north korea, they are not following those guidelines. what protections are you negotiating that will provide either incentives or disincentives for those who want to violate the international protocols? >> go get the three things. first when you are running a race sometimes it's important to simply run faster than your competitor so that their innovation prioritization.

so speed is one answer to your question. the second is trying to constrain adversaries who have a wildly different view of the role of technology in our future by mechanisms like export controls on her most advance semi-conductors. that is faced small yard, high fence approach in order to help keep the most capable enabling technology of ai out at the hands of our adversaries and then third a robust global engagement to shape the norms of responsible state behavior in these critical technology areas so that our adversaries can either abide by those norms or put themselves and their behavior outside of the norms. we are under no naïve thought that our adversaries will comply. building a broad coalition, setting normative examples of these pets are adversaries outside of that framework so then we have legitimacy of the moral authority.

>> i would just point out we have gone through a series of congressional actions, encouraging administration sometimes requiring administrations to take affirmative action against employers internationally. the call them sanctions and other issues. that is pretty direct when we are dealing with specific actions that are being taken, kinetic actions. it may not be as easy to determine with the use of ai tools. if an adversary is not identifying the source or using it for disinformation that undermines america's national security we are going to happen have more direction on how we can assist or we may to try to do that on our own. any help that you can give us as to how america cannot only lead in the race, blunt to be first in the race but to prevent

adversaries from taking us in the wrong direction are stealing our information. >> without lemahieu turn it over to senator risch. >> thank you mr. chairman. i'm going to follow along the same lines as the chairman. if you think back some decades ago some congressional committee was holding a hearing just like this saying what are we going to do about this new thing called the internet? how were we going to police it? because it has tremendous possibility. there is an evilness that can arise from use of it etc.. frankly after listening to you i suspect probably we are in no different position here. that is whenever you talk about voluntary anybody here think that china or russia are going to voluntarily comply with any international mormons when they think it's in their best

interest to do otherwise? the meaning of a country like russia they can even obey the simplest mandate of the united nations, not to abuse one of your neighbors. in china look at what they do with international norms come international norms as the call them on technology and patent protection of those kinds of things. it's just stunning that they have no boundaries. it's just the wild west out there and so i guess ambassador and doctors graviss if you would comment for a minute on a rewrite that we are probably barking up the wrong tree in talking an esoteric terms about voluntariness in goodness? are we in the same place as we have found ourselves with the internet?

>> thank senator one point of clerk occasion voluntary commitments are voluntary and the part of the companies of these are the leading ai developers of the world subscribing to these commitments in committing their companies to the responsible development of ai. >> i missing that will flow over. >> we want businesses around the world to support the commitments and then we want to commitments to become the basis of codes and frameworks for governance. please understand we are not naïve about whether adversaries will voluntarily comply. i think we need to confront the reality in the software era which is controlling access to these technologies is somewhere between very difficult and impossible. in an isolated and impoverished north korea under strong sanctions could develop nuclear weapons i would suggest the

development of sophisticated software capabilities are a lot easier than that. unfortunately i do come back to our greatest source of strength being maintaining our advantage stewarding our innovation and putting export controls and sanctions in place on adversaries where we can be effective in trying to shape the global normative framework governing these technologies. >> appreciated. [inaudible] >> i can speak to what we are doing the state department. focusing on internal. just to point out and we have the ability to set policies and to set policies quickly within the department and that's the first element so we authority established in ai policy. we have the responsible ai official whose job is to be

laser focused on ethical responsible use of ai. she has an evaluation team she has these capabilities on her team to provide independent assessment an independent evaluation's of ai to be on reporting the department. we have a policy lens and then we also have that independent look that we are focused on. we balance that with opportunities. there is a lot of repetitive work being done all over the world by our diplomats. we have the move swiftly and we had to move smartly. >> thank you. i guess it's going to be interesting to see how this develops because i suspect when the internet started probably people were a lot more optimistic that there was going to be compliant and it wouldn't have sideburns intentionally interfering with other people's elections as they do today. will be interesting to see how

this develops. unfortunately like i said you can't get countries to behave themselves in public how are you going to get them to behave themselves in the laboratory with the door closed and locked and nobody looking? you'll be interesting to see how that develops and i have no doubt that you will follow it closely. thank you mr. chair. >> thank you senator risch. let me just caution we will be patient to wait for your recommendations as to how we can protect those that are not following guardrails for the next person i'm going to call on if it wasn't for his action in regards to iran and we may be still be waiting for some executive actions. senator menendez. >> thank you chairman for president biden and chinese president xi jinping were set to meet at the apec summit to discuss a number of issues including the role of artificial intelligence. when i think about this topic i worry that some country would

give the decision as to whether or not to launch a nuclear weapon to artificial intelligence may be the most astute way to make a calculus and for me that would be alarming. there've been press reports that the united states in and the prc will pledge to limit the use of ai nuclear weapons systems. ambassador fick can you share with us why an agreement on these issues with a country like china is significant and this is a model that the administration plans to expand to other willing country's? >> thank you senator. i am serving at the state department in part because of my formative experience in the rain to my 20s which left me with the conviction that diplomacy is a must always be the nation's tool of first resort.

so i welcome the conversation between presence of biden and xi and i welcome communication between us and all countries at all times. that does not mean we agree. it does not equal collaboration. communication in and of itself is valuable and better than the alternative. with respect to the military uses of ai i would point to the political declaration for the responsible use of ai, a military focused framework of principals that respected countries have subscribed to. it's a good example of the kinds of behaviors that we want to become the norm. again we are under no illusion that our adversaries will abide by those norms in any case but i think the channel of communication itself is valuable. >> i agree with you totally. i've been advocating for that.

we have lines of communication project lead for non-conflict issues in china. my question goes to whether do we want to extend an understanding and an agreement as to how or whether or not ai should be used at all particularly in terms of launches as well as how do we ensure with china growing their nuclear capabilities, how do we ensure it even if the country signs onto that happy thought about the import mechanism's? >> one of the foundational principals of the political declaration is a belief that when we are talking about lethal systems of any kind we can't have ai enabled lethal systems. and your question about the inspection mechanism in the enforcement mechanism is exactly the right one.

i would refer to my colleagues elsewhere in the department that have peace -- that piece. >> china has introduced some of the earliest and detailed regulations governing artificial intelligence over the last two years. arronte allies including european union have governed the proliferation of ai and while i applaud these engagements on global ai governance more must be done in this area strategic competition if we are to keep up with trying to regulate ai and provide an ultimate vision for ai that embraces human rights privacy and what we hold so dear. what are some of the troubling implications and narratives if our allies failed to develop a consensus around regulating ai and we allow china to pioneer the rules of ai globally? >> i would make two points they are in response to your question senator. first our foreign policy in any

area will rarely be any stronger than dirt domestic policy in that area. american foreign policy in the foreign policy of any transparent democratic society is a reflection of what we do at home. we do need to get her our own house in order with respect to the regulation and governance of these emerging technologies so that we are presenting on the world world stage a responsible framework for governance that has legitimacy and moral authority. second, there's no room here for one of the concepts of even our closest european allies that the key which is digital sovereignty. i would argue we need to think about digital solidarity. we had to think about close collaboration with our closest allies and partners to coordinate r&d investment and to coordinate regulatory interoperability. companies want large harmonize markets. we need the combined integrated efforts of our best universities and their students and workers.

it points to the importance of our domestic regulatory regime and it also points to the importance of our allies and partnerships in order to both shape the international normative environment and present the strongest unified front against the prc model. >> mr. chairman i'm going to submit a question for the record since my time has expired. i'd like your response to it. this is a 10th after he -- anniversary of the plaza collapsed in bangladesh that took the lives of 1000 workers in ai industry. workers are being exploited going through the repetitive process of trying to determine what is the a smile and what is up round to the algorithms and i would like to see us lead in this regard to make sure we don't have worker exploitation globally in the development of

ai and i'd like to see what the department is doing about that. thank you chair. >> i'd be interested in that an answer also. we need -- we need to lead buyer values. senator ricketts. >> thank you mr. chair and think it are witnesses. ambassador fick i want to build on what senator menendez was talking about. we talk about the different sources of regulatory regimes that different countries around the world are trying to establish and we talked about the prc. we talked about what they have done with regard to executive order in the voluntary guidelines you talk about and the european union where they have been working on their own legislation to close the ai act a couple of years ago and it involves a risk-based approach but as you know the european union will often come up with the standards and companies will adopt those further rule project to standardize their products and make it easier to have

access to both the market in europe and around the world. if you have understand legislation is coming to its final phases. we haven't figured out the generative ai part of it. assuming that gets past companies will be forced to make a decision of creating different algorithms that don't allow access to key data and then having to deal the difficulties of that as well. my question gets to if we have these eu rated tory constraints or allies are moving forward on this legislation you've been critical of the legislation. what if the eu passes their ai act and what effect will it have on our allies and could this potentially put a damper on the innovation you talk about this so important among u.s. companies? >> thank you senator. yes they've been in regular dialogue with their eu counterparts with member states

and the european commission on the substance of ai. i would make three points on this. the first is speed. as you point out the actions drafted before it was a released a year ago and so in some sense it's already been overtaken which points to -- >> it's obsolete. >> it's a structural challenge with that rated tory approach. as currently drafted with law enforcement cooperation between united states and eu things like the use of facial recognition technology at the borders or by law enforcement and third we hear repeatedly from companies and innovators not only in the united states but also europe that it's not adequately protected that ended to her them from building ai business and year.

back to the point on solidarity the feature that i think we think positions us most strongly for competition with their adversaries is one where we have technology businesses being built not only the united states but also with our closest and respected allies and partners. >> you talk about how we want to work with our allies in europe and yet they are pushing forward with this frankly obsolete now, right, legislation. what is the state department doing to get them to maybe slow this down to be able to work with those more carefully and that regime were talking about or we can be on the same team with regard to pushing back against the peoples republic of china and not create an obstacle in working together to oppose it quick. >> we are pushing in every form on this multiple lateral and by larry for the next two weeks

meeting with the communications commissioner. most of her eu counterparts were there last week i was in france with president present macron himself and the french minister making these cases that the continental europe in a lot of ways regulated itself out of the cloud service era of technology. it's no accident the five largest businesses are here in the united states. it would be to our mutual detriment if the eu were to regulate its way out of the ai era of technology. we are pushing on this and other reforms. >> how -- what is a uk policy going to be and where are they going? do they lean toward the european model or our model? >> leaning strongly toward our model. we and our british allies are very close on this.

they intend to set themselves up as an ai superpower in their words which we view as much to our benefit as well. >> thank you very much. >> senator shaheen. >> think thank you both for being here. ambassador fick in your opening statement you mentioned a multilateral organization that you are looking at. you didn't mention nato and while i recognize that nato is not technically part of the state department in the purview of the state department certainly what they do is very important so what are you looking at with respect to nato? >> senator shaheen i joke with my wife sometimes that she should have an apartment in brussels because i met nato summit. armed passenger to nato is a deer friend and we collaborate very closely on these topics.

i think nato is a terrific example of what secretary blinken talks about is variable geometry and making sure our most important alliances historically are fit for purpose in the technology age. a really key element of our diplomacy with nato and in europe has been ensuring that the alliance is equipped on all of these technology topics. cybersecurity, at the summit in july we saw a robust deliverance of the virtual core capability of revitalization of the nato cyberdefense pledge. we have been working with allies across the alliance to make sure our own architecture and infrastructure is secure and trusted so that we share information and intelligence freely across the alliance. that was not an error of omission and not in mentioning nato in my comments.

in technology the nato alliance is one of our leading partners globally. >> thank you. as everybody has talked about so far ai has tremendous potential yet so many areas that can perpetuate existing biases. how does the department look at how we ensure those inequities are part of whatever is done through ai particularly with respect to gender and with respect to the whole range of ethnic racial differences that we want to respect? >> thank you center for the question. i will make if you points here. one of starts with training, leveling up diversity when it comes to ai and algorithms

across the department to understand this is a possibility. the second is using good data. good ai thrives on good data painted the day so the focus is how do we bring this kind of technology into our department in a secure infrastructure and apply this technology on data that we manage and data where we can ensure the quality. that's a second in the third is to do with our partnership with industry which is focused on the pier kermanet process and how we ensure software per kermanet includes -- procurement includes the right policies and requirements to make sure we are providing technology as you mentioned. >> i want to be a little bit more parochial now. the number one constituent issue we hear from people are visas passports challenges with their

immigration system. and the state department particularly during covid and had some real issues in countries around the world in terms of processing those kinds of issues. tell me how ai is going to help us make sure we can process those kind of constituent concerns faster so that we can provide service to people who need it? >> the organization isn't using artificial intelligence at this time. >> i know they are in new hampshire but a least one of them is that we are very aware of that. >> we will make that first. more broadly we see this as a real opportunity to reduce the type of repetitive roadwork that happens across the department both domestically and overseas. we are taking a pilot centered

approach to starting small learning a lot in scaling with real success in that approach. >> and so assuming you continue to see success what do you need in order to ramp that up? do you need resources, do you need more people? do you need the ip and to share those with our embassies around the world? >> i'm an engineer so what does an can increase the output. in my mind resources in terms of infrastructure and in terms of personnel people without the actual technology will be able to employ it won't get far without the skilled workforce that we are aggressively trying to bring into the federal employment within the state department. >> thank you in thanking

mr. chairman. >> i assure you senators shaheen has the support of every member of this committee on streamlining it and making it more timely. it would make our lives easier. senator grassley. >> thank special chairman. the principle and number of teachers who are here on the southside elementary school tell wyoming they are a blue ribbon school and they are only two in the state of wyoming and they are here for the national celebration of their achievements in this tested it with ai technology. whoever wants to answer. reports indicate that tik tok is harvesting vast amounts of data on millions of users in the united states many of whom are students. it's owned by a company based in beijing. although tik tok executives denied many experts believe the chinese government has access to tik tok's american user data so the question is do you believe that tik tok is using data to

feed chinese artificial intelligence and machine learning algorithms and what are the implications for us at home and for students all around the country? >> thank you center. a couple of points on that. i would point out the administration has enacted a ban on the installation of tik tok on federal devices which should speak to our perspective on the risk involved and the second observation i am probably the least popular father and my daughter's middle school because of my personal views on this point. my request to you would be that we try to speak with one voice as a country and we adopted position by a democratic process that acknowledges the use. >> anything you'd like to add? >> thank you senator. i would say we are worried about our data two.

at the state department how do we ensure that our employees are not letting sensitive information out of the web. we have existing policies in place that need to be reinforced and training us to go along with that. we need to move aggressively to onboard this technology into the infrastructure that we micromanage that we have tight security controls on and we are constantly monitoring. >> ambassador fick china -- steal valuable american intellectual property and the impact on the economy is massive. the chinese communist party clearly attempting to surpass america's military strength in international influence. a senior fbi official said nation-state adversaries particularly china poses a significant threat to american companies and national security

by stealing our ai technologies and data to advance their own ai programs to enable foreign influence campaigns. how do you express china's ever serial governments united states? >> senator is certainly greater that assessment on intellectual property theft by the prc is stripped critical competitive advantage under the u.s. economy for several decades now. our response to that or uneven response to that has put us in a deterrent hole and there's a very real threat to the security of our most advanced ai systems going forward. it's why one of the pillars of voluntary commitment is the security pillar which is standard around cybersecurity, g results for most advanced models and a very real focus by the

government and these companies on safeguarding that aspect. >> the final question since senator risch started by talking about the leadership in the united states when it comes to the internet years ago we lead in the sector because we chose to take a light-headed regulatory approach for the number of us in the senate have met with discussions on ai with zuckerberg's and a number of the leaders and technology there. do you believe light-headed rated torres structure or a heavy headed infrastructure is best? >> senator again in this job for your but i a dozen years before that building a software business and i believe very strongly in the power of our innovation economy as their greatest source of national strength. a semi opening statements many traditional measures of strength like military capacity earns

creasing lead down the street of our ability to implement these technologies but i think there's a role for appropriate -- and our northstar must be maintaining the health of that innovation economy. >> thank you. >> senator barrasso thank you for bringing your students here today. students should do the senator barrasso is one of our leaders the united states senate but his role on the senate foreign relations committee is an viable and he's a great member committee. as dr. graviss said we are in the state department for ai and applications will be given out shortly. thank you for being here we appreciate it very much. senator van hollen. >> thank you mr. chairman thank both of you for your testimony and we have covered a lot of ground today and questions i was going to ask so i want to look at a couple of principals and ambassador fick you've outlined not just this morning. earlier which is part of our

overall digital and data strategy is to be to promote american innovation, support american values including promoting human rights. do you agree? >> yes. >> and you would agree i think authoritarian regimes fear the open flow of information and data and try to put up walls and barriers. >> i agree. >> would you agree that one of the mechanisms they use to do this to try to promote data localization requirements from around the world so those governments can sometimes spy on people and look for dissenters. >> we see an increasing balkanization. >> here's my question because we have a executive branch. were you consulted when the ustr

decided to back away from the e-commerce principals at the wto? where you consulted as part of that decision? >> i read about the decision senator. >> and i know you're earlier testimony when the things that struck me in your nomination was that you are a straight shooter. would you agree that decision undermines the principals that you and i just discussed in an open internet and not allowing authoritarian regimes to more easily spy and crackdown on dissent? >> we abdicate in every forum for the benefits of the internet that is free and open and interoperable and reliable and secure and that includes the free flow of data. i appreciate that and i understand you are here not just

as the state department representative. part of the administration. i appreciate that because i can tell you in my view with the ustr did in the wg was to total undermine the principals that we just talked about. the free flow of information, stepping back from our resistance to globalization which empowers authoritarian regimes as well as our efforts to prevent force tech. those are principals we have advocated for and it's my belief when we back away from that we lose our credibility around the world not just on these issues but the issues of you two gentlemen have to work on every day. mr. chairman of that to submit for the record a letter to president biden on this issue. >> without objection. >> thank you. on the issue of ai one of the big issues and i think it's been

discussed a little. already this morning, the issue of international standard and their many but they are a number of key ones. how would you let thy weight the current u.s. presence, participation influence in those committees and they'll start with ambassador fick. >> may ask for clarification which committees senator? >> there's international standards committee and there's one on electrical standards. >> okay, i understand. standards harmonization is one of the foundational pieces of building an innovation ecosystem across national boundaries that can bring to bear shared r&d and shared information more than the

companies of any one business so we are strongly engaged in those international standards setting bodies to help ensure that the standards are aligned with our values and promote shared prosperity and that looking ahead now to the ai era that we adopt a similar legitimate bradley consensus-based approach to harmonizing the standards. >> i appreciated and i think the major ones are iso and i.t. but there may be others. as you know the prc is actively engaged in trying to increase the presence and participation. it's been one of america's strength and i know you are both committed to doing that. i don't know if you have anything to add to that? >> happy to a couple of think senator but first within the federal government the national

institute of standards and technology setting guardrails or ground what is expected to be followed across federal government and on the cybersecurity site infrastructure security agency with dhs and at the state department ai relies on good days and we have used good data standards for the last several years. it's necessary and i think it's great that you are talking about that. also i will point out the international organization -- organizational affairs bureau with the state department has their own chief officer but it's part of a program that we have been leading the place different leaders. trying to get america's in -- americans and the right committees who are setting the standards and that's important too. it's a great example of how we apply technology end up playa ai in that department that impact

on the global stage diplomats. >> thank you. >> i just want to comment briefly and introduced senator kaine and make it clear ambassador we strongly support you doing dealing with these issues in their questions are seeing how we can make sure you have the resources and the tools and sometimes the direction for diplomacy to be successful. we are very fortunate on this committee to have our own ambassador to the department of defense. let me explain that. senator kaine served in the armed services committee so we have a representative with d.o.t. to promote diplomacy. >> mr. chairman you anticipated my money questioning. what i want to talk about the something that is at the intersection of the foreign relation jurisdiction in the armed services jurisdiction and that's the partnership. president biden announced the partnership with the australian

and uk a couple of years back. it has been flushed out. last summer the administration can trust for legislation to move the partnership for it. thought it would be in the armed services committee but but this comes under the foreign relations committee and he said okogie adorn both. senator cardis thank you do this for the partnership has two pillars for the first pillar is the construction over. mcavoy five years of nuclear subs that would be australian operated and eventually australian built to provide additional stability and indo pacific and for my colleagues i was at a navy funded workforce training school in danville, virginia on monday that the navy has stood up to build an industrial base. 60 students go through five different curriculum areas for an eight week program and students, multiple students in

each of the five programs were from australia so not only from all over united states. training to be part of the industrial base and aussie sailors are part of the nuclear power school that the navy operates in south caroline appeared even though the first subs are going to be purchased until the 2030s are built until the 2040s we are integrating. the second piece is pillar which is innovative technologies quantum undersea capabilities but also ai. i'd like to ask your own impressions about what we can do together with australia and the uk in a pillars space to maximize the synergies of us working together on ai capacity that can help us in the defense. >> thank you senator. happy to address that. i think my overarching view here is maybe reflected in the way

senator blinken talked about alliances and partnerships that are fit for purpose to the geometry to partnerships and pulling off the right partnerships on the right for the right time to accomplish our highest priorities. this is a good example. specifically in the innovative technology pillar for august a point to one thing that we announce announced just if you weeks ago. during the australian prime minister to visit. i've been working closely with ambassador kennedy on this for months and that is partnership undersea cables, connecting pacific island countries and what's interesting here, i wish senator shaheen were still here because one of the world's leading manufacturers of undersea cables is in new hampshire so we have a national champion in the united states in this regard and we have an opportunity now to lay trusted cables to connect australia and the united states but also to link together other key

strategic geographies in the pacific and do it in a way that is part of a vertically integrated technology. let me explain for a moment what i mean. .. a contingency scenario. but then put top notch cutting edge cybersecurity on top of the data centers. a layered approach of trusted cables, trusted data centers and event cybersecurity. that is what we are in the early stages of doing in partnership with australia and others in the region. i think it is really exciting as a template which ought to be able to replicate in other

geographies. my colleague asked questions earlier that led you to talk about the different approaches compared to the united states and the hope the uk would be more aligned with the u.s. in terms of ai regulation, less centralized possibly. my hope would be that as we are having the discussions with the uk we also keep australia in mind i think if are going to make the pillar successful the greatest alignment between uk and australia on things like the ai regulation will be helpful per b hope it would convince to come our way as well if you have any thoughts about the australian approach to ai regulation i would love to hear them. but at least i like to encourage we include australia in the discussions were happy with uk around alignment. parks i agree completely senator. i was at the park for the summit a couple of weeks ago.

the end of the summit wheat we releasethe communiqué austraa signatory there so think we are fully aligned. >> great. >> thank you chairman for holding this very important hearing. i think our witnesses for your service it is such an important topic we are all dealing with an different ways. i will dive right in. ambassador fick i have a number of questions for you i would ask you keep your responses as tight as possible so we can get through them. as we think about harmonizing ai policies between partners and allies can you speak to the importance of forging clear and enforceable digital trade rule? that will ensure the regular flow of data across international boundaries that may enable future ai machine learning systems. that has to entail cross privacy

protections. there is a possibility a failure to reach these sorts of rules and agreement on the rules may jeopardize ai collaboration and cooperation. ambassador, do you believe it would be to america's advantage to prioritize digital trade and our multi- lateral trade negotiations? not a trick question. >> thanks senator i was at purdue a few weeks ago in indiana. let me just say keith kroc who is a tech diplomacy at producing producemany ways my predecessorr this portfolio and put the markers down on some essential topics we tried to carry that work forward. yes in a word harmonizing data float and prioritizing digital trade and international trade agenda is an important component of american competitiveness the

21st century. >> how do we get through a series of a bilateral or multilateral negotiations that result in outcomes like the data privacy framework? there is no silver bullet here it's a lot of hard fought diplomacy bilaterally. >> i agree with you. i know others in the administration agreed that perspective as well this a trade is a vehicle for mobility, for prosperity but also for forging tighter relations among countries and regions and it's very important that everyone in the administration regarded as such. we will continue to work on the finance committee and the foreign relations committee on the topic of digital trade. ambassador, can you speak to how your bureau is approaching artificial intelligence and

converging technologies? like synthetic biology especially in gene synthesis and gene editing. you promote the responsible adoption of artificial intelligence. >> the simplest answer to that question, senator, is that we have seen the prc run what we now call the huawei playbook. it is a series of elements, ip theft, subsidies, that playbook that rough template is now being run by the prc across a whole host of emerging technologies including synthetic biology. >> thank you. as much congressional discussion around the regulation of artificial intelligence as the chairman was kind to acknowledge earlier's pretty involved in

many of those conversations. much of what we discussed is centered on whether we can use existing statutes and regulations for specific use cases in artificial intelligence. i think this is probably the approach our country will take going forward on a basis the same basis about conceptually ai regulations extends to the global harmonization of policies across countries across regions they been countless forums to discuss artificial intelligence from the g7 from the eu to the recent conclave on safety as it pertains to frontier models that was in the uk and making sense of how our country is going to approach harmonization can sometimes be complicated and

confusing. from your vantage point ambassador how is the department approaching the question of global harmonization if intention to pursue multi- lateral or instead to convene special multi- lateral convention or bilateral agreements. in any harmonization effort what role with the factors are going to play. >> thanks senator. just in the last 10 days we've seen four strands come together. we have seen ai code of conduct for developers the american executive order the communiqué and the eu ai act and try lot negotiation. we have this the overarching

next step is to try to drive these convergence in some sort of a comprehensive policy framework this going to be to the advantage of rights respecting allies and partners the u.s., the eu, the japanese, south koreans and as inclusive as possible middle ground states willing to subscribe to a rights respecting use of these technologies. >> you have not settled by way of follow-up you have not settled on a particular format? you have not identified who will sit in the individual seats around a table as you try to harmonize different policies is that accurate i'm not asking this critically. but as an important investigative matter by this committee. >> are two basic approaches we could take one approach would be to form a new t12 comic t15 an

alliance of techno- democracies if you would. that is in the press in the think tank world it's been a subject of discussion. the other approach is to use the alliances and the partnerships we have or to create new and to make sure they are fit for purpose. send machines a question about nato. my view the view of the department of the secretary's we should do the latter. i should be using organizations that exist. with overhead you should be ensuring their fit for purpose should be threaded through all of it. >> i very much hope to keep

myself and other members informed of developments as it pertains to who you will be convening, when you will be convening them i hope it's not in the very distant future that's first quarter or two of next year. and what you anticipate the agenda looking like a quick senator if i met you asked about the private sector it's important to address it. the private sector has been front and center at the voluntary credits at the white house they been involved in every multi- stakeholder in the g7, g20 they were present widely consulted on the eo. again back to the point the bulk of the innovative horsepower and are the bulk of the talent sectors the tax service we care about protecting us the private sector this only works if it's truly a multi- stakeholder process involving governments,

companies, and civil society and other organizations perfect sync ambassador, thank you chairman for your patience. >> let me again acknowledge senator young has been instrumental in bringing together the top experts basically in the world on ai and ina nonpartisan environment we n absorb and try to understand where we are today, where we are heading what are our options and our needs? thank you very much for that help appreciate very much. some i think our witnesses. let me underscore the point we recognize this is not just a governmental exercise in the private sector as well. the private sector it needs to have guard rails that needs to be protected. the global rules are incredibly important for how united states leads and establishing those global rules not only for state actors but also for private

companies. this conversation will continue. we anticipate there will be a legislative action throughout 2024 in regards to ai to try to get a handle on appropriate guardrails. and to give us the tools so we can continue to lead innovation but also in the responsible use of ai so thank you both for your contributions and we look forward to the continuation, the record will remain open until close of business on friday. if you have questions for your record we ask you would respond in a adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

here on the senate floor lawmakers hold open to block student loan cancellation and plan the boat's been going on for more than four hours now.

star just before 2:30 p.m. eastern time. the boat 49 a yes vote 258 note. the attempt to block the plan will fail since all votes have been casper salkind republican tim scott is away from the chamber today. an update on the temporary government funding passed by the house yesterday, nbc news reports the hope had been for the senate to vote today. ranking member of the armed services roger wicker's holding that out because he wants majority leader schumer to commit to a date on which the senate will process the 2024 defense program and policy bill. there is still hope the upper chamber approves a temporary fighting plan during today's session. if they are able to come to an agreement we could see three votes one on an amendment by kentucky republican rand paul that would cut 1% of discretionary spending from the bill it's about $50 billion for the final vote on the temporary funding plan would beat next that's expecting a 60 vote

threshold for passage for the bill would fund parts of the government through january 19 with additional funds with the other agencies and departments through february 2. we may also see a vote on instructing the senate negotiator on the house on the 2024 defense program and policy bill which is what senator wicker is pushing for. while this vote continues into its fourth hour we will look take a look at some of the remarks in the floor earlier today when louisiana republican jon kennedy talked about education policy and school choice. mr. president i'm going to talk for a few minutes today about elementary and secondary education. more specifically about school choice.

school choice is inextricably related, in my opinion, to social justice. let's put it another way, i just don't understand how one can be a fair-minded person and believe in social justice but not support school choice. in a congress of course we seem to face a new crisis every week mr. president. in a while we need to respond to them, i think it is important that we not lose sight of what i call the foundation of the issues but ensuring that our country is free, and democratic and inspirational for our children and our grandchildren.

one of those issues, one of the foundational issues is education. now, right now the american people are focused on the border which is it open a bleeding wound their focus on inflation for their focus on crime. their focus on turmoil abroad. i do not blame them, we need to be focus on those things. but what we focus on those things it is a fact the quality of our students elementary and secondary education has been steadily slipping. steadily slipping. and it is clarion clear unless you have been living in your parents basement it is clarion clear the status quo of education in america is not setting our kids or our country up for success.

i take no joy in saying that. but sometimes you cannot look reality in the eye and deny adm. here are a few examples of how america and louisiana's these students are falling behind the numbers of the numbers. math and reading scores among american 13 -year-olds are at their lowest level in decades. that is not my opinion that's according to the national assessment of educational progress. as you know mr. president that is a study done annually known as the nation's report card. in the nation's report card, just 35% just 35% of our proficient in math.

only 32% of american fourth grades are proficient in reading. american students are slipping globally as well. in 2008's, the world competitiveness center ranked american students first in the world. by 2023 the united states had slipped to tenth overall in a science american students ranked 11th in math american students ranked 30th. in louisiana, i regret to say mr. president, that roughly half of my students in louisiana and grades k through three are not reading at the grade level, calf. one third kids in grades three through 12 are at grade level in the four subjects the

louisiana educational assessment program, we call it leap tests. in fact we have in louisiana 24 school systems, 24 and if fewer than a quarter of our students. fewer than a quarter have proficient exam scores. now, i have said this before on the senate floor and i'm going to say it again. the american people can do extraordinary things. we can unravel the human genome. we could take a diseased human heart and replace it with a new one and make it beat. we can send a person to the moon. but we can't seem to figure out how to teach our children how to read, how to rights, and how to do math when we have 18 years to

do it. and there is no excuse. because all children can learn. now, i know it is complicated and there are a multitude of reasons while our children may be struggling. for over 15 years i've been a volunteer substitute teacher in our public schools. i went to a public school. in louisiana we need substitute so badly they will even take politicians. i tried to do it three times the sometimes more, sometimes less. i always reminded every time i substitute teach the fact that it is a much much harder today to be a teacher and when i was in a public school.

it's also much much harder today to be a kid. so i have some understanding of the challenge. the evidence is also clear now made it matters a lot worse some states did better than others we cannot keep blaming things on the pandemic it's been a few years since the schools reopened and they are nowhere near where they need to be free k to 12 education in america and louisiana was in trouble well before the pandemic and we all know that. yet leaders in many states remain hesitant.

to say the least to change anything, anything about our public school system. we've all heard the famous definition of insanity per the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get a different result it is a cliché. because they are true. we need to follow the law when you are in one, stop digging. near anyone stop digging. we need to stop making excuses about pre-k -- 12 education. when to stop doing things that don't work in the doing them again you cannot expect broken status quo to magically fix it

and to magically fix our broken schools and equip struggling students if you keep doing the same thing. the miserable fact to many of our schools in america and louisiana are failure factors, they are failure factors. violence is common and learning is rampant. to refute states that are bucking the status quo. they're doing and part by adopting school choice programs so far they've seen a lot of success school choice programs, school choice we realize as abroad shall determine. school choice programs can take many different shapes.

but they all boil down to one thing. one foundational principle. parents should be allowed to take their kids out of failing schools. parents should be allowed to take their children out of failing schools and put them in schools that can help those children thrive and certainly do better. it is not complicated. american parents today go to the grocery store they can choose from 40 different, may be more but certainly 40 different breakfast cereals to feed their child in the morning. but in many states those parents have absolutely no control over it which is school their child can attend. children are stuck in schools

many assigned by their parents zip code there's a little too many parents can do to change that even though it is patently absurd to force the children to attend failing schools when parents could enroll those kids and invest the money that pays for their education and better schools. and that is where school choice comes in. now in practice schools facilitate the implement school choice by tweaking how they funded school systems. for those of you who are unfamiliar with school funding schemes most public schools have three main sources of funding. federal dollars, state dollars, and a local dollars. the exact breakdown of that

money varies by state and by school system but in louisiana for example the average school district gets about 11% of its money from federal funding, 44% of its money from the state and another 45% from local governments. so 11, 44, and 45. local dollars typically stay with the school system when a particular town or parish, we call our counties and parishes. but public officials and louisiana have the right and ability to advocate -- allocate state and federal dollars the way they want too. one states adopt school choice policies, here is how it works parents typically get to decide

which school will receive their child to share of state and federal funding. the local dollars state local. but parents can redirect the federal and the state money. there are two ways in which states that implement school choice allocate that money. they reallocate that money in thefederal and the state dollar. the first just education savings account the second you have heard of it, vouchers. education savings accounts are government-funded savings accounts that take all or a portion of the federal and state dollars allocated to each student might give it to parents to use it for their kids education. parents can use the money in a multitude of ways. they can't use the money to pay for tutors, to purchase textbooks for homeschooling.

parents can use the state and federal money to subsidize a private school tuition. if a student -- parents have money left over when the student graduates from high school, that student could even use the funding to help pay for college is called an education savings account. all the states use a voucher system. under the voucher system parents typically do not receive money directly. instead they get to choose. they tell the school system which school their child is going to go to until the school system to send the federal and state money to that school. the money follows the children. they parents can take that voucher to a traditional public school. parents can take that voucher to a private school to pay private

school tuition. the parents can take that voucher to enroll their kids in eight charter school if they would like. charter schools as you note mr. president are tuition free publicly funded schools that operate independently of the state. rather than taking marching orders from the government, charter schools are able to design their own curriculum and their own standards to help meet the needs of each student. so whether it is through vouchers, or education savings accounts states that have embraced school choice have steadily climbed the ranks as the best states in this country for elementary and secondary education. that is just a fact, look at upward in florida, take florida for example florence has school choice for long time. decades. not mandatory but it's an option

a lot of parents love that option and that use it. graduation rates in florida have steadily increase year after year after year. florida's fourth-graders ranks third in the country and reading. they ranked fourth in the country in math according to the nation's report card. other pro-choice approach school choice states including iowa, north dakota, utah and mentioned a few hats all landed on the top 10 states on the nation's report card. school choice works. now, even states who have traditionally struggled with respect to education are seeing improvements. take louisiana's neighbor, mississippi. mississippi overhauled its pre-.

to help parents get their kids out of failing schools. the state implemented a voucher program for kids with dyslexia and a low income students to ensure parents could find a successful school that would meet their children's needs. mississippi also implemented a law requiring schools to hold back students who cannot read at grade level in the third grade. give them additional instruction. in other words if you are in the third grade and after several chances you cannot read at grade level you are not promoted to grade for you are kept in the third grade. until you can read. because kids drop out of high school and third and fourth grade. if they can't read they have got no chance. since mississippi did all of this in 2013

87% by 2020 well above the national average. mississippi managed. spending less money per student in all but four states. it is not just money. it is how you spend it.

this year, we are doing better than louisiana. we would pass a law because -- called hp 12. ensuring all students can read at grade level before they can move on to the fourth grade. and, fortunately, i thanked him for doing it, governor edwards did not veto the bill. i was afraid that he would. he signed it into law. i want to thank you for that. when it comes to school choice, governor edwards has opposed it at every turn. every turn.

he blocked to bills last year. establishing programs for my kids in louisiana. if those two bills had passed, parents of students with special needs are students who could not read at grade level by the third grade could have taken their state money, the state-funded education dollars, not the local , the state dollars to a different school that could better address those children's needs. but the governor closed the bills. those bills would have provided a lifeline to parents. a lifeline to parents who were

desperate and desperate to help their children succeed in school but governor edwards opposed. he opposed allowing these parents to find better alternatives for their children. now, the good news is, louisiana is about to have a new governor. the good news is louisiana is about to have a brand new legislature. i know our legislators. i have supported many of them. we made some wholesale changes. i know, i hope my friends in the louisiana legislature are anxious and eager and enthusiastic about the power to remove their children from failing schools. parents overwhelmingly support

school choice. louisiana, 75% of parents from school at age kids support school choice. 79% today. who can oppose school choice? many. not all. all the administrators in failing schools. not the kids. the adults. our schools are supposed to be about the kids. many, not all, but many of our teachers unions worry about giving parents choice about a different school. many, not all they hate the idea

the local schools to attract kids and on the state and federal dollars to follow those. it is called competition. and as i am sure you noticed, both of these that i just referenced of our teachers unions and administrators. focus what is best of them of the school system and adults. not for what is best for the parents of the kids. competition makes everybody better. petitioner makes everybody better and that is true of our schools, to. the united states have a highly competitive system. every turn, our universities are the best in the world. they are. by then to a school in another country. it was a good school.

they are the best of all human history. they have some problems, as we all know about, but they are still the best in the world. there is a reason these well-connected people around the world want to send their children to an american campus to get there different -- degrees. the excellence of american university is driven by the fact that students can choose to go elsewhere if the university stops delivery and quality education. and is called choice. it is about as american as you can get. that same competition as well. they don't need to watch the status quote. they don't.

stated throughout this country are empowering parents to take control of their kids education and the whole country stands a benefit from their leadership. all of the above guy. i don't care if it is public schools, private schools, vouchers, savings accounts or pixie dust. if it will help our kids learn better, i am for it. i do not care who gets mad. and that is why i am very optimistic. about the leadership changes in louisiana and the good news it could mean for our elementary and secondary education and for our parents and children. i am not saying school choice alone is the silver bullet. we have other problems in louisiana. we need to expand access through an education program for at risk children from early aged to age

four. we need to do a better job there we have qualified teachers. we need to find out which of our teachers can teach and pay them, like the professionals they are. which can teacher cannot teacher find a new line of work. we've got too much truancy among our kids. 40% of our k-eight schools grade a or b, but somehow magically 70 % of our high schools are graded a board the. we know that that is not right. we have watered down our standards. we have college costs for kids and parents that have doubled in the last decade. school choice will help.

and i believe as much as i am standing here america's future and louisiana future and be better and it can be better than our past. no one is saving our schools. with new leadership and school choice on the arise. the secondary education of louisiana and can be to me as promised. no person in my opinion can say he or she supports social justice. if they do not support school choice. with me today are two of my colleagues from my office.

i want to recognize them. i suggest, mr. president, i take you for your time and suggestion for a quorum. the boat has been going on for nearly five hours now. started just before 2:30 p.m. eastern time. forty-nine yes votes to 50 nose. the attempt to block will fail since all votes have been cast. tim scott is away from the chamber today. an update on the temporary

government funding passed by the house yesterday, the senate had hoped to vote on the bill today. holding that up because he wants the majority leader to process the 2024 defense programs and quality built. the upper chamber approves the funding plan today. while this boat continues into its fifth hour, we will take a look at the house oversight committee hearing.

the committee of oversight and accountability will come to order. without objection the chair may declare a recess at any time. good morning and welcome to this hearing on the general services administration hearing. serving as the supply closet, land lord, real estate agent, motor pool and it support. gsa has fallen short in executing its mission. look at the sudden announcement last week of the proposed headquarters relocation.

it appears at the 11th hour a political appointee was given the role of decision-maker. she then changed the criteria, reverse the recommendation of career experts then promptly left for a new job. it raises many questions that need to be answered. earlier, there was a bipartisan hearing that began an investigation into long-standing misrepresentations. their work is ongoing. the services log in.of provides are very much relevant and our find against identity theft. a key component in massive amounts of fraud we saw in covid

relief programs. if the biden administration is intended on pushing it onto federal agencies, we need to have confidence in the ability to protect the interests in the american tax credit. gsa is facing a crisis of confidence. it does so at a point where the biden administration is attempting to harden the policies in a number of different ways. electrification of the federal vehicle fleet. spreading the narrative of equity across every facet of the government and the effort to make work the norm in the federal agencies. on the last point, gsa is at

ground zero regarding the amount of office space the federal government leases and how much it actually uses. in washington, d.c. where most headquarters are located, much of the 21 million square feet of office space they occupy sits empty. according to the government accountability office, 17 of 24 headquarter buildings in d.c. were operating at 25% or less capacity as of march. get this, the six empty is buildings average just 9% capacity. the biden administration does not want to know or understand whether the employees are coming

into the work place. we had the director in the same room. she did not know. we have since written to individual agencies to ask each of them directly. gao building occupancy data speaks volumes. so to do the deserted daytime streets, metro ridership and diminished retail activity in downtown d.c. there are unused and underuse federal buildings thrown across the nation. hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer funds are spent annually just to maintain government owned properties that should be sold off. a billion dollars or more could be saved annually by terminating unneeded federal office space leases. $1 billion.

an issue prior to the pandemic. now it is one that is simply too big and too costly to ignore. they cannot have it both ways at taxpayer expense. you bring employees back to work to improve and service or you fully right size office space and hand taxpayers their telework dividend. we don't have time to wait around. half of the building leases are coming up for renewal in the next five years. employees are not going back to work. let's act accordingly.

when i look at the activities overseas, i see a lot of opportunities for savings and federal discretionary spending. it is directly involved with funds. it is the gate keeper to the marketplace across a wide variety of industries. in overseas thousands of federal properties and millions of rented square footage. this committee, at least my republican colleagues want to know that gsa is carrying out its responsibilities with the genuine interest of the taxpayer , front and center. we are confident after we received the report, we saw the information. what we found was the

administrator did spend a great deal of her time away from d.c. more than what unofficial travel would require. the chief house, we want to know if the agency had our leading by example. we have a lot to talk about today. i am pleased that the gsa administrator is here to explore these issues. i look forward to her testimony. at this time, i now yield to the ranking member for his other segment. >> thank you, chair. thank you, administrator for rearranging your schedule to be with us at the second attempt to have this hearing. a transparent and effective federal government that will provide exceptional service to the american people. the gsa is in charge of real

estate acquisition services and technology. it provides the services and products agencies need to meet their missions to the people. assuming her role during the cobra 19 pandemic and under leadership instrumental in reporting the government's response to this crisis. ensuring the safety of federal buildings to pre-or curing supplies and services gsa was crucial to maintaining the continuity of government. the american rescue plan and the inflation, democrats have led the way to fund gsa make the way to address the challenges of the new century. the administrator has delivered transformative action on these

priorities. gsa has been at the forefront of integrating integration into government, reducing costs and building a more resilient workforce. preparing the federal government who appears to work with its workplace 2030 initiative using federal purchasing power to support the small businesses in middle jobs and confronting the climate crisis by reducing greenhouse emissions. investing in sustainability and shifting to an electric vehicle fleet. gsa is also improving access to government services for all americans. lessons learned from the pandemic to better assess real property needs and helping federal agencies reduce their footprint. prudent action. hundreds of millions of dollars. gsa is devoted to helping federal agencies accept the need congress has diverted billions of dollars away from gsa's

investments in the gravely undermining its ability to reduce the federal real estate footprint. the result has already been an increase in cost that is aging and dilapidated buildings growing more and more expensive to repair. i look forward to hearing more from the administrator today, but the true cost and how we can see substantial cost savings by taking advantage of reduced real estate prices, high vacancy rates across america and the advent of telework. they're working gsa on approving republicans spending weeks and ridiculous internal partisan combat and mocking games. this was originally scheduled for october 19. a good chairman had to cancel it the night before. the hearing criticized the operations of the federal government on day 16 without a speaker is. the jeep ability to handle its

own internal operations not making for a very convincing show. now we are facing another guy shut down in a matter of days. emerging from the gop authority chaos division and crown throw. the antics and ideological extremism left the house unable to perform its most basic duties including giving this agency the funding it needs to do this work if my colleagues are truly concerned about the importance of government, they must start by getting their own act together in the house of representatives. i look forward to hitting testimony this morning. i yield back. >> i am pleased to introduce our witness today. right hand. firmed into the senate on june 2321. 11,000 gss acquisition solutions to management of public and least buildings. she led the senate and local government practice and

orientation within gsa with government agencies with government solutions. also serving the state of missouri secretary of state from 2005 to 2013. pursuant to committee rule 9 g will you please stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is a truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. let the witness know answering in the affirmative. we appreciate you being today and look forward to your testimony. >> good morning ranking member. my name is robin carnahan government work better. saving money while we do it is our north star. the federal government's real estate footprint.

making it easier, faster and cheaper for agencies to buy goods and services. using simple secure and accessible digital services for the public. my written testimony goes into greater detail about how we are working to achieve these goals. i want to highlight some of the opportunities and challenges that we are seeing at this very unique moment for those that we serve to make taxpayers. i know that that shares those goals. i would like to partner together to get this done. right now agencies across the government are rethinking how much space they need. working on the expertise whenever possible to downside. they have a great track record. we have helped reduce the federal foot print for 12 square feet and giving up 18 million square feet of leased space. we want to build on that record by continuing to consolidate.

we see an opportunity to reduce the footprint by up to 30%. that would save $60 billion over 10 years. just last week we announced 23 properties to get this started to dispose of. 35 million square feet of reduced space and cost avoidance not even counting what we get for the cost of sale. $1 billion. this is just a start. we need your help to do even more. so, what is that. what do we need. congressional support for our full budget request. and for key legislative reforms to speed up the process. consolidating agencies and disposing of buildings can only happen if we have modern functional space for agencies to

relocate into. experience for the public. the fact is there are a lot of common an u.s. web design system.

we are continuously expanding and improving those products to meet agency need. that includes things like compliance identity verification option for agencies through login.gov that will start next year. launching new text messaging notification system that could save thousands of hours and millions of dollars for agencies and the public. they push at the committee support for the modernization fund for the smartest investments and government want to work with you all to get that done finally as you may note last week gsa concluded its congressional congressionally site selection process for the fbi new headquarters campus. it determine the site in greenbelt, maryland to beat the fbi, the government because the site with lowest cost to taxpayers provided the greatest

access to transportation for employees and visitors. gave the government the most certainty on project schedule and also provided potential to advance sustainability and equity. i would encourage all of you to review the materials we have posted online. it includes our decision-making officials full 40 page decision document and her analysis that led to the final decision. we have always said from the beginning we are committed to a fair and transparent process. we mean that and we put all of our documents online. we are proud of the process we ran. i stand behind the decision of our team and all the public servants who carefully followed that process and selected the site most advantageous to the government. i don't the topic of great interest to the committee. i would be happy to discuss it further. i thank you for the opportunity to testify today and for your willingness to partner with gsa make our government work better

for the people we serve and to save money doing it. >> we now begin the question portion of the hearing. and i will begin. gao found 17 of 24 with some less than 10% straight gsa's own headquarters was only 11% occupancy the primate real estate agent and property management. gao notes the federal government owns a 511 million square feet of office space and leases that another 108 million square feet from the private sector to be used for federal agencies but some of 700 million square feet total of office space available to the federal government the cost of maintaining and operating out of that space is ridiculously high. administrator how much does it cost to operate and maintain office space used by federal agencies across the government?

the cost in the billions? >> sorry. what i can speak to congressman as the federal building savant which i referred to in my statements. that is the fund that lease payments by government agencies. >> it's in the billions right question of course according to data for the physically or 2022 federal property profile the cost owns lease or manage is over $25 billion. the agency spent 2 billion annually to operate and maintain federal office buildings at 5 billion on rental lease payments. administrator, i think you agree with me a huge portion of federal office space sits empty or underutilized. if we could just reduce the amount of office space leased by 10%, we would save roughly half a billion dollars of lease payments annually, correct? rex i could not agree with the more we have a huge opportunity

to optimize our footprint and eager to work with you to get that done progress administer the federal government owns properties all over the nation there underutilized many of these properties could be put to more productive use, helping local economies. selling these properties could yield a billions in sales proceeds and saves hundreds of millions of dollars every year in operation and maintenance costs, right? >> that is true progress in fact gsa data in fiscal year 2022 said limited disposal activity that occurred still netted $36 million in sales proceeds and 22 million and averted operations and maintenance cost. administrator, given that the federal workers are teleworking to such a high degree and given how empty our federal office buildings are, i assume gsa's weren't to downsize the federal government office space footprint to realize these cost savings. so what is the hold up?

>> implied you asked that question this is a topic of great interest to meet we are fully aligned what needs to happen. we need to optimize with me too shrink and consolidate whatever we can to make sure our billingsare useful for communite they sit but also save money for taxpayers. >> are federal agencies reluctant to give up office space? congressman i'd love to talk a little bit about what we are doing right now if you could give me a minute to begin the disposal process last week we announced 23 properties and facilities across the country we intend to begin the disposal process on. lb is 3.5 million square feet of reduction. got this $1 billion in cost avoidance not even counting the invite we will get. this is just the beginning we want to do more than that progress is present by the board with this?

is he pushing agencies to surrender space they're using? >> we are working closely with the folks at omb on all of this. we'll work with agencies acrosss the government fear of their space requirements are. >> their medical people are fed up with wasteful spikes not just federal empty office space nonprofit transparency group recently found federal agency spent $3.3 billion on furniture for the past few years apparently to furnish office space left mostly empty under maximum telework. some agency spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on updating empty conference rooms. administer a can of spam of the purchasing of federal furniture continued unabated during the pandemic? >> structure i cannot speak to specific items are purchased but i can say the government did not close down. agencies were content to work courthouses continue to operate, prisons were operating, the defense department's operating, lots of agencies were in

offices. i personally visited des moines throughout the pandemic they're constructing a courthouse. harrisburg, pennsylvania, san antonio, texas. >> my time is about expired but let me conclude by saying agencies it truly require new furniture can give the old furniture to other agencies or sell it off to private parties that would take some the burden off taxpayers. now i cannot imagine a big private business bending lavishly on furnishings for an office building that no one works out of. shareholders would not stand for it. when we cannot stand for and on behalf of the american taxpayers there needs to be a culture shift in the federal government that looks toward cost savings in achieving agency admission to the most efficient ways possible. i hope gsa hears that message loud and clear. i now yield to ranking member for his questions for. >> thank you councilman norton

go first thank you mr. chair. >> thank you. gsa is responsible for the efficient and effective functioning of our government. when it's budget is/the consequences are far-reaching. and more often than not counterproductive. in fact funding cuts to gsa translate to increased expenses for the american people. such as those caused by deferred maintenance of federal property. administrator, in fiscal year 20238 of these 17 major repairs and alteration projects that gsa requested in the presence of the budget were re- submissions because the projects did not receive funding when they were originally requested is that correct?

>> correct. >> in fiscal 202413 out of the 17 projects for resubmission does that correct? >> yes, ma'am. >> administrator, hand is it correct the cost of resubmitted projects increased by $300 million due to the delays caused by congresses failure to fund them? >> i think that would be the low end yes. >> house republicans fiscal year 2024 dental services general government appropriations bill which funds it would cut seven or $50 million from the federal building fund. this is a $1.6 billion below the administration's request for the funds. administrator, how does this

lack of funding lead to waste and mismanagement of taxpayer dollars? >> psyche for that question i refer to my statement to the federal buildings fund and how crucial that was for our ability to consolidate so buildings and save money. if you think about in your own life if you have two locations if you are a business and have two locations undecided center shrink into one you usually need a little bit of money to maybe upgrade and modernize or change and reconfigure the one building are going to bring everybody into. that is exactly what we are talking about here. you cannot get rid of the old building that you know is going to save a lot of money if there's not a way to upfront have money to invest in the improvement of the one you're going to keep. if you think about that across the portfolio it's happening over and over again. the single biggest impediment as a gao said to downsize and

consolidating saving billions of dollars for taxpayers is access to upfront money that congress intends to come from the federal buildings fund. congress solve the problem and it worked for decades it's only been over the past 12 years that over a billion dollars year have been siphoned off to use for other things we are asking for that money to then have long term planning to which shirt color which i agree needs to happen and to optimize our footprint. parks republican bill fails to include any new funding the technology modernization fund which is critical to improving and securing it systems. when democrats come american rescue plan provided $1 billion is it true federal agencies

submit a proposal is requesting more than $3.5 billion? that is in support of the technology modernization projects? >> yes that turned out to him of the smartest investments congress could make in modernizing technology that it has been very popular among agencies because it is a way to get money faster given technology changes so quickly they need the speed of need to safely get access to money and tmf helps with that. >> will happen if these projectf you can succeed in borrowing funding to the technology modernization fund in fiscal year 2024? >> the primary issue will just be delay. we are living in a world where technology changes weekly if not faster the only way the federal government it can keep up is by having access to funding to

respond at the speed of need. tmf does that if there is a decision made to stop funding it will go back the two, three, four, five years that sometimes takes to get funding for technology. >> thank you, time has expired. what's a gentle lady time has expired they have culvert votes that we are going just to her questions on each side the chair now recognizes mr. higgins from louisiana. >> think it mr. chairman, administer thank you for being here today will touch on a couple things moving fast regarding to fbi many of my colleagues in the house and senate, myself included have expressed serious concerns regarding the weaponization of the fbi. and yet it's on the slate moving forward together in a brand-new building going to oppose that with every fiber of my being. in fact i think the fbi as an institution should be taken down

brick by brick by oppressive brick and rebuilt from the ground up literally. we're going to focus on gsa interaction there is been widely reported fbi and many virginia officials have voiced concerns regarding conflict of interest for the selection process of relocation of the building on october the 12th, of this your director ray should be removed or resigned, sent g raising concerns about conflicts of interest by nina albert a political appointee at gsa. regarding the selection of the greenbelt parcel of land quote unquote which was owned by the washington metropolitan area transit authority which was a senior officials immediate prior employer. nina albert is now been hired as a deputy mayor of the district

of columbia's planning and economic development. administrator have you conducted a review of these allegations and if so what are your findings? >> since your question, sir we have conducted a review. when i received the letter from director rate raising concerns about the process the site selection authority that you mentioned i referred it to our legal counsel to dig into whether there is any merit. >> too that legal counsel work for you administrator? >> yes or that is the legal counsel i rely on. so i sent that to our legal counsel had them review the process. review the participation and they found no merit in any of that. i will tell you we fully vetted ms. albert because we knew of her prior employment at the washington area metro transit authority pick what you said he found no merit not to interrupt just following what you stated

here, you found no merit do the facts not match up with what was reported? >> the suggestion there was a conflict or potential conflict is what i was referring to. this is an issue that we were aware of her former employer at the time she was hired as the top building official and real estate expert at gsa. we knew the fbi was going to be relocating to one of the three sites that congress directed us to make a decision about. we asked our legal counsel at that time to make sure that was fully vetted progressive state legal counsel is that one attorney or a team of attorneys? and is that public? is this an attorney the committee can question? >> wheat would certainly be interested in questioning the attorney that came to the conclusion that there was no

issues with the situation i will describe you apparently have accepted what the attorney said there's no issue so there is no issue. but the oversight committee's not going to readily accept that conclusion so please clarify your position there for our future reference on this committee. do you accept? you said you referred it to legal counsel you referred to one legal counsel you described that an office have they given you an official report? can we review the official report? are you going to stand up on that we call you again next year end have that counsel in front of us? >> yes sorry i do not understand your question. we have hundreds of pages we posted online about all of the decision-making process that includes the review of our legal counsel. you can go to our website progress and the remaining 30 seconds i'm trying to drill down here on what you are referring

to as your legal counsel describe what that is to america? >> there is a general -- office of general counsel gsa has several hundred attorneys in it. i am not sure how many were involved in the review of this. but the reference i am making is signed by the general counsel. >> okay so suffice it to say a team of attorneys employed by gsa have determined there is no nefarious intent in the situation that i have described regarding the location of the proposed new fbi building. >> the legal counsel and gsa the general counsel looked into the questions that were raised by director ray and found they did not have merit >> very well my time has expired mr. chairman but i strongly advise this committee takes further action to look into this now the gsa

legal counsel taken a position to yield progress will do that, thank you mr. higgins for the chair recognizes mr. lynch from massachusetts. >> just following up on that, so it director ray brought the question forward is that right to have legal counsel look at the potential of that transaction? no, sir director ray sent a letter that listed a few concerns the fbi apparently had progress i said he raised the concern you're saying you sent the letter raising the concern we have a difference of opinion here? >> i am sorry repeat your question please. >> for version about the bidding process regarding the new headquarters? process we used to make the site

selection yes. >> yes would have been good. that's exactly what is asking you. so he wasn't trying to hide something he was trying to get an answer on some questions right? what's yes, sir. >> and gsa and the federal government hold troves of sensitive data from social security numbers, to classified national security information. and so our cybersecurity postures extremely important protecting all that information. congress and american rescue plan appropriate additional $1 billion for the technology modernization fund you spoke about earlier. we do hear complaints from agencies about the speed at which that money is deployed for

modernization of some of the legacy technology that is out there and opposes eight vulnerability. can you give us an update on how that money has been deployed? is there any delay there? or is it just because of the number of requests across agencies? >> thanks for the question. the technology modernization found i truly think he is one of the smartest thing that's ever been passed by congress. we need to have modern technology to serve the american people and we need to have folks who understand technology to help make decisions about how that money is spent. so, when i arrived the team that was running was pretty small that did not involve and include season technologist but we have built up that team. we brought people in from the private sector to help run the operation and it is completely

transformed the amounts of amouf projects that have gone through art much much higher speed is 47 projects that is gone through $770 million that have passed through and been committed. i'm really proud of the work that that team has done. >> okay sounds like me got off the ground there's a little delay because of the small number of people who were administering that. if you have examples of projects are areas in which that funding has been? >> yes, i do. while it's not formally divided up into buckets it is mainly focus on cybersecurity. in a thing called zero trust as we were the primary areas of focus that of course is something all agencies need. also shared services. what i mean but i think about government interacts with people it is very similar whichever agency you are dealing with.

i can be identity, i can beat be logging in, it can be transferring money we do shared services that the thing that can save a lot of money and provide better service we did citizen facing services they are. for example abolishment of the va department of agriculture ways to help veterans access benefits quicker and help farmers be able to get -- apply for loan to get things done quicker. we drill out the national archives of the moment i have helped open security agencies across the government. in fact every single cabinet agency has done some work with tmf. >> great. there is a concern about the department of health and human services on the sensitivity of americans health information. have any resources been dedicated to solving that vulnerability?

>> protecting folks personal information is a high priority. i can look into you and get back with you with which we worked on. >> i appreciate that i yield back the judgment was back pursuant to previous or the chair because the committee and recess. will plan to reconvene 10 minutes after votes the committee stands in recess. [background noises] [background noises]

[background noises] >> the committee will come to order. the chair now it recognizes doctor fox of north carolina for five minutes. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. mr. carnahan and the first pandemic era many businesses in the private sector downsizing office space in so many employees are working remotely or adopting hybrid schedules. it has been report about 52% of companies are planning to reduce their office space over the next three years. the same changes are also affecting federal government. as i am sure you are aware the government accountability office noted 17 of 24 major federal

agency headquarters the dcr lesson 25% occupied. how much is gsa spend annually to maintain and operate office space for federal agencies? >> thanks for that question congresswoman. we talked about a little bit in the first session. we have the federal buildings fund is where agencies that have space in buildings or have leased space pay rent effectively. i'm told that amount every year is around more or less $11 billion per. >> 11 billion? >> esters rental payments. that's different than your question which was about how much we spend. so what happens is a federal buildings fund is shorted every year and what we are allowed to spend so typically what will happen about half of our portfolio is least in half his

own too. for the least portion of the rents goes immunity out the door and pays the owner of the building and whatever community building is in. the other half is meant to go back into the maintenance of the buildings. what has happened over the last 12 years is that portion has been basically siphoned off to pay for other things. that is why we have not been able to reinvest in buildings. >> that is not my issue. if 70% of the major federal agency only 25% occupied i believe we would find substantial savings by downsizing the office space, would you agree? >> absolutely. >> potentially billions of dollars wasted each year on underused assets what is gsa doing to save passed taxpayers money? thank you for the question we take that very seriously predicted not agree with the more we have an opportunity to shape billions of dollars for

taxpayers. >> okay so let me follow-up. how are you determining when it is necessary to downsize office space? so, our team is that a portfolio wide review and national portfolio review to figure out which buildings we should keep and which buildings we should dispose of. i think this huge first step. we announced last week already 23 of those are going to be put up through the disposal process. just as 23 buildings is a reduction of 3.5 million square feet of space. and potential in cost avoidance again since i've been talking about the the value when we sell it, of over a billion dollars. we are eager to work with you all to get this done. >> ordinary american small businesses and corporate america cannot afford to pay for space they barely use let alone help the federal government pay for its unused space. so how