[applause] >> live sunday december 3rd on in depth, author and uc berkeley law professor john yoo joins and takes calls about the suemcourt, the voice of power, therump administration and more, the book "crisis and command", donald trump's fight for power and published incorrect guide to the supreme court. and join with your phone calls, facebook comments and texts. in depth with john yoo, live december 3rd noon eastern on book tv on c-span2. ♪♪ >> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's story,

and on sundays, book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. sundaying for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more, including cox. >> the syndrome is extremely rare. >> hi. but friends don't have to be. >> this is joe. >> when you're connected, you're not alone. >> cox, along with these television companies support c-span2 as a public service. >> good evening, everyone, and welcome, i'm brad graham, co-owner of politics and pros. along with my wife. ... and. it's it's very exciting for all of us to be hosting cassidy hutchinson, who's here to talk, of course, about her new book, enough. but let me first note that but let me first note that this evening event is a joint effort

by george washington university and politics and prose.un the university and our bookstore have been working together for some time now and putting on events, and i would like to think that district thank the gw staffer helping make this event possible. so i would be surprised if there's anyone here not familiar with cassidy is captivating and pivotal appearance before the house select committee investigating the january 6th assault on the capitol. her stunning testimony early last year as a former special assistant in the white house who had personally witnessed the goings on at the highest levels around donald trump, provided vivid and damning details about just how far the president in senior aides were willing to go to deny the results of the 2020

election and maintain power. watching cassidy testify, the rest of us could only imagine at that time what incredible pressure she had been under, not to do all she knew about what had gone on and what incredible courage she and sense of patriotism it has taken to go public with her story. well, her book now reveals just what she went through. it starts at the beginning, recount her childhood in a working-class family in new jersey, and later a remarkably swift rise in washington to the upper reaches of trump's white house, only to become increasingly disillusioned by the chaos, simplicity and wrongful behavior that she saw -- complicity.

having once been deeply under trump's way, cassidy eventually faced a choice between continued loyalty to the president and loyalty to the country. wrenching as a crisis of conscience was for her, her booh makes clear that going through it ultimately led letter toa stronger sense of herself. conversation with cassidy decedent will be a a distinguished house democrat who has led efforts to hold trump to account, jamie raskin. [cheers and applause] >> i constitutional lawaw exper, congressman raskin has represented -- [cheers and applause]

>> so i just wonder say a couple more lines about jamie, but obviously you all know who he is. he's a constitutional law expert and he has represented maryland's eighth district since 2017 and, of course, served on the january 6th select committee, it is also authored several books at his most recent, if you have read it, yoh should, his most recent was unthinkable which chronicled his own trauma in early 2021 as he grieved the suicide of his son while eating a second impeachment proceedings against trump. so as good as a ladies and gentlemen, please welcome -- [laughing] you already have, so on the the show. [applause] >> sorry about that. we did me to crash the introduction. we were motioned to go in, and speeded you were you ad

to be here. i i come on the other hand. >> hello, gw, and thank you politics and prose for doing this. [applause] and thank thank you, cassr suggesting me as your interlocutor, your interrogator today. >> it wouldn't be the first time. [laughing] [applause] >> thank you to our best congressman raskin for a green beer and also all of you for coming out tonight. this means a tremendous amount to me. i will speak on behalf of the congressman but i appreciate you all. [applause] >> are right. you've written an extraordinary and riveting, captivating book. i've got a thousand question for you. is the number one "new york times" bestseller. [applause]

and already they havehe run outf books. one thing i think it's very cool about the book is that there's no index in it, and -- >> i left that out intention. >> my dad uses a people in washington read backwards. they look for the name and they go to the forward. >> sort of ruins although that, hopefully anybody who comes to actually to read is very exactly. if you want to know if you're in cassidy is book you have to read the book inn order to figure it out. look, i want to salute you on the achievement the doing. i know how hard it is to write a book and a note this has been tough and cooling time for you, and a lot of ways. this is a book which when you finish you wish a lot more had been said, not a lot less, which is true of both political books. so i got a lot of questions for

you, and the personal stuff in this book is as fascinating, or even more fascinating, then the political stuff. and so i want to show some of the personal stuff. you write that you never, your family did not talk about politics goingng up, and yet you grew fascinated by politics. in 2012, it was the romney obama race and that was when you checked out the debate. you investigated a little bit and you thought that you would become a republican at that point. what you just give us a glimpse you'reit thinking was? a what were the ideas and the images that motivate you? the political scientist at a lot of people are most influenced by the own family in terms of how

the end of registering to vote or thinking about politics, but what was it that grabbed you about romney or the gop? >> i wish it was a very straightforward answer to it. so going back to the way when i was going up, my uncle joe, who was one of the most formative people in my life, he was in the army and he was really the only person that i knew my family was very skeptical about the government and didn't have the most strong feelings about the government so i sort of had that sentiment in my mind, but then ahead this man, my uncle joe, who did serve in the military. so i i had this idea public service and i was fascinated by it and sort of wanted to go into public service from young age myself, although not really knowing what that might look like. so during the 2012 election we were assigned to watch one of the debates and remember watching the first debate and listening to former president barack obama and met veronica

back and forth. it wasn't one particular issue, and i wish it was that it wasn't one particular issue that stood out to me as much as i liked what mitt romney was saying about the party agenda as a whole, and it made sense to me. >> yet. >> at the time i was i think 15. >> i know. i mean, it is hard, keep in mind myself how young you are but you exactly the age of our youngest daughter. you are 26yo now, right? i mean what's remarkable is when a lot w of these events were taking place when you're 24 or 25, you were by far the youngest person in the white house and you also the adult in the room most often. but let's just, i've got another question about your childhood, because you describe i think in a very delicate way a childhood that at some chaos and instability in it. i think it was when your mom

decided to move to indiana and you went with your brother jack, and your mom. i think it that had not committed commit to join you get for a while, right? but you described how at recess of the kids would go out and play and you stayed in and talked with the teacher. and it seems like your entire life you that this extraordinary identification with older people who have taken such an interest in you from mark meadows to president trump to professors, teachers, tamika liz cheney, matt gaetz, although i think that's kind of different. [laughing] >> we will stick with the credible -- [applause] >> now, you can get as psychoanalytical as you want to come or not at all, but, i mean,

have you noticed that quality in yourself? have the always felt more comfortable with older people than with your peers? and you also been intellectually precocious, too. part of which he describes the little bit bored but what was going on with the standard curriculum, wanting to learn from the tedious much as you could, and looking always opportunities to study more deeply, specifically government, public policy. >> i would say it's two-pronged one, , i was raised in an environment where privacy was power. i think that also sort of carried through my adult life, and they're so great element privacy and people shouldn't have the right to remain private. but it was different in a way that i wasrm raised in terms of like, we very much kept to ourselves. i had speeded because of your dad mostly? >> yes, predominately but even

when my parents got divorced it was sort of ingrained in us. i had two really close friends going up but then when they moved i sort of was like, well, i wanted too be -- i did up of friends my age but i did feelea probably to lake middle school i felt really for the first time that i could identify, at least adults,ate better with which i rescinded at the time. i also was very tall. i have not grown since six great. but no, then on the other side of it, i felt more intrigued by adult conversation, not just in the sense of what they were discussing body felt i was more challenging and i get have more thought-provoking conversation with adults, or so then people my own age. that's that completely universal. there have been incredible people in my age group. >> yeah. well, that leads almost immune

to question the several people asked. one person wrote, how did someone with your incredible intelligence, soul and heart end up with the trump crew? [laughing] but before we get to that of don't want to jump the gun on that -- >> give me time to think about that. >> you had a fight with your dad that struck me, in the book, where he's watching the apprentice which was his favorite show. and you said, i wish that you would spend as much time with your family as you spend with donald trump in the apprentice. that was a remarkable moment. what was your take away from the conversation that you had about that? and what did it make you think about donald trump? >> i was in fourth grade site is about ten years old. >> she was ten years old when apprentice was on. >> i wrote i will have to fact check that. no, so that was towards the era were my parents were on the verge of getting divorced, or at

least progressing towards that. i want to preface this, my father, , with a very strange relationship now, and even going up, but he was very formative in my life and i wouldn't, for better or force, i wouldn't be be here today without a lot of the lessons, for better or for worse, that i learned from him. be a taught you to warrior. >> yes. and again, up to the readers, whatever you want to make of that. he's a very complicated man but i do, i love him and he loved me the way that he knew how to love me. and with the apprentice, i have this very faint idea of who donald trump was. i grew up in new jersey so if you like a lot of people sort of have an idea of who donald trump was. my father owned his own business. he had a landscaping company speeded it's not for seasons. [laughing]

>> no, no, believe me. my father was always looking for the next test business adventure, business venture. and he put donald trump on this pedestal as this man who built his empire, which now is look back and more recently in the last year, and totally not the correct presumption. i didn't really go of person idolizing trumpeter grew up around people who either idolized trump as businessmen idolize the mentality behind that, behind what he had said. so when is running for president, didn't really take it since it first but it wasn't this, i didn't have this for dimensional view of what an actual trump presidency would look like based off my fourth grade apprenticeship. >> that was your first encounter with a donald trump when your dad was watching him on tv? >> it was. when i was like in middle school, high school would go down to atlantic city sometimes,

and what was the trump hotel, one of the trump casinos, my stepfather, he's my chosen father, i callim them, paul, wod talk about donald trump. he was sort of a household name, but not what i was like pushed to adore him myself.t so i feel like it was sort of this almost a sense of premonition, like theirs is thak i sort of know who he is and that's in-kind as is incredible businessman and this american giant. and then, i member meeting for the first time. >> when you make the movie of your book, he will appear as a cameo in those first scenes in the background. >> he'll be thrilled. >> why we should mom this injured person in your family, as you put it? >> after my parents got divorced, a i lot of times i fet like it was my mom and i against the world, , and they had a complicated divorce. and i did choose writing this

book was difficult because you mentioned psychoanalysis earlier. i am not very big on psychoanalysis, so for me like i life was my and it was sort of like a survival mode, which i didn't fully appreciate a realist realize at the time period you know, we got by day by day and had a strained relationship but i took the role as the intermediary. she worked, she hadre a very low paying job. like done financially, so i, like we were trying to keep that relationship there. sore and i, in those years, so fifth-grade, , sonata and 11, bt in those years after, high school graduation, relied on each other as emotional support but also and support for family just to make sure we could get by. >> yeah. you made a trip to washington, d.c. and felt this immediate intense infinity -- affinity with the city and kind of an

ethical sense and spiritual sense, and you knew it would be an important part of your destiny. what was it you saw in washington when you came here? how old were you during that trip? >> second grade. so it was after -- second-grade going to third grade. >> she has an amazing memory. anything, which what makes her a bad ass witness on capitol hill, right? [laughing] >> you're welcome. [laughing] [applause] sofi, when at first, my uncle joe andnd my aunt had just moved from indiana to, washington, d. he had come back from afghanistan he was working atki the pentagon. we arrived late night and had an apartment in crystal city and the balcony overlooks this continent and member of of tt and looking out and just feeling mesmerized with the city skyline.

i hadn't even got into the city get. later that day we went and did a walk on the mall, the washington mall cop starting at the lincoln memorial and ginny at theim capital. the first time i felt this like what i call now like gravitational pull was when i saw the washington monument. i don't know why but it was, for ever been this great -- >> psychoanalysis. [laughing] >> we passed the washington monument. we got to the capital and actually have a picture. this is quitet embarrassing, bt i started crying and it looked a month and i said i wanted to stay. we moved around a lot when i was a child. i was like commitment to washington, d.c.?me i really want to be to washington, d.c. i remember we're at the capital. look ati, the capital and al like was that moment that kind of clicked for me where i i hd

this idea of public service. i had been to the city. i, again, the region but no idea .what it would look like but i felt that i belong here, and every time i would visit d.c. and delete it would be a very emotional experience for me. i sort of lift this goal of how can i f get back? >> you with the first person in your family to go to college. >> i was. >> and you went to christopher newport in new virginia, not far from d.c. tell us about how you actually got involved in republican politics and government service. because one of the remarkable things about the book is how many of the people who are key actors in the drama of january 6th got an insurrection and the attempted coup, al, what pee you actually met before you knew before, including speeded like formative years of my very young career in d.c. >> yeah. iea mean, so, i mean jim jordan

with somebody, kevin mccarthy. you had met nancy pelosi. he had a story about her. so how did you get involved at how did you make like that rapid ascenten into politics such that you actually knew a lot of these players, including liz cheney? >> yeah.om so after my sophomore year, , or during my sophomore year of college i had worked my freshman summer going into software year, worked through sophomore year, and it worked the summer after freshman year because i had the goal, okay, i need to spend the next two summers so i could eventually get a job in washington. >> the college kids are taking notes by the way what you're saying. >> for better or for worse, take it with a grain of salt. i remember it was right after winter break sophomore year. i went toms the library can lock myself a in one of the study wet on a filled out an application for every single house house republican office and sent them out. no idea what i was doing. i was l just like -- apply for your office.

i got several of interviews, including one ins, leadership wh the thin the jordan with steve scalise, and was offered i ended up taking the internship with majority with steve scalise. this was a summer of 2017. when i started working started working there i started working with the member services team which is to not to delve too deeply into but the member services team is in charge of managing the relationships with all of house republicans. so as the intern i got to know the majority of the republican conference that summer. i think that sort of set up, too, for the future opportunities including the next summer when entered inir the office of what affairs at the white house. >> right. that was under -- who hired you the first time when he went to the white house? >> marc short was the director

of legislative affairs at the time. >> and he also comes to what a role in january 6th. >> so marc short was a direct of legislative affairsn when inten in legislative affairs, and then when i was hired full-time in the summer of 2019, marc short became the vice presidents chief of staff. >> so let's come back to that question that my friend asked, which is how did someone like you who comes i through both in person and in this book you've written as honest and decent and loyal and very law-abiding, come to basically do anything that was asked of you by a president to call is that you aren't speaking, this is an editorial here on my part, totally diss look totally dissed totally

deceptive con duplicitous, untrustworthy and so on. [applause] yeah, how does it happen? that's a remarkable story and it's an important story for us to understand in democracy. >> okay. i'm not trying -- read the book, everybody.ef i will preface it with -- >> i read the book. i'm still asking the question. >> i want to be the talk about one moment. so i did vote for donald trump in 2016. didn't put all that a much thout into it. i didn't think he had a chance at winning, and i was dating time wast the republican, did not like donald trump. but it wasn't that big of a shock at the time period i was not fully what i call like team trump or a believer in the agenda, really, but i went to the trump's 100 day rally in

harrisburg, pennsylvania, at the end of april. and it wasn't so much a policy that had attracted -- again, i try to be very candid and formable in the book, and my flaws or have them and there's a lot of them, but i, it wasn't so much about the policy at the time period it was, i was at this rally. i heard about this effect that it has on you when you go to a rally and you just feel pulled to them, but then as instead began looking around and i'm looking at all these people who are mesmerized by him, one of them had tears in their eyes, look at this minute and i -- but that all people i felt like i grew up around. my parents voted for the first time in 2016 for trump. i'm looking around, maybe he is the politician that can change things. maybe he is that person that everyone is saying that he is. but at the time i didn't,

michael was not to work for donald trump. i did want to work inlets and affairs. i interned in legislative affairs. at the end of the internship my goal was to get back to capitol hill. i was offered a a job at the whe house after i graduated, and regardless of our politics are, and i told the story and we were i tried to t tell it in real-ti, i felt how my mind was working at the time versus how i came to be where i'm at now. but when it took the job, full-time job in legislative it was an honor to serve in the executive branch. i realize it might not be the most flattering answer but i was honored and to think anybody who has the opportunity to serve in government, whether it's a legislative branch, wherever it is, you should take it. it's an invaluable experience. >> there's a lot of -- >> i wasn't partisan fashion a very slow progression to the point wherein i was a public servant and then it was the

loyal footsoldier. >> gotcha. so thatf was kind of the trajectory your on because the summit patriotism in this book, like when you see the flag, when you see washington come when you see the monuments.of so you were carried away with it i get the gist being in government and just being able to serve in the executive branch, right? but did you about any misgivings are sycophants but anything going on when you at the white house before january 6th? like, for example, there was a moment when amy coney barrett was being nominated to the supreme court, and dated even, was or ever any discussion about the fact that mcconnell and the gop have blocked my constituent, merrick garland, from even getting a hearing 11 months before the end of obama's term? and then two months before the end of trump's term, they railroaded through mrs. waterford or whatever namee is. they got it through like, but was or any, they give you pause?

did anything like that give you pause? >> there were -- broad question. there were a lot of moments that did give me pause and want to be delicate with the way answer this. yes, yes, i worked in legisle affairs. i was promoted to work in the chief of staff office because i have developed a relationship with then congressman mark meadows. but what it did the job with mark and thickly with them that i was working for the office of the chief of staff, not chief of staff mark meadows it because i saw myself as working for the institution, not the individual. that was a clear and distinct difference to me. at the time i was a fully aware, you know, there is at this very strong sense of loyalty in the trump administration, and osama so as loyal to the government into the office and to the job i

had. at some point those lines became blurred and at some point it was very, very blurred. so that being said there were things to give me pause, especially like during the coronavirus pandemic and when would go to thehe hill to meet with leadership, speaker pelosi and chuck schumer. but the way i saw much of was i had a job to do, and whatever had to do to get that job done, i wasn't there negotiatingng policy. iwa was there trying to provide counsel to the c principles that were cast with in a way i so much of was a better job i do and the more sound counsel i could provide them with, the better this will go as as a , if that sort of -- >> yeah. and you talk about covid a lot, about mixed messages that were being sent and the strange signals -- >> disinfectant getting injected, yeah. >> and you. all ended up getting

it of course. you got it after trump got it, right. >> was this a good time to get coronavirus, let me be clear. but at that moment i can't coronavirus right after novembe. so we just finished the campaign -- >> loyal to a fault. >> so i had a nice ten-day little recess while all the election stuff is starting to go underway. so i get back and then i'm in the middle of what the heck is going on? >> let's talk about that. what were the warning signs for you, pre-january six about what was going on? you record the right number of closed-door meetings that you were closed out of but did you have an inkling that there were, you know, there were these various streams of coup and insurrections of leading up to an explosion on january sixth? >> at the time, and at first, so at the time now and talk about

november, mid-november 2020 through mid-december 2020. at the time now, because at that point in my mind we were filing lawsuits, and just for the record, i think any candidate that thinks that the election results are close does have the right to file lawsuits where that's spitting that's the way to do it. >> it's accepting what the lawsuit say. we're starting to defy the rule of laws and the think it starts get a little fickle. at first i had, and also mr. trump before the election talk to me sarcastically on air force one, one day, but sing like if the democrats steal this election from us, what you move down to florida with a? so i don't idea how far it was going to go. >> there were lots of indications anything you hope to tip us off to some of these were

trump was saying things like you're walking around and just how wrong thing, i can't believe i lost to this guy, that there was a kind of deep personal recognition. >> to get a point where he would just concede and beat be tt about it but know i give that would get to the point that it did. i would say thoughh december 18 december 18-2020 was the first real turning atnd the time i e fact that undersea how things lined up and i come over my mind. but the february 18 was a night there was an oval office meeting with the ayes dissent mike flynn. mike flynn, f the former overstock.com ceo patrick byrne, city powell andvo there expressg invoking martial law or the insurrection act and that was the first moment for me in the dates afterward is kept getting worse -- more astounding.

but again we were still dealing with a lot of issues that were not just january 6th really. we were still working to pass the ndaa. people trying to work on the peaceful transfer. so wasn'twe like a days were ony concerned with january 6th hangs, but december 18 i think was the turning point where it was like okay, , things might, things were kind of getting a little -- >> yeah. so your mom who is a hero of mine in this book anyway called you and said don't go to work on january 6th. >> yeah. so december, it was december 19, the tweet was sent out that the there, olivia wilde on january 6th. candidly, i have some family members who are, would associate themselves with some of the more extreme right, what i call the extreme right wing group such as

qanon. it was early january my mom had come probably from speaking with my family if you've ever had it read in-depth conversation that are pushing a a lot of people ce to d.c. for the trolley. i knew we're having about it but to me it was about, but she was really nervous about the rally before him, up until the night before morning actually tied to convince me not to go to work but for me i can't job to do, right? i had to go. >> yeah. >> may be thankfully ditka i don't know. >> one of the dramatic moments in your testimony before the select committee on january 6th is when you described trounce reaction, to the secret service's insistence that people coming to his rally, which kind of the warm-up rally for the

march and the big scene at the capital, they are -- their determination that people have to go through the max. tell us that story if you would from your perspective about what exactly happened. i think thatt was a moment that was electrifying speed is electrifying for me that morning, too. that was like the first moment i had that morning i was like holy crap, what is happening today? >> explain it. you talk about the mags a lot in election leading up to it and how -- >> the mags always an issue in the campaign. >> that short for magnetometers. >> i think you all had to go through magnetometers or a least -- thank you all for i know you're there for us but i appreciate the fact you're willing to do this. >> they came in to tell us that we were a startling because people are going to the magnetometers. i heard cassity them to take down the effing mags. [laughing] >> it was a joke.

[laughing] >> a private moment. >> sorry. [laughing] >> on that come that they had to go and testify we were in the car going to the capital, and they said to my lawyers, i'm like, i'm the effing witness. take me back. no, so ias got -- dark humor. very serious topics. this patient todayay as we are pushing this next election cycle which came like that. now, , so i got to the white hoe that morning. we're driving to all these crowds of trump supporters. this is sort of weird. i go into the deputy chief of staff office he received security updates, and he starts reading me e-mails had been receiving about what the secret service deemed as weapons and some of which are very clearly weapons, things like flagpoles which may be not weapons but

like that's a problem. secret service had seen guns on people. so then when we get down to the ellipsis that day, you know, i should mention the magnetometers were always an issue during the campaign because the president or mr. trump always wanted around space to be full for a picture. it wasn't that they because all the people who were trying to get through the mags had quote-unquote secret service team with weapons of the couldn't get to the magnetometers. the former president had said take the effing mags down, they are not hereta to hurt me, take the effing backs away. they can march to the capital from here. thank you met s and women secret service knew that regardless that they were there for them or not, -- [inaudible] >> yeah. >> sorry. >> taketh chiseled into your mind about what was taking place over the course of the day that

you are presumably watching on tv. what was take place at the capital. you saw vice president flee. he saw the house and the senate evacuate the chamber. >> a lot of it hearing. sometimes have trouble deciphering just what was actually televised. some things were televised later in the day.. >> right. >> you know, this day, i mean, it will never be -- i don't it makes the emotional thinking about it. i felt so helpless that day because of such a connection with the institution of congress, and he knew so many of you, so many staffers, but also like seeing -- i described in testimony the best way i could think of how even the sort of watching a bad car accident or being in a bad car accident where you cutut its or to happen

and there's nothing you can do to stop it. >> edges of the officers being beaten and bloodied? >> somethings on twitter. again, like -- yeah, and being the white house with sort of just, we were at the lipstick we knew the security barricades, the bike racks are soaring to be breached that because we knew the capitol police were overrun by the rioters. the president still wanted to go to the capital. we get back to the white house despite his resistance, and so i sitting at my desk and that sort of backy and forth. every minute of the day felt like a lifetime because it was sort of just like waiting for the next best thing to happen. once they actually got through, i mean, that's when i think how real it was hit me, although almost saw going in the direction while but my mind immediately went to, i don't

want to fear monger with obama might be meeting with two like these people don't know who these people, meaning the rioters don't know the most of these numbers of cogs are. they don't know who journalists are. they think that journalists are the enemy of the people. to me at the time they would've had no bounds and if it gotten -- i was fearful members of congress, anybody spitted they pencehanting hang mike and he knew exactly what. >> exactly. then the speaker pelosi was great even if, i think maybe jim jordan would've been spared. but if you had your pen on come like it was just writing be on the inside knowing bits and pieces of what was happening at the capital. also knowing it wasn't much that i could do to stop it. it was a very helpless feeling. it's something that will always live with me. yeah so i don't want to actually follow up with that.

>> lawyers a prominent role in your story here. you are in desperate search for a lawyer. you had little or no money. you don't come from a family with a lot of wealth and your savings were meager. you could have given everything you had for a days worth of legal services in washington,, and so you were looking around for a lawyer who would do it for pro bono or a low discount speeded put me on a play that ban. >> like a pay away plan. you did not want to end up being a bought and paid for witness under the trump employ. and yet ended up with a trump lawyer. that's the chapter that i recommend highly to people in law schools to read about what each what it would like to need a lawyer. so you ended up with some great lawyers. >> one of which is here, mr. bill jordan. >> mr. bill jordan is here.

[applause] >> but that's the favorable dénouement of the whole story. start a bad because you did end up going withit a lawyer who was cleared from trump world. i think maybe even went to school with his lawyer. and you were told to limit your testimony to ask you words as possible. and if he couldn't remember every single detail of an episode to say you couldn't recall anything about the episode, right? so you got some instructions that were, well, borderline, that's a problem for them to deal with i guess. but how did you experience that as somebody being called to testify? >> to backpedal slightly on that -- candidly, after january 6th

i was very outspoken in the final days of the administration that we, the administration was completely at fault for what happened that day. my mind speeders outspoken where? >> in the white house. it was not a secret how my content for our -- sort of the fact were complicit and we had, we were the only reason that that they happened. but i speedy you know what, i think we should clap for that. [applause] >> i mean, thank you for this. it's sad that we sort of have -- thank you speedy washington you get a standing ovation for telling the truth. [laughing] >> that's a big part of the reason i decided to read the book because we're in this and this crisis of canof do we needo elect leaders to office and hire people in positions of public service who shouldn't need to be

clapped for telling the truth. comes with a chop it becomes with swearing the oath. all that being said, i just want to point this out to you because i don't want to try to play revisionist history. i was planning to move down to mar-a-lago with the former president, and at the time i felt that i can't he needed the people surrounding him at a felt i could be a sound voice. that fell through. he can't help averill mr. booker generosity is not hises strong suit. that's a big question mark. he kept onve payroll for several months. i took that time to sort of decompress and sort it saw how things were unraveling on capitol hill, knowing full well that if i were called to testify under subpoena or voluntarily, i wanted to be forthcoming with the committee. whatever committee have been formed. but, so when it actually was subpoenaed to testify, i started this mad search for an attorney

because i in my mind i had been in trump world, which was an advantage and disadvantage but i know that accepting something like an attorney from trump world at that juncture, i had worked for at that .10 months to sort separate myself very slowly from the world so that wasn't a target on my back. so i wouldn't appear disloyal. but in accepting something like that is a form of currency. you owe more than just what they expect you to say. all that being said, i was served, i did have the trump appointed counsel and he did receive counsel from that attorney. but also accepted it i accept responsibility for that. but i also think semantically when you look at the cases as they are unraveling now i think of several of my former colleagues and they were not my form a call to come several people who are reported to have

no have trump appointed counsel, and it's sort of, there's a bigger issue here. i was very fortunate to be able to find my incredible legal counsele who i really credit, idle say thisbe lightly, but lie with saving my life. maybe not in like an actual life or death way but saving my life and stealing the back to the right side of history without speedy and his lawyers are 100% pro bono. >> 100% pro bono. [applause] >> and besides that, they offered me and gave me the sense of community and the bonnie, except inside not known for so long. and i felt like an still to this day sometime silica don't deserve. so again i have been very fortunate toy be able to tell y story from the other side now. it's not without people like you and liz cheney and the committee and also my attorneys that gave

me that second chance. >> i just have a couple moreti question for you as a going to ask a few more from the audience. because believe it org not i think we might be running out of time period what was your experience like asa a witness on that day? sometimes people describe to me being a witness like watching themselves from the outside, like the feel a little bit disassociated by it. they feel like it's really happening to someone else, but what was your experience of the day where i should say you acquitted yourself remarkably well and everybody across the board was totally convinced of your candor and your honesty. i think yous change millions the people's minds. [applause] >> thank you.

well, for starters, when i switched legal counsel i was very clear, but i didn't want to testify. not at all. i was looking i will go back up i want to be completely forthcoming. the committee researchers. they gave me my transcripts are we went through line by line. we corrected come with we add a lot of people even went through spelling, spelling corrections, very, very thrill going back to my old transcripts. still didn't want to testify live. they will be able to use this information. to get of the witnesses. when i learned that i would be a live witness i would like the fear of god, no, no, no. don't want to give them my privacy and identity. but it didn't come around to it slowly and give even up une last minute, they'll have to physically push out there. gently push me out of the hold

room. i had made peace with it. i recognize several elements. the was an important to having somebody who hadad been there he was willing to speak truth to the egregious acts that occurred that day. not just on january 6th but afterwards, too. but also it was important for women and little girls to see that we are living in this society where, unfortunately men many years my senior are either avoiding subpoenas or were at the time pleading the fifth and avoiding all forms of accountability. and not to get on a feminist angle here, like we need more women in government for that reason, too. [cheers and applause] but sitting at the witness table i was very afraid, very cognizant that every move i made could and would be scrutinized. but i also had this overwhelming

sense of peace, because i knew that i was doing the right thing and have sitting in front of a dais of people who in my opinion are some of the most moral and ethical politicians, but human beings that are in washington in this era. [applause] so i clap for mr. raskin. [applause] >> well, you're a great witness as a set, and i was thinking when you testified about mark twain, who said if you always tell thehe truth you know of anything to remember, you know? some of thelw people we talk to others had remember what they said. the last time and so on. you came in with the conviction of truth, and i think that communicated really well. well, we need to talk a bit about the future and your future, cassidy hutchinson your company wants to know what

you're going to do. >> me, too. [laughing] >> could you see yourself actually going into politics? is there a little party that fits you anymore? >> your tricky. [laughing] to answer your first question, i write now do not see -- you say go into politics. i still believe that what i'm doing right now is tangential to politics. >> is actually integral to politics okay. i was making the separation between like -- probably not the time for me. >> people asking would you ever run for office yourself? >> i would not say no, because i had said no to a lot of things in my past including testifying life and look where i am.

honestly, i don't't have the ability to have that sort of hindsightt right now. i think what i'm focused on right now is sharing the message in this book, which to me is much greater than donald trump. you know, donald trump is an element to the book but it's like, if donald trump for off the face of the earth tomorrow, there would still be a problem that exists, and it still is poisoning our political systems. i am a firm believer that we need a health the republican party and healthy democratic party company hope there is a date we could sit here and have a very well thought out debate as a republican -- i don't know. so i guess i think it's, i thought it was sometimes i was jaded enough to say i know i'm

going to go move somewhere else and with a very -- what we're facing right now is dangerous, and it's come in my opinion, one of the most grave threats of democracy essays a lifetime, perhaps in recent american history. and it doesn't just require us and congress to pay attention to that. you know, i iop hope with this k and with a platform that i have no, i can help open peoples eyes and hope people will listen. because it's important for more ways than just determining the outcome of the next presidential election. we are quite f literally fightig for the future of our country and our republic. >> and democracy on earth. >> correct. and it's not, we are an experiment we're not g -- figurs guaranteed. >> what is your book called "enough"? >> it's a very subtle question.

[laughing] >> but that's a very nuanced answer. short answer with that, i touched on a briefly earlier. i tried to the book as i experienced my life and how i got to this point. i try not to assign adjectives to people, places, things or events. i try to just tell things like how i experienced them and what mentally crossing things that are processing things at the time period the straightforward answer was enough is i reached a point where enough was enough. itgh wasn't just enough was enoh with my former trump world council for i reached the point where enough was enough of not being who i was, not fulfilling the public servant and myself, who i i saw myself coming to . and becoming. and i've had enough of this era of just livingg this life, and i couldn't do it anymore.

there are more nuanced meanings. i would love to leave it up to the reader to interpret some of those. i also think one other thing of that, jamie, sorry to interject another question. i also want people to know that their voice alone is enough and it doesn't require a mass to come out and say whatever you may say to stick up for yourself. and i would love to give a shout out to liziz cheney who, you kn, i have made credible team of attorneys but liz cheney was really the first person that -- [applause] an extremely courageous individual who has the heart of a founding father and just our love for our country is something i think we all should look towards as well as congressman raskin. but it was liz who really reminded me that it's, like i

have enough and i'm enough to not only speak truth to power, but to hopefully create change. because we can't keep surviving as as a nation as we are. >> that's a beautiful. [applause] >> some people want to know about the watergate figuresno to identify with and a know you make a very special friend in the process. >> mr. butterfield. yes. alex, so i the committee had very gently published pages which has a little bit of a when evening, and i was able to read in real time how far gone i was. i had wanted to get back to the right side of history, and i was thinking about watergate, like that had to be somebody. i knew who john dean was. there are to be somebody else would a similar role to me who didn't play that they consequential role in the hearings -- >> wasn't a lawyer.

>> wasn't a lawyer. so i started googling those who testified. came across alex butterfield and we hadfi nearly identical titles and you were in the office of the chief of staff. he had not written a book. perfect. he testified, he left, he didn't try to make a name for himself. now my face is on the cover of a book. but he did work on this book with bob woodward. so i ordered several copies of it. you could see, i mean i wish we could pass it around embarrassing but he really was the man and a scene so looking back it should it seems obvious but i didn't really have anybody in -- i was in a very dark place in mymp life, period, almost complete isolation. people what was isolated from my former friends and trump world what wasn't the my authentic self with. soth when event this book that alex had worked on with bob woodward, alex became my friend

in these pages and he felt i could relate to him in his journey but also like who he was, and he inspired me to then, you know, start to try to correct course and try to find a second chance. there are many people in this journey what a tribute to what alex is one that he is just another incredible american. it's's unfortunate that that 50 years after watergate we are in a position where wee' did with e results of another corrupt presidency. >> yeah. so, one person asks an interesting question which is how do you have the poise and maturity to handle your job and your testimony? >> because -- >> you are not left at that point. >> meaning speeded trump world or -- >> during the test?

during the test but i was pretty much off. >> well, weren't they still entertaining kind of the delusion that you might watch your words? >> i don't know. i will leave that question to them but from my perspective i think the moment that had retained new counsel theyno probably had a fairly good -- not that iwa would testify live but i would be more forthcoming to be -- interviewed without my former attorney stalled at the time. >> right. >> with one of my good friends alysa fara sarah griffin pn outspoken about january 6th from january 7 forward. so it wasn't probably some big secret although i think, and tell us which the drink probably expected me to remain loyal. >> that's an interesting story about washington, how much government really d does dependn

bright young people who d come n and really do the work. >> not toe belittle, but i'm se you have an incredible staff and maybe not as young as i was. >> younger even. >> everybody thinks, they rely on staffers. it's also important to be able to fight anre apartment to the staffers what you want to aspire to be politicians, to lead by example. >> but, i mean, it's an incredible object lesson in how it was you in that case, it was the young staffers with the ones who are insistingth upon our loyalty to the truth and ethical principle. every might never have known the truth were it not for you and other people in similar situations. .. top levels and continues to this day. and there are still people who believe the big lie, although it's been completely debunked, just in case you think that there are people who still

believe the big and those minds will never change, you know, i think with me coming forward, that was something that i had to accept like there are and movable people but there are people who either might believe what he's saying or they might believe that donald trump is they might believe donald trump is better than joe biden. the not so with platform i have now like all i ask is for people to listen >> i ask for people to listen to me and to listen to people like me, because it is the people who are on the inside, people start to break away and speak the truth. >> yeah. >> but to listen to people like us, who weren't never trumpers, who donald trump would not have considered what he calls rinos and also can see the grave dangers of what we endured at the end and what continues to endure today. i mean, look no further than

truth social and the way some of these cases are playing out. the department of justice has brought the largest case in american history against the former president of the united states, and that's a really sad place for us to be in. but, you know, i hope that people listen because in this next year, it's all of our responsibilities to speak the truth and speak to people in the way they feel welcomed to have those conversations. i know in my position for a while, i felt -- i did want to split away from trump when i saw how egregious and terrible the things we had done were but also was sort of scared to leave because i felt okay if i do leave, i'm going to be questioned and ridiculed, and people are always going to question my intentions, which i think to a degree is fine, and i welcome that, but we can't shame people out of coming forward. >> that's right. that's right.

that's a beautiful way for us to end this. you know, i want to thank you for your moral courage in speaking so candidly and openly about your entire life and your experience and your family and your work and your education. i want to thank you for your love of our beautiful country, and thank you for your patriotism, cassidy, and i want to thank you for your willingness to keep growing and keep learning, and remember, there's always a home for in the democratic party -- [laughter] >> [inaudible]. >> [inaudible]. if you are enjoying american history tv, then sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive the weekly schedule of up coming programs like lectures in history, the presidency, and more. sign up for the american history tv newsletter today and be sure

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