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>> comcast along with these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> good evening everyone. i am the executive director of the adam smith society at the manhattan institute. on behalf of the manhattan institute it is my pleasure to welcome you to tonight's discussion on her new book bad therapy where the kids are not growing up. abigail schreier the development of our children. her book irreversible damage warns of the trans gender ideology among all teenage girls this new book investigation for mental health industry promises to be equally important to parents and all who care about the development of the next generation. as many here know the manhattan institute isca an organization dedicated to keeping american's great cities prosperous, safe and free. to our magazine city journal, with gatherings like this demand

institute amplifies provocative voices like abigail the stand up to conventional wisdom to confront today's most pressing challenges. we are grateful to our supporters and friends here with this evening. your engagement in our community, and for your support makes gatherings like thisis possible. i like to think in particulate particularmanhattan institute te susan and for being heard with us this evening. thank you. [applause] it is also my pleasure to welcome those of you who are new to our community. this is your first manhattan incision event i encourage you to reach out to me or others on our team to find out how you can get more involved. in a minute i'm going to hand things over too emily who is our moderator for the evening who will be leading abigail in conversation before we open up the floor to questions from the audience. but for some introduce our speakers. abigail received thear barbara olson award for excellence and independence in journalism in

2021 her best-selling book irreversible damage transgender courage seducing our daughters was named the best book by the economist the times of london. it is been translated into 10 languages she holds an ab from columbia college where she received the fellowship the university of oxford and from law school. she's written for the manhattan city journal for a number of years. emily is a senior editor at the separate free press use contribute writer or should focus on campus sexual assault on the need for due process but before that she was a longtime contributor where she wrote many topics as well as finger advice columnist dear prudence for 10 years potomac getting abigailil and emily a warm welcome. [applause] >> thank you so much. it's great to be here. i want to cover three basic things in this conversation.

okay. describe the problems that you write about and bad therapy. what is it? how we got here? i may be how we can get out. so what was the spark that started this book? and tell us a couple of the most surprising things you have discovered? sure, it's right to be here. i'm crazy about city journal and the manhattan institute is a joy to write foran them. and of course to be her thermite absolute year old emily it's a great honor. thank you. >> they parodied these things in the press. but the book in some ways is not very surprising. the book says anything that is powerful any intervention that is a powerful can help.

it can also necessarily harm. that is true of any intervention. now how did i get to the claim about the therapeutic interventions our kids are getting customer counted i get here? with the last book i took a look at one phenomenon going on his teen girls like girls in distress were decide there transgender match and raising kids in this generation. i'm concerned about how they turn out i'm not just concerned as an academic i'mus concerned because i want to get it right if there is such a thing. i don't want them to end up sort of, some of the kids you see around who are in terrible distress who cannot seem to function. we need mental health days off of work. that does not mean there aren't people who are in profound

distress we need of help and got them. and frankly they are not getting enough. there are the bipolar patients that are the schizophrenics. my book is not about that. but i am looking at is why the average kid in america part of genz might say when driving past their middle school i can't drive past that. i'm not minimizing ptsd for a kind of the opposite i think it's a really severe serious thing. and i don't think if you're picked on in middle school that you have it generally speaking. but, what i wanted to know was at the question should have as a start out the question, why were the kids who had the most mental health intervention the most of therapy, the most m psychiatric meds the most social emotional

learning, the most coping skills the most mindfulness they should have been the picture of mental health. so why were they and so much distress? i started by taking seriously the idea of their pain was real. i would never call them snowflakes. that is not my orientation toward the rising generation i do not think they are. i think there distress is absolutely real. and i was very concerned to know how did they end up in such a bad distress because it was not obvious from the outside. in the second thing i wondered was provided they have no interest in growing up? why didn't they rush to get their drivers licenses? i just read 56% 18 -- 25 year old living with their parents the lowest unemployment we have seen. it'sme very, very low unemploymt numbers they're living atau home as it seems because they want to or at least content too with their parents.

these were things we would've packed ourselves into an apartment to avoid when i was young. and i think it matters faith that is the thing i think it matters because the underlying thesis of the book is growing up is actually the cure for adolescent angst if they are trapped in this feeling of incapacity there trapped in the feeling of distress they do not feel up to growing up they may never get out of that. click to open the book with a bang or of an anecdote about your 12-year-old son from the conference hands i thinkwo witha >> ache that will not clear up so it was thehe see the pediatrician and what happens in next kind of helps explain the thesis of your book what you just described. so you are there, what happens. >> it's funny i had already written the book pretty much i showed up at urgent care this

summer with my son was having a terrible >> ache. as a send apes or pediatrician was closed on chart local urgent care to make sure it wasn't appendicitis because it had lasted a while. so they said no theyan did a quk test on him and said no he's it's's fine that maybe had a wed bug they sent us home but said before you go is just dehydration. but before you go we like to do a mental health screener were going to ask you toe. leave. i had already written this book and yet i stood up to leave and then i thought i am i leaving? hold on a setback shaft and said cut it please see if mental health screening the man looked shocked because most don't ask to see it and by the way i almost didn't. it was five questions there's a series of escalating questions that turnedtu out to be issued y the national incision of mental health is a federal government agencyas this was a standard fom

for kids eight and up. it's a series of escalating questions about why and whether a kid might want to kill himself. and by the way asking parents to leave the room as part of the protocol right on the website the national institute of mental health division of nih or its affiliated with nih. it was just one more instance when i realized a few things. or i was reminded of a few things. one of the questions was, have you felt like killing yourself today? >> right. >> you think your parents might be better off without you question member my son wasn't there for a suicidal ideation but he was there for >> ache. t,d put them in front of a kid right. they flew in the face of anything we would think was good for kids. now it turns out a lot of psychologists, when i would interview them, say no about we

know that asking about suicide encourage propensity for suicide. okay but these kids are getting deluged. i learned with suicide in a way that we haven't in a way that we haven't seen before, like a push poll for suicide. i'm refreshed that psychiatrists and that is presenting it as a means of coping and the third is

a repetitive mention so even researchers when i askeded about this. maybe that's right and i think that was shortly after that won't makeke a kid want to kill themselves, okay but then but the quantity of the surveys. they were explaining it very often to the kids in terms of the surveys as a wave of coping. they were doing a lot of things

that the research showed was the responsible thing to do. the surveys very often are written by the cdc and that is a theme of the book the psychological literature iss prettyth clear on the harms of therapeutic intervention and there are those that therapy can cause and there's all sorts of research on this. what the practitioners are doing is flying in the face of it.

the smartphone in 2012 getting put inen the hands of children s the key moment in the decline of kids mental health, but do you have a timeline i know you think the smartphone as part of it but what you're describing is shocking. the idea that she would be asked these kind of questions is appalling to me. what happened. how did this sweep across the country enter schools and become this bad therapy become standard fare? >> i completely agree with the idea that social media is very bad for kids and absolutely with a major factor in the decline of adolescent mental health.

i think this is another instance there were many things that play and i will go back to my last book. it's true social media played a large role convincing girls that they were transgender and that in almost every case of an adolescent girl i talked to or parent i talked to they had a therapist who played a big part in the revelation they were

taken when they had a moment in middle school to a psychotherapist who explored what might be causing their distress and they would explore many things and that stayed in the back of my head the whole time i took her to a therapist and they said that you are not t transgender, middle school card. so i just think there are a lot

of things going on. so you describe a lot of phenomenon in this book which i read and it's fabulous. everyone read it. do you list ten ways if you are honest about it and straightforward it isn't exactly

happy. you're feeling the stress of some kind or another. there's all kinds of things on our mind. but especially in america and if you think about it just being asked how are you feeling. i can see you are concentrating on this interview.

if it was enoughpr to produce negative t responses, so worryig about their feelings, telling them to self monitor it and pay attention is so compassionate but produces a negative reaction because if you thought about it most of life that involves a certain amount of repression being a good friend, a good spouse, getting work done that's

actually how we live. the great scholar of playwrights disparagingly about the transformation of play in america and you write about how you think that is a key to our problems here and you say that we all need danger, discovery and dirt. he is done wonderful.

i remember the textbook in college. the play is completely changed because we monitor it and survey it. we stop all the risk and all the danger and it turns out they don't know what their limits are and they become afraid of all things that are not scary there's something else that the evolutionary beneficial sort involves risk and danger the kind of mom doesn't want to hear about that stuff produces short-term joy and long-term contentment. that kind of discovery and

capacity, i can climb to the top of those monkey bars, i did it. it's hard to do today with your mom or naomi or the recess monitor nervously telling you to come down but actually it gets allocated to test what he can do and feel good about that and we are robbing kids of that. the lesson i want to talk about is the rise of psychotropic medication for children. you say changing the brain chemistry of your child is one of the most profound things you can do and once kids get on these medicines, they could possibly be on it for decades, for life. and they are put on after a cursory analysis. the parents sign off. say more about that and why

aren't more parents saying no? >> one of the big ones is parental authorities. i think they were afraid of inflicting trauma and afraid of asserting their own authority. it doesn't mean being cruel or unloving it just means rule. and when you don't lay down rules for a kid not only do they end up less suppressed but they also can't be trusted. when they have rules, eventually you learn they understand the values and you send them into the world and you can trust them that if you never laid down rules you are always sort of hovering. and i think that you're always hovering and they are dis-

regulated. you can traumatize a child. you still need to control their behavior because they are acting out in class. you don't get to advocate that. they can't be screaming or running around the classroom. i think what should be a last resort which doesn't mean it's never necessary but what should be a last resort is the first. so many young women identify our young people identify as a sexual not because they actually would be but because they've been on ssris for so long. that's just one of many examples of the way that getting in their

and changing w a child why theyy are still developing. taking the antidepressant or stimulant or other things that one might need even a child might need. she was doing the surgery for the reparative work and one of the things she told me is what itturns out when you remove

somewhat it doesn't just diminish their desire for sex they have more trouble making intimate relationships so when you get in there with a medication and totally alter api team that's still developing, who could be going through a phase or a hard time it's a lot to be doing. there are serious interventions. before you go down that road you turn your results upside down to avoid it if you can. if you can and there are behavioral modifications that you can do to helpe with adhd.

the founder of a great organization that is trying to bring back freedom and free play so if you're interested on that subject let'sso talk about the rise of social andti emotional learning you document how this permeates our classrooms it's not just something outside of the curriculum. it's being put into the curriculum. what is this. do you know how this started and

once started, how did it spread all over the whole country and tell us what it is. >> i think it started about 15 years ago and like a lot of things that aren't actually very good and have some harmful consequences it started out potentially with good intentions. some people dispute that by the way but i try to give the benefit of the doubt. i think they have good intentions. i think i read recently 95% of

schools had that and the advocates are so impassioned about this many of the teachers will say we should do social emotional learning in every class. every class should be about emotional regulation and thinking about your feelings. it's easier than teaching algebra. and they incest and i interviewed people who are big advocates and the social emotional learning is just going to help with skills like mindfulness and all the things you've told us we want. they say that it's not group therapy. it looks a lot like group

therapy because the law of the in order to talk about emotions what do you have to do. that usually doesn't generate as much excitement and discussion. there's so much to say about this. it had something to do with the ways theyy were not distressed because they were raised differently. something to do with their parents and that sold that hypothesis and then i attended this conference so i kind of wanted to know what were the

public schools doing to support schools mental health and i realized therapy far from being somewhat a minor phenomenon can find you less than half across an entire generation they were being asked to share their pain all the time and talking about their trauma all the time. it wasn't an accident that they were talking in these terms. theywa talked about their social anxiety it was psychopathology they pickedd up for mental healh professionals and many of them in schools. so she begins every school day by asking kids this thing she picked up from a meme on youtube which is based on getting burns

and the question is it a bones day or no bones day so do you think it's a good day today or bad day today. why on earth would you be in class that day. so i interviewed this absolutely brilliant and wonderful woman the professor of uc irvine who was one of the greatest living psychologists. did it was a delight toon interview her about one of the things she told me is often in the sessions and we know group therapy often comes with affects like making people sadder and more worried and words about the loss of a loved one. she said it's like a sort of memory poker or sadness goes on where you think about you just shared a memory that is sad. if i say something minor it's going to bore everyone so i'm going to one up that.

this is a natural human response to sharing our pain. you don't want to say something like now i am and embarrassed because mine was so minor. you naturally one up and we were doing this with kids effectively in school. >> where is your courage from? >> in our world today to describe what is, what really is, examine it and present it requires courage. in both the books it demonstrated that. where do you get that and how do you spread more of what you got across the country. >> firstu of all, thank you. i really appreciate that. i don't see myself that way for whatever it's worth. i see myself with somewhat of a

disagreeable in the psychological personality type. i guess meaning i tend to not consider people's feelings always and just say it fit my personality and every ircumstance was to say what think and not always be thinking about what everyone's feelings are. but the reason i bring that up is important. some kids were more disagreeable, some kids colored within the lines and did what they were told, some kids like math and some didn't and somehow we would come together and create this amazing society because there were different jobs to do. a lot of things i run personally is my personality wasn't always great with all of my

girlfriends. you don't always want to say everything that you're thinking and there's no questions i've heard feelings before. but there's this rule for me because there were areas in which it was good to tell the truth and i just think it's good fore our kids to know as well that we don't have to diagnose and medicaid everything because who knows why someone may come to love our kids, a spouse. who knows what job might be perfect for them because of a quirk and before we go in and delete it with medication, it doesn't mean don't make them responsible or good people, teach them to be kind and good citizens. but before we go and delete what might just be a quirky part of their personality, we still have good use for it. we even get some pleasure for it. maybe the world needs it.

>> let's move to possible solutions. do you describe a parenting style that you think could be helpful as an antidote to this gentle parenting and you call it bad to style parenting and make the point you do not have to be a dad to do dad the style of parenting which you summarize as knock it off and shake it off. talk more about that and if you are old enough that style of parenting sounds very familiar to you, so where did it go and should we bring it back? >> i think we should bring it back and here is why. it's not that everyone needs to say it to a kid in every instance. we remember times when we were inn. serious pain but someone we tried to tell about it didn't pay attention or listen. those are those sort of things

that stick with us and make us over correct. we've done these things were we don't realize he was sick this time or actually injured. they need to hear it from somebody. they will throw all their worries of their parents and some things just to see if they are important and the girls who are bringing to the therapists and mom i think i have gender dysphoria some of them need to hear know you don't.

some of them were testing stuff out and kids do this all the time. he was an african-american kid in his dad was next to me and i heard him utter he's fine get up and the boy did. and he was fine. and i thought i haven't heard that in a long time. that faith that you can keep going. they need our faith to keep going because they don't know it. they start off thinking every scratch is a major deal. and when m we minimize the more serious things we areoi going through that dad just lost his job or things to actually worry

about because we want to take every pain of there's super seriously, sometimes we magnify the monster and that is what i'm worried about. it's not the kids that are anorexic and w desperately need help. of course we know what to do. we know that a child needs treatment when they are seriously ill. the question is what do you do for all the scratches because they are going to get a lot of them. we shouldn't be telling them that it is. so you have three young kids who are going through the school systems where presumably this is happening. what do you do and what can a parent to do and can individual parents do it alone. it's almost a risk at being the obstructive parent against what everyone else is being taught.

do parents have to organize, parents have to do all sorts of things butut this is the issue m the most optimistic about. we can fix this. the over medication of bummed out kids, the over psychopath followed lysing of bombed out worried kids that we can fix. here's what we need to do and this is a pervasive problem i saw with the last book. we are not teaching our kids what we believe. the house signs in the house we believe and they are very showy and the silly. her teacher does, her school counselor does. why don't you tell her what you believe and that is true which is don't tell a kid that i'm not

saying don't tell a kid you can never god to therapy or that is a bad or a weak thing to do. i would never say that. but what i'm saying is you can tell a kid you're going to be fine. there's nothing wrong with you because most of the time there isn't. there's a huge variation in humanity and it's amazing. it should be embraced because we know that little bit of weirdness is what their grandfather had and he did some great things and it might have beent annoying to people at soe times that he was heard or whatever the problem mayn, have been. that's not all going to be roses. we know that. we don't need to rush ahead and make it easy.

we need to tellh them this is what your grandfather went through. yourge grandfather, and that's e proof that you can get through it. >> arent you doing different things with your kids with most ofan their friends do your kids have phones, do they have unlimited internet access, arere they on teams or out building forts in the backyard? the effort to get phones out of school at a minimum during the school day is so important and such a no-brainer is almost embarrassing we haven't done it sooner. it needs to happen. i'm behind this 100%. i think there are wonderful people out there fighting it's fantastic and i really hope it is successful.

there is enough phones out there that if they need a phone they can borrow one. that's how many there are individually if we get them a phone we haven't decided they are going to go to school and they have to make a decision what to do about that if we get them the phone it will either be some kind of flip phone or kosher phone. these things actually exist. but it limits if they need to communicate for school i'm not t sure about it.

given high expectation, tell them your values you can trust them more easily with all kinds of things and let go of some of our neurosis so we spent a generation obsessing over their happiness and do almost nothing. we almost never thought about that it will make my kids stronger. do they need it, will they will it make them stronger, not so great at math. i talked to parents. one i talked to i called her angel in the book but she said the worst thing she ever did is get her son in academic accommodation to get outul of taking the math tests. he was a little slow to them as she often had one or two

leftover math problems. the most important thing is they are in the best decision to know the answer. they have some sense having raised the kids knowing what their kids need better than someone who saw them for a half-hour session or just met them at the startd of seventh grade and wants the kids to stop askingte questions. the milestones for kids maturity and independence and where we are crushing those is no big deal ifyo you are a 16-year-old lipped goes to the grocery store and pick some soup groceries but it's a big deal if your

9-year-old does, like your 9-year-old. tell them about that. so, one of the things you talk about before courage and i think of myself as having fear but slightly different. i'm not afraid of telling the truthh for whatever reason. i'm afraid of a world in which lives prevail. one of the things i learned from talking tont many parents. they stop wanting to leave the cage. i kept talking to parents who didn't let their 9-year-old explore the neighborhood and then when they were 13 she couldn't o get them out of the

house. i am more afraid of that, and i hated when my kids leave the house. it's's not that i'm so brave its that i feel like. the parents are the source, so i have to be brave for them because they will be stronger in the world that they know theyn can handle if they feel they are not terrified becausese you were late top pick them up because they have the sense of i can talk to a stranger i know approximately where my house is and how to get there. they will be so much stronger if they can do these things. that is a great point to turn to the audience for questions. we have people with microphones, so please ask your question into the microphone and over here.

>> a statement and a question. i have an 8-year-old, she's in third grade. very much into this social, emotional learning, so a little anecdote last week we were on the holiday break and my daughter just loved unstructured play like i want to play school so she took an hour to set up her plan and so i go in and she said now we are going to start the day and talk about our feelings. [laughter] she's in third grade, so naming your emotions, it's called the ruler which is its own curriculum that's been ruled out with all the fanfare.

how are you feeling today. is this what you really do. and she said yeah this is. are you read for angry, graham, i'm like who came up with these colors. they are almost arbitraryo concepts, so it's a very real. but i want to take it a step further. what they are going through his kindness. have you seen this in your research now like not only social and emotionalal learning but being kind to the degree that worries me especially having a girl, kindness above all. >> first of all what is interesting and i loveth the comment. one of the interesting things about kindness and the way they

push it, it is all therapeutic. they explain it in terms of mental health. bee kind because they are happr people. that's not why you needd to be kind. and no one should tell a kid that. you're lying to them. i hear the sociopaths enjoy thei' trade. [laughter] but also more importantly, that's not why you're kind. your kind because it's the right thing to treat a person kindly, these are virtues. but there is something else i learned when i was researching this wonderful book against empathy and the book shows he is an academic psychologist, an amazing book but he says that empathy, he says it's not possible to empathize with more than two people at the same time, more than two conflicting people at the same time.

so actually psychologically it has a narrow aperture and you're likely to preference the people in front of you and is often coincides with cruelty. that goes along with fairness and justice. you may treat everyone fair but if empathy is your guide you are likely to preference the people in front of you and show greater cruelty to those outside. i don't think there's a better example of this in society today than lighting the biological boys and girls sports. we should the transgender identified boy and who cares how he completely wrecks all the girls achievements. there are records and maybe even jeopardizing the fitness and safety because we are seeing themrlrl get injured. the gentleman over there.

in doing your studyha have you found there is a link between the number of children in the household and the prevalence of thein phenomena that you're describing? >> which phenomena? >> the whole therapeutic approach. >> there's a few studies that sort of touched on this that i could talk about but i would just say having more kids seems to be really good for kids. it turns out it's for other kids. you're not being crushed the moment someone teases you and calls it bullying if you have a bunch of siblings who regularly call you stupid and see that your fine

that is important and that there's another thing too. i think they did this research where during the pandemic that turned out college kids, college graduates that are sent home, the ones who went back to the larger family even if they were not wanting to be there because i wanted to be back in college and they ended up happier than the kids who isolate' and it

didn't matter that they were not to be back and in her kitchen and under rules still ended up with much better mental health. >> >> thank you so much, so interesting. my question is that now not only are all kids in therapy but adults are in therapy. and in every corporate environment we also have all of these social, emotional rules we have to follow. what is that doing to us as adults, all the people in this room? >> i read about kids for a reason because i'm interested but also i tend to think that adults they can be trusted to know what's right for them.yo so just my big prejudice if you think that you want to be in therapy or if you think you need to therapy, maybe you do. butt other effects of therapy, o

question. there's a great deal of research as i said. and here are a few classic things that can happen in therapy. people can be no made more anxious and more depressed, rehashing a worry or fear even having produced one weekly. meeting with my therapist, there was something i was upset about this week and but it can also undermine relationships with spouses and parents and more parental alienation meaning people cutting off their parents than we've ever seen. therapists are no doubt playing a role. i interviewed a psychologist that is an expert that deals with alienation and he shared with me and there's a great quote he is a brilliant and

wonderful guy and he gave me a quote at the beginning of the book and said if i had to tell parents one thing that is going to make themie the angriest, and i'm paraphrasing, as the therapists are going to see it sometime. so, we know about therapy can do all these things. but the other thing it can do and this is what we are seeing in the generation it can make you feel like you can handle your life. the habit of checking in with the therapist weekly can make you second guess that you can make a decision and do things on your own without checking in, without asking permission or strategizing. it can do this to adults, but i interviewed so many -- you're seeing this across the generation this lack of efficacy that isde a sign of therapy buta woman that nailed it and i call her out in the book she is a high school senior. she'd been in therapy since she

was six. her parents divorced so they put her in therapy. she didn't have a problem per se but her parents divorced and what you told that's do. she stayed in therapy until she was 17. are you on any medication? no. she said she had trouble with anxiety. okay. what are you working on with your therapist? i'm going toto college, i just t into college so i'm working on making friends. i want to do a good job making friends so we are strategizing. this is what we are seeing. they don't know that they can make friends without the therapist. they are afraid to try. they don't know what they can do because they've left people to be experts on all sorts of things teenagers used to just trust themselves to try out and you want to know why we are not seeing in my view ceo founders in this generation because millennial's we saw tons of them, facebook, snapchat, spot

if i. so where are all the gins the tech founders? the' are afraid to try. they are afraid to go out on their own because they've always been told before you do that you can get hurt. check in with an adult. check in with mom. yes? >> thank you for writing this book and the great conversation. i want to go back to something youil wrote. you asked abigail about how she is may be parenting differently than people around her and abigail, you talked about that different value that you have that you want to instill into your children. right now my values are in direct conflict with the values of the school my kids go to, the other parents. so i have to say to my kids here's what i believe, but other people don't believe that and then we have to sort of strategize about how we hide or

shareso our belief systems. so i'm wondering if you can talk about that because that is a weird thing to communicate to my kids even that essentially we live in a kind of left wing public school situation. >> so here's what i would say to you. your kid is going to base a lot of people who are not afraid to communicate what they think is right to your kid, so before you send them out there, it isn't we think this but other people feel differently. it's this is right because i'm your mom and i know what's right. and this is right. i don't know what's right for everyone. i know what's right for you because i'm your mom. remember when we used to say that two kids and they marched off and for a period they believed itab and then they decided we were wrong about everything because kids do but in the back of their head they had that voice and it sometimes stopped them from

doing a lot of bad things. even though they really were mad at mom, sometimes if we buried that in their heads, they wouldn't try the drugs even though they really wanted to, because they couldn't get that voicee out saying i'm going to kill you if you do that. right? i think that the ability to tell our kids right from wrong before they hear the inversion is so important about all kinds of things, but weak think about freeee speech. they shouldn't not know that it's important as an american to cherish free speech. yet we send them off assuming they will kind of get that value in college, but they are getting the opposite because they are going in and being proselytized to and i think that this should be true of all kinds of things we think are good and right for them. some of them they will reject. some of them will get lost. it's okay.

we will get something is wrong about what we think is right for them. that's okay. and this is very old research going back to the 1960s, kids need the structure, they need the rules and unfortunately, and i've talked to many interesting people who told me this and including experts and things like radical movements when they don't get more clarity at home sometimes they go looking for it from radical sources. that's a great place to end because our time is up so thank you for the question. [applause] thank you all so much for coming. [applause]

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