and at 9:00 p.m. eastern presidential story teddy troy talks with their relationships and power dynamics between titans of industry and u.s. presidents. going back to the late 19th century in his book the power of money. and then at 10:00 p.m. eastern on after words, yale university professor timothy snyder author of on freedom argus freedom is often misinterpreted and offers hi thoughts on what freedom is and isn't. he is interviewed by george washington political science professor and author elisabeth anker. watch book tv every sunday on cspan2. and a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anyte apple tv.org. ♪ the house will be in order. cook this year's he spent five years of covering congress like no other.

since 1979 been your primary source of capitol health balance unfiltered coverage of government. taking you to where the policy is debated and decided all with the support of america's cable company. c-span, 45 years and counting. powered by cable. >> tonight, we are honored to help launch a brand-new book. in fact a book that will be officially released on may 1 by an author who has been part of our american antiquated society community for many years. robin bernstein is a dylan professor of american history professor of african and african-american studies and studies of women, gender, sexuality at harvard university. she is the author of racial innocence, performing american childhood from slavery to civil rights which won five awards including best book prizes from the new england american studies association, the association for

theater in higher education and the international research society and children's literature. for her first book, robin held jay and deborah last of fellowship here at aas 2008 and 2009. i will also add, that professor bernstein has been a crucial advisor to aas current neh grant historic children's voices. after robin bernstein talks for a bit shall be joint in conversation by kevin kevin is that rice family professor of teaching excellence in english at brown university praise the author and editor of four books most recently the sovereignty of quiet beyond resistance and black culture. and black aliveness or a poetics of being. black has been awarded to prizes the james russell lowell prize for modern language association and the pegasus award for poetry

from the poetry foundation. we are honored and pleased to welcome both robin bernstein and kevin here with us this evening. i'll turn the podium over too robin bernstein welcome it. [applause] >> thank youi all so much. i am so thrilled to be here. thank you all for coming out tonight on this beautiful day. thank you. thank you scott casper for this lovely introduction. andss stephanie for making this event possible. i think tied pool bookshop for supplying books for tonight's event. i also want to thank c-span for sharing this conversation with their viewers on american history tv. i think the american antiquarian society at large which is been one of my most important intellectual homes since i had that fellowship here in 2008 and

2009. i was here for only one month. in that month was completely transformative. simply transfer my first book racial innocence performing americangh childhood from slavey to civil rights. the expertise and generosity of the staff. the astounding resources and the camaraderie of the other fellows all enabled me too write a book that i could not have imagined otherwise. so many thanks. those who covered who is joined in conversation tonight. kevin has shaped my thinking since 2012 he publishes luminous book the sovereignty of quiet beyond resistance and blackac culture. 2018, i came to brown to share early work from what would becomed challenge kevin respondent with thoughts andnd questions that pushed me too think in new ways about william

freeman and his family. being in conversation with kevin tonight feels like a gift and homecoming. thank you kevin quashie. i began writing freeman's a challenge because two moments of surprise. the first surprise happened when by chance i found a footnote about a theatrical staging black on white murder. this is in the city of auburn which is in central new york state. i wa' astounded. and here is why. my fields of expertise include racial formation and theater performances through. so what i knew from both of these fields was that in the mid- 19th century, white people absolutely did not want to see any representation black on white violence on stage. it was too terrifying produce to disturbing. it could not be contained within

the framework of entertainment. answer for that reason it simply was not present on the american stage. i will give you an example to show you how not present it was. when people perform our fellow it has black on white violence. people would bend over backwards. to avoid showing that separate one of the things they do would do, white performers was performed the role of othello as an oriental eyes character as swarthy and distinctly not american and certainly not african-american. this is how much white people did not want to see these images on stage. so,ew when i found this footnoti knew something very strange had happened to make a white people behave in a way that was so different from other white people at the same time. so what i asked was, what

happened in auburn in 1846 to cause such unusual, such unexpected behavior? i startedje researching the crie that was the subject of the theatrical performance on us or with the man who was at the center of it named william freedman. i quickly learned he was an afro native teenager who was convicted in 1840 these words a document despite a lack of evidence he sentenced he was convicted and sentenced to fiv years in the auburn state prison. the auburn state p was distinctive because it enclosed factories or prisoners were leased to private companies. usually for 30 cents a day. the prison pocketed all of this money. the person received no cut he was forced to manufacture animal

promises toes die silk and make corporate goods were sold throughout new york state to consumers. this is my second surprise. i thought convict leasing in new york in the 1840s? and factories? like many people, i associate with convictou leasing with the post- civil war south and also with agricultural labor. i was familiar with important works like michelle alexander's the new jim crow and douglas blackburn slavery by another name. these books along with films suggest profit driven practices began with the civil war, after the civil war the end of southern slavery and the passing of the 13th amendment was famously stated neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist in the united states except for crime. in fact convict leasing existed

in the north decades before the civil war. it developed in thent context of northern not southern slavery. the end of northern not southern slavery. the auburn state prison work william freeman was incarcerated develop this practice. so this projectwh began with two surprises. took these two surprises in, a question emerged which did the surprises of any relationship to each other? the practice of convict labor in the auburn state prison somehow lead to white people behaving in auburn in such an unusual way? to figure out the answer to this question i wrote freeman's challenge the murder that shook america's original present for profit. w so who was william freeman? william freemanup grew up in auburn and the black neighborhood of new guinea. he was born in 1824 into

auburn's most prominent black family. his enslaved grapants were revered as the founders of new guinea william freeman grewp in a close knit lively social world organized on private gatherings, church, antislavery action, work.ased education and but alongside william g freeman somethingan else was growing tht was the auburn state prison. the auburn state prison internationally famous because it innovated a novel form of incarceration. unlike other prisons at the time the auburn prison was not established primarily to punish or to confine or to be gained people rather it was built by businessmen for the explicit purpose of stimulating economic development. the building of this prison in 1816 caused $20000 in state funding immediately to flow into

auburn. and at the time auburn was a tiny little village with fewer than 2000 people. $20000 is the equivalent of half a million dollars in today's money if you can imagine a tiny little village with 2000 people in all this that you have what isal now half a million dollars flowing income it's going to transform everything. and that is exactly what happened. this was the plan from the beginning paid the builders goal had nothing to do with justice, or reform. their goal was to transform auburn from a village into a city. and that is what happened. the prison prison was a business built on the banks of t alaskan outlet you can see or hear this river, it was built on the banks of the outlet for the explicit purpose of powering ctories. even beforet, the prison wasn't

bu that wasmagine to enclosed factories for t purpose of manufacturing on goods. indeed, this land right here is sold to the state for a 1 dollar eed states that a dm it willuilt and you can see the dam right there. ato dam would be built in ordero power t factories inside the prison and also to power the private businesses of the men who sold this land for a dollar. created this prison viewed as a vehicle by which to soak up state funds, stimulate commerce, build the banking and waterways. they reimagine as an infrastructure for capitalism. what became supported as the auburn system of incarceration. the auburn system of incarceration has a number of

characteristics. the prison ran through a system of extreme social isolation. the men who were imprisoned and auburn were put in solitary confinement every single. night. and during the day they worked in factories. they workedy together in these factories. but they were not allowed to speak to each other at all ever. they were not even allowed to look at each other's faces at all ever. so this was an extreme social isolation. people could go and auburn literally for years without speaking a word. without looking at another human face. of course people did find ways to communicate. of course people did find ways to look at each other's faces. but that was extremely risky because another characteristic of auburn, another

characteristic of the auburn system was extreme physical violence. the violence wasn't necessary to enforce the extreme social isolation because this is inhumane. this is unhuman. they were confinement every night. andta orkin factories. work in factories. what's really important to understandun is the purpose of e social isolation the purpose of the silence was productivity. the goal was to increase productivity and the concept behind the isolation was not punishment. the concept was how to control people and get them to work as much as possible but that was the concept behind the extreme violence as well. so the auburn system is widely known to scholars that have proven history one of the key ideas i hope comes through in the book is what the system was

for. it was a system that relied on torture. it was a system that relied on inhumane practices all for the purpose of manufacturing. all for the purpose of making money. it absolutely worked. so, here is what the prison look like outside. you can see it looks like a giant factory. becausehat's basically what it was prettyin wand to point out a couple aspects o this. first of all, everywhere you say smokestack, that is marking the location of aac factory. soou can count these smokestacks you kno exactly how many factors that were in the prison. they were all factories are r by private companies leasing prisoners. the other thing i wan to point out i about this image is the locomotive in the bottom left-hand corner. th train tracks actually grew

in relation to the prison bringing raw material to the prison. they are taking goods away from the prison. they were also bringin tourists to and from the prison break the for theprison was actually makig additional money to tours and believe it or not is something talk about moret later. and the last thing i wanted point out about that train besides the way itfr marks the infrastructure of capitalism, as locomotives were actually built inside the prison. locomotives were one of the sellable commodities that were built by prisoners in the auburn state prison. so, i would like to share a slice of freeman's daily experience in the prison. one other thing that's important to note is the extreme social isolation was designed to reduce workers, men, two machines.

and that was u asked of the language that was used to bring the prisoners should be like machines. it was all designed to dehumanize and maximize productivity. so i'm going to show you i'm going to share with you a little bit that made that happen. >> every morning the other men were martian to the prison yard. they emptied their night tubs were short to be used as a bath bathroom into the underground tanks. they rinse them and pump water and set them aside than that rejoined the lockstep this is the lockstep it's a form of marching veryd csely designed to prevent men from talking to each other or from seeing each other's faces. they rejoined the lake lockstep that rejoined factories. each chamber generating a different shade ofmoke as raw material began smolder or

as men peeled off to assume that workstations line dwindled. the last stop was of freeman's shop there a it's a gust of dust 72 men made animal harm rnesses and hardware. 1841 was the first year there he and others built 7000 animal harnesses hundreds of saddles total market value of almost $32000. the contractor bought the labor for fifth that amount just over $7000 less than 35 cents per man per day. his job was to file rough iron smoothing in preparation for a lacquered finish called your panning. alongside nine other filers burnish the surfaces of bustles

and other hardware for saddles. treatment felt every morning for two hours that march to the mess hall f for half-hour breakfast, marched best, filed more, dinner, marched, filed. every movement regimented. every day the same. another prisoner described this life quote each morning when it seated myself in the shop and cast a look around me up on things too familiar with my fate my impression has been accompanied with a sigh, i'm here yet. freeman resisted his forced labor from the start. he was taken a lot of different ways it was working as little as possible right reducing his productivity and resisted by clowning around which came with numerous physical risk. he made other people laugh this was a very risky but humanizing

thing to do. he also resisted by telling the guards point blank that he did not want to work. he felt it was unfair he was being forced to work as he put it for nothing. he demanded wages. his claim was simple but challenged auburn's defining idea he insisted he was not a machine, not a slave but instead a citizen with the rights, a worker. upon his release from prison he pursued his claims through legal means he appealed to magistrates who mocked and dismissed him. and then william freedman turned to violence. he committed quadruple murder that terrified andd bewildered. ensued ande trial got very vague, very fast it

made national headlines. one of the reasons why it got so big so fast was that william henry stewart was then best known as the governor of new york defended him pro bono. and we note 20 yearsar later activists would become the secretary of state to abraham lincoln he wouldn't brokered the sale of alaska if you've ever heard of stewart's folly, that is him. that was in the future however afraid the prosecutor was jon was the son of the recent president martin van buren. this was a clash of the titans it got very big very fast daily transcripts of the trial daily telegraph i got published the trial attracted the commentary of walt whitman, of course in greeley entirely clear about why he killed he wanted

back pay, and if he couldn't have it, he would have payback. but no one, the prosecution or the de >> the prosecution where the defense, wanted to hear the challenge to the system. because the auburn system was the engine behind auburn's prosperity and by this point of the auburn system it's a presentable was actually the major engine behind new york's prosperity and also a major player in party politics. the prison was very important to a lot of different people and nobody wanted to hear that it was wrong to make people were for co-pay. if the nobody wanted to hear it, in particular they did not want to hear it and so what they did, to not here this very clear critique, they could not here, but they did not what they did is that they invented their own story.

in order to drown out freeman was actually saying. and they could not hear it in an effort it to silence freeman's critique of incarceration, they developed two stories, which were both liable that within relatively goggles. the first level, that they developed in order to doubt out the challenge to the present, said was later be called the black social pathology bottle this became a century and a half of will and 12 seconds later, he came reallyto important to repot and so stuart argued it, that big got killedha because of what was then become old social pathology. and also the unreliable created by the prosecution. i was liable of innate black criminology and that, was the story was told in the theatrical

performance that was in the footnote that account is a price me so much. white people in auburn, wanted so urgently to deny the challenge to the prisons that they would actuallyct rather see black on white violence that here that challenge. they were using the disturbing of like white violence, as a distraction from something field even more disturbing. even more threatening. which w is what he was saying about the present in their midst and these liable were amplified and disseminated stories about freeman's theater literature and visual images and above all, the press and then of course, black people have you figure out ways to live. with these emerging ideas. they forged many strategies includingg what kevin called

quiet and i hope this is something that we can talk about in a few minutes. william freeman story is not over, today we although the racist ideas that incubate in this trial the upper state prison itself, still exists. it is now known as the auburn collection all facility. it is the oldest continually ering maximum-security prison in the united states. manufacturing continues to define it. today, all new york state license plates are now manufactured the upper collective correctional facility. the people manufacture new york state license plates, they are literally walking in william freeman's footsteps. in the freeman story is not over. for the portion of it actually might end literally next five weeks. there is a bill that is u for the new york state legislature

and coming up in may and there are two bills comell there comig up. one is called th— new york back in the realize that using slavery to refer to the slavers a controversial thing and something that we can talk about that is what this bill is called. with this bill does is basically says thatay no one will be forcd work in prison inew york stat any parcel institution new york state does nott tak away the labor coming it is something away the opportunity to work for people who want to, but this simply is to take away the possibility of being forced to work because of that's exactly what william freeman he objected to. and there's a second bill, which is called thefo fairness and opportunity act, for incarcerateded workers. this bill addresses the second part freeman's critiques, freeman wanted normally to be

not forced to work, he wanted an opportunity to build a life for himself and so the way he wanted wages, he wanted not only wages but everything that he can forgive me wanted economic stability, dignity, justice, he wanted self-definition as a free man. the humane is self and is taken bill addresses that part freeman's challenge that he wantedwa dignity and is working wanted wages that could enable him to n build a life. in these two bills for the new york state be for the new york state legislature right now they're delivering as message into the 21st century pretty is time to listen and to act pretty so i ask you, to consider going it's a wonderful organization that is limiting the charge to pass these two bills.

find out how you can support these bills and together, we can finally and forced labor in prisons and u.s. cities have thank you. [applause] [applause] >> how are you? >> thank you so much for being here on great and is an honor to be here with you. >> thinking i hope that everybody is closing thank you so much for that introduction. i will say just briefly, that this is not just a magisterial book. and by that i mean, the musician david crosby is famous for saying that he loved things that were better made they had to be. and when you've done this book is taken a really complicated story in the way that every story about race in america is

complicated because of our compounded incapacities of facing this thing and you just found that narrative way of trying to witness what is difficult. so what an incredible incredible book and i am so glad that your people will get to experience it, congratulations and is a gift to all of us. and so you said as he was speaking, you said you mentioned at the kind of isolation and the one that you could even think of the metaphoric silences that were reverberating across the story, just in the prison, in terms of human and freeman's and woody's able to say about what he did and people are able to hear and not willing to hear

maybe not willing to understand could we talk a little bit more about how is youis doing the research for this book, how we think about how the voice and expressiveness is operating across the story. >> will thank you so much for that question and thank you so much for being here and such an honor to have this conversation with you and i've learned so much and i'm so grateful for him being here. one of the world there were two prime directives as i wasre researching, two things that is always trying to do and one was to hear william freeman's voice and i was always trying to find his voice and he never but he never wrote anything and he never wrote out historian he also did not testify in any of the trials. so everything that we have from him, is filtered through people who heardk him speak and it wasa

lot of white people but also a lot about people and people in his family, said with a heard and now of course every single one of those people was biased in every one of those people headed agenda and so the reasons toit not unlevel of anyone story about whathe freeman said in a y that i thought to hear him was by listening process stories and so if many people world describing the same set of events and if they all said things that i code each other, and harmonize with each other coming likely that was true. so f the first directive is alws listen to the voice not for freeman bit of his family and he had a really interesting family learned a lot about them most of them did not the records and so is always trying to find with

their perspective was that they had to sayou about themselves ad really profound moment in the research and i was thinking if only they had written and i thought well itt is right and wo have written in various ways and i just need to find the writings in a need to find it in the right way. one day i realized the name, name that the family chose for themselves the surnames because when one man freeman's grandparents became free come the could've named themselves in any think of the good evening themselves after their former is labor pleasant people did that they did not they chose to name themselves freeman. i realized that is their autobiography and in one work, freeman and that is what they wrote this the mostmo important thing that i can hear. so that was one directive within the other, the other prime directive was to try to infer as

little as possible. i don't have access william freeman's inferiority and i don't have access to his ecology. and i never wanted to overestimate my access to who he was on that level and so missing prime directive was always a focus on what he did and what the experience and when they know theed experience predict there were moments when i was writing this that i was asking myself, this moment in the story, but it freeman see in this moment in the story, freeman here were not here because he was at one point beaten so badly while he was imprisonedat that he actually became definite. so what can you hear it will getting out here and will pretty see it will getting spell and touch. and what did he say. i was trying to deal with silence and trying to find what

he could find a gun no further and not infer things i didn't actually have evidence for and i try to really let some silences just be silences. >> this morning the strength of the project think because, through the those moments where repeatedly freeman to me if i get this correctly he said repeatedly, twope things, as people are asking him questions, why did you do this. or saying things about the trial, he said i don't know. there were moments where you write around that i don't know, because it is pressure partly by eddie stefan and so it might be that he cannot hear everything the people are sayingpe to him. maybe people will be sensitive to needing to protect her speaker communicate and wait might be something else i would love for you to talk about that,

i don't know. and that is balanced by the fact it is clear, that when he is asked, you know the moments i'm talking about when he is asked, who made you this way and what made you this way. and he says. >> he said the state and he believes absolutely expletives advice was that israel target is the state. he could not have been more clear about what his critique was and what he did when he did. and people just could not hear it and mostly white people but not only white people they just did not want to hear his challenge it, to thehe system tt was making the promise that >> is a refuses to or mothers performative or genuine is that i don't know being interrogated when the question is so singular, that he is unwavering

in termssa of saying this thanky guess he did poorly sometimes that i don't know when with a suspect is that they could not hear the don't know that the speculation. and he also, he was very good at refusing to answer questions that he did not want to answer. would one point, when he was captured in his interrogated, hit a certain point he just clamps up. and he decides of not answer any of your questions and he uses silence and this is after he had been released and he had been living with five years of enforced silence. in the knees arrested for this act of violence is interrogated by this point, he knows the power of silence. and he knows how powerful it is an answer some questions and then he decides he is done cases

are not goingso to answer any me questions itself h if somebody s absolutely able to use silence use it is very strategic way predict metaphysically response because evincing this statement is reasonably we much maybe related to the way he was honest about the way w that he manufactured the weapons used the murder. he takes some of that up from being in the prison also in just these what part of the book is like will linger to the light of presents as a cited rehabilitation. in the way in which you use this case as an example of that by. and it's really terrific. can we talk about the moment the boo then presentation and in te books there chapters were you think about people wanting to

know why did you do this. he and you took a little about we don't know why and how the book. and maybe even what could you say a little bit about that as it relates to the complexity. >> yes and so the story has been told in somee ways for almost 20 years. in these quote stewart descended in using the insanity defense. and it was not the first case in the united states but it is one of the first, is extremely novel. in freeman's case actually said the precedents for the use of the defense in new york state. so freeman's case is what went it was written about very often is been written about in the context of the family insanity defense and legal history and theea reason that the insanity e is so important, is that it is the question of why, why did he

kill and it answers the question in a way that was very comforting. and it's what well if you are likely that is depending on the prison, and the reason is been challenge, is very comforting to hear the person who committed this act of violence is simply irrational in every possible way, which is what he was arguing. this story has been brought forward as a why kind of a story. everybody wanted to know in the moment, and an infield infiltrated into the storytelling over that case is why did he kill. he told us why. he told us why. and there was no mystery. so one of the things that i did in the book was to say the real mystery is why people kept asking why. the real mystery is why they couldn't hear the answers was so clear and repeated and very

straightforward. why did they keep asking why. and that to me, that was the meat of the second half of the book. how people got so psychologically invested in specific explanations and for the crimes when the real story and the real explanation was right there on thehe table. so we kind of flipped the switch in the part of the book that you are referring to go from you know why did he kill which was a question that everybody's been asking for 170 years to why did you keep asking the question predict when they ask about the went also, and when people could not hear the why freeman gave them, over and over, so they just will the more they couldn't hear it the more they would have to ask the question again and again.

and they started moving to questions of what in the way that you put it earlier in our conversation earlier was what was say it was a lunatic and was he a innately violent. what was he and more ways of avoidance of hearing what he was actuallyrt saying. >> private you do in the project relatinghi to this, incapacity o hear like a practice up not hearing. that's really part of the book is really a confrontation with the c incapacity to witness ando stay with divulging these talks about we must try to bury it part of the american idea might be that were not very good at trying to bury it pretty and you walk throughst marcus through, diligence when he gets out of prison in terms of the first trying to get record says that he goes to magistrate any goes

to try to get a haircut to clean up any goes to try to get a job as a farmhand. there's this real this president comes out of prison and is disoriented andth disoriented ad went even did have 15 usually comes out five years later in the town is changed, is lost most of his hearing, and yet he has is gotta deliberateness about trying to build a life as a citizen, as complicated as that could become hery is trying to do right having a citizen one of the acts this to say that about to be paid for my labor. any goes through all of these processes and so is amazing the book to have you just suppose that diligence. against this larger resisted narrative of either it is craziness or some manifestation of that really terrible idea about people are somehow subhuman less than human.

there is this will across the project there's this persistence on our incapacity to bear the answer there iswe no answer to why. and the answer is that state and he said it was a state. and can we talk then about you say something about over the responses from his family and from the black community because that's another part of this complexity of the story. and again in will say for anyby listening online, that part of what i think of the accomplishment of the book is how you really balance so beautifully, the difficult story to tell. not difficult because of what only because of the violence part of it but difficult because of how complicated the interlocking parts of it are say something about his family and

the black community's response. >> to answer your question i will go to my undulate davis itself angela davis very helpful for me in writing this book, where she lamented frederick douglass did not take up the beginnings of labor as a major part in frederick douglass had little bit to say about freeman that much. angela davis, basically look at the essay wishing that he had taken it up as a major cause when conflict labor practices were in their infancy by which he meant that post- civil war. she was on the south but really understand that actually conflict labor began new york state which was where frederick was living in the fact that he never took it up is a little morere astonishing.

if we are thinking from our perspective. one of the things the feeling this book is really answering the question of why was it not a major rally and a cry for amazing people,en brilliant geniuses like frederick douglass and harriet tubman who lives number angela number 2 miles away from the auburn state prison for the second half of her life in the 1850s, through her passing in 1913. so why wasn't there for organizing is the presence and to answer your question about his family. his family love him and they really loved him that was really clear. and some members of the family testified on his behalf enforce which was an extremely brave thing to do and some of them suffered enormous white retribution for their testimony. i want to really honor their

courage in justifying in behalf of william friedman some of that that that. and some of them did not. and some of the members of the family and the community had difficulty hearing his challenge and for some of the same reasons the way people dead which was they were also part of an economic system. they were also in embedded in auburn for the reason was that of course with a will why did it frederick douglass not wise rise up against the beginnings of conflict labor pretty and really important answer is there was no way to know from the perspective especially the mid- 19th century, what it was going to turn into. there was no way to know and imagine mass racialized incarceration. and black people were

disproportionately incarcerated in the state prison during freeman's lifetime but the actual numbers were small relatively small. and the more people were upset about it at the time there were people who look at that at the time but there was no way to imagine 150 years into the future, with mass racialized incarceration so that absence of clairvoyance of any base bargain i'm certainly not clairvoyant that they were either. they were embedded in their own moment pretty they were embedded in the same pricing capitalism in the same economic structures as everybody else. swiss family and his community are very mixed. but i think what i just want to end up withmi is that the women his family in particular, rally behind him and his mother rally behind him, and his sister-in-law who was his closest friend, rally behind him

and his sister-in-law, she testified in his behalf. in court and she had a very hard time doing that but she did it. >> i am' so glad you mentioned his mother and hish sister-in-lw because they both expressed this incredible care and the suffrage and suffered mightily for it. i would also say that indeed you talk about his family care for him there's this moment before you talk about of course after he submitted thesede murders, te white community almost into being in a mob standing right hand they both wanted to know why well also wanting to know to have extralegal justice against him. his family members wanted to know how he is now he's being treated. soso that even with this complexity that you just

described. the incrediblee tenderness ungrateful to have in the book if i could extended to when you were talking when think that you showcase in the book is that people the black community were advocating the things that were advocating for, schools, voting rights, and you said this thing which i hadad not thought of before because i'm not a victorian of this era. he said something something really worth highlighting that k activists in new york in the 1820s and 30s and 40s. they were imagine it the opportunity to be able to defend oneself before a jury. it would've been the kind of an incredible act of position of citizenship. and the prison being against the prison, would not necessarily seem to be high in the list because they're actually trying to think about the opportunity

to actually be like be able to defend oneself which would be the next step in the right so these are complicated landscapes. >> yes i'm glad you brought up then question of what was important to the black communities. if they were not rallying against this conflict labor, what was important to them is exactly what youe just said. they were rallying around voting and rallying around the rights of citizenship including the right to a fair trial. they were rallying around theirr own economic development and rallying against southern slavery because of course is all in the wakeas of northern slavey and this was after the northern slavery. very recently after the northern slavery. in organizing against southern slavery and they were raising their communities and building churches that they were creating socialg concepts and doing all f these important things.

... urgency in the moment of all of these political projects, we can understand better why, why, why convict leasing seemed not as important at the time, except it was really important to william freeman and he was raising this this challenge. and we should understand him in that way as as somewhat prescient. you know, he he he was not imagining the future. he was making this very simple claim. and i think it's very simple claim. its power it was in its simplicity think he wants wages for his work. he never even said it with the prison to close for he never said this prison system is inherently wrong and it should bed abolished. he never said that they never said i want other people to be paid.

he just wanted his pay that he deserved for his work. that is a very narrow claim. i think a lot of it is forced, derived from the fact it is so narrow and so undeniable. how can you look someone in the eye and say no, you did not deserve for your five years of labor. the force was in the narrowness of the claim. >> beautifully said. we have a couple of minutes. let's see if their questions in the audience. people have to ask questions. i could talk all night. thank you for waiting until the microphone makes her way around. >> should i stand? >> no. okay, i won't then. [laughter] thank you so much for that talk.

the book sounds awesome it's important or not we bring the story of convict leasing into the north but also the pathology rising of black criminality will the story that predated not just the 20th century but the civil war. it's very important work. i did have a question and more context driven question. you kind of alluded to this in your talk. and i'm sure in the book against deeper treatment. but the penitentiary was at the center of national and transatlantic conversation about prison reform. you were kind of highlighting, i don't know if it was a tension with the process of profit driven component of the prison.

but, one of the things i was curious about was the fact albert was a factory or a series of factories was its relationship to others in the north as well as the south. regarding the economic functions of it. others was the system beyond the disciplinary component was the economic system also exported to other places. i have done work on maryland. they also had profit driven. would you describe the other prison systems have been convict leasing as well? thank you so much for that. yes, the auburn system was very quickly exported and duplicated. it was a duplicated almost instantly and exported across theos north. across the united states. across the ocean and europe.

these other prisons that had similar goals, similar economic goals, similar structures were all imitatingng auburn. o give you a single example, san quentin was built on the auburn model. this was completely explicit. absolute delivered. one of the reason there were tourists at the auburn state present was because people were so interested in the system. an interest in replicating it. there wereho private tourists wo came to gok. there were also many, many official envoys. so to tocqueville came to auburn. eric came to martin. many people are coming in order to assess the system and make recommendations on whether it should be replicated. auburn was ground zero.

but it very quickly spread. all of the other systems we know about that have similar models are all in direct relationship in a directed progeny of auburn. [inaudible] clicks robin, thanks for the great talk. i was wondering if you could compare this for-profit with the later development of thee convt lease system and postwar south? sure, sure. that has done really important work on this -- exactly this comparison. southern, leasing practices as an adjustment on the pre-civil war northern practices that originated at auburn.

for her, bert thompson the similarities are much more significant than the differences. andvi there are important differences. southern opposed civil war is not primarily their important differences but thompson's argument is the similarities ind the continuities are more important than the differences. and i agree with that. and i would also add is that the lines of influence are explicit and direct. post- civil war south was adapting processes that were innovated in the north. and ist will slip backwards to y there's is really wonderful books in the post- civil war south. they have produced so much knowledge that is so important. of post- civil war convict leasing so vividly it has had

excellent books has had the inadvertent effect of suggesting that is the whole story. in fact, these wonderful books are starting the story in the middle. the story they tell is important. it's starting the story in the middle. and by starting the story with the civil war at the end of the civil war go but what is happening inadvertently in these excellent books have let the north off the hook. one of the things i want to accomplish in this challenge is to put the north back on the hook. >> a saw question of her here. >> i just wanted to ask state i am for for-profit prisons now. >> absolute there are. there are. i'm started to say more?

>> no do they read the same way? >> yes and no. different states have different laws. so, new york state they're still in prison force manufacturing. in one thing i want to state really clearly auburn was never private prison. now days was a present for profit lease it was a private prison. one of the arguments i really want to make built for the purpose of generating profit. that's not this is still a private prison. so absolutely their profits in prison today. it's safe to say how that manifests. in new york state there are no longer -- there is no longer a partnership with private companies. so, new york state you do not have the same convict leasing that william freeman screws his

work is being leased by private companies. now today in new york state there's massive manufacturing. n new york state's materials that are then sold only to the state itself. things like license plates for example. in some ways is still forced labor.r. that working to and forced labor in prisons in new york state. >> they do get paid. they get paid in new york state. by the with her plenty of incarcerated people in the united states to get paid nothing. they get forced labor and do nothing. many, many states. in new york state people and persons are paid for their work. but they are vastly underpaid.

so for example the men who make license plates in auburn today they get paid 65 cents an hour for this is not a living wage. we need to know and remember that will eat freeman wanted wages but wanted fair wages. that's not whate they had in new york state today. and in new york state. cooks we have to stop soon. but you make appoints in the book of talking about that even in the 1840s there were states that paid prisoners. new york was not one of them. and indeed when he left after five years they gave him $2. you talk about the kind of social pressure that produce that modest compensation to

leaving. who were we should stop soon because we are at about an hour. but we could take two more questions. and then we have one upfront, okay. >> in your talk you mentioned willie freeman using humor for humanity. can you offer any particular examples of how he in these ways? >> yes, yes, what he did was while he was in one of these factories what he wouldld do is make silly faces and called other prisoners to laugh. because they did look at each other's faces. they were not permitted too but of course they did, do it. this was not just him. this was a game a lot of prisoners played. they tried to make each other laugh. it was a very humanizing game but also very dangerous game.

he was caught and whipped before. he was whipped multiple times. one time he danced, dancing was also forbidden. he was dancing and whipped for that. that's not humorous. those are examples of ways he's claimed his humanity and resistt the demilitarization of the system. this certain dangerous and collegiate acts. >> it reminds us again, that by everyone's description playful and vibrant 15 years old. got in trouble in ways young peopleow do. you went into prison and i know you've done a lot of work of cautioning us against the idea of innocence and youth. except that in that case of black people, black boys and girls, young black people they do not get the same kind of

innocence. he came out his 21 or 22 changed and made this case about a payment about recompense he wase a young person. he was a young person making thisay astute saying close argument. i think also adds to the clarity of your insight about how important the claim was. >> yes he was really young. in a lot of ways he acted like a teenager. and including some of his bravery and bravado i associate with teenagers. >> will take over question. >> owes just curious what had to say. and also, was there anybody in the press that grasped the importance of freeman saying this was a mistake?

yes, yes. waltth whitman and horace were interested in this part from the perspective of capitol punishment. commented on extensively at multiple columns he spoke about it as part -- use against capitol punishment. he was arguing against that andy clay's cases. it's really interesting. he wrote one column in which she really recognize the challenge. and he really backed it up in a lot of ways. and then all the other cool lord william freedman he did do that at all. it was a little painful because he heard it and then he didn't. why did here in one moment you

didn't ask about james mccue and i will answer for them to pretty commented on the case because he was furious at william henry stewart. james smith very clearly recognize the racism in the defense of freeman and he was absently furious at him for a that. >> part of the excellence of thisis book i will say again is the way in which student gavin the entanglements of what it is to think about race and racial legacy and american culture. one is building a class of setting the complexity baldwin is a fire next time. all of these books that ask any leader to figure out how do you find yourr place in the story? i think you could say your book

would be there. i just want to congratulate you and thank you, thank you for sharing itt with us. what phenomenal work. >> thank you so much. that means the world to me. i'm very touched that you would say that. thank you so much and thank you all for being a part of this conversation. [applause] >> thank you robin bernstein kevin quashie. this is what we hope to do with the society. think about the past and all of its complexity and residence for its own day. you've done that marvelously. thank you. ♪ american history tv saturdays on c-span2 exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 7:00 p.m. eastern watch

american history tv series historic presidential elections what made these elections historic? was the pivotal impact of that each lasting impact. 1932 during the great depression democratic governor newark roosevelt unseated herbert hoover in a landslide in both the popular vote and the electoral college. then 8:00 p.m. eastern on lectures in history, also because professor mike discusses his interpretations of the vietnam war when it comes to questions about the necessity of the conflict and whether it was winnable for the united states for 9:30 p.m. eastern on the presidency from her franklin d roosevelt library director paul sparrow author of the book awakening the spirit of america, casper fdr wartime philosophical struggle with the famed aviator charles lindbergh's were two pallets of isolationism. exploring the american story prewash american history tv saturdays on cspan2 and find a full schedule and your program guide watch online

anytime@c-span.org/history. ♪ loosing through the programs on c-span's easy plates he spent radio listen to "washington journal" daily at 7:00 a.m. eastern part important public affairs events throughout the day weekdays catch washington today. listen to see spent any time just tell your smart speaker plates he spent radio. c-span, powered by cable. since 1979 in partnership with the cable industry c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress. from the house and senate floors, two congressional hearings, party briefings and committee meetings c-span will give you a pharmacy to how issues are debated and decided with no commentary. no interruptions and completely